Unlimited Blade Works: The Guide to the Ultimate Paladin/Sorcerer Multiclass

[Spiritchaser]

I honestly believe it's not intended as possible to effectively strike with both ends of a staff when wielding it in one hand. It just defies common sense.

I doubt he would have allowed this, though I've never asked him. I probably wouldn't either, though I've never been asked. intended or not it's pretty daft

That said, if the question was: I can have a staff and shield on my sorcadin, doing 1d6 damage, but can I carve it so that it at least looks like a double sword or something?

My response would be; "you could try that... But before you do I might mention that you've heard rumors about artisans who can craft swords into foci. Ask around sometime."

There is very little functional difference between a 1 handed 1d6 staff (not using PAM, which, lets face it, there isn't really room for in most builds anyway and quickened GFB is usually better) and a one handed 1d6 sword. It's almost purely style, and I'm very unlikely to tromp on style.

The only question that arises in my mind is with regards to one handed Dex swords.

[Saiga]

So. Nothing RAW then (Quarterstaves aren't Arcane Foci by RAW, neither are specially crafted swords, and ignoring that detail certainly isn't RAW).

[Arkhios]

I doubt he would have allowed this, though I've never asked him. I probably wouldn't either, though I've never been asked. intended or not it's pretty daft

That said, if the question was: I can have a staff and shield on my sorcadin, doing 1d6 damage, but can I carve it so that it at least looks like a double sword or something?

My response would be; "you could try that... But before you do I might mention that you've heard rumors about artisans who can craft swords into foci. Ask around sometime."

There is very little functional difference between a 1 handed 1d6 staff (not using PAM, which, lets face it, there isn't really room for in most builds anyway and quickened GFB is usually better) and a one handed 1d6 sword. It's almost purely style, and I'm very unlikely to tromp on style.

The only question that arises in my mind is with regards to one handed Dex swords.

Yeah, I might let a PC train to use any weapon as focus. That is, using the same 250 downtime days as it takes to train and learn a tool proficiency and many other things. But allow it from the get-go? Never.

[Spiritchaser]

So. Nothing RAW then (Quarterstaves aren't Arcane Foci by RAW, neither are specially crafted swords, and ignoring that detail certainly isn't RAW).

quarterstaves are not arcane foci, however, arcane foci staves are quarterstaves.

so, yes, there is that RAW solution. Stylistically offensive (ergo focus swords) but legit.

EDIT: DMG page 140 for reference states: "Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff"

[Saiga]

Oh, thank you! I had checked the PHB but didn't think the DMG would have anything to say on it.

Edit: argggh, that still only applies to magic items. I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm just wondering if this build would be okay with the most pedantic, RAW abiding DM I run into it.

[Spiritchaser]

Oh, thank you! I had checked the PHB but didn't think the DMG would have anything to say on it.

Edit: argggh, that still only applies to magic items. I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm just wondering if this build would be okay with the most pedantic, RAW abiding DM I run into it.

It's a general statement with nothing specific to contrevene it...

For whatever it's worth there's a sage advice on it... though I appreciate that if the text in the DMG isn't compelling enough, the sage advice isn't likely to be.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/20...taff-in-melee/

[Saiga]

It's specific to staves as a category of magic items, though. It makes no link either way to the PHB stave as an arcane focus.

I'm aware of the intent, I'm just annoyed tgat the rules don't say this.

[Spiritchaser]

It's specific to staves as a category of magic items, though. It makes no link either way to the PHB stave as an arcane focus.

I'm aware of the intent, I'm just annoyed tgat the rules don't say this.

Yes, it could be clearer...

I remember sifting through tomes of legalese and errata with very precise rules in Star Fleet battles and that was too far the other way

You'd think there would be a happy middle ground

[Degwerks]

Here's another Sage Advice answer
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/11/focus-staff/

[Spiritchaser]

Here's another Sage Advice answer
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/11/focus-staff/

actually that one might be a bit better.

I think the intent was to allow wizards to bash things with their staves, and certainly not to allow sorcadins to weild foci and shield...

ah well

[Mahl Arannis]

See, mine is mostly control / support.
That's the issue that I have with this guide. It takes one possible role with one possible build and assumes everyone will do the same.
Maybe that's one of the options, but that shouldn't comprise the entire guide.

For reference, here's one of the Sorcadins that I have played:

Spoiler

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Here's what I did, copy/pasted from a text file I had. We got a free feat at level 1, I took war caster right away. You'd have to adjust the cantrips and lvl1 pally spells to account for not raising Cha at 6.

27 pts
Str 13(5) - or 10 if allowed
Dex 15(9)+1=16
Con 13(5)+1= 14
Int 8
Wis 9(1) - or 12 if 10str allowed
Cha 14(7)+2= 16

Half Elf: darkvision, fey ancestry, skill versatility (Stealth and Investigation), languages (common, elvish, +one)
Urban Bounty Hunter: Insight & Perception (instead of Stealth), thieves' tools, one instrument or gaming set, clothes, pouch with 20gp
Free feat: War Caster

1. paladin 1 of Tymora
- 10+con HP each level
- equipment: one martial weapon (rapier or scimitar) & a shield, one simple weapon (dagger), explorer's pack, studded leather armor, holy symbol // thieves' tools, gaming set (dice), clothes, pouch with 20gp
- divine sense, lay on hands
- Proficiencies:
--- all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields
--- Wisdom and Charisma saves
--- thieves' tools, one gaming set (dice), acrobatics, insight, investigation, perception, persuasion, stealth

2. sorcerer 1 favored soul of Tymora (Trickery)
- d6+con HP each level
- chosen of the gods
- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
- spells: charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep (later swap)

3. p2
- defense style, spellcasting, divine smite
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // shield, sleep

4. s2
- font of magic
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, sleep

5. s3
- metamagic: quicken & twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield, (sleep swapped for web)
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web

6. s4
- ASI (+2cha = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion,ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, suggestion, web

7. s5
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, (suggestion swapped for fly), web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fly, haste

8. s6
- extra attack
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste

9. s7
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // wall of fire

10. s8
- ASI (+2dex = 18)
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, fire bolt, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire

11. s9
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, command, cure wounds, divine favor, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster

12. s10
- metamagic: heightened, quicken, twinned
- current spells:
--- cantrips: booming blade, greenflame blade, mage hand, minor illusion, ray of frost
--- level 1: bless, cure wounds, divine favor, searing smite, shield of faith // charm person, disguise self // chromatic orb, shield
--- level 2: mirror image, pass without trace // hold person, web
--- level 3: blink, dispel magic // fireball, fly, haste
--- level 4: dimension door, polymorph // greater invisibility, wall of fire
--- level 5: dominate person, modify memory // hold monster, wall of stone

I'm actually looking at building something similar, I think.
I've been looking through the Sorcadin Guide and I was very interested in DBZ and Corran's takes on DEX-based Sorcadins. I rolled up a level 1 Half-Elf Paladin with a Criminal/Spy background. Ability Scores rolled well with 13, 18, 14, 8, 13, and 15. Half-Elf racials boosted my scores to 13, 19, 15, 8, 13, 17 (ugh, so many odd numbers...). Proficiencies are in Acrobatics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Persuasion, and Stealth. I will likely switch to Sorcerer at clvl3. I'm likely going with Defense fighting style (unless I go Draconic; then I will remove all armor and then Dueling is better).

I see a lot of love for Draconic (Fire) sorcerous origin for buffing GFB and BB but Draconic Resilience AC buff requires the wearing of no armor and Defense fighting style requires the wearing of armor. So it seems that wearing no armor and instead choosing Dueling fighting style would work best. Unless I'm missing something.

The original Favored Soul sorcerous origin (extra attack) with the Trickery Domain looks great with no big downsides. It looks like it plays well with the DEX-build. How does it stack up with the new Favored Soul? I haven't seen many in the guide comment on it. I know that the new one doesn't offer the Extra Attack but it does offer Expertise in CHA-based skills.

And then there is Shadow sorcerous origin. This looks crazy-nice as a DEX-based character, too.

I guess I'm just looking for a little more specific advice on this build. I think I will likely go Defence fighting style/old-school Favored Soul with Trickery domain.

Unless you feel there is a better option.

[Alezaire]

I just want to check something (and I apologise if this has already been covered):
This guide strongly recommends the Mirror Image spell even with only 8 DEX. I'm quite new to D&D so I am just wondering if basically we are disregarding the part of the spell which states that a duplicate's AC is 10+ DEX Mod (at 8 DEX this would make the AC 9 right?) because the spell is strong enough without needing the duplicates to survive an attack. Is that correct? Could anyone explain this to me in more detail. Thanks

[rbstr]

I just want to check something (and I apologise if this has already been covered):
This guide strongly recommends the Mirror Image spell even with only 8 DEX. I'm quite new to D&D so I am just wondering if basically we are disregarding the part of the spell which states that a duplicate's AC is 10+ DEX Mod (at 8 DEX this would make the AC 9 right?) because the spell is strong enough without needing the duplicates to survive an attack. Is that correct? Could anyone explain this to me in more detail. Thanks

Basically yeah, in situations where you'd use Mirror Image you pretty much just care that it didn't hit you, regardless of losing the image.
You wouldn't use it on mooks and things with a good chance of missing your AC. It's for fighting the baddies with high attack bonuses and high damage.

Or if you really just can't afford to get hit. Other than getting far enough away they simply can't attack you it's as good as it gets until images get popped.

[Dradougon]

This is the most awesome multi class I have ever seen. I always wanted to do it but was always told that I couldn't because I would lose Paladin class features upon taking a new class.

[Arkhios]

This is the most awesome multi class I have ever seen. I always wanted to do it but was always told that I couldn't because I would lose Paladin class features upon taking a new class.

Who told you that? Because there's no basis for such a claim. Nowhere in the books does it say a paladin that takes a level in another class would lose any paladin features.

Sounds like the someone who did is an ass.

[Gignere]

Who told you that? Because there's no basis for such a claim. Nowhere in the books does it say a paladin that takes a level in another class would lose any paladin features.

Sounds like the someone who did is an ass.

This was the case in 3.X and prior, paladins that took levels in other classes could never go back. So either house rule by nostalgic DM or a carry over because DM is mixing editions.

[Saiga]

Or DM's interpretation. Multiclassing is an optional rule, and fluff wise I can see some classes feeling inappropriate to multiclass out of or dip (Warlock and Paladin being the prime examples).

But I don't like multiclassing being allowed to only some classes. If your DM doesn't like the flavour of it, just don't use multi-classing.

[Arkhios]

This was the case in 3.X and prior, paladins that took levels in other classes could never go back.

Oh, I know that, but since this is 5e forum I kinda assumed people would refrain from talking about anything but.

Even so, being unable to go back ≠ lose all class features.

[Spiritchaser]

Oh, I know that, but since this is 5e forum I kinda assumed people would refrain from talking about anything but.

I missed everything between 2 and 5. Sounds like maybe that was a good thing.

I can see a devotion paladin who takes fiendlock levels would have to resolve some very serious issues before going back to paladin, but I can't see making a character irredeemable by fiat. It's at least mostly up to the player to decide if the character is beyond redemption.

That said, looking back on it, the last time I DM'd a warlock trying to redeem himself I did a poor job of it, so I can see how it's easy to get wrong.

[Dradougon]

Who told you that? Because there's no basis for such a claim. Nowhere in the books does it say a paladin that takes a level in another class would lose any paladin features.

Sounds like the someone who did is an ass.

I agree. However I went with my DM. Mainly due to not being able to explain how my righteous paladin woke up with phenomenal cosmic powers that would for all purpose look like witchcraft, possession, or some other heretical action. All of which would ultimately cast him out of of the holy order.

Can anyone see a story that could?

[Arkhios]

I agree. However I went with my DM. Mainly due to not being able to explain how my righteous paladin woke up with phenomenal cosmic powers that would for all purpose look like witchcraft, possession, or some other heretical action. All of which would ultimately cast him out of of the holy order.

Can anyone see a story that could?

Sorcerous abilities spontaneously manifesting themselves are among the easiest to explain for anyone: it's in your blood, a heritage; ancestral or relatively recent. Something that you've always had but which had not manifested until some remarkable event (such as maybe going to the brink of death which is pretty common for any adventurer).

TL;DR: Sorcerer isn't something you have trained to become. It is who you are.

[Elric VIII]

I agree. However I went with my DM. Mainly due to not being able to explain how my righteous paladin woke up with phenomenal cosmic powers that would for all purpose look like witchcraft, possession, or some other heretical action. All of which would ultimately cast him out of of the holy order.

Can anyone see a story that could?

If you go for Favored Soul sorcerer you were literally so Paladin-y that a deity gave you more magic. Not to mention that Spirit Guardians is super cool on a Paladin (or really anyone, I love that spell).

[Chugger]

Sorcerous abilities spontaneously manifesting themselves are among the easiest to explain for anyone: it's in your blood, a heritage; ancestral or relatively recent. Something that you've always had but which had not manifested until some remarkable event (such as maybe going to the brink of death which is pretty common for any adventurer).

TL;DR: Sorcerer isn't something you have trained to become. It is who you are.

Pals these days aren't all super holy super strict - I would think that if a young Pal had a special dream where their holy god told them that ancient secret access to magic that lies deep in the young Pal's soul is going to be awakened, to give him/her a different and possibly better way to fight the good fight - that would be fine. Maybe not with older paladin styles that were very restrictive, but again, that old model has been thrown out in 5e. Except maybe devotion - maybe. Even that seems to have some wiggle room.

(edit, in other words your sorc powers aren't witchy - they're holy - they're a special line of power that your holy god is helping you access and is down with it - that should be fine)

[Saiga]

And if you'd rather be a Draconic Sorceror instead of a Favoured Soul, Bahamut could be your god... that is probably going to be my fluff when I make a Sorcadin (might go with Stone if it is in Xanathar's).

Really, any sorcerous origin could be made to fit an existing god to get the favoured soul feel on any subclass.

[Chugger]

I'm tempted to try a sorcadin, though I'm not sure I have the patience to go 6 or 7 lvls into pal and then start the sorc stuff. I'm more interested in going pal 2/sorc 18 - and will probably never get to high levels. Maybe. But probably not.

I'm looking at lvl 5 when I'd be pal2/sorc3. I have no extra attack - except I can Twin booming bland and possibly green flame blade, if the DM reads how it targets in a generous way. If not I can Quicken one and use one or the other as a main attack - or quicken some other spell and gfb the main attack. I could even quicken one and then twin in the same turn, if I read it correctly, but I'd be draining spell points really fast. If all 3 hit and I had slots to DS on each hit, that'd hit hard for one big burst round.

And then I could bb or gfb.

Do any of you have experience doing this? I think what I have to do is write one down, get out my dice, and just play through some sample encounters and see how it works - see if I like the mechanics of it.

I like the idea of getting the sorc stuff earlier and faster. Of course I'd miss the aura and some of the other great Pal abilities and powers that come after level 2, but I'd have more access to amazing Sor spells. Any thought or help would be much appreciated.

[Saiga]

GFB can't be twinned per tweets from Crawford, if your DM is one to follow those.

But the tactic of twinned Booming Blade + quickened GFB in one turn is really potent. I also thought about doing that with a DS on each successful hit for maximum burst.

I think I'm in agreement on preferring Pala 2 + Sorc 18. It just sounds so appealing (comes online faster, more sorcery points and spell slots), but I may be overestimating how tough it is in melee with lower hit points, no aura and no extra attack. Feels much more 'Gish' though.

[rokko17]

Just a small update. I had a lot of help from the board when making this character. We rolled stats so I was able to do more than a point buy would let me. Almost level 5 and so far a lot of fun. We have had a few party members have to drop out for a few months so I may have to go more pal than sorc. Most fun so far was wild magic. I know draconic would be better with a rapier dex build but for flavor and my char background, I went wild magic. Only surged a few times due to a lot of melee.

Fighting orcs and down to the war captain. I cast shield and surge. BOOM...I am now a sheep. ugh...but wait. I am a paladin so I keep attacking using deer stats for bite. Bit the first round and drew some blood. Thank God he attacked someone else. Second round a natural 20 and double damage. Bam! down he goes. Lots of laughs and set the stage for cringing the next time there is a surge. I know the board is optimization but wild magic is a lot of fun so far.

After I level to pal2/sorc3 I'll be back with some questions when I decide what the party needs. I know it will get tougher as I hit mid levels but this build gives me a lot of options


Side note: Anyone have a good mini they use? Hard to find a good rapier mini that isn't a swashbuckler.

[8wGremlin]

Side note: Anyone have a good mini they use? Hard to find a good rapier mini that isn't a swashbuckler.

I tend to use https://www.heroforge.com/ to build unique mini's they tend to be a bit pricy, but then you are getting a custom built mini.

They are good and they retain the paint well.
Here is one I printed and painted

Spoiler: Smith - Fighter/Rev Ranger

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[Chugger]

GFB can't be twinned per tweets from Crawford, if your DM is one to follow those.

But the tactic of twinned Booming Blade + quickened GFB in one turn is really potent. I also thought about doing that with a DS on each successful hit for maximum burst.

I think I'm in agreement on preferring Pala 2 + Sorc 18. It just sounds so appealing (comes online faster, more sorcery points and spell slots), but I may be overestimating how tough it is in melee with lower hit points, no aura and no extra attack. Feels much more 'Gish' though.

Thanks. What I'm weighing is my dependency on twinning and quickening - and how, especially until I get more sor pts and slots - I'm going to be limited.

The first big change will be pal 2 sorc 5 - because then I can toss a lvl 3 spell. I like the flexibility of being able to melee when that makes sense - do potentially big bursts on a creature - or cast a spell if that makes sense. And I guess just using 1 GFB on paired badguys is okay if I can't afford to twin or quicken gfb.

[Saiga]

I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure GFB with secondary damage edges out Extra Attack unless you've got some GWM or something applied to those hits.

The +Fire damage from Draconic Sorcery also helps when it comes online (which is the same level a Pala 5/Sorc 3 gets Metamagic + Extra Attack, so it seems on par).

I wish there were a dragon type that gave a bonus to Thunder damage instead of Lightning.