League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[Forum Explorer]

In other news, Riot has officially announced pro players are going to get 10 bans in a snake style pick/ban phase!

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/new...medium=twitter

This is such a good change. I've been saying for over a year they should go to a different ban system.

This makes the entire pick/ban phase so much more strategic with the ability to put down more bans after picks have gone down, it lets them try to zero in on where they think their opponent is going with their team comp rather than just blindly banning OPs. Or of course opens up possibilities of leaving a champion with a hard counter up until their last initial pick, then banning the counter before they can pick it.

Sadly non-pro play isn't changing yet, and they're still 'assessing' it, so they may even go to a completely different style of pick/ban for non-pro play (also one of the Rioters has made a post stating that they won't change the pick bans until everybody is on the new client).

I heard the biggest concern for non-pro play was keeping the time down before the game actually starts.

[lord_khaine]

That is indeed really good news. It will make it much easier to keep the power picks out of the game, and hopefully leading to a bigger champion diversity. Im really looking forward to see how it turn out.

[JKTrickster]

I know Aatrox is currently being reworked, but doesn't his current kit + ignite make him a good counter top lane to Camille?

I mean he'll die to almost anything else, but I'm pretty sure if you play safe before level 2, you come out ahead.

[thracian]

I haven't played enough Aatrox or Camille to have a solid read on either of them right now. I also haven't played against any good Camille or Aatrox players in lane, at all. As such, I don't actually have a good judge of their respective play patterns into each other.

Caveats aside, my gut says that regardless of how the lane goes, Camille is so much stronger outside of 1v1 laning that it doesn't really matter.

[Olinser]

I heard the biggest concern for non-pro play was keeping the time down before the game actually starts.

Sure but there are plenty of ways to cut down on total time, they just need to pick one and roll with it.

[lord_khaine]

Im honestly not even certain that many bans are needed for non-pro play. Its not like normal players are going to need it for anything besides banning out the flavor of the month, or the hard counter to their laning pick.
Its a lot more relevant in pro play where we might now see more of the a- and b-list champions in play. Instead of the same 5-10 picks cycling in and out.

[Olinser]

Im honestly not even certain that many bans are needed for non-pro play. Its not like normal players are going to need it for anything besides banning out the flavor of the month, or the hard counter to their laning pick.
Its a lot more relevant in pro play where we might now see more of the a- and b-list champions in play. Instead of the same 5-10 picks cycling in and out.

Far more relevant than increased bans is the LOCATION of the bans.

I agree, just adding in a couple more blind bans at the start is pointless. You'd just end up with the OP champions perma-banned.

But adding in bans after some picks have been locked in makes the couple extra bans much more relevant and strategic, and focused on roles that haven't been picked yet. Now you're not just blind banning OPs, now you're looking to ban counter-picks against your champs or champs that have good synergy with their lock ins.

[Dienekes]

Im honestly not even certain that many bans are needed for non-pro play. Its not like normal players are going to need it for anything besides banning out the flavor of the month, or the hard counter to their laning pick.
Its a lot more relevant in pro play where we might now see more of the a- and b-list champions in play. Instead of the same 5-10 picks cycling in and out.

Maybe, but I can say for certain, I would have appreciated the option to never having to play against an Illaoi ever again. That would have been great.

Mind you, they most definitely should not try to cater to me, since I don't even play on Summoner's Rift anymore. But still, if I should ever go back, the option to never deal with Illaoi would be nice.

[JKTrickster]

I haven't played enough Aatrox or Camille to have a solid read on either of them right now. I also haven't played against any good Camille or Aatrox players in lane, at all. As such, I don't actually have a good judge of their respective play patterns into each other.

Caveats aside, my gut says that regardless of how the lane goes, Camille is so much stronger outside of 1v1 laning that it doesn't really matter.

I mean so much stronger? Really?

Camille isn't that useful at full on 5 v 5 team fights. She can get a pick though which is more than Aatrox can say.

[mrcarter11]

I mean so much stronger? Really?

Camille isn't that useful at full on 5 v 5 team fights. She can get a pick though which is more than Aatrox can say.

If I had the choice of a normal aatrox or a camille that could only use her e and r, I would still take the camille 90% of the time.

[Forum Explorer]

Im honestly not even certain that many bans are needed for non-pro play. Its not like normal players are going to need it for anything besides banning out the flavor of the month, or the hard counter to their laning pick.
Its a lot more relevant in pro play where we might now see more of the a- and b-list champions in play. Instead of the same 5-10 picks cycling in and out.

That's true, on the other hand, it does mean everyone gets a ban, so you get no more complaints of "This is why you should've banned x", which is well worth the price of admission in my opinion.

[Qwertystop]

That's true, on the other hand, it does mean everyone gets a ban, so you get no more complaints of "This is why you should've banned x", which is well worth the price of admission in my opinion.

You'll still get those. After all, what if I think there's two different champs that absolutely must be banned, and nobody bans the second one?

[Forum Explorer]

You'll still get those. After all, what if I think there's two different champs that absolutely must be banned, and nobody bans the second one?

Then you need to stop being greedy.

Seriously, spreading out the bans to 3 people really lowered that particularly annoying complaint. Completely spreading it out might be enough to practically eliminate it altogether.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Seriously, spreading out the bans to 3 people really lowered that particularly annoying complaint. Completely spreading it out might be enough to practically eliminate it altogether.

There are a few practical considerations here though.

Firstly, non-Cyber Cafe players now have to own 16 rather than 20 champions in order to participate in draft. Maybe not a huge issue, but probably doesn't help the new player experience.

Secondly, how do you implement it? Do you go 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 for bans, and accept the increased time? Do you CUT the time, and potentially pressure people? Do you go 1-2-2-2-2-1 and have bans go at the same time to give every play the full time? If so, does that cause problems if people try to ban the same champion, or does it end up making the banning phase less strategic?

Definitely an interesting problem to explore.

[Nadevoc]

I would say that giving everyone a ban would make a much shorter time to ban acceptable (half it or so, which would make total time actually shorter).

Right now, there are times when someone doesn't control a ban but really wants someone banned, so you want to make sure they have time to communicate that. If everyone has a ban of their own, I think the importance of being able to discuss each ban goes down.

[Ashen Lilies]

RIP Yasuo mains, in any case.

((That said, if Yasuo does end up being near 100% banrate with 10 bans, it might persuade Riot to take a look at him and design a champion that's less stupidly frustrating to play against, even when balanced or even underpowered))

[Dienekes]

While I'm not exactly one that Riot should ever design for, since I only play ARAMs now. But, the idea of playing a normal and knowing 100% I will never have to lane against an Illaoi again does sound really good.

RIP Yasuo mains, in any case.

((That said, if Yasuo does end up being near 100% banrate with 10 bans, it might persuade Riot to take a look at him and design a champion that's less stupidly frustrating to play against, even when balanced or even underpowered))

Yasuo, and a few newer champions kind of confuse me. I remember reading an article awhile back about how Riot now designs champions with more effects, more levers that they can play around with to make balancing them easier. But then that design brings about characters like Yasuo and Azir that have a bunch of stuff that can be played around with, but I don't think they have ever been balanced in a way that is both fair for those they play against and are played by.

Or at the very least, in a way that the majority of players enjoy playing against them.

[Olinser]

RIP Yasuo mains, in any case.

((That said, if Yasuo does end up being near 100% banrate with 10 bans, it might persuade Riot to take a look at him and design a champion that's less stupidly frustrating to play against, even when balanced or even underpowered))

It's not just 10 bans. It's the same 6 bans, then picks, then 4 bans. So there is exactly the same chance to play him you just need to make sure somebody picks him early if you were in the last slots. Which is pretty much what is happening now, people are yelling to first pick Yasuo if he's up.

If they're waiting to the last 2 picks to take Yasuo they probably aren't a Yasuo main.

[Nadevoc]

It's not just 10 bans. It's the same 6 bans, then picks, then 4 bans. So there is exactly the same chance to play him you just need to make sure somebody picks him early if you were in the last slots. Which is pretty much what is happening now, people are yelling to first pick Yasuo if he's up.

If they're waiting to the last 2 picks to take Yasuo they probably aren't a Yasuo main.

In pro play, yes, the bans will be woven into pick order. Not positive that this will be the case in solo queue, though; they've mentioned they're considering having bans work differently than pro play. In solo queue, I think the advantage of letting everyone have their ban guaranteed might be higher at most/all levels of play.

Yasuo, and a few newer champions kind of confuse me. I remember reading an article awhile back about how Riot now designs champions with more effects, more levers that they can play around with to make balancing them easier. But then that design brings about characters like Yasuo and Azir that have a bunch of stuff that can be played around with, but I don't think they have ever been balanced in a way that is both fair for those they play against and are played by.

Do people legitimately still find Yasuo frustrating to play against (outside of when he's super fed, in which case most all champs are a huge pain)? Ever since the tweaks to his shield about a month after his release (duration/cooldown/charging), I've found him fun to play against unless I'm playing someone extremely skill-shot focused... but then it's just a match-up thing, kinda like how I hate playing melee mids into Ziggs/Lux/long range control mages It feels like people got into a "Yasuo is a pain in the butt" mindset when he was released because he WAS hugely frustrating at the time, and then the mindset has just kind of prevailed just because people kept repeating it.

[Dienekes]

Do people legitimately still find Yasuo frustrating to play against (outside of when he's super fed, in which case most all champs are a huge pain)? Ever since the tweaks to his shield about a month after his release (duration/cooldown/charging), I've found him fun to play against unless I'm playing someone extremely skill-shot focused... but then it's just a match-up thing, kinda like how I hate playing melee mids into Ziggs/Lux/long range control mages It feels like people got into a "Yasuo is a pain in the butt" mindset when he was released because he WAS hugely frustrating at the time, and then the mindset has just kind of prevailed just because people kept repeating it.

I won't pretend to know whether or not other people dislike Yasuo honestly or as part of groupthink.

I do know that I personally find his mobility, shield, and crit reliance annoying to deal with, but not insurmountably annoying. If I lane against a Yasuo I may get exasperated from time to time, but I can still have fun.

Which is unlike Illaoi, who I hate. I would rather lose a hard fought game against any other champion, than win while laning against an Illaoi.

[Forum Explorer]

Do people legitimately still find Yasuo frustrating to play against (outside of when he's super fed, in which case most all champs are a huge pain)? Ever since the tweaks to his shield about a month after his release (duration/cooldown/charging), I've found him fun to play against unless I'm playing someone extremely skill-shot focused... but then it's just a match-up thing, kinda like how I hate playing melee mids into Ziggs/Lux/long range control mages It feels like people got into a "Yasuo is a pain in the butt" mindset when he was released because he WAS hugely frustrating at the time, and then the mindset has just kind of prevailed just because people kept repeating it.

It's hit and miss. I mean he is a counter to a bunch of my preferred champions, and I absolutely hate how hard he is to gank. And since he's an AD champ, he can build a QS without any problems, particularly since he doesn't need anything but AD and crit. It frustrates me that he effectively has 2 passives. How he gets free armor pen. And how his wind wall can block ults. But I can handle him if I haven't been counter picked too badly or if the Yasuo isn't a high enough skill level to invalidate my abilities.


On the other hand, my friend tried Yasuo out, and declared him OP and downright one of the easiest champions he's ever played. That combats were just spamming E and Q to deal an easy massive amount of damage before landing an ult for a massive burst.


But personally Ekko drives me crazy. I mean, when I see him taking out a wave of minions with a single Q, and I have to use a Q, W and a few auto attacks to clear the same wave as Xerath, I get pretty upset. (And he only had boots ahead of me, so it wasn't like he was really far ahead and winning that way.)

[McDouggal]

The problem solo queue Yasuo isn't so much that he's annoying to lane against, but that he seems to either singlehandedly carry the game or be the reason why it was lost.

He either pops off and is doing late game ADC damage at 20 minutes or feeds since he has no recovery method when he falls behind.

It's frustrating to play with when he's behind or against when he's ahead, because of how his kit works. Not because he's annoying to play against in lane.

[lord_khaine]

Firstly, non-Cyber Cafe players now have to own 16 rather than 20 champions in order to participate in draft. Maybe not a huge issue, but probably doesn't help the new player experience.

Thats easily fixed by adding a few additional cheap champions to the free rotation.

[Nadevoc]

The problem solo queue Yasuo isn't so much that he's annoying to lane against, but that he seems to either singlehandedly carry the game or be the reason why it was lost.

He either pops off and is doing late game ADC damage at 20 minutes or feeds since he has no recovery method when he falls behind.

It's frustrating to play with when he's behind or against when he's ahead, because of how his kit works. Not because he's annoying to play against in lane.

From my experience, though, he isn't any worse in this regards than a LOT of other champions. Most any assassin, Shaco, Master Yi, Shyvana... All of them have games where either they get ahead and steamroll, or fall behind and don't contribute much beyond a warm body. About one game in twenty, any of these champs decide the game (and I don't see Yasuo deciding a game any more often than that). And there are some champions that even get the benefit of potentially rolling a game that hard but still manage to contribute when behind (mostly top laners like Illaoi or Yorick)



EDIT:

Thats easily fixed by adding a few additional cheap champions to the free rotation.

In ranked, free rotation champs don't count.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Thats easily fixed by adding a few additional cheap champions to the free rotation.

As mentioned above, free doesn't really help, since while that works for Normal Draft you can't play free champions in Ranked Draft unless you own them. And putting a different system on those two isn't really going to work.

You could reduce the price of more champions and/or give out free champions, but that's definitely going to cut into profit, even if just a TINY bit. That said, even cutting the prices doesn't help if the player doesn't WANT those champions, so free champions seems the better course. Personally I think you could make a case for giving everyone one character in each role at the start -- maybe Tristana / Nami / Ziggs / Amumu / Garen, to pick useful champions that I doubt are high on the "must buy" list of most starting players, but that's still a somewhat difficult pitch to make.

You also expand the knowledge requirement to enter Draft, since now you also should be able to PLAY those 20 champions at least somewhat decently, which seems like a minor issue but can be a major one for newer players.

Definitely doable, but, again, not as cut-and-dry simple as the idea initially seems.

[Anarion]

If there's a thing with Yasuo, it's that he picked up the reputation of the old Riven mains for making people play brainlessly. Like, it's not that the champion is better or worse than the other melee carry assassins, it's that people who play Yasuo tend to either feed and tilt or hard carry. Which isn't necessarily true of, say, Shaco mains or Zed mains.

[Dallas-Dakota]

You also expand the knowledge requirement to enter Draft, since now you also should be able to PLAY those 20 champions at least somewhat decently, which seems like a minor issue but can be a major one for newer players.

I've been playing ranked for years now and I think I'm only confident enough with around eight champions to take them into ranked.(With the exception of autofilling support: n I just go Blitzcrank and hope I hook people.)

Though that could also be because I haven't played some champions for years anymore.

Edit: ''Somewhat decently'' is a vague term though.

[Ashen Lilies]

My main feelings about Yasuo (and incidentally also Riven) are that they're both incredibly skill reliant champions who turn a lot matchups into skill-based/outplay matchups, but the nature of their kits makes them uniquely able to outplay, to a significantly higher degree than any other champion in the game.

This makes it feel like a lot of the time the matchup is out of your hands - if they're a good Yasuo/Riven, they'll just outplay you with one of eight billion possible combos and ludicrous animation canceling and just kill you in a way your pathetic 4-ability 1-passive champion-with-a-reasonable-kit-and-functioning-animations is actually just incapable of dealing with, or if they're bad Yasuo/Riven they end up outplaying themselves and you laugh at them as you collect your free kill. A lot of the time playing against them I feel like I might as well clock out because I'm not even playing the matchup, I'm just being the stationary bar against which the other player needs to measure themselves against to see if they're old enough to get on the Victory screen ride.

I just feel like the way Riven and Yasuo are designed, and what they're capable of is just too much compared to the general range of capability that most champions in the League have. This isn't to say that their kits are 'overloaded' in the same way that kits like release Ekko's was 'overloaded' in terms of just having so much damage and CC packed into it - but if champions like old Sion, old Taric, and (soon-to-be-old) Warwick occupy one end of the spectrum where their kits are just too simple to exist in the game because other champions have to actually have things like gameplay and meaningful expressions of skill when AP Sion walks up and clicks two buttons and you die, I honestly believe Riven and Yasuo are on the opposite end of that spectrum and no more healthy for it. You just can't have them co-exist in the same game as most of the game's roster and expect everything to fit smoothly together, just like you don't introduce two high-end Ferarris* into a monster truck rally.

*Yasuo is a high-end Ferarri, Riven is the crumbling, ratty piece of scrap metal held together with chewing gum and sellotape which makes suspicious noises that every engineer who looks at it says it should have fallen apart during the Crusades, but its driver swears up and down they've never found anything that handles better, and then surprises everyone when they drive circles around every other car on the track.**

**AP Sion in this increasingly complex analogy is the equivalent of a WWII era anti-tank gun emplacement.

[Forum Explorer]

As mentioned above, free doesn't really help, since while that works for Normal Draft you can't play free champions in Ranked Draft unless you own them. And putting a different system on those two isn't really going to work.

You could reduce the price of more champions and/or give out free champions, but that's definitely going to cut into profit, even if just a TINY bit. That said, even cutting the prices doesn't help if the player doesn't WANT those champions, so free champions seems the better course. Personally I think you could make a case for giving everyone one character in each role at the start -- maybe Tristana / Nami / Ziggs / Amumu / Garen, to pick useful champions that I doubt are high on the "must buy" list of most starting players, but that's still a somewhat difficult pitch to make.

You also expand the knowledge requirement to enter Draft, since now you also should be able to PLAY those 20 champions at least somewhat decently, which seems like a minor issue but can be a major one for newer players.

Definitely doable, but, again, not as cut-and-dry simple as the idea initially seems.

Ziggs and Nami? They are costly champs. Both are on the top level of champs, costing 6300 IP and whatever the equivalent RP is.

I'd say go with Ashe / Soraka / Ryze / Warwick / Garen

I'm pretty sure they are all the minimal price, so it's not like they'll be giving away a lot of IP by making them free. And most of those champs (barring Ryze) is newbie friendly, so it helps players learn the game as well.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ziggs and Nami? They are costly champs. Both are on the top level of champs, costing 6300 IP and whatever the equivalent RP is.

I'd say go with Ashe / Soraka / Ryze / Warwick / Garen

I'm pretty sure they are all the minimal price, so it's not like they'll be giving away a lot of IP by making them free. And most of those champs (barring Ryze) is newbie friendly, so it helps players learn the game as well.

That was actually somewhat intentional on my part. Warwick is rarely seen and has a very low-engagement jungling style, Ryze is complex as all get out, and Soraka changes the bottom lane dynamic in weird ways. I also wasn't picking the cheapest champions because that means people can still flesh out their champion pool quickly.

The goal was to pick characters who are solid in their roles and may see some competitive play, without being super niche or low-engagement in those roles. Further, most of those characters have seen (or do see) occasional competitive play (save maybe Garen), which I think would help Riot's goal of making competitive play more approachable. If my low-level games have Nunu and Warwick just AFK-farming the jungle and a stall-lane bot with Soraka, I may not feel as connected with top-level play.