League Of Legends LXVII: "MY PICK'EMS!"

[Forum Explorer]

In other news, Doublelift has announced he is taking a break from League, at least for LCS Spring 2017, but will be playing 'massive amounts of solo que'.

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/league-...etiring-566241

This sounds like he's working himself up to quitting completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person that's come back to LCS play after taking a season or more break was Meteos.

Wonder who TSM is going to get to replace him. Maybe try and get Turtle back?

Didn't FORGIVEN come back? But to a different team? There was something weird with him, cause it messed up my draft pick horribly.

[Vogie]

In other news, Doublelift has announced he is taking a break from League, at least for LCS Spring 2017, but will be playing 'massive amounts of solo que'.

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/league-...etiring-566241

This sounds like he's working himself up to quitting completely. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only person that's come back to LCS play after taking a season or more break was Meteos.

Wonder who TSM is going to get to replace him. Maybe try and get Turtle back?

I certainly hope so. I'd've picked WildTurtle over DL in the TSM lineup anyday.

[Ashen Lilies]

Didn't FORGIVEN come back? But to a different team? There was something weird with him, cause it messed up my draft pick horribly.

FORGIVEN came back to H2K for playoffs + Worlds because Freeze (their main starter) injured his wrist. I'm not 100% for what's happening with them and the team next season.

They totally screwed up my All Stars, though, since I wanted to pick Odoammne, FORGIVEN, and Ryu, and had to give up Ryu. Curse that silly "2 per team" rule.

NA: Impact, Reignover, Bjergsen, Liftlift, Aphromoo.

EU: Odo, Trashy, ???, FORGIVEN, Mithy.

I have a less strong memory for EU players and which ones I ended up being the most impressed by during the regular season, so I'm honestly not confident about my Jungle pick or who the heck I'm picking for Mid.

I don't watch any other region regularly, but I threw in obligatory votes for Peanut and Faker, because I want to see them on the world stage more yes please.

[Renegade Paladin]

Man. The Talon rework looks so cool.

Too bad he's a filthy Noxian.

[thracian]

I certainly hope so. I'd've picked WildTurtle over DL in the TSM lineup anyday.

In terms of player skill or player persona? Arguing over persona is w/e, but you'd be in staggering minority if you picked Wildturtle over DLift nowadays in terms of ability to win games.

[Joran]

FORGIVEN came back to H2K for playoffs + Worlds because Freeze (their main starter) injured his wrist. I'm not 100% for what's happening with them and the team next season.

They totally screwed up my All Stars, though, since I wanted to pick Odoammne, FORGIVEN, and Ryu, and had to give up Ryu. Curse that silly "2 per team" rule.

NA: Impact, Reignover, Bjergsen, Liftlift, Aphromoo.

EU: Odo, Trashy, ???, FORGIVEN, Mithy.

I have a less strong memory for EU players and which ones I ended up being the most impressed by during the regular season, so I'm honestly not confident about my Jungle pick or who the heck I'm picking for Mid.

I don't watch any other region regularly, but I threw in obligatory votes for Peanut and Faker, because I want to see them on the world stage more yes please.

I went with:
NA: Huni, Reignover, Bjergsen, Liftlift, Aphro. Huni's much more entertaining than Impact and I'm valuing Huni's performance in the regular season, more than Impact coming up clutch in the playoffs.

EU: Odo, Trick, Ryu, Zven, Yellowstar. Picked Yellowstar to go to one Final Worlds as a lifetime achievement award.

P.S. I probably would have picked Forgiven for ADC, except that I already had Odo and Ryu.

I certainly hope so. I'd've picked WildTurtle over DL in the TSM lineup anyday.

WildTurtle isn't as good mechanically as DL and isn't as good a laner. Both ADCs suffer a bit from going too aggro and putting themselves into poor positions. Additionally, I think DLift was one of the main shotcallers on TSM and TSM's shotcalling was great during the Summer Split.

As a TSM fan, I'm going to miss Doublelift, but that Lucian play in the finals is one of the all time great plays in NA LCS history.

[Ashen Lilies]

hmm... All-Stars does count as an international tournament, come to think of it.

Picking anyone from G2 might be a risk...

[Vogie]

In terms of player skill or player persona? Arguing over persona is w/e, but you'd be in staggering minority if you picked Wildturtle over DLift nowadays in terms of ability to win games.

He may be below DL in innate ability to win games, but I felt that he meshed with the team and could take direction better than DL. In a pure-mechanics, "1v1mebro" environment, DL would win hands down, no question, over the vast majority of professional players... but for such a mechanically intensive and important role in competitive 5s, I wouldn't want the ADC to be shotcalling or clashing/arguing with the shotcaller.

[thracian]

He may be below DL in innate ability to win games, but I felt that he meshed with the team and could take direction better than DL. In a pure-mechanics, "1v1mebro" environment, DL would win hands down, no question, over the vast majority of professional players... but for such a mechanically intensive and important role in competitive 5s, I wouldn't want the ADC to be shotcalling or clashing/arguing with the shotcaller.

I specified ability to win games for a reason. If Doublelift, even with the weight of shotcalling, not taking direction well and having issues with players he doesn't respect still has a better contribution towards winning games than Wildturtle, that says something about the skill disparity.

If your goal is to have a fun-to-watch team that plays aggressively and then sits at home while the real top teams in a region go to worlds, take Wildturtle. If you want to actually win in clutch games and take home a trophy, I'd take Doublelift.

[PhantomFox]

*sigh* Somewhat annoyed at myself. Every season so far I've been able to end ranked a division above last time, but not this year. Maybe... 50 LP more. So I won't be able to get to Gold on my own this year. Again.
(Hur hur hur, can't hear you all the way up here in diamond/platinum/whatever, scrub)
Shut up, inferiority brain weasels!

[Lethologica]

*sigh* Somewhat annoyed at myself. Every season so far I've been able to end ranked a division above last time, but not this year. Maybe... 50 LP more. So I won't be able to get to Gold on my own this year. Again.
(Hur hur hur, can't hear you all the way up here in diamond/platinum/whatever, scrub)
Shut up, inferiority brain weasels!

Haha, you thought it was inferiority brain weasels, but...

Spoiler

Show

[Ivellius]

I'm going to pointedly ignore the last two posts.

Also: huh, I got to Platinum this season. It was kind of anti-climactic winning the first three games in the series. Hardly any pressure or anything.

[Vogie]

I specified ability to win games for a reason. If Doublelift, even with the weight of shotcalling, not taking direction well and having issues with players he doesn't respect still has a better contribution towards winning games than Wildturtle, that says something about the skill disparity.

If your goal is to have a fun-to-watch team that plays aggressively and then sits at home while the real top teams in a region go to worlds, take Wildturtle. If you want to actually win in clutch games and take home a trophy, I'd take Doublelift.

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

[Joran]

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

I'm confused by why Season 4 and previous matters for the current state of Doublelift and WildTurtle; that's two years ago and players change. It's a simple fact that TSM completely lost faith in WildTurtle at the end of Season 5; that's why they brought in Keith as a sub and that's why they replaced WildTurtle after Season 5 with Doublelift. Doublelift's record the last 3 splits is impressive; he's won 2 LCS splits (1 with CLG, 1 with a dominant TSM) and finished second the other split.

WildTurtle's a good player, one with noticeable flaws, but given the choice between WildTurtle and Doublelift on TSM, give me Doublelift.

Edit: As a TSM fan, I do miss some of the "Doublelift is a choker" memes, but I've been nothing but impressed with him on TSM.

[Ashen Lilies]

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

There are four other players on the team, you know.

Also coaching and support staff.

[thracian]

Okay, so you were around in Season 5. Good for you. But DL was part of the playing-second-fiddle-to-TSM for every season prior to that. WildTurtle been the top of solo tier NA and could keep up with the Koreans since season three. Doublelift in CLG simply hasn't. TeamSoloMid has consistently been the one who wins the clutch games and goes for the trophy, and DL just hasn't contributed to that.

In addition to what others said (especially Joran, thanks for making me not have to type it out), do you remember Season 3 CLG? People joked about Bjergsen and his wards, and how if Bjergsen makes a single mistake they lose the game immediately, but CLG was way, way more reliant on Doublelift than TSM ever was on Bjerg.

Also, Doublelift never played second-fiddle to TSM. CLG did, sure. But even back in the day, once the initial pentakill hype wore off, pretty much everyone who wasn't a blind TSM fanboy conceded that Doublelift is the best ADC in NA. Most considered him the best ADC in the west.

[Joran]

In addition to what others said (especially Joran, thanks for making me not have to type it out), do you remember Season 3 CLG? People joked about Bjergsen and his wards, and how if Bjergsen makes a single mistake they lose the game immediately, but CLG was way, way more reliant on Doublelift than TSM ever was on Bjerg.

Also, Doublelift never played second-fiddle to TSM. CLG did, sure. But even back in the day, once the initial pentakill hype wore off, pretty much everyone who wasn't a blind TSM fanboy conceded that Doublelift is the best ADC in NA. Most considered him the best ADC in the west.

I think there's also a point to be made that Doublelift had a marked change in attitude between CLG and TSM. Before he was unceremoniously kicked off of CLG, Doublelift was not a good team member. He's even stated that he wasn't the best teammate when XMithie had visa troubles between his win between Summer Split and Worlds, not to mention that 17 page epic story known as the "Donezo Manifesto".

Switching to TSM was the best thing to happen to Doublelift because he joined a team where he was no longer the alpha dog. There were strong leaders in Bjergsen and Reginald that had the standing to challenge Doublelift and focus him toward what was best for the team. It also was a wake up call that his previous attitude was not healthy and having a fresh start was important to changing that attitude.

The Doublelift of 2016 is much different than even the Doublelift of 2015 and he was undeniably a big part of the success of Summer Split TSM.

[Maryring]

A friend of mine plays DOTA and he finally pushed me into playing the game with him yesterday. And I already know I won't be playing it at all except for the benefit of someone else. I have never seen such an obtuse, unfriendly system. That game is to LoL, what LoL was to Dawngate, and I found Dawngate to be perfection.

So yeah, LoL 's gonna reign for my MOBA needs for a while yet.

[lord_khaine]

A friend of mine plays DOTA and he finally pushed me into playing the game with him yesterday. And I already know I won't be playing it at all except for the benefit of someone else. I have never seen such an obtuse, unfriendly system. That game is to LoL, what LoL was to Dawngate, and I found Dawngate to be perfection.

I read a study of the game system, that explained how it straight up encuraged a toxic enviroment by its design.

[Maryring]

I read a study of the game system, that explained how it straight up encuraged a toxic enviroment by its design.

Considering the tutorial includes the bots shouting insults that honestly doesn't surprise me. Though I'd still love to read that article.

[Lethologica]

my god, it's full of lux skins

[Siosilvar]

A friend of mine plays DOTA and he finally pushed me into playing the game with him yesterday. And I already know I won't be playing it at all except for the benefit of someone else. I have never seen such an obtuse, unfriendly system. That game is to LoL, what LoL was to Dawngate, and I found Dawngate to be perfection.

So yeah, LoL 's gonna reign for my MOBA needs for a while yet.

Yeahhhhh it's pretty good but oh my god the learning curve was the shallowest* I've ever seen. Because it spent so long on the Warcraft 3 engine, there are so many mechanics that aren't intuitive in the least. It gets a lot better with experience but the first fifty games are really bad. At least they've been doing a few small mechanics reworks to make them less unnecessarily complicated (damage types and spell immunity come to mind).

*yes, this is the technically correct phrasing. shallow = slow acquisition of knowledge. no idea why common parlance switched them.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

*yes, this is the technically correct phrasing. shallow = slow acquisition of knowledge. no idea why common parlance switched them.

Out of curiosity...do you have a source for that? I enjoy linguistic roots, but have NEVER heard of this use of shallow, and can't seem to track it down.

[Dire Ferret]

*yes, this is the technically correct phrasing. shallow = slow acquisition of knowledge. no idea why common parlance switched them.

A steep learning curve implies that it takes a long time to climb.

[Siosilvar]

Out of curiosity...do you have a source for that? I enjoy linguistic roots, but have NEVER heard of this use of shallow, and can't seem to track it down.

A steep learning curve implies that it takes a long time to climb.

Okay, I guess "no idea why common parlance switched them" was wrong because I forgot that it's based on a misunderstanding of what the curve is. In common usage, the curve is a hill to climb. In the literature, the curve is the amount of knowledge you gain with a certain amount of experience.

As far as sourcing it, here's a decent summary. I will admit to pulling that off the bottom of the Wikipedia page about learning curves. It seems that "steep" and "shallow" were confused almost immediately after use, so I suppose I should revise my original post to say Dota has a long learning curve.

edit: Hm, I'm not sure if it was actually the slowest I've picked up a game. I think EU4 took me more game hours to fully understand, but then again I had previous League and Warcraft experience to pull from for Dota, and I spend a lot of time outside of games reading about them.

[Ivellius]

Okay, I guess "no idea why common parlance switched them" was wrong because I forgot that it's based on a misunderstanding of what the curve is. In common usage, the curve is a hill to climb. In the literature, the curve is the amount of knowledge you gain with a certain amount of experience.

I would suggest that common parlance has just changed the variables under consideration: it's not a "knowledge compared with time" graph but an "amount of knowledge required to gain game proficiency" graph. Under that concept, a "steep learning curve" means you will need to gain a lot of game knowledge before you can really do anything competently.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I would suggest that common parlance has just changed the variables under consideration: it's not a "knowledge compared with time" graph but an "amount of knowledge required to gain game proficiency" graph. Under that concept, a "steep learning curve" means you will need to gain a lot of game knowledge before you can really do anything competently.

This is how I've always interpreted it, yeah. You can pick up League or DotA pretty fast...if you're willing to pour over all the tiny details.

[Recaiden]

Both of these curves are steep.

But only one of them is shallow.

Math is a tricky thing.

[sonofzeal]

Speaking as a math guy myself, I always interpretted it less as a graph, and more as a hill. If it's shallow, it's easy to walk up; if it's steep, it's hard.

[thracian]

Stupid Ghostblade nerfs.