General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[fishyfishyfishy]

He does indeed have Wazzoo Auspex. 6 dots of it in fact. The issue here is that only helps him, and it's still tied with the player character who has Chimerstry 6. He's the only one likely to see through any of these powers. The mirrors help the other elders present who don't have Auspex in clan and only have 2 or 3 dots in it, and are thus unable to pierce the illusions.

[The Jack]

Just relooked at that ritual. It doesn't do bugger for chimistry.


Have the tremere use a laser pointer, or throw rocks. Beat chimestry the 'ol fashioned way.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Just relooked at that ritual. It doesn't do bugger for chimistry.


Have the tremere use a laser pointer, or throw rocks. Beat chimestry the 'ol fashioned way.

Uhhh..

Mirror of Second Sight

The caster bathes an ordinary mirror (no less than four inches/six centimeters wide and no more than 18 inches/50 cm in length) in a small quantity of his blood while reciting a ritual incantation that takes one hour to complete. Thereafter, the mirror reflects images of other supernatural creatures’ true forms – werewolves appear in their hybrid man-wolf shapes, mages glow in a scintillating nimbus, wraiths become visible, subjects under the guise of Obfuscate can be seen, illusions cast no reflection, and those possessed of True Faith are wreathed clouds of golden light. The mirror retains its powers for a number for nights equal to the successes scored on the initial casting roll.

Underline added for emphasis.

Maybe you looked at a different version from what I'm using? I use Dark Ages V20.

[The Jack]

Alright, was using V20.

In that case... I think the only thing you've got in the books is the 4th level inscription ritual that lets you prepare rituals for others to cast. (if the distastefully powerful DAV20 version continues to be caster only)


As much as I loath the thought, There might be rituals that ban disciplines in some ill-advised supplement.


I'd recommend you just make some smart elders who can plan ahead and competently work together, who have contingency plans when something goes wrong, as all elders should. Magic is a crutch.

[Jeivar]

Okay, so I'm experimenting with transferring Star Wars into the oWoD d10 system. Most of it is a simple matter, but Force Powers are more complicated. I would appreciate some thoughts on the rough draft:

Spoiler

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Rather than create an exhaustive list of skills to chose from I just divided powers into three general categories: Sense, Control and Alter (terms borrowed from D20). Each one is ranked from zero to five, and having two dots in, say, Sense means having two dots in all sub-skills. Each sub-skill is paired up with an Attribute score.

Players start out with ten Force Power Points, which function much like a Blood Pool. One point is spent for each use of a Force power. The pool is refilled with the Meditation skill.

I'm not entirely decided on how to handle lightsabers; whether to give them obscene damage, or make them ignore armour or what. I'm also considering having lightsabers cancel out much of one another's damage, making for more drawn-out, exciting duels.

Spoiler: Alter

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ALTER:

Disrupt (Intelligence): Difficulty 6. Each success does unsoakable damage to a droid or other type of complex machine.

Heal other (Intelligence): Difficulty 6. Each success heals one point of damage.

Mind trick (Manipulation): Difficulty: target's Willpower. Effect must be relatively minor.

Telepathy (Intelligence): Can communicate with someone you either know or can see.
Difficulty:
6 - Same building
7 - Same city
8 - Same planet
9 - Same system
10 - Anywhere

Telekinesis (Wits): Can move object 10 m per round. Must make a second roll if distracted or attacked.
Difficulty:
6 - Small object
7 - Larger object
8 - Person
9 - Speeder
10 - Ship

Spoiler: Control

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CONTROL:

Empower (Stamina): The adept draws power from the Force, adding successes to physical attributes of their choosing. Takes one round of uninterrupted focus. Difficulty 6.

Hide (Wits): The adept hides from Sense Force. Difficulty 8. Lasts for one day, or until a Force power is used.

Regeneration (Stamina): The adept meditates for one hour. Difficulty 6. Each success heals one point of damage.

Resist Force (Wits): The adept rolls against the successes of another adept attempting to affect them. Difficulty 6

Spoiler: Sense

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SENSE:

Sense danger (Wits): Storyteller rolls for the player, to avoid being surprised by an attack. Difficulty depends on severity of danger.

Sense emotion (Perception): Difficulty 6.

Sense surface thoughts (Perception): Difficulty 8.

Sense Force (Perception): Can sense a fellow Force user, or an object or place strong in the Force.

Difficulty:
6 - Same room
7 - Same building
8 - Same street
9 - Same City
10 - Same planet

[fishyfishyfishy]

Just play Mage.

[The Jack]

Either mage it or treat it like thaumaturgy; one main ability thats expensive with cheaper sub abiliies.

I feel the main path will always be the guidance effect that makes you a little better at everything and gives you bad feelings about things. Then copy-paste movement of the mind, a path of mental manipulation, have a path of rapid movement and flips, the lightning attack...

Let them increase the dark side at a cheaper rate.

[Jeivar]

I've never played Mage.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Grab the core book and give it a read. It's going to fulfill a lot of the things you desire from putting Star Wars into the ST system.

[lightningcat]

I am going with the assumesion that you want to use the Storyteller system for Star Wars, and not add Jedi to WoD.

While Mage is always a right option, I think using psychic powers from Sorcerer might be a better option. Such as Animal Psychic, Astral Projection, Biocontrol, Clairvoyance, Mind Shields, Precognition, Psychic Healing, Psychic Invisibility, Psychokinesis, Synergy, and Telepathy. Maybe throw in some of the numina from the same book.
You could also break these into Thermanurgy-like groups of Alter, Control, and Sense. With each of the powers being in one of the groups. This would also allow a nice 5 or 7 point flaw of not being able to use one of the groups (which in Legends canon did happen) or a merit or background to improve one of the groups.

[The Jack]

Do people still play v5/Has anything come up to redeem it at all?

Every now and ten some adds pop up on my facebook of people playing it, and I'm concerned, because I don't want it to be half a hit. I want it to die, to be the equivalent of DnD 4e where it's completely skipped over. Middle of the road properties are awful because they hang on.

[Ignimortis]

Do people still play v5/Has anything come up to redeem it at all?

Every now and ten some adds pop up on my facebook of people playing it, and I'm concerned, because I don't want it to be half a hit. I want it to die, to be the equivalent of DnD 4e where it's completely skipped over. Middle of the road properties are awful because they hang on.

Seeing as it's basically on standby after the Chechnya debacle and other things that forced Paradox to tighten WW's leash, I figure it won't be as well-supported as other editions were.

Good riddance, I say - what was done to Lasombra in Chicago by Night 5e is absolutely atrocious both mechanically and flavour-wise, and the general direction of 5e going "we're so punk, down with everything that's not Anarch because Camarilla is the establishment and Sabbat are murderous lunatics without redeeming traits" also sucks. Fluff in general sucks, but the Masquerade can't really work at the point where every large city has CCTV cameras on main streets at least and every passerby has a smartphone with a good camera. VtM can't go past 2005 or so, because technology dismantles the Masquerade.

The only parts of V5 that deserved some praise were Amalgam disciplines (much better done in the form of Combo Disciplines earlier) and some parts of the Hunger system (except the gamist and strictly defined blood system from V20 was better in every way but immersion or something).

[fishyfishyfishy]

it's basically on standby

What? The existing orders are being filled, Chicago by Night and Cults of the Blood Gods are both on their way from Onyx Path. Modiphius has the Fall of London chronicle, Players Guide, Starter Set, and the Second Inquisition books on the way...

It's going just fine.

[The Jack]

What are lasombra like in V5?
(they're my favourite clan)


RE: CCTV
I believe all they really need to do is to allow for a renaissance in Technomancy. A few good powers that perhaps the tremere agree to share (out of necessity) or which is independently developed by all major groups of blood sorcerers.
Also; a comical sect-wide program dedicated to having elders taught how computers and cameras work.

Honestly though, strategic dominate and presence has always worked wonders. Auspex would help a cainite easily determine where active cameras are.

[Ignimortis]

What are lasombra like in V5?
(they're my favourite clan)

Well, they left the Sabbat and joined the Camarilla, but:
1) The Cami elders demanded that Lasombra kill half of their own clan (can't recall the method by which it was determined who would live and who would die)
2) They can't use their signature discipline under a threat of death
3) They're under some sort of surveillance and if they break the Traditions, it's Final Death for any Lasombra who did that

Also, Obtenebration is now called Oblivion. It's the dumbest thing ever, because it's Obtenebration+Necromancy, only it sucks. It's so evil that any use of it threatens your Humanity (IIRC, if you either roll a botch or a crit success on Oblivion activation, you get a Stain, which is like a Humanity violation which stack up and eventually make you lose Humanity). The effects are also terrible - not a single one is actually better than what Obtenebration had in V20, and some are definitely worse. The only good thing is that you can get Shadow Step at level 5 instead of level 6, but that's literally the only plus.

Also, their weakness changed from being one of the most insignificant things in the game (no mirrors = no soul, also lets you ignore cameras by some ST's judgements, mine said no and I don't mind) to being immediately noticeable to anyone who knows something about vampires - they show up distorted and glitchy on video and in mirrors.

Moreso, even cellphones can't really process them, so they have to roll every time they have to call someone, which is ridiculously dumb...and can actually be circumvented by being a wiz tech, as in, having 4 or 5 dots in Technology. All Lasombras now either have a special phone-carrier ghoul or are master tech crafters. Whee.

It's a disgrace is what it is.

[The Jack]

Ah, I see, they took the clan that venerated supreme competence and made them inept.

After what happened to the tremere, I'm convinced that V5 was spearheaded by some super ******** that could only play the easy clans and wanted to bring everyone down to their level.

[russdm]

Given the sheer amount of discussion, I would like to know, is the point of World of Darkness to play Superheroes that are monsters or Monsters that are gritty with issues and have some interesting abilities?

Was the point that you were a monster trying to survive while keeping scraps of humanity intact? Or just Fanged Superheroes? I recall many or much of the editions getting the "Fanged Superheroes" treatment based on how people end up playing it.

[AshfireMage]

Given the sheer amount of discussion, I would like to know, is the point of World of Darkness to play Superheroes that are monsters or Monsters that are gritty with issues and have some interesting abilities?

Was the point that you were a monster trying to survive while keeping scraps of humanity intact? Or just Fanged Superheroes? I recall many or much of the editions getting the "Fanged Superheroes" treatment based on how people end up playing it.

The point, based on my reading of the books and how all the best groups I've played with have done it, is the latter. You're playing as a person with many built-in fatal flaws and interacting with those (and the interpersonal relationships between the characters) is where the game is at its best. Wrestling with that balance between humanity and monstrosity.

However. A lot of groups do take it into the superheros-with-fangs department. I'm not gonna say badwrongfun, but if you want to play in that style, I think there's better games for it.

Also, based on the way you phrased some things, it seems like you're mostly talking about Vampire. I will say that the different lines in oWoD are somewhat different in theme and tone. If you want an all-out superpowers type of game but want to stay in the general setting, you might be better off with Werewolf or even Hunter, both of which are still WoD games, but do have some mechanics that make it easier to incorporate that style of play.

Did that answer your question? I can elaborate or take a different tack if I've misunderstood something

[Morty]

Given the sheer amount of discussion, I would like to know, is the point of World of Darkness to play Superheroes that are monsters or Monsters that are gritty with issues and have some interesting abilities?

Was the point that you were a monster trying to survive while keeping scraps of humanity intact? Or just Fanged Superheroes? I recall many or much of the editions getting the "Fanged Superheroes" treatment based on how people end up playing it.

Which World of Darkness and which gameline in either of those? A lot of discussions about WoD are muddied to the point of uselessness because people say "WoD" when they mean "stuff I heard about Vampire: the Masquerade years ago".

[russdm]

However. A lot of groups do take it into the superheros-with-fangs department. I'm not gonna say badwrongfun, but if you want to play in that style, I think there's better games for it.

Also, based on the way you phrased some things, it seems like you're mostly talking about Vampire. I will say that the different lines in oWoD are somewhat different in theme and tone. If you want an all-out superpowers type of game but want to stay in the general setting, you might be better off with Werewolf or even Hunter, both of which are still WoD games, but do have some mechanics that make it easier to incorporate that style of play.

Did that answer your question? I can elaborate or take a different tack if I've misunderstood something

Yeah, I think I am thinking about Vampire. And that being something that happened apparently. Maybe I read it on the pages for Vampire in TVTropes about games being played as superheros-with-fangs. Despite the game writers intentions. Anyway, was curious, because it seemed to be the difference between how the game makers intended and how it got played sometimes. So, had been wondering which way was the more "in tune" with the game makers intentions.

[Ignimortis]

Yeah, I think I am thinking about Vampire. And that being something that happened apparently. Maybe I read it on the pages for Vampire in TVTropes about games being played as superheros-with-fangs. Despite the game writers intentions. Anyway, was curious, because it seemed to be the difference between how the game makers intended and how it got played sometimes. So, had been wondering which way was the more "in tune" with the game makers intentions.

OG White Wolf were pretty much pretentious a-holes who accused everyone who dared to play VtM as not angst-overflowing story of characters' inevitable downfall into monstrosities, of being munchkins or hack-n-slash players. At the same time they inserted characters who were breaking their own rules into the setting (see: Ferox), etc.

Basically, most people I know play VtM as either a political intrigue with superpowers or somewhat superheroes with fangs, but less focused on helping the people or black-and-white morality, and more about the eternal vampire war. The best games usually combine politics and small-scale conflict with common superpower use and the concept of Masquerade, so you get to duke it out as long as you're not noticeable to the general populace.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Wow that's totally different from my experience. My groups have always treated them as games focused on interpersonal relationships and conflicts, and dealing with the utter horror of your situation. It was introduced to me as horror first and we've always tried to play to that angle. I've heard about it being treated as "superheroes with fangs" or even antiheroes, but no one I've interacted with has said that's the norm or the expectation.

[Milo v3]

I definitely wouldn't describe my Vampire the Requiem campaign as "Superheroes with Fangs". Some of the players have tried to do some good, but they're nowhere close to heroes (and one of them doesn't even have fangs).

[Anonymouswizard]

As has been said, oWW were very into one true wayism, to the point where adventures handed out Humanity penalties for not following.

As a side note the two Werewolf games are much closer to being 'superheroes with fangs', although in theory they're about war. Both have, in my opinion, much better lore than either iteration of Vampire (although my preference is for Apocalypse I'd jump at the chance to play Forsaken), a clear enemy for the PCs, and focus on what people are picking the games up for (ripping things apart as a giant wolf), even if the system isn't great for that. Werewolf really shines when you can balance the combat and social side just enough to get the entire 'we are struggling together' dynamic at the forefront.

Plus the Glass Walkers and Children of Gaia are great.

[comicshorse]

As has been said, oWW were very into one true wayism, to the point where adventures handed out Humanity penalties for not following.

Yeah but despite declaring it was all about the angst they also produced straight out Dungeon crawls like 'Diablerie in Meixco' or worship our god like NPC affairs like......er the one where Baba Yaga gets it (damn forgotten it) or the whole Samuel Haight mess
To me a lot of OWOD was 'do what we say, not what we do'
Personally speaking most games I was in (which was quite a few back in the day) preferred a variety of themes usually focused around what the P.C.'s were interested in. Politics, both kindred and manipulating mortal institutions, featured a lot. As did interacting with the other weird forces that inhabited the world and other Kindred. The possibility of the descent into becoming a monster was present but more usually as a ever present shadow hanging over the characters. With it only occasionally being the focus of a characters, or the coterie's, plot. Usually when something had gone horribly wrong

[The Jack]

Well, you want to avoid the '**** off, if things were this bad we'd all kill ourselves' which is very present in the product we don't speak of but which often appears in 'personal horror' focused games. This especially goes for vampire, where unbelievable levels of suck are generously applied to everything one does. I had one guy who made it so that diablerie was semi-possession and you'd always get crippling psychological damage every time you ate somebody... It's bull****. Don't make things worse than the books say.

As written, nothing's really that bad, and a good reality check should really disuade anyone who goes in that heavy.
At the same time, I think pure super-hero romps are something you want to moderate; The occasional splash into kickassery is fine, but even the garou shouldn't get solid runs of kickassery all the time.

Most games revolve around:
Interpersonal relationships (but ideally not so many issues that it feels contrived. Believe me, people can really contrive these. Ive spent so many games where literally everyone I've recruited has had very serious personal flaws that were detrimental for me revealed eventually and it's just tiresome. When the ST has everyone either uselessly inept or a strong willed serial killer it's just bull****)
Political horror (the best kind of horror)

Vampire's about accumulating backgrounds whilst things push back at you if you don't do it tactfully enough.
Werewolf's about pigheadedly murdering problems as an extremist.
Mage is about proving yourself right.

I don't think you really need to 'theme' things if you just follow what the books say accurately and have a solid grasp of how things work in reality. WoD is just reality+. Take into account everything it offers and then try to be a 'realist'.


(PS: what did the monsters do with the lasombra?)

[Anonymouswizard]

I'll note that the core elements of Vampire don't actually appeal to me, I'd much rather play a globe trotting Noddist game than a political one. It's one of the reasons my favourite oWoD games are Werewolf, Mage*, and Demon, there's a lot more potential for searching in them.

But yeah, a recurring problem with WoD is the games not running best in the way the developers imply. Humanity is supposed to be this thing you're always worried about losing that spirals downwards, but in many ways the game works better if you have it remain relatively constant or make raising it easier (even the setting as written doesn't quite work with RAW Humanity, too many high H elders running around).

* Although anytime I play Mage these days I just wonder why we aren't playing Unknown Armies, which to me takes the good bits of Mage and throws out the stupid.

[The Jack]

Thing with humanity is that, baring diablerie, you have to really go out of your way for it not to hover at about 4 or 5. It takes silly-evil nonsense to go lower than 4. The only reason for falling to the beast, other than a succession of better-gen vampires staked in a nice row, is that RAW you need to buy humanity with xp, which is bull**** and virtually never followed.

I kinda hate having players that want to cultivate high humanity. The in-character whining carries over to the player because of the mechanical focus of it all.
(plus movers'n shakers are much better characters to deal with than someone who wants to keep humanity at 8+ and thus who retreats from the world)


Humanity focused games are dumb. I mean, it's not a bad PoE, but putting more stress on it than neccessary is just a terrible way to play the game. (insert v5 rant here about how they've scrapped PoEs and just focused on humanity whilst also enforcing bull**** connections to people, purposefully avoiding connections which would allow bad-person play)

-and then they killed my loved ones- is much better than -and then the beast got stronger and I have to rollplay some new insanity arbitrarily given to me-



If your play involves the thought process "I could pull off this amazing stunt and win a power play, but then I'd have to spend several months helping orphans to make up for it and can't buy that discipline because I need positive points" then... well that's the game sucking

[Kesnit]

I'm putting together the backstory for a new CtL LARP character, and have a question.

Spoiler: Character

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He's an Elemental with a custom kith. This element is "Code of the Universe," and his kith blessing is "can buy Contract of Animation."

Spoiler: Backstory so far

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When Code was a teenage, he was in an active guild in WoW. Not the kind that pushes for world first, but one that plays regularly and expects its members to keep up. His dream is to become a game developer.

One morning, he woke up and "remembered" seeing an ad for a local company that is looking for beta testers for their new VR hardware. In reality, the "memory" was implanted in this dreams by a True Fae. Code applied and was accepted. When he went to the address to get his hardware and orientation, he actually entered Arcadia. The game (which is really a video game put together by the Keeper) is a cross between WoW and Eve Online. The setting is fantasy, but the events of the game are very player-driven, with the Keeper mostly watching and adding tweaks as it sees fit.

One day, another PC hands Code a piece of paper with symbols on it. When Code looks at the paper, a console comes up in his HUD. Studying closer, Code realizes this is a developer's console, and the symbols are the code to bring it up. With more time, Code figures out the "cheat codes" for the game. Eventually, he learns how to write himself out of the game.

Code wakes up in a hotel room at DragonCon. I put him there for metagame reasons. My wife and I have already written the ST and his business partner (also a player, call them N and C) into the game as NPCs. (The real N and C are professional crafters, and do most of their business at cons. DragonCon is one of the big ones they go to.) I thought it would be amusing if the NPC versions of N and C were the ones who found Code. However, I have to get Code out of the hotel room and to the lobby, where he will be found by N and C.

And recommendations on how Code should react to his return to the world? He didn't pass through the Hedge - just warped from Arcadia to the hotel room. He didn't come through a Hedge Gate. There are no other Changlings around when he wakes up. (C will contact the local freehold after they find Code.)

[Ignimortis]

Thing with humanity is that, baring diablerie, you have to really go out of your way for it not to hover at about 4 or 5. It takes silly-evil nonsense to go lower than 4. The only reason for falling to the beast, other than a succession of better-gen vampires staked in a nice row, is that RAW you need to buy humanity with xp, which is bull**** and virtually never followed.

I kinda hate having players that want to cultivate high humanity. The in-character whining carries over to the player because of the mechanical focus of it all.
(plus movers'n shakers are much better characters to deal with than someone who wants to keep humanity at 8+ and thus who retreats from the world)


Humanity focused games are dumb. I mean, it's not a bad PoE, but putting more stress on it than neccessary is just a terrible way to play the game. (insert v5 rant here about how they've scrapped PoEs and just focused on humanity whilst also enforcing bull**** connections to people, purposefully avoiding connections which would allow bad-person play)

-and then they killed my loved ones- is much better than -and then the beast got stronger and I have to rollplay some new insanity arbitrarily given to me-

You made me laugh out loud, man, since we do have a guy in my group who has True Faith and Humanity 9 and sometimes whines about how hard it is and how superior he is to other vampires because of being an altruist and hating all the factions in the Jyhad because they're all rotten.