General WoD Discussion #5: Chronicles of Duty: Modern Darkness

[One Tin Soldier]

How far does the Garou/Uratha healing factor go? Does it, for example, remove all scars? Undo cosmetic surgery? Remove implants/piercings? This is definitely not because I'm trying to extrapolate setting details (he sarcasmed).

According to Blood of the Wolf (p21), typical Uratha always-on healing does leave scars as usual, but healing via Essence expenditure heals the flesh perfectly. If an uratha wanted to get rid of scars (say, to heal a limp) conventional surgery would work fine, as would deliberately re-injuring themselves and spending Essence to heal it perfectly.

Implants and piercings are also doable, though their healing means that you have to be quite prompt inserting the desired jewelry unless the werewolf actively suppresses their regeneration (an activity compared to holding your breath). Tattoos are similarly annoying, and often come out different than intended but not impossible. Implants are not specifically mentioned, but would probably face similar challenges. Piercings, implants, tattoo ink, knives, bullets, etc. won't be actively expelled from the body.

I do recommend Blood of the Wolf if you want more of this kind of physiology and psychology info. Most of it should translate over to 2e just fine.

[Milo v3]

According to Blood of the Wolf (p21), typical Uratha always-on healing does leave scars as usual, but healing via Essence expenditure heals the flesh perfectly. If an uratha wanted to get rid of scars (say, to heal a limp) conventional surgery would work fine, as would deliberately re-injuring themselves and spending Essence to heal it perfectly.

Implants and piercings are also doable, though their healing means that you have to be quite prompt inserting the desired jewelry unless the werewolf actively suppresses their regeneration (an activity compared to holding your breath). Tattoos are similarly annoying, and often come out different than intended but not impossible. Implants are not specifically mentioned, but would probably face similar challenges. Piercings, implants, tattoo ink, knives, bullets, etc. won't be actively expelled from the body.

I do recommend Blood of the Wolf if you want more of this kind of physiology and psychology info. Most of it should translate over to 2e just fine.

2e has healing be much stronger than Blood of the Wolf had so it isn't a reliable source. For example werewolves don't scar (outside of silver) and they automatically regrow limbs and organs once they heal the damage that inflicted it without having to wait ages or spending willpower dots.

[RifleAvenger]

In 1e some uratha had silver piercings, but that wouldn't really work in 2e given that you feel constant pain touching silver.

Wow, I must not read my corebooks thoroughly enough. Not sure I'd use that in my own games, I sort of liked that the Pure were affected worse by silver.

Then again, didn't they change the lore behind WHY Silver is a bane to werewolves, to be something less of a punishment/curse?

I haven't actually played Werewolf since I picked up the 2e book. My WtF x PtH game used a weird mix of 1e rules plus what I could find of 2e without actually owning a copy.

Theoretically, you could get a fetish that is a piercing or implant that can work around your regeneration though.

I think anything that you could subconsciously perceive as part of "yourself" could be integrated and not be rejected by healing and transformation, IF you're not too far towards Flesh on Harmony. Basically using similar logic to letting your clothes transition to be part of your Spirit. So you could have implants and piercings put in with your consent, but anything forced would get pushed out, so long as your Harmony is near balanced or leaning to Spirit.

2e has healing be much stronger than Blood of the Wolf had so it isn't a reliable source. For example werewolves don't scar (outside of silver) and they automatically regrow limbs and organs once they heal the damage that inflicted it without having to wait ages or spending willpower dots.

Unrelated to figuring out the question, but I kind of like how via porting between editions a ST can easily adjust the desired power level for Werewolf. As opposed to say, Awakening, where I never want to touch anything mechanically 1e specific again except for maybe ideas for spells.

[The Jack]

How far does the Garou/Uratha healing factor go? Does it, for example, remove all scars? Undo cosmetic surgery? Remove implants/piercings? This is definitely not because I'm trying to extrapolate setting details (he sarcasmed).

I don't know much about Uratha, but for garou:

Typically, the healing factor removes all scars except the ones that would've killed you; the final blow that put you below incapacitated with lethal/agg damage before you raged back to life, your battle scars. However, you can also get permanent scars for a long time of gruesome surgery, torture with silver implements, long term wrym exposure or pre-change injuries/modifications.

Tattoos are certainly a big deal for garou, it doesn't get rid of them (though it probably won't heal them back if they get slashed)
For piercings, I'm not entirely sure. Fetish piercings are certainly fine, but perhaps dedication's enough to stop em from healing wrongly/healing out.


For implants, you absolutely need them to be fetishes for them to work. Maybe it's wrong to equate fake tits with cybernetic organs, but that's almost certainly the way it goes. Garou culture really won't appreciate fake boobs and likely has reservations about subdermal implants and holes, especially when you've deigned to trap a spirit in them to get them working. Glass walkers are the tribe for you but even they have limits.
If they are fetishes and you've got a spirit attuned to them, it'll always work.

[Milo v3]

Just got a response from one of the Werewolf the Forsaken 2e devs.

Re: Healing - the approach we’re likely to take is ‘whatever works for your character’. As it says in 2E:

Every now and again, when a character suffers from an immense, life-threatening wound, where another strike might just put her down for good, she doesn't regenerate for the turn. Explain how the body just…stops. The flesh falls flaccid. Blood sprays. Nothing changes. It's as if she was human. Make her think it's gone. Then, next turn, when she's panicked, it comes back double.

Now, this doesn’t specifically relate to scars and piercings, but it’s telling you that werewolf regeneration isn’t an exact science. The game’s rules say it works a certain way, and that’s true most of the time. But sometimes it isn’t.
Tl:dr - if your characters wants piercings, tattoos, and scars, he can have them. If he doesn’t, that’s fine too.

[The Jack]

I really don't like the liberal interpretation of how things can work in newer editions. 'just handwave it to what you like' is a beacon for laziness, snow flakes, and prompts less investment to the story because there's no rules to the story.

You should heal the same way everyone of your kind heals. You should go with in-universe reasoning to get what you want. Rule of cool aught to be sparing.


There's the gamut DAV20 where a lot of powers are visually whatever you think's cool, and sometimes that works or would've worked: blood magic comes from your belief, Serpentis personalizations make sense through the lense of faith but not so much your personal whims. Other times they really, really don't work; like you've got options on how your fortitude manifests: do you take the visual damage but still work or do things glance off your skin? That's two entirely different disciplines right there!
And I supposed CoD is going to be more leniant because it has less of a mythos and is more open by design, but you're still playing fast and lose when you go that route.

[Milo v3]

I really don't like the liberal interpretation of how things can work in newer editions. 'just handwave it to what you like' is a beacon for laziness, snow flakes, and prompts less investment to the story because there's no rules to the story.

You should heal the same way everyone of your kind heals. You should go with in-universe reasoning to get what you want. Rule of cool aught to be sparing.

Except the reason why they'd said it's a possiblity is From the in-universe information.........?

And I supposed CoD is going to be more leniant because it has less of a mythos and is more open by design, but you're still playing fast and lose when you go that route.

It doesn't have less of a mythos. It has less canon backstory. But there is still mythos there, it's just the game isn't trying to bludgeon you over the head with lore about specific events, instead it tends to be how it's societies work, the metaphysics of the game, the mindsets of the creatures, the types of worlds you travel through. It isn't less mythos, it's just focused in a different direction. It gives you the info so that you can make informed decisions about how x would work wherever in the world, rather than "x city works like y because of z event happened" (it does still have those, but just less than WoD and the writers are fine with two different gamelines descriptions of a location to conflict because there is no canon).

But it is true that people aren't as worried about changing lore to get their games have the themes they desire, because there is no stigma about not following canon like WoD sometimes has. Like, Pijavica clan is normally slavic in origin and extinct, but in my campaign there is a lake that has an ancient blood ooze elder in it that uses the pijavica stats.

[The Jack]

Except the reason why they'd said it's a possiblity is From the in-universe information.........?

That quote isn't relevant to the question. The quote is on wounds not healing in high stress situations, the commentary is about cosmetics, it's completely different.

It doesn't have less of a mythos. It has less canon backstory. But there is still

But it is true that people aren't as worried about changing lore to get their games have the themes they desire, because there is no stigma about not following canon like WoD sometimes has. Like, Pijavica clan is normally slavic in origin and extinct, but in my campaign there is a lake that has an ancient blood ooze elder in it that uses the pijavica stats.

I picked the wrong word, but you understand my intent. CoD is much more open to change.

For WoD, I think a lot of the metaplot's not something I wanna run with, but the sociology/metaphysics is basically sacred. It's clockwork; You change one thing and you can break another.

[The Jack]

Which reminds me.

I was thinking of overhauling obfuscate 1 to make it more in line with masquerade.
-The first dot of the discipline is usually the most used and broadly applicable, obfuscate is the rare discipline that makes the first dot obsolete when you get the second. Obfuscate 1 needs to follow the logic of the rest, because obfuscate is a discipline where 1 is regarded as useless and 2 is almighty.
-It has to be a mind trick, as that's how obfuscate works. Giving obfuscate the quietus silence trick isn't acceptable, because that's not a mind trick, it's a physical power. (also silence is OP)
-More masquerade friendly is always good. The path of least resistance is a wholesome one.

So I was thinking of some of the following, perhaps a mixture. I've got a few ideas how to do this stuff mechanically

A- Obfuscate 1 works like the Arcane background, with an optional increase in potency as the obfuscate rating goes up. When activated, the user seems less concerning and less memorable to strangers, and records of the individual made when the discipline is activated are more likely to get lost or misplaced.

Perhaps the victim passively rolls their willpower against your obfuscate to remember things about you (forgetting details seems natural to them). Should you have acted in a memorable way, their roll is easier, but in such cases they're more likely to remember details about your weapon than you.
This doesn't work on people who know you fairly well, though it would work on them were you in a disguise.

B- Each dot of obfuscate adds to any attempt to seem inconspicuous. we clarify that Obfuscate 2 doesn't work well on people actively looking for you or intruders, or in well lit environs (though rent-a-cops don't tend to be that vigilant) unless your obfuscate rating exceeds their willpower, so obfuscate 1 remains relevant should you try to evade capture or break into a high-security area.

Bonus With later levels:, obfuscate1 can extend to things you're touching or holding. innocuous objects near you are obfuscated at 3, Your car or friend or open carry firearm becomes less important at obfuscate 4 (one before cloak the gathering, which is really about the higher types of mind trickery I think). At level 5 your home seems unimportant, forgettable and easy to miss to an outsider, even if it's opulent and guarded. Perhaps at some level damage made by the vampire, or even a missing person/found corpse, is regarded as less notable by the effects of obfuscate, as it shrouds crime scenes. Maybe that aught to be elder 6+ stuff, I'm not sure.


A is very good for the masquerade but not terribly exciting till higher levels, B is exciting. They both work fantastically in keeping the status quo of vampires. Thoughts? What do you think'd work well in your games? Because I thought of implementing it in a game of mine but somehow I kept going back to thinking of the 'stand still hiding and you're invis' thing.

[Morty]

Hi all!
I recently played a short campaign of Hunter: the Vigil with some friends and really enjoyed it to the point that I'm thinking about running a game myself.
Anyone know any good online resources for stories/campaign ideas that could help?

I've never used it, but the SCP foundation seems to be a mine of Hunter plots.

I've backed the Contagion Chronicle Kickstarter, and... eh. The Contagion just doesn't interest me one bit as a plot element or mechanical element. I think I won't bother keeping up with it and just hope that the stretch goal with crossover mechanics unrelated to the Contagion will be worth it.

[Anonymouswizard]

According to Blood of the Wolf (p21), typical Uratha always-on healing does leave scars as usual, but healing via Essence expenditure heals the flesh perfectly. If an uratha wanted to get rid of scars (say, to heal a limp) conventional surgery would work fine, as would deliberately re-injuring themselves and spending Essence to heal it perfectly.

Implants and piercings are also doable, though their healing means that you have to be quite prompt inserting the desired jewelry unless the werewolf actively suppresses their regeneration (an activity compared to holding your breath). Tattoos are similarly annoying, and often come out different than intended but not impossible. Implants are not specifically mentioned, but would probably face similar challenges. Piercings, implants, tattoo ink, knives, bullets, etc. won't be actively expelled from the body.

I do recommend Blood of the Wolf if you want more of this kind of physiology and psychology info. Most of it should translate over to 2e just fine.

Thanks, I'll certainly look up Blood of the Wolf. I actually tend to find games tendency to dance around this sort of information annoying.

I don't know much about Uratha, but for garou:

Typically, the healing factor removes all scars except the ones that would've killed you; the final blow that put you below incapacitated with lethal/agg damage before you raged back to life, your battle scars. However, you can also get permanent scars for a long time of gruesome surgery, torture with silver implements, long term wrym exposure or pre-change injuries/modifications.

Tattoos are certainly a big deal for garou, it doesn't get rid of them (though it probably won't heal them back if they get slashed)
For piercings, I'm not entirely sure. Fetish piercings are certainly fine, but perhaps dedication's enough to stop em from healing wrongly/healing out.


For implants, you absolutely need them to be fetishes for them to work. Maybe it's wrong to equate fake tits with cybernetic organs, but that's almost certainly the way it goes. Garou culture really won't appreciate fake boobs and likely has reservations about subdermal implants and holes, especially when you've deigned to trap a spirit in them to get them working. Glass walkers are the tribe for you but even they have limits.
If they are fetishes and you've got a spirit attuned to them, it'll always work.

Again, thanks. Although I guess this'll all be changed when W5 comes out.

Also, in all seriousness, I've discovered that only about three Apocalypse tribes appeal to me, and they're all the more modern ones. Those three being the Bone Gnawers, the Children of Gaia, and especially the Glass Walkers. The Shadow Lords would be on that list if they were just a little more noble and a little less ruthless (although they are still better than the Silver Fangs).

I've never used it, but the SCP foundation seems to be a mine of Hunter plots.

Yeah, especially if you're willing to have things be increcibly out there. The SCP Foundation itself feels a lot like a Hunter Conspiracy.

[The Jack]

Again, thanks. Although I guess this'll all be changed when W5 comes out.

Don't remind me

Also, in all seriousness, I've discovered that only about three Apocalypse tribes appeal to me, and they're all the more modern ones. Those three being the Bone Gnawers, the Children of Gaia, and especially the Glass Walkers.

All the tribes are really fun to play, even the ones you disagree with. I'd say especially the tribes you disagree with, but I really don't care for the wendigo, because I don't wanna play a crude native stereotype, and i don't care for the CoG, because even though they've got some of the best abilities I don't wanna play a smug social justice strawman or a character defined as -not a smug social justice strawman-, they're very not-what-werewolf-is about if you go for the later.

Fianna have hidden depth, but I'd say they're still a weaker tribe too.
Stargazers and to some extent silent striders don't fit the theme, but they're hilarious to play with in the hands of someone skilled.

So like, 10/13 are good going.
Being a disagreeable rage monster is the highlight of the game. Playing a moderate is fine for entry but the game's titular monsters are anger-powered terrorists of the fundamental-extreme variety; get into the mindset. Glass walkers are best when they're half machine and toting 20mm, not when they're building community centers.

[Anonymouswizard]

Being a disagreeable rage monster is the highlight of the game. Playing a moderate is fine for entry but the game's titular monsters are anger-powered terrorists of the fundamental-extreme variety; get into the mindset. Glass walkers are best when they're half machine and toting 20mm, not when they're building community centers.

To be fair the community centres are more a Children of Gaia thing

In all seriousness, yeah. While most of my characters never quite get to that level, there's an awareness that you're still a supernaturally angry eco-terrorist. I think my favourite character I ever got to play was a Children of Gaia journalist who turned out to be the most hardline of the pack by far (partially due to the group being new). She was theoretically personable but quickly showing themselves to be angry*, incredibly distrustful of Ronin for a Child of Gaia (to the point where she almost caused our first meeting with a Ronin sept to descend into violence), and being overly concerned with doing things right. Because there's no good destroying a Pentex facility if they're just going to be back in a few months (which is why she was a journalist, although that was back before I realised that I was never going to have the spare Willpower to cover my Rage). Plus she was always armed, I think with a relatively light pistol and knife but everybody else was entirely reliant on natural weapons.

The scary thing is, by the standards of the setting as written (although not as run, Garou almost seemed to be hippies) she was a moderate. The only place she was scarily fundementalist was her belief that all Ronin were doomed to become Black Spiral Dancers, which caused a ton of friction with the pack's Silver Fang and Get of Fenris. But if I was to play again I'd certainly make a much more dedicated character, one who uses human society as a useful tool instead of fully taking part.

* I think my 3 Rage Ragabash ended up showing their anger more than the 10 Rage Ahroun, despite us both having the same Willpower.

[The Jack]

Hating Ronin is an extremely normal view. You allow them an easy time and you set a terrible precident. Soon more garou will take the easy way out of the war for gaia, and when the shames outnumber the packs, there's no saving gaia.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hating Ronin is an extremely normal view. You allow them an easy time and you set a terrible precident. Soon more garou will take the easy way out of the war for gaia, and when the shames outnumber the packs, there's no saving gaia.

Sure, which was exactly character's problem with them. She was just quite hard-line for the CoG, her first reaction to learning about a Ronin sept was to suggest sending some Ahrouns in to wipe them out, when she heard about their 'attempts to start a new Tribe' she immediately began suspecting a BSD ploy and got annoyed when the Ronin got in the way of her investigating. Also demanded that they turned over any Caren's they had to the Garou nation, because they don't know how to deal with them or to avoid having the when corrupt them.

Which is why it was so bizarre to find a Silver Fang Galliard accepting this stuff at face value. He should have joined me when I shifted to Glabro* instead of trying to defuse the situation (dude was the one with the Klaive as well). My character might have been a little bit overboard for a stereotypical member of her Tribe, but she fit right in with the expected Garou nation response (take away all their resources until they agree to actually fight the Wyrm is the bare minimum as I understand).

* I wanted to be clear that I expected to fight but didn't want to take Crinos within a handful of meters of the street.

[The Jack]

Would've totally dobbed in the silver fang for not doing the job. Embarrassment to the tribe; no wonder the royalty are suspected of madness when they let cubs like that in.
It's a new player problem. They can't jump head first into the authoritarian attitudes expected of them. They dont fear/respect elders enough, they want to play nice, they're eager to hear the points of view of their enemies and want to challebge the status quo. I'm convinced v5 was made by people who just don't get it, because they've done their best to reduce authoritive structure.

A new player goes in thinking the factions are all backwards and wants to challenge them, a veteran embraces every fascist notion, shouts down all naysayers, and commits war crimes for the good of the people.

[Anonymouswizard]

So there I was, trying to lead by example, and the Falcon just started talking to the good for nothing deserters...

I mean, I wouldn't mind if W5 had a bit more unity between the Tribes, sorted out the Red Talon issue, maybe clean up the Silver Fangs and focus on why they make good leaders, but yeah I don't look forward to what I expect, which is the fracturing of the Garou Nation and Ronin gaining more prominence and respect. Because like it or not unity and duty are a big part of Werewolf, and Ronin are rightly disliked for turning their back on that. The Garou might be continually biting at reach other's heels, but they still have nowhere near the infighting that, for example, the Camarilla or the Traditions have.

[The Jack]

What red talon issue?
The wendigo are the big problem.
Universal pure breed, wealth (in money, education and fetishes), and they are still gaia's chosen who start with 7/5/3. With every other garou the absolute worst silver fang is going to have four* dice on a social roll and thus functionally 4 charisma, 4 manipulation and 3 appearance*, which is an amazing low bar.

*from wounds/deformities

I recall them responding to 'last king of the garou' prophecy with 'another silver fang, but a queen!' Which is so agressively contemporary that it's painful; giving the Margrave (and thus the shadow lords) rule would've been a far more interesting, meaningful and logical choice for both the nation as a whole and the two tribes.

I am expecting Kindly treated fera, more equal ronin in line with the treatment of thin bloods in v5, a doubling down on WoD's australia/america/europe<asia/africa notions, the children of gaia being the best tribe (even though the CoG would be causing the biggest problems right now), some way to change gender easily (as was given with v5) to undermine the black furies, the young being more important than the old.... anything you can screw up in vampire you can screw up in werewolf tenfold. It's a more charged game and it lampoons activism: a disaster waiting to happen.

[Anonymouswizard]

What red talon issue?
The wendigo are the big problem.
Universal pure breed, wealth (in money, education and fetishes), and they are still gaia's chosen who start with 7/5/3. With every other garou the absolute worst silver fang is going to have four* dice on a social roll and thus functionally 4 charisma, 4 manipulation and 3 appearance*, which is an amazing low bar.

*from wounds/deformities

Just referencing the fact that before W20 Red Talons did not play nice with humans at all. But I understand that W20 clears that up. As I understand the Wendigo are also a massive massive problem, but the only times I've played we stayed will away from the Americas, because we wanted to set the game closer to home, and so the RTs were a bigger problem for us.

I'm trying to remember how Pure Breed works again, but I've been coming to the conclusion that it does too much. Although it does explain why Tribes such as the Glass Walkers who just don't care about it aren't as liked as everybody else.

I recall them responding to 'last king of the garou' prophecy with 'another silver fang, but a queen!' Which is so agressively contemporary that it's painful; giving the Margrave (and thus the shadow lords) rule would've been a far more interesting, meaningful and logical choice for both the nation as a whole and the two tribes.

Uhhhhhhhhhhh....

Am I the only one who assumed that Garou don't have gendered words for monarchs? Anyway yeah, that is silly, even if they don't want to go with the Margrave there's a lot of other routes they could go, including just not having anybody in that top position of authority. I don't have any problem with the ruler of the Garou being female, but the fact is that the Silver Fangs were meant to be on their last legs as the leaders of the Garou. Having them fall and the Shadow Lords or another Tribe take over gives the Fangs soon the opportunity for character development.

I am expecting Kindly treated fera, more equal ronin in line with the treatment of thin bloods in v5, a doubling down on WoD's australia/america/europe<asia/africa notions, the children of gaia being the best tribe (even though the CoG would be causing the biggest problems right now), some way to change gender easily (as was given with v5) to undermine the black furies, the young being more important than the old.... anything you can screw up in vampire you can screw up in werewolf tenfold. It's a more charged game and it lampoons activism: a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm expecting most of that, and while I'd happily accept a sex change Gift or Rite I'd need the writers to show that Garou society is incredibly conservative and is not going to deal with pups not being cis in a good way at all. It can be there, but it cannot be used.

Although I'll note that Werewolf was more on the side of the young from the get beginning, with at least some of the elder Garou accepting that the young pushing for change is natural. It's just that they were expected to stop complaining and earn some respect/renown if they want arrive responsibility.

But I am dreading more equal Ronin. The Garou are fighting a losing war, they cannot afford to give pups the idea that they can just dessert and it'll all be okay. The Ronin aren't equal because Garou are conservative, extremists, and literally fighting the universal force of decay.


In all honesty, what I'd like to see is a second edition of Demon: the Fallen. It's my favourite of the gamelines, partially due to it half balancing the mythology of Vampire with the world as seen in Werewolf and Mage, but mostly because it's just interesting. And I want to see that brought forward, what have Demons done with fifteen years to build a new identity in the world? How do they react to discovering the Umbra? And other such ideas.

[Morty]

I've never cared about Apocalypse and I care even less about its fifth edition incarnation, but I now feel a strange sympathy for it for some mysterious reason.

[Rater202]

I noticed that this was left out before: Holden Shearer also did a companion to exalted versus Wod

It's just under 100 pages: It's half optional rules, charms, and errata(miss exalted magic items? Well, they're still gone but now there are rules for making WoD magic items yourself) and Half Holden figuring out how to do Alchemicals and Infernals in ways that felt appropriate to the WoD setting.

Notably, Infernals were buried Deep under the thousand Hells and tens of thousands of years of exposure to the Yomi Kings and various Sinners has made each one a Caste of One with the influences of those Hells combining with rthat of a specific Yozi making something that's recognizable as a Green Sun Prince but has a flavor keyed into the Kindred of the East.

Alchemicals are "in this AU The Computer in Autocthonia is just Autochthon screwing with the people who woke him up, he was playig a Long Con but then sensed the Exalted returning, panicked, and cannibalized both his own resources--including souls that once bore Exaltations--and Technocracy Reosources to craft a Dozen or So Exaltations." They're based on Alchemicals from the "Modern" Shard in Exalted 2e and the default assuption is that you just kind of found one's physical vessel and now you're a cyborg on the run from the Men in Black(Technocracy)

[fishyfishyfishy]

I can't bring myself to support anything by Holden after everything he was accused of, the behavior he exhibited towards others before he was let go by Onyx Path Publishing, and especially how he's acted afterwards.

[Rater202]

Um, I'm not planning to run anything--I don't have the books or the time to reconcile system differences--but am I the only one who thinks that a game where the players are all Abominations--the result of a werewolf being embraced and botching the save to die peacefully--trying to survive in a world that hates them caught between two societies that likewise want them dead might be fun?

[lightningcat]

Um, I'm not planning to run anything--I don't have the books or the time to reconcile system differences--but am I the only one who thinks that a game where the players are all Abominations--the result of a werewolf being embraced and botching the save to die peacefully--trying to survive in a world that hates them caught between two societies that likewise want them dead might be fun?

This might work better as a oneshot then a campaign. Hanero is brutal to abominations: all dice pools are halved unless willpower is spent. But in a oneshot you could give a reason that that penalty is reduced or ignored for the length of the adventure, plus it would encourage a sacrifical ending.

[Rater202]

This might work better as a oneshot then a campaign. Hanero is brutal to abominations: all dice pools are halved unless willpower is spent. But in a oneshot you could give a reason that that penalty is reduced or ignored for the length of the adventure, plus it would encourage a sacrifical ending.

I mean, whatever handwave is used to justify multiple Abominations in the same location at the same time(possibly a Blod Mage or Rogue True Mage messing with something they shouldn't have, off the top of my head) could probably handwave that so the focus could be more on survival, but otherwise yeah you've got a point.

[Anonymouswizard]

I've never cared about Apocalypse and I care even less about its fifth edition incarnation, but I now feel a strange sympathy for it for some mysterious reason.

A lot of my worries is that Werewolf is a very different game to vampire. While I might dislike the setting changes (particularly the fracturing of the Tremere and Thin-Bloods being more important), it is at it's core a return to the themes of 1e and early 2e, and none of the changes make running Camarilla-focused games difficult, let alone impossible.

Making the equivalent changes in Werewolf would completely change the game, especially the continually dreaded rumoured change of splitting the Garou Nation. On the other hand Werewolf needs to reinvent itself a lot more than Vampire did, but at the same time needs to dodge the implications of being alt-right even more because of how conservative Garou Society is. On the other hand suggestions that Garou society hasn't changed that much (Silver Fang Queen!) are worrying because an entirely new generation is in charge. As long as the focus is where it should be and the Garou aren't too different it should be fine, especially as I suspect that kinfolk will get the 'Thin-Blood treatment' of having some unique powers to be more viable in mixed groups. But it's a hard line to walk, and it could very easily turn into a highly politicised game with a young versus old focus it didn't have before.

Um, I'm not planning to run anything--I don't have the books or the time to reconcile system differences--but am I the only one who thinks that a game where the players are all Abominations--the result of a werewolf being embraced and botching the save to die peacefully--trying to survive in a world that hates them caught between two societies that likewise want them dead might be fun?

Honestly, the system differences aren't that big. Just decide if you want to use the Vampire or Werewolf quirks for things like combat and specialties, and it'll all work generally smoothly (there will be a few bumps, but it'll work).

Otherwise, it would probably be fun, but likely needs to be short to avoid getting repetitive.

[The Jack]

1: It's not a return to the core themes of 1st/2nd edition, or at least we're not on the same page as to what the core themes are. 1/2nd edition states 'morality is chosen, not ordained' whilst v5 ordains every aspect of morality. The lines become clear cut, you're not vicariously learning through example, the author is telling you what kind of values your character needs to have to play people, in the story the people the authors agree with are stunning and brave whilst their opposition is evil and stupid. They replaced the ladder vampire was made of with a symetrical conflict. It thematically is not vampire.

2. Garou aren't alt right but they are classically fascists. It doesn't matter if they're Get, Wendigo or Children of Gaia: They're tight knit groups that militantly hate outsiders and deviants, who live in compounds (for bonus points), have a strict hierachy and strong sense of social order. The rank and renown system is literally a measure of how you can adhere to that order. they also have an enemy they can blame for everything wrong with the world. The most liberal tribe are the black spiral dancers.

You can't get rid of that. Each gaian tribe is it's own echo chamber which sincerely believes the world would be fixed if everyone else was just like them.

It would be fundamentally wrong to try to change this, because this is fundamentally what werewolf the apocalypse is about .

M20 tried to liberalize the traditions;everybody got their inclusive/self made names, and it undermined a good deal of what mage was about. With werewolf it isn't just a good deal of undermining to take away the fascist undertones, it'd undo the game in it's entirity. It's like peace treaties in warhammer 40k or realistic firearms in Ratchet and clank; you just can't do it.

[Ignimortis]

1: It's not a return to the core themes of 1st/2nd edition, or at least we're not on the same page as to what the core themes are. 1/2nd edition states 'morality is chosen, not ordained' whilst v5 ordains every aspect of morality. The lines become clear cut, you're not vicariously learning through example, the author is telling you what kind of values your character needs to have to play people, in the story the people they agree with are stunning and brave whilst their opposition is evil and stupid. They replaced the ladder vampire was made of with a synetrical conflict. It thematically is not vampire.

2. Garou aren't alt right but they are classically fascists. It doesn't matter if they're Get, Wendigo or Children of Gaia: They're tight knit groups that militantly hate outsiders and deviants, who live in compounds (for bonus points), have a strict hierachy and strong sense of social order. The rank and renown system is literally a measure of how you can adhere to that order. they also have an enemy they can blame for everything wrong with the world. The most liberal tribe are the black spiral dancers.

You can't get rid of that. Each gaian tribe is it's own echo chamber which sincerely believes the world would be fixed if everyone else was just like them.

It would be fundamentally wrong to try to change this, because this is fundamentally what werewolf the apocalypse is about .

M20 tried to liberalize the traditions;everybody got their inclusive/self made names, and it undermined a good deal of what mage was about. With werewolf it isn't just a good deal of undermining to take away the fascist undertones, it'd undo the game in it's entirity. It's like peace treaties in warhammer 40k or realistic firearms in Ratchet and clank; you just can't do it.

I like you. You're talking sense.

[Anonymouswizard]

1: It's not a return to the core themes of 1st/2nd edition, or at least we're not on the same page as to what the core themes are. 1/2nd edition states 'morality is chosen, not ordained' whilst v5 ordains every aspect of morality. The lines become clear cut, you're not vicariously learning through example, the author is telling you what kind of values your character needs to have to play people, in the story the people they agree with are stunning and brave whilst their opposition is evil and stupid. They replaced the ladder vampire was made of with a synetrical conflict. It thematically is not vampire.

I don't own my 2e corebook anymore, but I remember Humanity being very ordained and clear cut. Back then you couldn't even pick paths, those were in Player's Guide to the Sabbat, you were stuck with Humanity. So yeah, that's not really unique to V5.

On the other hand I am not happy that the Anarchs became so powerful, because it ruins V5's attempts to return to an old versus young conflict. The Anarchs were smaller than the Camarilla and mostly younger, even with 300 year old members they didn't have the Meths the Camarilla did, and on the back foot everywhere except the West Coast of the USA. Them being equal in power just doesn't fit as 'fight the system!'.

2. Garou aren't alt right but they are classically fascists. It doesn't matter if they're Get, Wendigo or Children of Gaia: They're tight knit groups that militantly hate outsiders and deviants, who live in compounds (for bonus points), have a strict hierachy and strong sense of social order. The rank and renown system is literally a measure of how you can adhere to that order. they also have an enemy they can blame for everything wrong with the world. The most liberal tribe are the black spiral dancers.

You can't get rid of that. Each gaian tribe is it's own echo chamber which sincerely believes the world would be fixed if everyone else was just like them.

It would be fundamentally wrong to try to change this, because this is fundamentally what werewolf the apocalypse is about .

M20 tried to liberalize the traditions;everybody got their inclusive/self made names, and it undermined a good deal of what mage was about. With werewolf it isn't just a good deal of undermining to take away the fascist undertones, it'd undo the game in it's entirity. It's like peace treaties in warhammer 40k or realistic firearms in Ratchet and clank; you just can't do it.

You're right. But I still expect such claims.

Well I'm now in possession of my own V5 corebook, because I don't want to be accused of complaining about books I don't read, and because tbh I'd rather be paying V5 than no Vampire.

[The Jack]

Humanity was pretty clear cut, yes, but that was kinda it. There was no 'anarchs good, cammy bad' or 'good beliefs of brujah, bad beliefs of brujah.'

And on a mechanical note, you now need attachments and creeds to... i think gain willpower? Anyhow, the game explicitly excludes attachments/creeds/philosophies that it deems evil. If you are a criminal, it all has to be about loyalty and honourable codes, there is nothing there for you if you wanted a more individualist criminal; you must be nice because bad people are mechanically incompatible with the vision that the creators have... it's unashamedly contrived.

I was happy with just picking a nature/demeanour and acting it out .