OOTS #1059 - The Discussion Thread

[8BitNinja]

I doubt the giants waiting in ambush for the Mechane will find three overly-rouged female frost giants suddenly appearing all that plausible.

You never know, they might suddenly get Attenton Defici- Hey look at that squirrel!

[Green Elf]

Why isn't Haley dead (realistically. I know there's plot armor.) After two hits of a giant axe by a frost giant? She was also hit on the ground causing more damage.

[JumboWheat01]

Why isn't Haley dead (realistically. I know there's plot armor.) After two hits of a giant axe by a frost giant? She was also hit on the ground causing more damage.

It's quite possible she's quaffing healing potions when the frames aren't focused on her. She is a Rogue after all, being quick of hand and sneaky is kinda in the job description.

[Erys]

Why isn't Haley dead (realistically. I know there's plot armor.) After two hits of a giant axe by a frost giant? She was also hit on the ground causing more damage.

This comic is based off a game. In that game, high level characters tend to have good amounts of hitpoints. Plenty enough to take several more hits in fact.

[jamiah93]

Did the giant dispel the Suggestion?

[Jasdoif]

Did the giant dispel the Suggestion?

Vaarsuvius worded the suggestion to let the Mechane pass. The Mechane has since passed, as Haley said, so the terms of the suggestion have been met; the spell ended as a result.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Yes, but your example clerics all have a deity, so the deity weapon is default. A Cleric gets his power from one source. Either one deity, or one cause (like Nature for a Druid, or Good for a non-deity-specific Cleric for example).

A cause is not the same as a domain. Look at the Paladin. Under religion, it says that a Paladin need not devote herself to a single deity, devotion to righteousness is enough. Not law, or good, but righteousness.

A LG cleric could just as easily devote themselves to the cause of righteousness instead of a deity. But that cleric could choose several domains to represent their specific spiritual inclination. Law, Good, Protection, Healing, War, and Strength are a few options.

However, this actually does not matter to the original point.

A cleric that did not choose a deity who casts Spiritual Weapon summons a weapon based on their alignment, not their source of divine power.

[factotum]

Why isn't Haley dead (realistically. I know there's plot armor.) After two hits of a giant axe by a frost giant? She was also hit on the ground causing more damage.

A level 15 Rogue with no Constitution bonus would expect to have 55 hit points on average, and that's plenty enough to tank a couple of 3d6 + 13 axe hits (average damage 23 each). That's just on average, of course--she could have rolled well for HP (and/or have a Con bonus), and the giant could have rolled poorly for *his* damage.

[theasl]

You never know, they might suddenly get Attenton Defici- Hey look at that squirrel!

I don't think it's the frost giants who have to worry about ADD

[danielxcutter]

So long as nobody gets cold feet.

Ice work on the puns, guys!

[Werbaer]

Why isn't Haley dead (realistically. I know there's plot armor.) After two hits of a giant axe by a frost giant? She was also hit on the ground causing more damage.

She drank a potion at the start of #1058.

After that, she has been hit by frostbite, missed by a morning star, fallen a minimal amount, evaded a giant axe, and got hit by a spiritual axe.

I estimate she should have half of her hit points left.

[Finagle]

The giantess cleric doesn't have swirly eyes any more. What happened? The head cleric's order snapped her out of it? I thought she only listened to Vaarsuvius' commands?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The giantess cleric doesn't have swirly eyes any more. What happened? The head cleric's order snapped her out of it? I thought she only listened to Vaarsuvius' commands?

From a few post above yours:

Vaarsuvius worded the suggestion to let the Mechane pass. The Mechane has since passed, as Haley said, so the terms of the suggestion have been met; the spell ended as a result.

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

Wow, took less time than expected for the Mechane to pass by. How the hell is Belkar ever going to catch up? If it only takes 2 turns to enter and leave a giant's range, going down the pass to kill giants seems mostly pointless, because by the time they are killed they are pretty much already out of range anyways... Sure, a few kills down the path can prevent future attacks, but that was quite a lot of giants we saw...

And with this speed in mind, V's suggestion seems particularly poorly worded. Not only did it not protect them during its duration, but it only lasted a few rounds. They are now free to pursue the Mechane as soon as it got out of range?

[Quebbster]

V may have to cast Bugsby's Halfling-retrieving Hand eventually...

[Quartz]

All I have to say is, that dispel magic must have had one HELL of a lucky roll.

Don't be so sure. V's spell was Overland Flight, not Fly. And that cleric has at least 25 HD (14 from Frost Giant and 11 from Cleric, likely 12 for BB plus Greater Dispel Magic) and could have taken Practiced Spellcaster twice for +8 caster levels from his monster levels. Plus at 25+ HD the cleric is an Epic character so could have taken an appropriate epic feat, though none come to mind as particularly appropriate.

Seriously, as written dispel magic gets at best a +10 to its roll.

+20 for Greater Dispel Magic.

That giant had to roll 16 or higher TWICE IN A ROW.

8 or more for V, less for Haley.

Also lucky they didn't have any other active effects.

Not really. An area effect dispel stops after dispelling the first spell per PC:

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

[Crusher]

Don't be so sure. V's spell was Overland Flight, not Fly. And that cleric has at least 25 HD (14 from Frost Giant and 11 from Cleric, likely 12 for BB plus Greater Dispel Magic) and could have taken Practiced Spellcaster twice for +8 caster levels from his monster levels. Plus at 25+ HD the cleric is an Epic character so could have taken an appropriate epic feat, though none come to mind as particularly appropriate.



+20 for Greater Dispel Magic.



8 or more for V, less for Haley.



Not really. An area effect dispel stops after dispelling the first spell per PC:

You're probably a little high on the HD and level assumptions. Remember, it was the female cleric who cast Dispel Magic, not the Elder who cast Blade Barrier.

[Snails]

Why isn't Haley dead (realistically. I know there's plot armor.) After two hits of a giant axe by a frost giant? She was also hit on the ground causing more damage.

OotS follows the common literary convention that PCs and significant NPCs very often have more staying power in a fight than pure logic suggests is likely. The fact that the metaphysics of the OotSverse bears a strong semblance to D&D rules may further color our expectations, in a way that the actual action in comic often varies from.

The Giant has been highly consistent on this topic. So as a work primarily of storytelling art, rather than a depiction of (some kind of) "realism", I accept the Giant's work as living up to reasonable expectations.

Note that the results we see are always within the realm of plausibly within the rules, especially when we consider how under-optimized most everyone is.

(It is not just Haley, or just the PCs. For example, actually statted out, with a reasonable battle plan, Soon and friends would have dusted Xykon in less than three rounds; because even 30 levels of undead sorceror yields ballpark 200 HPs or less, which ain't much when in when you let a epic-level melee specialist start hitting you. The Giant could have worked around "realism" here and gotten the same result, but the battle would have been less interesting to watch.)

[Jasdoif]

The Giant has been highly consistent on this topic. So as a work primarily of storytelling art, rather than a depiction of (some kind of) "realism", I accept the Giant's work as living up to reasonable expectations.

The Giant's directly talked about this, too:

My honest suggestion at this point is for everyone to toughen up their respective suspensions of disbelief and realize that this is a crazy fantasy comedy and that unbelievable stuff will happen, like, a lot.

[ti'esar]

I'm surprised this is coming up after the climax of the last book, in which Roy survived being impaled by a triceratops and Tarquin mostly just took ego damage from falling hundreds of feet.

[Snails]

I'm surprised this is coming up after the climax of the last book, in which Roy survived being impaled by a triceratops and Tarquin mostly just took ego damage from falling hundreds of feet.

Those are a kind of visual "gag" which are explicitly allowed, because they are predicted by common interpretations of the D&D rules. Similar gags have been with us all along, I would argue. In fact, the one of the original raison d'etres of the comic was to explore such kinds of humor, where rules imply a result that can appear bizarre (e.g. Belkar's shrinking daggers with the shift to 3.5).

This discussion here is whether a certain interpretation of the rules is valid enough that it might be considered weird that Haley is still conscious.

One could argue that these are two sides of the same coin. I would say otherwise, FWIW, but the difference is hardly important.

[factotum]

I'm surprised this is coming up after the climax of the last book, in which Roy survived being impaled by a triceratops and Tarquin mostly just took ego damage from falling hundreds of feet.

Both Roy and Tarquin are warriors with heavy armour--e.g. tanks, if this were an MMO. They're expected to be durable. Rogues, not so much.

[8BitNinja]

I don't think it's the frost giants who have to worry about ADD

Oops, wrong game. Flaws do not mean automatic feats in D&D (at least the version I play).

If that was the case, I would have the physical features of the Black Knight from Monty Python in exchange for invincibility and time travel.

[Peelee]

Oops, wrong game. Flaws do not mean automatic feats in D&D (at least the version I play).

If that was the case, I would have the physical features of the Black Knight from Monty Python in exchange for invincibility and time travel.

Funny you should say that. Flaws-for-feats is a variant rule in either Unearthed Arcana or one of the Complete books, but as a variant rule, it's still not really standard in most games, I'd expect. Maxes out at two, and the given flaws can be pretty harsh to offset the feat bonus.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I think it was in the original Unearthed Arcana, so probably also in the 3.5 version as well. And they had plenty in DRAGON over the years.

[Snails]

Funny you should say that. Flaws-for-feats is a variant rule in either Unearthed Arcana or one of the Complete books, but as a variant rule, it's still not really standard in most games, I'd expect. Maxes out at two, and the given flaws can be pretty harsh to offset the feat bonus.

For most games, it does not really improve the play. If the flaw is minor, then it becomes a no brainer that should be baked into the normal char gen system. If the flaw is major, then players have an even stronger incentive to minmax, and build their PCs into "glass cannons". In either case, it tends to be harder on the DM to keep the game fun for all.

[F.Harr]

Oh dear. That ain't good.

[Stealth Marmot]

It occurred to me to look up the Cleric Spell Blade Barrier when I saw that Frost Giant cast it. 6th level. Requires 11 levels in cleric to cast.

A Frost Giant is base CR 9. You add 1 for every level in a character class.

THAT FROST GIANT HAS THE CR OF THE TARRASQUE! Minimum!

And his ECL is 29. He is literally an epic level encounter.

Assuming the group survives this, there had better be some levels for them in it.

[nyjastul69]

It occurred to me to look up the Cleric Spell Blade Barrier when I saw that Frost Giant cast it. 6th level. Requires 11 levels in cleric to cast.

A Frost Giant is base CR 9. You add 1 for every level in a character class.

THAT FROST GIANT HAS THE CR OF THE TARRASQUE! Minimum!

And his ECL is 29. He is literally an epic level encounter.

Assuming the group survives this, there had better be some levels for them in it.

The CR is not quite that high. The cleric levels are nonassociated in this case.

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

[Beowulf DW]

A PRISMATIC SPELL!!!! *triggered*

Seriously, though, the vast majority of my various characters' deaths had to do with that family of spells.