Dragon Ball Super

[Delicious Taffy]

So, how about that Gohan-versus-Lavender fight? That sure was a worthwhile thing to talk about. Just two dudes fighting each other in an arena, one-on-one, nothing to muddy it up.

[Rater202]

Even ignoring that, I don't think Goku will become strong enough to challenge Zeno, at least not this arc.

"I mastered the Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken! Kaioken X20!"

Alternativly: Vegeta and I trained to control our ki better, so here's Vegito!

Or "Fusion Ha!"

Or "Buu, absorb everyone and use our power to save the day!"

Or Ten Man Kamehameha.

[golentan]

Even ignoring that, I don't think Goku will become strong enough to challenge Zeno, at least not this arc.

When namek started, Frieza was an unstoppable force whose minions were a multiple-character-ending threat even taken on one at a time, and who viewed most of those minions as expendable and weak as pieces of kleenex.

By the end, Goku was ready to quit because Frieza was too weak to be taken seriously as a threat until Frieza kept pushing, and the entire present cast had taken him on in at least a delaying action in forms way more powerful than the one he used to cow the galaxy into submission.

[Xihirli]

Hey; we'll see. I'm standing by my prediction, though.

[Lord Raziere]

Do you really not see the difference in the examples you keep giving and having an arc centered around Goku killing a child who views him as a friend? Or are you just being difficult?

Yeah a "child" that has been around for eternity and sees nothing wrong with blowing up Universes for petty offenses of a single person. Not forgiving that.

Also @ Rater: Twelve Universe Spirit Bomb! Twelve Universe Spirit Super Saiyan! Super Saiyan Triangle! Twelve Universe Spirit bomb Kaio-Ken! Good Zamasu Resurrection Attack! Evil Containment Wave! Gohan Being Useful! (Remember, he technically DOES have more potential than Goku) etc.

also, its perfectly possible that the Zenos will eventually disagree and attack each other, thus weakening the one that survives enough to kill them.

[Lemmy]

Also, they might transform into a more adult-like form... Transformation isn't exactly rare in Dragon Ball...

[Frozen_Feet]

Just to clear something up, the Super Dragon Balls weren't made by Zeno, but by an individual called Zalama. Zalama is apparently the Dragon God, what this entails or means or if its even relevant is up in the air.

Yes, this is what I meant. this furthermore proves my point: why would a supposedly omnipotent being have an attendant make Dragon Balls for him?

Remember the origin story for the first set of dragon balls introduced: a god made the dragon who powers the orbs. Without god, the dragon dies. The god may not be bale to do everything by themselves, but with their dragon they can.

So if DBS continues following the same pattern as the series so far, it's like Zeno created the Dragon, and the Dragon is useless without Zeno. Which loops back to my earlier comment: "Zeno had made the device which can grant any wish" is not a good argument against Zeno's omnipotence.

Furthermore, the Wishing Planets can be used by people who are not Zeno. So their existence doesn't really prove anything about Zeno, because it's not certain they even exist for his benefit.

Let us be more logical and realistic: Zeno took the rulership of all reality because he can kill the most people in a single blow, then he frightened everyone into doing his bidding like any tyrant then ordered Zalama to make the Dragon Balls for his own petty desires complete with the "pwease" command at the end to summon them. Somewhere along the line he made up a thing about balance of Creation and destruction- something that hasn't been really explained in any detail or made any particular importance to any plot. Its supposedly a thing yet we haven't been given any good reason why it is a thing.

This comes off as neither logical nor realistic, only cynical. It all boils down to your earlier line: "ruler always lie to justify their rule". But this is not a hard axiom of reality in our world, and certainly isn't in Dragon Ball. Most of the Gods have been shown to be nothing but benign. And again, nothing we've seen of Zeno demonstrates the level of deviousness ascribed to him here. You're taking his deviousness as a premise and then interpreting all events in that light; but without that premise, the evidence for your position borders on non-existent.

Furthermore there is the infinite void outside the twelve universes- isn't this already destruction? Destruction is Zero. There is no "negative" to Creation's positive. Destruction is removal of existence, a non-existence, the void is the purest expression of Destruction, not the null state. You cannot get more destroyed than Zero, therefore the logic that Zero is balanced, does not hold.

This is pure nonsense.

Nothingness is, by definition, the null state - that is what the word "null" means.

Nothingness is without qualifier - it is neither positive nor negative, just like zero is neither positive nor negative number.

Destruction is negative; it is anti-creation. When I say "the sum of each individual universe is zero" I mean that when you put Gods of Creation and everything they've made on one side and Gods of Destruction and everything they can destroy on the other side, they even out to zero.

We even have homologous natural phenomena in the real world, in matter and anti-matter, and virtual particles. Let's focus on the latter as they are most interesting: in a vacuum, quantum perturbations still cause particles to form out of nothing. These particles are created in pairs, one positive, the other negative, and they annihilate upon meeting again, leaving the total state of hard vacuum empty, with net energy of zero.

So we have a real-world phenomenom where the default balance point is indeed zero.

On the flipside: zero has no weight in equations. No matter how many zeros you add on either side of an equation, it won't affect the balance of it in the slighest. Because of this, you can have infinite emptiness outside the universes and still have the unverses be balanced. Because it's a balance between creation and destruction, +1 and -1, not existence and non-existence, which would be a non-sensical concept, akin to asking how to balance 1 and 0.

[Rater202]

By the way, and this isn't exactly Super related, but several members of Team Four Star were in an episode of the Kai: The Final Chapters dub. The Toonami TV version reused the original Z dialog but this scene is on the DVD and On Demand releases

[Kato]

Eh, I felt the battle wasn't that great... not terrible but... I guess I'm just still annoyed by SSJ just being a minor power up instead of the 1000x increase it should be. And Goku being a terrible dad who rsiks his kid's life. Again. What is this, the Cell Saga?
I'm being a bit harsher than I should, it wasn't all bad. I guess.

What I do mind is the final bit about their universe being the weakest, and some being too strong to take part. What a poor way to build up tension when in the end it will just not affect any of the fights


Also: People honestly, seriously believe Goku could take on the creator and destroyer of universes? Uhm... Sure.

[JadedDM]

I think it's more likely that Goku will find a way to talk Zeno out of it, as opposed to defeating him in battle. They are friends, after all.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Eh, I felt the battle wasn't that great... not terrible but... I guess I'm just still annoyed by SSJ just being a minor power up instead of the 1000x increase it should be. And Goku being a terrible dad who rsiks his kid's life. Again. What is this, the Cell Saga?
I'm being a bit harsher than I should, it wasn't all bad. I guess.

What I do mind is the final bit about their universe being the weakest, and some being too strong to take part. What a poor way to build up tension when in the end it will just not affect any of the fights

I'm all behind Goku being a terrible dad, but how did he risk Gohan's life in this episode? Didn't Gohan refuse the Senzu Bean?

Also the later bit doesn't bother me considering its an average...not like...a comparison of the strongest individuals per universe.

[Kato]

I'm all behind Goku being a terrible dad, but how did he risk Gohan's life in this episode? Didn't Hogan refuse the Senzu Bean?

Also the later bit doesn't bother me considering its an average...not like...a comparison of the strongest individuals per universe.

Yes, but Goku also said "nah, we should let him test how strong he is". Or something to that extent. Sure, he heals him at the end but he was perfectly fine with Gohan risking his life.

Yes, likely, still this makes this comparison bit seem just pointless.

[Dragonus45]

I doubt he will be fighting Zen, I think what will actually happen is that he winds up fighting Zen's angel guy who is the actual villain manipulating the generally naive and innocent Zen.

[Rater202]

Yes, but Goku also said "nah, we should let him test how strong he is". Or something to that extent. Sure, he heals him at the end but he was perfectly fine with Gohan risking his life.

Gohan is an adult now. He made the decisions to win or lose the fight without a sensu bean in order to demonstrate how strong he is and know how far he still has to go.

Goku honestly has no say.

Also, SSJ has never been an X1000 power up. According to the guide books, SSJ1 is an X50 power up, SSJ2 doubles that for a total of X100, and SSJ3 multiplies that by 4 for a total of X400. SSJ4 and SSJB do not have multipliers given to them, we just know that they're stronger and/or more practical than the other super Saiyan forms that Goku and Vegeta have access to, though SSJ4's can be intuited when one takes the fact that it's just Super Saiyan combined with the Great Ape form and then brought under control and concentrated, which would put it at X500(Making it the Great Ape equivalent of SSJ Stage 4.)

The closest thing to a "X1000" power increasing SSJ form would either be "Full Powered Super Saiyan 4" which brings the Saiyan's full power to light, meaning that when Goku uses it it would bring him up to 4000X (400 from SSJ3X10 from Great Ape) if not higher, leaving X1000 in the dust, or Super Saiyan God as depicted in the Super Anime where Goku just keeps rapidly getting stronger and shattering through his limitations(and regenerating) up until it wears off(and at least some of that was increasing Goku's base power rather than being all in the form.)

For the sake of completion: Super Saiyan Rage does not have a multiplier assigned to it, but I'm operating on the assumption that it's a more controllable and less wasteful way of accessing SSJ3 levels of power(Basically making it the SSJ 2 to 3's SSJ grade 3) SSJ Grade 2 is about 70 or 75X base PL, SSJ Grade 3 is equal to SSJ2 but it's hard to control, wastes energy, and makes you bulky which makes it utterly impractical, SSJ Grade 4 does not increase the power of base Super Saiyan but rather makes it significantly easier to control, reduces energy consumption to negligible amounts, and removes all strain on the body. Broly's Legendary Super Saiyan is Basically Super Saiyan Grade 3 without any of Grade three's drawbacks or even the drawbacks of base Super Saiyan--Broly's reserves of Kii actually increase the long her's in the form, rather than decreasing. This means that Broly's "Legendary Super Saiyan 2, 3, and 4" forms in the video games are about twice as powerful as those forms normally would be.

Super Saiyan Rose is equivalent to either Base Super Saiyan or to Super Saiyan blue, depending on how you interpret the line about it being Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan.

[Lord Raziere]

High Priest being the villain? Maybe, but Dragon Ball has never been a series for masterminds and subtle hidden villains. It was pretty obvious that Zamasu would be the villain pretty much from his introduction, just not how.

While the High Priest hasn't done anything besides give a bunch of announcements and be unnaturally calm about everything like the rest of the Angels, which to be fair is a giveaway of some hidden villains in stories: somehow the writers try too hard to not make them stand out and thus make them seem in control of everything through their lack of reaction to events around them because they planned it, so you can at times correctly guess who the villain is based upon how they aren't reacting to any of these events in a natural manner. They are revealed by having too much of a poker face about it all. The reason we believed Frost was actually a nice guy initially was because he could fake good guy reactions enough to seem natural, but even then the way his foes kept fainting mysteriously gave him away.

So its possible that the High Priest could be the villain but I'm leaning towards Zeno simply because Dragon Ball is as subtle as red flashing lights when it comes to introducing its villains. Zeno destroying the entire universe just to take out Zamasu, is the first warning sign to me.

[Anteros]

I don't know if you can really call it subtle. There's a reason it's probably the most popular fan theory out there right now.

[Doorhandle]

"I mastered the Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken! Kaioken X20!"

Alternativly: Vegeta and I trained to control our ki better, so here's Vegito!

Or "Fusion Ha!"

Or "Buu, absorb everyone and use our power to save the day!"

Or Ten Man Kamehameha.

I still don't think Zen'O's going to be fought at this point in the saga (or at all,) but seeing all those nuclear options have me giving the whole thing a bit more credence.

I think it's more likely someone will try to evacuate the unwanted universes, or someone will use super dragon balls to wish them back, or something even more unusual.

That said, If Zen'O does fight, he's probably going to have the obvious weakness of having no training whatsoever, and so his immensely powerful attacks will be highly telegraphed.

I don't know if you can really call it subtle. There's a reason it's probably the most popular fan theory out there right now

Again, not quite willing to hedge my bets yet, but his serenity is seriously creepy.

What I'm really looking forward to is the Universe 6 rematch. Considering 3/5 of those opponents were defeated by the rules and not by pure force, it'll be interesting to see how they can operate now they can be serious; to say nothing of Hit.
Then again, considering that Goku and co haven't got any weaker in the intervening time, and can oneshot Frost when motivated, it may not be what i'm hoping for.

[Kato]

Also, SSJ has never been an X1000 power up. According to the guide books, SSJ1 is an X50 power up, SSJ2 doubles that for a total of X100, and SSJ3 multiplies that by 4 for a total of X400.

These numbers do look familiar and 1000x might have been an exagerration on my part but didn't Goku go from something like 10k to 15 million when he first went super saiyan? Or maybe it was 100k, depending on how much you factor in Kaioken, but 50x would put him around 300k base strength at that point.

[Xihirli]

His base power level when fighting Ginyu was 90,000. He then got a Zenkai boost that allowed him to stand up to Freeza when the tyrant was at 50% using the X20 Kaioken. Since he was above Freeza's 100% power as SSJ1, SSJ1 is a more than 40X multiplier, but not to the degree that it could not be surpassed by the Androids. 50X is the approximate multiplier.

[Rater202]

These numbers do look familiar and 1000x might have been an exagerration on my part but didn't Goku go from something like 10k to 15 million when he first went super saiyan? Or maybe it was 100k, depending on how much you factor in Kaioken, but 50x would put him around 300k base strength at that point.

According to Databooks, Goku's base power level was 3 million when he first went Super Saiyan and his power levelafter transforming was 150 million.

[Lord Raziere]

According to Databooks, Goku's base power level was 3 million when he first went Super Saiyan and his power levelafter transforming was 150 million.

In comparison, Freeza's First form is 550,000 PL

Second Form: One Million

Third Form: Never given (though one can assume its somewhere between 10-30 million, maybe 20 million)

Final Form (50%): 60 million

Final Form (100%): 120 million

and Captain Ginyu's PL is: 120,000 PL

Yup, thats right, Freeza is literally one thousand times more powerful than Captain Ginyu. Freeza basically screws up the power scaling fierce, because he goes from "five times more powerful than the last guy you faced" all the way to "We need a literal miracle for this guy to be beaten." in the course of a single fight against everyone.

Lucky for them, Super-Saiyan was that miracle, and even then that miracle only worked because of the constant Zenkai boosts the saiyans kept getting that raised their PL's after every fight against Freeza's minions that they nearly lose. If Goku for example, beat up Ginyu too easily he wouldn't need to heal and thus even if he got the SS power up his strength wouldn't be enough to beat Freeza in his Final Form. Namek Saga is full of constant power ups: Vegeta gets at least two, Krillin and Gohan get one, Piccolo gets two (how much does he train with King Kai again? if he doesn't only one via Fusion with Nail), and Goku gets three.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Zeno destroying the entire universe just to take out Zamasu, is the first warning sign to me.

Maybe, but wasn't the implication that Future Trunks' universe had been cleared out of sentient life by that point?

That's ignoring the fact that Zamasu was trying to/had successfully become a concept of the universe that was beginning to infect other timelines. Drastic measures were needed to stop that.

Upfront though, not actually arguing this point with you, Zeno destroying that timeline was a very pointed example of what Zeno was capable of and why so many people are so worried about interacting with him. It was a good set-up for why Beerus and Whis were so worried about Goku talking to Zeno about the Tournament of Power.

[Kato]

In comparison, Freeza's First form is 550,000 PL

Second Form: One Million

Third Form: Never given (though one can assume its somewhere between 10-30 million, maybe 20 million)

Final Form (50%): 60 million

Final Form (100%): 120 million

and Captain Ginyu's PL is: 120,000 PL

I could be totally wrong but didn't frieza at some point claim each transformation doubles his power? Roughly, at least? Though, this could be something the translation screwed up. I'm not questioning the data books here, rather I assume my memory being screwy or retconning.

(though, isn't Goku's using multiple kaioken pretty much always after arriving on namek?)

[Eldariel]

In comparison, Freeza's First form is 550,000 PL

Second Form: One Million

Third Form: Never given (though one can assume its somewhere between 10-30 million, maybe 20 million)

Final Form (50%): 60 million

Final Form (100%): 120 million

and Captain Ginyu's PL is: 120,000 PL

Yup, thats right, Freeza is literally one thousand times more powerful than Captain Ginyu. Freeza basically screws up the power scaling fierce, because he goes from "five times more powerful than the last guy you faced" all the way to "We need a literal miracle for this guy to be beaten." in the course of a single fight against everyone.

Lucky for them, Super-Saiyan was that miracle, and even then that miracle only worked because of the constant Zenkai boosts the saiyans kept getting that raised their PL's after every fight against Freeza's minions that they nearly lose. If Goku for example, beat up Ginyu too easily he wouldn't need to heal and thus even if he got the SS power up his strength wouldn't be enough to beat Freeza in his Final Form. Namek Saga is full of constant power ups: Vegeta gets at least two, Krillin and Gohan get one, Piccolo gets two (how much does he train with King Kai again? if he doesn't only one via Fusion with Nail), and Goku gets three.

Well. Even Vegeta was about 20 times more powerful than the Raditz-era Z-fighters normally. And he gets to use the Great Ape-form for an additional 10x increase, making him 200 times more powerful than the heroes. And on the other side we have Goku literally multiplying his powers with Kaioken, while his base got multiplied many times over simultaneously. This is quadratic scaling right here. While of course a very satisfying episode, I'd say that finally screwed the powerlevel scaling entirely. Instead of talking about hundreds, we're suddenly talking tens and hundreds of thousands. Then Super Saiyan happens and we're looking at a singularity and Toriyama goes "**** it".

[Rater202]

I could be totally wrong but didn't frieza at some point claim each transformation doubles his power? Roughly, at least? Though, this could be something the translation screwed up. I'm not questioning the data books here, rather I assume my memory being screwy or retconning.

That was a Dubism.

Also, on Zeno and Zamasu: I don't take that as a warning sign because Merged Zamasu's soul had quite literally merged with and infected the entire future timeline multiverse and killed basically everyone but our main party.

He was beginning to reach into an infect other timelines.

Deleting reality is the appropriate response to that kind of thing--it's not like they had the time go find the Super Dragon Balls to fix it, and if that "wipe out all life" and/or "Zamasu and black killing the gods who'd get in their way" things took out Zalama, then assuming the Super Dragon Balls work the same way the normal ones do that would render them inert.

[Phexar]

My prediction for this arc is that Universe 7 will face Universe 11 in the final match, given the particular emphasis on Toppo. They are described as a 'hero team' and the guardians of the peace of their universe, so that would be an interesting contrast with them being clearly built up as good guys to overcome. I don't know if it was said that there would be a rematch with Universe 6, but if not I wouldn't be surprised if Universe 11 defeated Universe 6 to emphasise how powerful they are - if Toppo flattens Hit then it adds the question to the audience of how Goku could hope to defeat him given we know how strong Hit is. I imagine Goku would use the Super Dragon Balls to wish the vanquished universes back and state something about how they fought well and put on a spectacular show as reason to the Zeno's for them all to live again. I think a reasoning like that could work.

I don't think the Zeno's or Grand Priest are evil, just antagonists of sorts for this arc, where the real rivalry will be with Universe 11. They just have a remote, detached, godly way of looking at mortals, and their power seems inconceivably far beyond Beerus and Whis who are already far beyond Goku and his friends. I don't think they'll ever be topped - if the Gods of Destruction and angels aren't anywhere near them in challenge, Goku and co certainly aren't. They're just... gods being gods. They aren't being malicious like Zamasu was, they just have more of a Blue and Orange Morality. Even Whis shrugged it off. Speaking of Zamasu, I agree that Future Zeno had to wipe out the timeline since all he'd infected and killed everything and was beginning to breach into other timelines.

[The Troubadour]

For what it's worth, I never figured "mortal rank level" to mean "fighting power"; I figured it meant "civilization level" or something similar.

So, how about that Gohan-versus-Lavender fight? That sure was a worthwhile thing to talk about. Just two dudes fighting each other in an arena, one-on-one, nothing to muddy it up.

Indeed! This was a classic shounen fight, with the protagonist overcoming a deadly technique with smarts and, especially, guts. Not to mention it was a good first step toward bringing Gohan at least back to his old power level.

Officially it's a multiplier. So if you have 25,000 PL and use X3 it puts you at 100,000. Just toss it in the pile with the rest of the power level stuff that makes no sense.

Seventy-five thousand, actually. Base Kaioken increases your power by 100% (basically, it doubles it), then higher levels of Kaioken multiply it accordingly (Kaioken x3 triples your power, Kaioken x4 quadruples your power, etc.). One should also note that Goku only used the base level of Kaioken against Hit; I doubt he could have used it at a higher level when transformed into Super Saiyan Blue.

And yeah, at the very least, power levels were never properly explained. Goku with PL 8.000 was overwhelmingly faster and stronger than Nappa with PL 5.000, but not enough to deal a crippling injury - he needed the Kaioken to do that (so, PL 16.000). Meanwhile, Goku using Kaioken x4 (PL 32.000) and a full-powered Kamehameha could only hurt Vegeta, and not even hurt him seriously.

[Lord Raziere]

My prediction for this arc is that Universe 7 will face Universe 11 in the final match, given the particular emphasis on Toppo. They are described as a 'hero team' and the guardians of the peace of their universe, so that would be an interesting contrast with them being clearly built up as good guys to overcome. I don't know if it was said that there would be a rematch with Universe 6, but if not I wouldn't be surprised if Universe 11 defeated Universe 6 to emphasise how powerful they are - if Toppo flattens Hit then it adds the question to the audience of how Goku could hope to defeat him given we know how strong Hit is. I imagine Goku would use the Super Dragon Balls to wish the vanquished universes back and state something about how they fought well and put on a spectacular show as reason to the Zeno's for them all to live again. I think a reasoning like that could work.

I don't think the Zeno's or Grand Priest are evil, just antagonists of sorts for this arc, where the real rivalry will be with Universe 11. They just have a remote, detached, godly way of looking at mortals, and their power seems inconceivably far beyond Beerus and Whis who are already far beyond Goku and his friends. I don't think they'll ever be topped - if the Gods of Destruction and angels aren't anywhere near them in challenge, Goku and co certainly aren't. They're just... gods being gods. They aren't being malicious like Zamasu was, they just have more of a Blue and Orange Morality. Even Whis shrugged it off. Speaking of Zamasu, I agree that Future Zeno had to wipe out the timeline since all he'd infected and killed everything and was beginning to breach into other timelines.

In short:
Goku wishes back all the dead Universes, there are no consequences, everyone laughs it off as if this really was all fun and games...and thus the worst possible ending.

Why? because its predictable, its disappointing and renders the entire thing absolutely pointless. You might as well end the series at that point, because that would be proof that none of it mattered, that Goku won't be held responsible for the horrible things he just caused, and that all of this was cheap hype.

Just because the villain isn't cackling while twirling a mustache and thinks they operate on some different kind of morality, doesn't mean they aren't a bunch of evil jerks who are arbitrarily deciding to just wipe out 60% of the universe for reasons that are stupid and absurd without the knowledge of the people who they rule. Arguably Zamasu is just as bad as the rest of the gods rather than the other way around, he just expresses it more emotionally.

[Xihirli]

Seventy-five thousand, actually. Base Kaioken increases your power by 100% (basically, it doubles it), then higher levels of Kaioken multiply it accordingly (Kaioken x3 triples your power, Kaioken x4 quadruples your power, etc.). One should also note that Goku only used the base level of Kaioken against Hit; I doubt he could have used it at a higher level when transformed into Super Saiyan Blue.

Goku went up to X10 Kaioken.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Just because the villain isn't cackling while twirling a mustache and thinks they operate on some different kind of morality, doesn't mean they aren't a bunch of evil jerks who are arbitrarily deciding to just wipe out 60% of the universe for reasons that are stupid and absurd without the knowledge of the people who they rule. Arguably Zamasu is just as bad as the rest of the gods rather than the other way around, he just expresses it more emotionally.

Not arguing the rest of this, but I have an honest question about a point that you've brought up before, the bit that I've bolded in the quote above.

...Why on earth should/would they inform the people they're ruling about what potentially might happen to them? How does telling a universe's inhabitants 'hey, due to factors outside your control or knowledge, your universe is going to be erased' accomplish anything besides causing mass hysteria and panic? That is needlessly cruel and pointless.