Dragon Ball Super

[Callos_DeTerran]

Hm. On the surface, Whis's actions is good in that it gives Bulma a pain free birth.

But going deeper, one realizes its highly manipulative. "participate in this tournament! or are you going to not listen to the person who delivered your baby daughter, and could just as easily take her away?" Whis basically put Vegeta into his debt.

this gets worse when you realize that Whis hasn't told him about how the Universe will be destroyed including his daughter if he fails, so its like:
"here have your daughter born! By the way, fight in this tournament."
"you didn't mention this tournament would destroy Universes!"
"Well all the more reason to fight for your daughter now isn't it? Or her first days are going to be her last."

Its like giving someone their favorite present and then telling them if they want to keep it that they have to win a war....without mentioning that its a war. That is just cruel.

That is a very different read than what I got. It felt a lot more like...

Vegeta: "I can't go to the tournament unless you convince Bulma..or my child is born."
Whis: "So if your kid is born you'd be able to participate?"
Vegeta: "That is what I just.."
MAGICAL COMPLICATION FREE MAGIC BIRTH.
Vegeta: "wat. Wait..I did my duty as husband and father AND I still get to fight?!"

Vegeta said he wanted to fight in the tournament but couldn't until Bulla was born, so eventually Whis just made that happen so he could.

...I mean, aside from reading the intentions differently, there is just something really un-nerving about what Whis did and I can't even explain why it was un-nerving it just was.

[Rater202]

That is a very different read than what I got. It felt a lot more like...

Vegeta: "I can't go to the tournament unless you convince Bulma..or my child is born."
Whis: "So if your kid is born you'd be able to participate?"
Vegeta: "That is what I just.."
MAGICAL COMPLICATION FREE MAGIC BIRTH.
Vegeta: "wat. Wait..I did my duty as husband and father AND I still get to fight?!"

Vegeta said he wanted to fight in the tournament but couldn't until Bulla was born, so eventually Whis just made that happen so he could.

...I mean, aside from reading the intentions differently, there is just something really un-nerving about what Whis did and I can't even explain why it was un-nerving it just was.

I think it was becuase he didn't ask permision first, personally.

Doing thigs to a pregnant woman's unborn child without consulting the mother, even if Whis did it soley for Altrusitic reasons(debatable) is kind a **** move. Lot's of Adult Fear there.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I think it was becuase he didn't ask permision first, personally.

Doing thigs to a pregnant woman's unborn child without consulting the mother, even if Whis did it soley for Altrusitic reasons(debatable) is kind a **** move. Lot's of Adult Fear there.

Ehh, that doesn't bother me too much...I think it might honestly be fact that he's ABLE to do that which is somehow un-nerving.

[The Troubadour]

What's with this "Bulla" thing, translators? Isn't it supposed to be "Bra"?

[Rater202]

What's with this "Bulla" thing, translators? Isn't it supposed to be "Bra"?

Yeah, though to be fair the official Dub got it wrong too.

Bra pronounced phonetically in Japanese is "Burra" which gets romanized, mistakenly, as Bulla.

Something similar happened to Bulma--Bulma's name, Burruma, is supposed to be Bloomer(To go with her Father Doctor Brief and her mother Panty) but it was improperly romanized.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, though to be fair the official Dub got it wrong too.

Bra pronounced phonetically in Japanese is "Burra" which gets romanized, mistakenly, as Bulla.

Something similar happened to Bulma--Bulma's name, Burruma, is supposed to be Bloomer(To go with her Father Doctor Brief and her mother Panty) but it was improperly romanized.

Aren't both of those ブラ/bura and ブルマ/buruma rather than ブッラ/burra and ブッルマ/burruma? Japanese makes a distinction between single and doubled consonants - the Romanization adds those for some reason. The reason for the /u/s is that in Japanese, /u/ sounds basically in the middle of words tend to be unvoiced so you essentially pronounce Japanese "bura" much like the English "bra" (and they don't have kana for single consonants aside from the nasal [n/m/ng]) - and of course, l/r are the same phoneme in Japanese, so bura and bula are the same word.

[Anteros]

New Episode.

Spoiler

Show

So...Gohan lost a match to Krillin. He sure is being picky about the team members considering he's one of the weakest links on the team.

I liked this episode a lot actually.

[Callos_DeTerran]

New Episode.

Spoiler

Show

So...Gohan lost a match to Krillin. He sure is being picky about the team members considering he's one of the weakest links on the team.

I liked this episode a lot actually.

Spoiler: New Episode

Show

Its weird but it made a lot of sense. Gohan has never actually fought in a tournament before aside from against Kibito...and they didn't actually fight. He's not used to concepts such as 'don't kill' or 'I can't fly or give up this ground' cause there's a lose condition besides 'dying' this time.

To a degree with Goku as well, he's not gonna get the chance to have the fights he wants and if tries...well...the immediate image that comes to mind is Goku trying to fight like...Toppo on his own and the all of the Pride Troopers kicking his ass and throwing him off the platform.

They're going to a lot of trouble to emphasis this isn't gonna be like other fighters, just hope they can follow through on all of it.

[Kato]

They're going to a lot of trouble to emphasis this isn't gonna be like other fighters, just hope they can follow through on all of it.

I hope so too, but I'm a bit cautious...

Anyway, yes, decent episode, I had enough fun, even if it seems to me the power gap should still be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay bigger. Let's see if that park ranger will give them a hard time next week.

[lord_khaine]

Got interested in DBZ again (besides the abridged version) after a long time.

And yeah i do like the general concept of things, though were also little surprised at how small the power gap were. Are just basic level SS not suposed to be able to move so fast that humans just cant follow it with their eyes?

All the same.. if they are going to retcon a large bit of the power gap away then i wont complain.

[Rater202]

Got interested in DBZ again (besides the abridged version) after a long time.

And yeah i do like the general concept of things, though were also little surprised at how small the power gap were. Are just basic level SS not suposed to be able to move so fast that humans just cant follow it with their eyes?

All the same.. if they are going to retcon a large bit of the power gap away then i won't complain.

Spoiler

Show

Super Saiyans don't have a minimum ability level--It's canonically a X50 Multiplier, rather than a set "You're base power stops here, then you have to become a super saiyan" thing.

The "They're moving so fast I can't see them" isn't a trait of a specific power level, so much as a trait of one person being massively more powerful than the other--Mr. Satan, whos power level is only 140, can run so fast that normal humans think he teleported.

Krillin had a mini-arc in which he overcame his fears and self-doubt, reclaimed his fighting spirit, and it's implied got a major power boost. He's also apparently been training all to hell and back ever since. The power gap is still there, but it's proportionately much smaller, the gap between Goku and Krillin, than it's been in a long time(Being able to hold his own, even push back, a SSJB level Super Kamehameha with just a normal Kamehameha for a time is a good demonstration. Goku is a hell of a lot more powerful, but Krillin's closer to Goku's full power than he's been in a good long while.)

Besides, it's pretty clear that Krillin was, like Piccolo against Frost, doing so well becuase he was using clever strategies.

[Xihirli]

I hope we get to see some action from Tenshinhan and Piccolo before the Tournament. I haven't seen Piccolo fight since Frost, and that was way too short.

[lord_khaine]

Super Saiyans don't have a minimum ability level--It's canonically a X50 Multiplier, rather than a set "You're base power stops here, then you have to become a super saiyan" thing.

Mhm.. so i were in fact right. Super Saiyans should be moving so fast most others seems to be standing still, if they get a x50 boost just from the first level of transformation.

I mean, for Goku not to be at least 50 times as powerful as Krillen just by turning yellow, then he would need to actually be weaker than Krillen in his base form.

[Devonix]

Mhm.. so i were in fact right. Super Saiyans should be moving so fast most others seems to be standing still, if they get a x50 boost just from the first level of transformation.

I mean, for Goku not to be at least 50 times as powerful as Krillen just by turning yellow, then he would need to actually be weaker than Krillen in his base form.

I'm rather certain all of that X Multiplier stuff just doesn't exist anymore in anything other than fan speculation and doesn't actually effect the story. Toryamma's been trying to get rid of powerlevels for years.

[Yuki Akuma]

Mhm.. so i were in fact right. Super Saiyans should be moving so fast most others seems to be standing still, if they get a x50 boost just from the first level of transformation.

I mean, for Goku not to be at least 50 times as powerful as Krillen just by turning yellow, then he would need to actually be weaker than Krillen in his base form.

He sure would. That's not an impossible situation, though - Goku has had to use Super Saiyan to fight big threats ever since getting access to it. In his base form, he's way weaker than most opponents he faces.

The thing that makes Goku so strong is his ability to increase his power level, not his base power level itself. The Kamehameha gathers and condenses ki to increase his effective power level for a ki blast. The Kaioken multiplies his power level. Super Saiyan multiplies his power level.

[Rater202]

I mean, for Goku not to be at least 50 times as powerful as Krillen just by turning yellow, then he would need to actually be weaker than Krillen in his base form.

Consider that Krillin is implied to get a massive power boost by reclaiming his fighting spirit at the end of his, there's a Nonzero chance that this is the case.

[Anteros]

I think it's more logical to assume that Krillin just caught Gohan off guard because he was being arrogant, and that Goku was more interested in testing how his friend would react to an opponent with a massive power difference than murdering his best friend in cold blood.

[Devonix]

I think it's more logical to assume that Krillin just caught Gohan off guard because he was being arrogant, and that Goku was more interested in testing how his friend would react to an opponent with a massive power difference than murdering his best friend in cold blood.

Just because you're not trying to kill someone doesn't mean that you're not fighting seriously. Goku not treating the fight like it was real would completely go against his character.

[Anteros]

Just because you're not trying to kill someone doesn't mean that you're not fighting seriously. Goku not treating the fight like it was real would completely go against his character.

What? He plays around and scales himself to his opponent in literally every fight he's ever been in where he was stronger than someone. It's one of the most defined character traits he has.

This fight just ended before we got to the part where he slowly amps up the power until the opponent can't keep up.

[Rater202]

Generally speaking, if you're in your most powerful form, you're taking the fight seriously enough.

[Xihirli]

In the beam struggle, I found it similar to the one between Goku and Black-Zamasu ("Zack"). Zack was way stronger, but Goku could surprise him and win the beam struggle. The power difference was shown in that after, Goku was exhausted, only able to let off one more good blow before being out of the fight (until Vegito). It looked pretty similar here. Krillin put up a good fight in the beam struggle, but it took pretty much all of his energy and Goku was still ready to keep going.

[Devonix]

What? He plays around and scales himself to his opponent in literally every fight he's ever been in where he was stronger than someone. It's one of the most defined character traits he has.

This fight just ended before we got to the part where he slowly amps up the power until the opponent can't keep up.

That's called feeling your opponent out. You still take the fight seriously when you do that. People in tournaments or boxing matches do it all the time. Not every boxer, at least any good boxer throws nothing but haymakers.

[Devonix]

In the beam struggle, I found it similar to the one between Goku and Black-Zamasu ("Zack"). Zack was way stronger, but Goku could surprise him and win the beam struggle. The power difference was shown in that after, Goku was exhausted, only able to let off one more good blow before being out of the fight (until Vegito). It looked pretty similar here. Krillin put up a good fight in the beam struggle, but it took pretty much all of his energy and Goku was still ready to keep going.

Exactly, goku took it seriously but that's not the same as using all his energy. Krillin was pushing himself to his limits. Look on goku's face, he was surprised that he had to put in as much effort as he did.

[Rater202]

Exactly, goku took it seriously but that's not the same as using all his energy. Krillin was pushing himself to his limits. Look on goku's face, he was surprised that he had to put in as much effort as he did.

Considering the previous gap in their power levels, and just how much raw power Goku has... being able to make Goku struggle, if only for a moment, says a lot about Krillin and hoe far he's come.

[Lord Raziere]

Generally speaking, if you're in your most powerful form, you're taking the fight seriously enough.

that and Goku and Vegeta generally use the most efficient forms they have for actual fighting, which are super saiyan and SS Blue. their forays into things like SS2 and Goku into SS3 are really just them discovering less efficient forms that get more short term power. Vegeta outright didn't bother with SS3 because he knows its just Super Saiyan Third Grade all over again but with less speed reduction.

[Anteros]

That's called feeling your opponent out. You still take the fight seriously when you do that. People in tournaments or boxing matches do it all the time. Not every boxer, at least any good boxer throws nothing but haymakers.

That's not what Goku does though. He plays around during fights and uses the minimum power needed at any given time. It's an explicit character flaw that they've even called out within the show more than once

For example, the time he could have beaten Majin Vegeta but didn't cause he was taking it easy for the sake of a good fight.
And both times he could have beaten Buu but didn't.
And when he took it easy against Frost.
And Tien
And Krillin (original DB)
And Ginyu
And when he got shot by Frieza's minion
And 19.

He doesn't even go all out when the world is at stake. Much less in a casual match against his best friend.

It's really much more reasonable that Goku just took it easy in the fight like he always does than Krillin suddenly becoming trillions of times more powerful.

[Xihirli]

To be fair, he was dying when he fought 19.

[Anteros]

To be fair, he was dying when he fought 19.

True, but he was still goofing off right up until the moment he got destroyed.

[Devonix]

That's not what Goku does though. He plays around during fights and uses the minimum power needed at any given time. It's an explicit character flaw that they've even called out within the show more than once

For example, the time he could have beaten Majin Vegeta but didn't cause he was taking it easy for the sake of a good fight.
And both times he could have beaten Buu but didn't.
And when he took it easy against Frost.
And Tien
And Krillin (original DB)
And Ginyu
And when he got shot by Frieza's minion
And 19.

He doesn't even go all out when the world is at stake. Much less in a casual match against his best friend.

It's really much more reasonable that Goku just took it easy in the fight like he always does than Krillin suddenly becoming trillions of times more powerful.

I very very much disagree. His fight against Majin Vegita was anything but him taking it easy. He didn't use his trump card, but he most certainly took that fight seriously. Same for all of those fights I'd say.
There's a world of difference between " Not going for the kill or immediate win" And Taking it easy.

It's the old " I am not left Handed " way of fighting. You can fight and say, I'll fight you and only use one arm. Now I'll still fight you seriously, but I'm not going to use that arm because that's how I want to win.

[Anteros]

I very very much disagree. His fight against Majin Vegita was anything but him taking it easy. He didn't use his trump card, but he most certainly took that fight seriously. Same for all of those fights I'd say.
There's a world of difference between " Not going for the kill or immediate win" And Taking it easy.

It's the old " I am not left Handed " way of fighting. You can fight and say, I'll fight you and only use one arm. Now I'll still fight you seriously, but I'm not going to use that arm because that's how I want to win.

I don't consider placing arbitrary restrictions on yourself to keep the fight from being too easy as fighting seriously. I also don't see how it means it's out of character for him to take it easy on Krillin.

I guess we mostly agree about what's happening, and just disagree on whether it means he is being serious or not.