Dragon Ball Super

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 114

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"Only the strong remain." hm. we'll see how true that is.

Kale going Berserk again is enough to make Jiren twitch. could she be someone capable of standing up to him?

and now Kale has full control over her power. yup, even Goku is shaking. Huh.

Oh, NOW your apologizing for "borrowing" other peoples attacks, Goku, NOW your doing so! Yeah, where was that apology the last couple times you did it hm?

Oh, a U3 robot is taking on Freeza. oh how amusing, he is a doomed police man, how quaint. Look dude, the Pride Troopers already did this heroic stance stuff much better and more numbers than you, your just another weak weirdo to be crushed under Freeza's feet.

and Goku runs into him, and Freeza starts attacking Kale and Caulifla. whoops.

yup, Freeza completely ignores super police man guy even though he is going 300 times as fast. he is just a joke.

and yup, he is going Saiyan God. now things are getting serious. wait since when Goku use finger beams?

Since when did Goku use tracking attacks!?

Goku says "after the tournament of power is done lets do this again." .....does this mean he is going to wish them back? it certainly implies that because otherwise, he can't because th eunvierses willb e erased.

YYEEEEEEEEEEESSSS, ITS THE FUSION! KEFLA! AND GOKU CAN'T SENSE A LIMIT TO HER ENERGY! WHOA.....NO........COULD THIS BE THE U6 FIGHTER THAT COULD EQUAL JIREN?

and yeah, Kefla is currently trouncing Goku while he is Super Saiyan God......while in her BASE FORM. things really are going nuts here.

Tournament Status:
U7: 7/10
U3: 6/10
U2: 5/10
U6: 4/10
U4: 3/10
U11: 3/10
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 28 fighters remaining.

still unchanged, but now we have U6's real trump card in play. and apparently in the preview, not even Super Saiyan Blue is enough to defeat her. yeah, I think this confirms more than ever that a super form isn't a fixed level of power, but a force multiplier of what you already have- a guy who goes SS Blue and a guy who goes normal Super Saiyan can fight equally if the normal Super Saiyan has a much higher base of power level. Kale and Caulifla or at least Kefla don't need to reach Super Saiyan Blue.....their base power is already so great that they can fight well in a high level setting like this.

[Rater202]

You're giving some extremely weak reasoning why these examples don't apply. "He had to climb a tower to get it" isn't compelling to me when it's still basically just drinking some water to double your power. If you want to believe that Goku has access to literally infinite power and simply doesn't use it for some reason then fine, but I don't think most other people are going to buy that.

If he was actually the way you view him, then he would view climbing the tower itself as training and turn down the water on top.

"You have to pass a test to earn the power up"="not a free power-up, it's an earned power up."

Especially when Goku had to start all over because he failed the test several times(every day, after failing to get the water from Korin, Korin made him go all the way back to the bottom and climb the tower again.)

Goku also refused to take the Water while (he thought)Korin was sleeping because he wanted to earn the power up instead of just getting it.

[Delicious Taffy]

Spoiler: Episode 114

Show

Re: Kefla - YES YES YES YES YES
...
I mean, this is pretty cool. I'm definitely getting Steven Universe vibes from this fusion, from the characters' relationship to the music. For all the complaints and weirdness around Kale and Caulifla's massive, massive power increases in such a short time, I'm really enjoying it. Vegeta's reaction makes me wonder if maybe he won't be heading that direction, pretty soon.

Also, I love how dismissive Freeza is toward that nutso superhero guy (don't care about his name). The dude gets a 300x speed boost, and Freeza's just like "Dude, what the **** ever" and ignores his ass.

[HolyDraconus]

So.... senzu beans are legal now? I mean, they kinda have to be when it was stated no items, and potato fusion is CLEARLY using an item.

[Mikeavelli]

Spoiler: Episode 114

Show

"A real trump card is saved until the last minute."

But we're still at 21 minutes remaining. Champa is going to end up getting those words thrown back in his face.

[Jayngfet]

They're only illegal if Zen-oh doesn't like it. Otherwise all bets are off.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Episode 114

Show

"Only the strong remain." hm. we'll see how true that is.

Kale going Berserk again is enough to make Jiren twitch. could she be someone capable of standing up to him?

and now Kale has full control over her power. yup, even Goku is shaking. Huh.

Oh, NOW your apologizing for "borrowing" other peoples attacks, Goku, NOW your doing so! Yeah, where was that apology the last couple times you did it hm?

Oh, a U3 robot is taking on Freeza. oh how amusing, he is a doomed police man, how quaint. Look dude, the Pride Troopers already did this heroic stance stuff much better and more numbers than you, your just another weak weirdo to be crushed under Freeza's feet.

and Goku runs into him, and Freeza starts attacking Kale and Caulifla. whoops.

yup, Freeza completely ignores super police man guy even though he is going 300 times as fast. he is just a joke.

and yup, he is going Saiyan God. now things are getting serious. wait since when Goku use finger beams?

Since when did Goku use tracking attacks!?

Goku says "after the tournament of power is done lets do this again." .....does this mean he is going to wish them back? it certainly implies that because otherwise, he can't because th eunvierses willb e erased.

YYEEEEEEEEEEESSSS, ITS THE FUSION! KEFLA! AND GOKU CAN'T SENSE A LIMIT TO HER ENERGY! WHOA.....NO........COULD THIS BE THE U6 FIGHTER THAT COULD EQUAL JIREN?

and yeah, Kefla is currently trouncing Goku while he is Super Saiyan God......while in her BASE FORM. things really are going nuts here.

Tournament Status:
U7: 7/10
U3: 6/10
U2: 5/10
U6: 4/10
U4: 3/10
U11: 3/10
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 28 fighters remaining.

still unchanged, but now we have U6's real trump card in play. and apparently in the preview, not even Super Saiyan Blue is enough to defeat her. yeah, I think this confirms more than ever that a super form isn't a fixed level of power, but a force multiplier of what you already have- a guy who goes SS Blue and a guy who goes normal Super Saiyan can fight equally if the normal Super Saiyan has a much higher base of power level. Kale and Caulifla or at least Kefla don't need to reach Super Saiyan Blue.....their base power is already so great that they can fight well in a high level setting like this.

Spoiler: 114

Show

Correction, Universe 3 has only 3 fighters remaining. If Kefla is eliminated than both Caulifla and Kale will both be eliminated, so for all the intents and purposes of counting participants Kefla should only be counted as a single individual.

Also, we already know that Jiren considers Berserker Kale a potential threat...or at the very least someone only he can knock out of the tournament from the last time she went berserk. Jiren stepped in almost right away and moved to eliminate her from the Tournament with only Hit keeping Kale in it. My question is..what will Jiren do about Kefla..? That's the unknown.

[HolyDraconus]

Anyone else notice the frieza tendencies that Goku is picking up? I said it once and I will say it again: the more those two interact the similar they become. Almost bros at this point.

[Future Sword]

Loved Pepsiman in this episode. Was surprised at his Coke form. Maybe he's like Mega Man, copying powers from defeated enemies? Either way, Freeza doesn't seem very thirsty, right now.

[Present 2.0]

I had a Thought about Keflas Smile. Kefla must have a positive feedback loop in her head. One half of her thought, that her other half was the greatest thing ever and her other half thought the same about the first half. That must make her the most confident person ever.

Okay Fusions are all pretty confident and cocky, so maybe I am reading too much into this.

[Mikeavelli]

Okay Fusions are all pretty confident and cocky, so maybe I am reading too much into this.

On that note, has a fusion ever actually succeeded in defeating anything for good? Gotenks could have beaten Buu, but got cocky. Same deal with Vegito, but he wanted to save his friends. Vegito had a similarly poor showing against future Zamasu.

The only one I can think of is Gogeta defeating Janenba in the movie, but those aren't necessarily canon.

[Anteros]

On that note, has a fusion ever actually succeeded in defeating anything for good? Gotenks could have beaten Buu, but got cocky. Same deal with Vegito, but he wanted to save his friends. Vegito had a similarly poor showing against future Zamasu.

The only one I can think of is Gogeta defeating Janenba in the movie, but those aren't necessarily canon.

Only in movies or GT. So, depending on if you want to consider those canon. I'd say no though.

[Frozen_Feet]

Okay Fusions are all pretty confident and cocky, so maybe I am reading too much into this.

Sayajins are all pretty confident and cocky and most fusions we've seen have sayajin flavor mixed in.

[Lord Raziere]

On that note, has a fusion ever actually succeeded in defeating anything for good? Gotenks could have beaten Buu, but got cocky. Same deal with Vegito, but he wanted to save his friends. Vegito had a similarly poor showing against future Zamasu.

The only one I can think of is Gogeta defeating Janenba in the movie, but those aren't necessarily canon.

Nope, they haven't. same with Super Saiyan 3 to be honest: lots of power, never seems to defeat anyone. Toriyama is big on using practical things to win rather than flashy impractical stuff. its a repeating theme in many of the fights in the series:
-someone uses some flashy ability to get real powerful by bulking up, growing really giant or fusing together or get long hair
-these abilities either slow you down too much, make you too open and vulnerable, or consume too much energy in too short a time to be useful
-the person is defeated for their troubles by someone using conventional fighting methods for the DBZ universe.

for examples of this see: Vegeta vs. Yajirobe, Goku vs. Puar, Goku Vs. Fat Buu, Future Trunks Vs. Perfect Cell, Gotenks Vs. Super Buu, and Goku Vs. Bergamo.

[Callos_DeTerran]

On that note, has a fusion ever actually succeeded in defeating anything for good? Gotenks could have beaten Buu, but got cocky. Same deal with Vegito, but he wanted to save his friends. Vegito had a similarly poor showing against future Zamasu.

The only one I can think of is Gogeta defeating Janenba in the movie, but those aren't necessarily canon.

I highly doubt that Gotenks ever could have beaten Buu, despite his assertions otherwise. Buu never looked as panicked or frightened as he did when fighting Gohan or Vegito and makes it pretty clear that Gotenks was never going to be enough.

[Present 2.0]

I wonder, if the next episode will adress, how Kale and Caulifla or Kefla are obviously cheating. With Roshis jar, you could make the point, that it wasn't the jar itself, that had an effect, but just an expedient for Roshis Technique. But if Senzu Beans aren't allowed, than Potaras shouldn't be either. I guess, Zeno will allow it, because it's cool. Well, I guess, it is somewhat nice, if another Universe than U7 profites from Zenos childish nature this Time. The other GoDs, especially U4, will then propably be angry at themself for not taking the Risk and smuggling Potaras into the Tournament themself. And they'll also be pretty angry at Champa, but he won't care.

[The Troubadour]

Freeza continues to be awesome. Kefla, on the other hand, annoyed me even more than Gotenks.

Oh, NOW your apologizing for "borrowing" other peoples attacks, Goku, NOW your doing so! Yeah, where was that apology the last couple times you did it hm?

This isn't the first time he did it. He did it way back in the fight against Vegeta - funnily enough, also while using the Solar Flare -, and in the manga, if you count it as canon, he does it when using Beerus' Destruction technique.

You're giving some extremely weak reasoning why these examples don't apply. "He had to climb a tower to get it" isn't compelling to me when it's still basically just drinking some water to double your power.

That's not what happened. Climbing the tower and overcoming Korin's speed WAS the training, that water had no special properties at all. There was a time when Goku got a power boost from drinking sacred water, but that was when he had to fight King Piccolo, and drinking the water nearly killed him.

That said, it's not as if Goku isn't privileged as all hell just by virtue of being a Saiyan. A human who dedicated himself to improving just as much as Goku still wouldn't be as powerful as he is.

[Present 2.0]

Also why exactly where the Potara given to Kale and Caulifla and not to Kale and Hit for Excample.

[Rater202]

That's not what happened. Climbing the tower and overcoming Korin's speed WAS the training, that water had no special properties at all. There was a time when Goku got a power boost from drinking sacred water, but that was when he had to fight King Piccolo, and drinking the water nearly killed him.

Misuderstanding the argument

He was insisting that Goku wanting the water in the first place was Goku being willing to take a free power up even though Goku had to work his ass off to get it and consciously chose not to steal it when he had the chance.

[JadedDM]

Also why exactly where the Potara given to Kale and Caulifla and not to Kale and Hit for Excample.

I don't think Hit would accept it. He works alone.

Also, Portara fusions are permanent, right? Or they're supposed to be, anyway. There probably aren't too many people willing to fuse together forever. Kale and Caulifa are very close, though, so they were likely the ones most willing to try it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I don't think Hit would accept it. He works alone.

Also, Portara fusions are permanent, right? Or they're supposed to be, anyway. There probably aren't too many people willing to fuse together forever. Kale and Caulifa are very close, though, so they were likely the ones most willing to try it.

This was the big retcon made to Potara fusion in the Future Trunks Saga, Potara fusion is only permanent between Supreme Kai. With anyone else it has a time limit and a time limit that will be burned through faster the more power the fusion uses.

This was probably done so they could actually have Vegito show up more and not have to jump through narrative loops to explain how Goku and Vegeta still exist and can have their ordinary lives and whatnot.

So Kale and Caulifla will not be fused permanently...the question is, do they know they have a time limit. Goku and Vegeta only found out cause Supreme Kai told them. The Supreme Kai of Universe 6 might not have or might not even know it isn't permanent and Vados doesn't seem the type to just volunteer information unless asked about it.

[lord_khaine]

Well the time limit would only be relevant if it was lower than how much time there is left of the tournament.

[Lord Raziere]

Well the time limit would only be relevant if it was lower than how much time there is left of the tournament.

They're going to be going super Saiyan fused according to the preview.

so yeah, probably relevant. saiyans always end up spending too much energy going full throttle while fused. they really need to learn moderation and efficient use of energy, make it last longer for both partners before the inevitable release, cause y'know, not every time should be a quickie, sometimes you want it to last even though it'll be less intense, cause why let that moment end so soon, when its so beautiful and you want that moment to be as long as you can make it for you and your partner y'know? its just good sense, sometimes you want something more lasting rather than something short and intense.

[Callos_DeTerran]

They're going to be going super Saiyan fused according to the preview.

It looked like Kefla went Berserker to me honestly.

[HolyDraconus]

Next, I bet goku will say something like "join me, and I will let you rule your own galaxy".. he's learning well from freiza

[Xihirli]

So the Supreme Kai of U6 still has both of his potara. Which means he had spares.

So I have a new team roster planned out for what I would fill my team with.

Twenty yardrats fuse with Potara before the tournament begins. I enter with ten fighters. They avoid all fights, using Instant Transmission to stay far away from all battles. Halfway through the tournament, all of my remaining fighters will un-fuse and I will have double whatever I had left in there. I only entered the tournament with ten people, this shouldn't be cheating any more than the multiform technique. Then they continue Instant Transmitting away from fights until time is called.

[Rakaydos]

So the Supreme Kai of U6 still has both of his potara. Which means he had spares.

So I have a new team roster planned out for what I would fill my team with.

Twenty yardrats fuse with Potara before the tournament begins. I enter with ten fighters. They avoid all fights, using Instant Transmission to stay far away from all battles. Halfway through the tournament, all of my remaining fighters will un-fuse and I will have double whatever I had left in there. I only entered the tournament with ten people, this shouldn't be cheating any more than the multiform technique. Then they continue Instant Transmitting away from fights until time is called.

And Zeno-sama calls it cheating anywy, because they're being boring, and deletes your universe.

[Jayngfet]

It's almost like being pedantic and clinging to RAW and random numbers is against what this story is about or something.

[Lord Raziere]

And Zeno-sama calls it cheating anywy, because they're being boring, and deletes your universe.

Yeah, there is reason why I'm not bothering to keep track of whether fusion counts for number advantage:
1. the Zenos are fickle childish beings and very likely didn't think any of this through
2. The High Priest who actually thinks things through here, hasn't made a ruling about it one way or another.

The Zenos entire reason is just to make sure the tournament follows dramatic/awesomeness rules rather than anything fair or well thought out. there is no point in trying to cheese the system, because the GM wants flashy awesome stuff to happen.

[Mikeavelli]

This reminds me, we were talking about Namekian fusions a while ago. Apparently Dragon Ball Multiverse has a character called Gast who started from Nail fusing with Super Kami Guru and a few other Namekians to defeat Freeza, and it just kinda snowballed from there.