Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[tigerusthegreat]

If you make an anti-pope, they become your religious head, right? So, is the pope's religious head the anti-pope?

I am going to do some testing tonight

[Grim Portent]

If you make an anti-pope, they become your religious head, right? So, is the pope's religious head the anti-pope?

You sparked my curiosity so I checked, the current Anti-Pope, Anastasius V, is listed as his own religious head, but the true Pope Innocentius IV lists himself as his religious head.

So the anti-pope remains his own religious head, but does not become he religious head of the Pope.

He does however become the religious head of all the other vassals of the Pope.

So everyone outside of the Pope's territory sees the Pope as the real one, everyone but the Pope inside his territory sees the anti-pope as the real one.

[Flickerdart]

Is it possible to change the county seat of Rome, so that the real Pope holds the Bishopric of Rome but the anti-Pope holds the County of Rome?

[Grim Portent]

Is it possible to change the county seat of Rome, so that the real Pope holds the Bishopric of Rome but the anti-Pope holds the County of Rome?

Yep, and that is in fact what has happened, the anti-Pope has the Bishopric Rome and the real Pope has the Bishopric of Anagni as the capital holding of Rome.

[tigerusthegreat]

Yep, and that is in fact what has happened, the anti-Pope has the Bishopric Rome and the real Pope has the Bishopric of Anagni as the capital holding of Rome.

Can I get exact steps on how you did this? Is it just:

Make bishop antipope
Give bishop's county to pope
Laugh?

[Grim Portent]

Can I get exact steps on how you did this? Is it just:

Make bishop antipope
Give bishop's county to pope
Laugh?

Conquested Rome as Germanic Pagan.
Converted to Catholic.
Made vassal bishop in the county of Rome anti-Pope.
Used the decision to restore the Pope to Rome.
All my former vassals in Rome were now the Pope's, including the anti-Pope.

EDIT: Interestingly the anti-Pope has stopped being an anti-Pope. The Pope lost his last county, but was still the liege of the Rome barony tier vassals (one of my vassals took the county, but couldn't take the rest because it was occupied by another noble.) He then lost his sole other county in Spoleto, making his vassals elsewhere independent, at which point the anti-Pope reverts to being a bishop.

[tigerusthegreat]

So I did some testing....

Spoiler

Show

The Pop has 4 Anti-Pope vassals. Moral Authority is 0. I failed to check to see if I can declare war on the Pope to depose an anti-pope or what happens if I win. There is a lot of things I could still test.

There appears to be no immediate limit. I imagine there will be some kind of crash eventually, but I ran out of counties I controlled with vassal bishops (mostly due to me failing to do some things properly in the set up).

[Grim Portent]

'Today on I'm the Pope, get the Others out of Here, we have 5 contestants who all say they're the true leader of Christendom. To sort this out, we're locking them in the Vatican for 4 weeks with a series of challenges and a private room where they can write down their personal feelings for your perusal, and you, the pious public, can vote out one pope each week.'

[tigerusthegreat]

'Today on I'm the Pope, get the Others out of Here, we have 5 contestants who all say they're the true leader of Christendom. To sort this out, we're locking them in the Vatican for 4 weeks with a series of challenges and a private room where they can write down their personal feelings for your perusal, and you, the pious public, can vote out one pope each week.'

I'm going to see how far I can get it before i crash something.

[Grim Portent]

You'll probably hit an overflow error in moral authority modifiers before anything else, though the graphic for showing anti-popes is of course already breaking in your screenshot.

I wonder which anti-pope is considered the religious head by the other vassals in the realm. Is it county based, or based on the first/last anti-pope to be added?

[Corvus]

Lost control of my republic, but only for a while. I'm sure the game cheated to make it happen :P

I had one of those crown focus improvements pop up and so took it even though it put me in debt. Now given I was at war and didn't want to incur the -25% morale penalty or desmene penalties i took a small amount out of the campaign fund. I only had a couple of months before I'd have enough to get become heir to the republic again.

So what happens a couple of days later? I died, for no apparent reason. Fit and healthy one day, dead the next.

And the new ruler of the republic? Not only did he destroy the Kingdom of Gotland title I had created (which now can't be reformed because it was a custom one grumble grumble) but he went on to steal three of my trade posts.

Needless to say I had him brutally murdered not long after and didn't care that people knew it was me. A -10 penalty is a small price to pay for getting the republic back. Turns out a lot of other people also weren't happy with him and were eager to help out.

The problem is that can't get my trade posts back. His family are now at 12 owned out of 3 allowed and even though I am under strength for trade posts I'm not given any options to revoke them like they did for me.

So that leaves only one option. Exterminate the entire treacherous family.

[tigerusthegreat]

You'll probably hit an overflow error in moral authority modifiers before anything else, though the graphic for showing anti-popes is of course already breaking in your screenshot.

I wonder which anti-pope is considered the religious head by the other vassals in the realm. Is it county based, or based on the first/last anti-pope to be added?

I will take detailed notes....any other curiosities?

[russdm]

Exterminate the entire treacherous family.

Isn't this the default solution to every problem, or most of them?

As I am watching TNG, I wonder if it is possible to have a mod, where you get special powers and can impersonate gods? Like for primitive peoples? It would be interesting I suppose.

Or hallucinations that taken to revelations from God. It would be interesting.

Or maybe can organize some cults and summon magic? What about vampires?

[Corvus]

Isn't this the default solution to every problem, or most of them?

I'm actually a fairly tolerant ruler and I've never tried to wipe a family out before. Sure, I have killed the odd baby, but who hasn't?

I prefer to humiliate than to kill. Like the time I forced teh Caliph to become a single county subject as a Nubian Miaphysite Emperor. Fun days. Or the type I seduced the ERE emperor's wife, declared a rivalry war on him when he complained, kept him imprisoned for a decade only to release him and then declare war on him against just to overthrow him and replace him with his sister who was married to a family member and so steal the ERE from his dynasty. Good times, good time.

[russdm]

I'm actually a fairly tolerant ruler and I've never tried to wipe a family out before. Sure, I have killed the odd baby, but who hasn't?

I prefer to humiliate than to kill. Like the time I forced teh Caliph to become a single county subject as a Nubian Miaphysite Emperor. Fun days. Or the type I seduced the ERE emperor's wife, declared a rivalry war on him when he complained, kept him imprisoned for a decade only to release him and then declare war on him against just to overthrow him and replace him with his sister who was married to a family member and so steal the ERE from his dynasty. Good times, good time.

Does that mean the game encourages you to be as much of monster as you can possibly can? I can get behind that, and devote time to seeing how much suffering I can create.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Isn't this the default solution to every problem, or most of them?

As I am watching TNG, I wonder if it is possible to have a mod, where you get special powers and can impersonate gods? Like for primitive peoples? It would be interesting I suppose.

Or hallucinations that taken to revelations from God. It would be interesting.

Or maybe can organize some cults and summon magic? What about vampires?

While impersonating a god to primitives sounds more like an EU4 thing, there are a number of CK2 events that essentially can be construed as your in-game characters and people interpreting dreams, hallucinations, or natural phenomena as supernatural events, to say nothing of the "possessed" trait.

Then there's the Cthulhu and Antichrist event chains which are pretty much straight up supernatural horror, complete with cults and summoning even before cults became a gameplay mechanic with the latest expansion.

As for Vampires, I'm still waiting for a Long Night DLC featuring Dark Ages Vampire characters ever since Paradox bought the WoD licenses.

Does that mean the game encourages you to be as much of monster as you can possibly can? I can get behind that, and devote time to seeing how much suffering I can create.

I mean, basically. It's kind of a running gag in the playerbase the number of positively vile options you have, and the fact that most of them are good syrategy (especially killing children to meddle in succession order). The Dark Ages are pretty dark.

[Gnoman]

I'm actually a fairly tolerant ruler and I've never tried to wipe a family out before. Sure, I have killed the odd baby, but who hasn't?

Just remember - if you get tired of a vassal constantly rebelling against you the way his father did, and decide just to wipe the whole family out, don't wimp out and leave a few of the toddlers alive. Learned that the hard way.

[tigerusthegreat]

Just remember - if you get tired of a vassal constantly rebelling against you the way his father did, and decide just to wipe the whole family out, don't wimp out and leave a few of the toddlers alive. Learned that the hard way.

Isn't that the plot to like....every Shakespeare Tragedy or something?


On the anti-pope front....

Spoiler

Show

So....got a little ridiculous. Doesn't seem to be an easy to get to floor for Moral Authority.

The main pope is always his own religious head.

The first anti-pope becomes head for everyone else.

After a bit, the pope starts getting rid of the anti-popes...unless he has high opinion of them. He kept at least one as his chancellor.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Isn't that the plot to like....every Shakespeare Tragedy or something?

Shakespeare Tragedy is leaving the adult or young adult son to come back and kick your ass in act 5. Greek Tragedy is the one where there's just one damn baby you miss or wimp out on killing directly and they end up being the one to cause all your problems. Also Abrahamic religion, now that I think about it.

[Wardog]

Ok, I've discovered that the total failure to reinforce is apparently due to the province having the wrong holding type.

Specifically, its the county of Araouane, which has a single town in it. I'm the ruler.

I've googled for answers, but can't work out how to fix it. It appears I need to turn it into a vassle, but the button to do that is greyed out.

What do I need to do?

[Malimar]

Ok, I've discovered that the total failure to reinforce is apparently due to the province having the wrong holding type.

Specifically, its the county of Araouane, which has a single town in it. I'm the ruler.

I've googled for answers, but can't work out how to fix it. It appears I need to turn it into a vassle, but the button to do that is greyed out.

What do I need to do?

Find a dude you want to give it to and use the Grant Landed Title diplomatic action on him to give him the problem county.

[Rockphed]

Find a dude you want to give it to and use the Grant Landed Title diplomatic action on him to give him the problem county.

If it is coastal, then give it and a duchy to some family member and watch the cash flow in.

[Corvus]

Success!

The rival family has been expunged. At least the males have. There are a few females left but they will die out. I did kind of feel bad that the last 4 to die were all kids, with the very last 0 years of age.

But on the positive side I inherited a duchy and a pile of cash.

Since then two other families have been removed from the competition but I still can't get my old trade posts yet. If I have to spent the next 400 years murdering families I will get them back.

Funnily, no one real complains that I'm a dishonest known murderer, at least not enough to make a fuss of it. Maybe because so many of them are complicit in the plots. Each murder is hitting 250-450% plot power without needing to resort to bribes.

Nice as the cash injections are - and the inheritance of land and trade posts - they are insignificant before the power of Viking raiding.

Seriously, the amount of cash you can get from going off looting and pillaging is ridiculous and fairly risk free as well. I land stacks of 10-12K troops, half of which are the Jomsvikings and are free of maintenance due to being vassals, and half my retinue and just burn the place to the ground by direct assaults. And given they are holy warriors and retinues they regenerate men even out in the field (and free for the holy warriors.)

I'm heading home with 1k+ gold at least once a year, not to mention captives (good for ransom, blots and concubinage if they have genetic traits) and plenty of treasures. Well, apart from the avant-guarde piece that was more like a booby prize. Thanks to it I get -1 diplomacy. I just hope that when the current ruler dies the next one doesn't inherit.

Viking raiding almost seems easy mode...

[Grim Portent]

I have abandoned the old faith in my Norse game. After one last Great Holy War against the Byzantines to claim Anatolia I destroyed the Fylkirate and converted to Catholic to prepare for the next papal Crusade. Unlike the previous times I converted this time I've told my vassals to follow suit. The lure of the Hermetic Society has proved to strong for me to resist.

This may well bite me in the rear before long. The Aztecs and Mongols are on their way, and unless I can take control of the Byzantine Empire title I might not have the strength to defeat them without my levy boost from being pagan. With any luck I can get some magnum opuses written up and gather some Christian relics to bolster my power before they arrive, not holding out much faith though.

If worst comes I'll try to convert back and reestablish the Fylkirate, but the turmoil of mass conversions isn't good for the realm.

[Malimar]

Nice as the cash injections are - and the inheritance of land and trade posts - they are insignificant before the power of Viking raiding.

Seriously, the amount of cash you can get from going off looting and pillaging is ridiculous and fairly risk free as well. I land stacks of 10-12K troops, half of which are the Jomsvikings and are free of maintenance due to being vassals, and half my retinue and just burn the place to the ground by direct assaults. And given they are holy warriors and retinues they regenerate men even out in the field (and free for the holy warriors.)

I'm heading home with 1k+ gold at least once a year, not to mention captives (good for ransom, blots and concubinage if they have genetic traits) and plenty of treasures. Well, apart from the avant-guarde piece that was more like a booby prize. Thanks to it I get -1 diplomacy. I just hope that when the current ruler dies the next one doesn't inherit.

Viking raiding almost seems easy mode...

And you get +1 moral authority every time you torch a church! Bonus!

[Nerd-o-rama]

Vikings are from Sweden, and therefore overpowered.

[Corvus]

And you get +1 moral authority every time you torch a church! Bonus!

Oh yeah, that too. I got it up to +27% MA from temple lootings at one point. Helps that Rome is made of churches. The Romans must be sick of Vikings turning up every couple of years to pillage and plunder. And the Venetians. But I'm an equal opportunity pillagers. I've ravaged Constantinople, London, Alexandria and everywhere in between.

I'm thinking of changing targets though. Catholic MA is down to 47% thanks to my efforts while the Sunni are still at 100% Need to get them down as well so that they can have the fun of heresy to occupy them.

It has been a bit of an odd game so far. The Black Death kicked off in 970 and killed off one of the republic great houses plus severely hurt the rest, including mine. Half of the adult males in court were gone, plus various children and other relatives. My ruler survived by the simple treatment of having his leg cut off. And then death turned up in the maskarade of a woman who killed off a concubine, nephew and three courtiers before leaving me disfigured. Apparently she took umbrage to me having parties while outside the population was dying in droves. The Crusades kicked off even earlier after Hispania invaded a badly fractured France. At one point France was a powerhouse, having taken Saxony and somehow brought Asturia into the Empire. Then it imploded worse than any decadence revolt. There are seven or eight successor nations out there now, easy pickings for the muslims and for the Norse.

What is really bizarre is East Africa. Nubia fell, as was normal but Abyssinia not only survived but has thrived, taking Arabia from Sanaa to Basra and usurping the title of King of Arabia in the process.

[Malimar]

So I'm playing a game with the "hordes can show up whenever" option, and the Aztecs steamrolled 900s Europe to the point of reforming their faith because nobody is built up enough to face their 150k doomstack, even with everybody teaming up against them. I'm over in Abyssinia, safe-ish from the Aztecs for now, and between decadence revolts and nomad invasions and the Shia Caliph Rising actually succeeding for once, the usual green blob of Arabia is fragmented, allowing me to gradually claw land away from them. I was thinking maybe by the time I have most of Africa I'll have enough to puncture the Aztecs, but probably not, because by that time the bulk of their landblob will be giving them enough levies to make up for depleted doomstacks.

[Grim Portent]

Best bet is probably to swear fealty and try to usurp them from within. Being Aztec isn't bad, I've done it. Strong religion/culture combo, and if you can press them to be elective it shouldn't be impossible to take over the empire.

Sacrifice message spam is atrocious though. Can't go more than a few weeks without some random getting shivved with an obsidian knife and the game deciding you should know.

[Malimar]

Best bet is probably to swear fealty and try to usurp them from within. Being Aztec isn't bad, I've done it. Strong religion/culture combo, and if you can press them to be elective it shouldn't be impossible to take over the empire.

Sacrifice message spam is atrocious though. Can't go more than a few weeks without some random getting shivved with an obsidian knife and the game deciding you should know.

That is a possibility. It's kind of a different direction than I had planned on going this game, but it's something to keep in mind as a possibility when our borders abut if they come after me.

EDIT: Well, the Aztec high priest declared great holy war for Egypt, which of course the Aztecs won, which put them right next to my Abyssinia-and-Nubia kingdom.

Then the Mongols waltzed up and took Arabia, putting them right next to me, too.

...Then the Mongols declared an invasion of Egypt, and their 100k doomstack broke the Aztec 100k doomstack, and now the whole region is in a much better place, except now I'm surrounded by Mongols on all sides and still have no chance of beating them with the like 9k I can field. Still, the Mongols are consistently at 90%+ threat, so the whole world gangs up on them every time they want to attack somebody, slowly whittling down their doomstack, currently at a slightly more manageable 60k.