Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[tonberrian]

I mean, maybe if they tried to have like 50 kids it'd be better. But the AI can't run merchant republics. Better to just put them out of their misery.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Apparently, there is a chain of events you can get where one family becomes your rival. But I wouldn't know, because after the first event fired and they refused to invite me to the hottest party of the season, I had their bloodline snuffed out.

Started with Romeo & Juliet, ended with the harsher versions of Sleeping Beauty. Good call.

Started trying Ireland again three times, first two I hit minor snags in the first steps of my plan to take over the world Ireland. So I just went screw it. I found it funny that the second and third times Norway ended up beating Normandy for the English throne (I think both times they captured William)

It basically comes down to the battle that happens immediately upon starting to the first 1066 bookmark, Stamford Bridge. Either it takes Norway's claimant out of the war because he loses, or he wins and it's a three-way grindfest that any of the claimants could win.

I had more success as the Irish with William winning the throne, surprisingly. He has to deal with the most rebellions, but also doesn't seem to favor Elective Monarchy the way Godwinson does, which makes it easier to marry into claims or the throne for my own dynasty. If Hardrade wins, though, I just reset because screw dealing with a Norway that big immediately.

[tyckspoon]

Started with Romeo & Juliet, ended with the harsher versions of Sleeping Beauty. Good call.

Those event chains feel so petty if you expand much at all.. last major run I had played as a Republic managed to get up to being the Merchant Empire of Italia (Started in Amalfi. Playing that again now, actually...) I'm responsible for all the trade of the Mediterranean as well as overseeing three kingdoms worth of land, and you want me to spend my energy being concerned about the pissant social status of one of the patricians in the old capital? He's not even a Duke! I ended up taking the 'this is silly, let's bury the hatchet and make peace' option as soon as one of the events allowed me to just so the game would stop pestering me about it.

(Besides, I regularly murder the top candidate from other families just to make sure some 80-year old senile fool who didn't know when to die doesn't sneak the election away from my family based entirely on the impressive achievement of 'being alive a long time.' Cheaper than throwing 500 ducats into my son's election fund. They should all hate me on principle for that, don't need any fancy event triggers!)

[Rockphed]

Apparently, there is a chain of events you can get where one family becomes your rival. But I wouldn't know, because after the first event fired and they refused to invite me to the hottest party of the season, I had their bloodline snuffed out.

I let it run its course. It ended when I caught my celibate, Knight of Calatrava son in bed with the daughter of the wicked Galbaio. After I told him never to see her again, we found them still warm and embraced in each-other's arms with a vial of poison in their hands.

Those event chains feel so petty if you expand much at all.. last major run I had played as a Republic managed to get up to being the Merchant Empire of Italia (Started in Amalfi. Playing that again now, actually...) I'm responsible for all the trade of the Mediterranean as well as overseeing three kingdoms worth of land, and you want me to spend my energy being concerned about the pissant social status of one of the patricians in the old capital? He's not even a Duke! I ended up taking the 'this is silly, let's bury the hatchet and make peace' option as soon as one of the events allowed me to just so the game would stop pestering me about it.

(Besides, I regularly murder the top candidate from other families just to make sure some 80-year old senile fool who didn't know when to die doesn't sneak the election away from my family based entirely on the impressive achievement of 'being alive a long time.' Cheaper than throwing 500 ducats into my son's election fund. They should all hate me on principle for that, don't need any fancy event triggers!)

So I just murdered the last of the other original families. I inherited 63K gold. Before I got them down to a single child I had a 12K campaign fund to keep my unlanded and untitled heir up with the king level doge of sicily. Before that, I ran in to a 70+ year old geezer who had me wasting like 8K on campaign funds. Murdering him was a crucial part of keeping my family as Grand Prince. Now I have 55 trade outposts in places from England to the Indian Ocean side of the Arabian Peninsula.

So, question for everyone: I have inherited about 20K retinues comprised of a healthy mix of shock, defense, skirmish, and cavalry (there were light skirmish too, but I disbanded them in disgust). I also have a few cataphracts. I am currently about 30K retinue support over my limit. Is it better to disband them (which will give me about 10K of retinues to hire), or to keep them. Or should I only keep some of them?

[tyckspoon]

So, question for everyone: I have inherited about 20K retinues comprised of a healthy mix of shock, defense, skirmish, and cavalry (there were light skirmish too, but I disbanded them in disgust). I also have a few cataphracts. I am currently about 30K retinue support over my limit. Is it better to disband them (which will give me about 10K of retinues to hire), or to keep them. Or should I only keep some of them?

I'd probably disband the cataphracts and maybe the cavalry; they're expensive and not great for what they do. Defense/Shock/Skirmish is fine if you aren't trying to completely min-max your retinues for particular cultural tactics, although it'd be somewhat more optimal to cut them all out and rebuild with only Defense or only Shock.

[Rockphed]

I'd probably disband the cataphracts and maybe the cavalry; they're expensive and not great for what they do. Defense/Shock/Skirmish is fine if you aren't trying to completely min-max your retinues for particular cultural tactics, although it'd be somewhat more optimal to cut them all out and rebuild with only Defense or only Shock.

I'm italian, though it seems that most of my vassals aren't so my commanders tend to be other things. Unled pike regiments still punch above their weight though, so I'm not too worried about the cultural italian tactics. I just trashed the armies of a Tibetan revolt while by letting his 20K stacks attack my 12 - 15K stacks of pikes. It was a bit dicey for a bit when my stack had just finished off one of his stacks and another showed up (I had missed it showing up because it was hiding behind a retreating broken stack. Fortunately, I had another 6K of pikes nearby that managed to arrive in time to turn the tide.

Let me throw up some numbers: I have a retinue limit of 265K. I currently have 291K of retinues. Last night I looked at my retinues and noticed that the 20K soldiers of non-italian retinues I have hanging out represent about 30 - 40K of retinue support, plus all the pikes in the defense regiments. Is it worth disbanding the 20K of soldiers to get 4 - 8K of extra pikes, or am I better off with the retinues I currently have.

And what would heavy cavalry and cataphracts need to cost, in terms of retinue support, to be worth using? I'm pretty sure that 400 pikes will beat 150 HC and 100 HA, so cataphracts should cost less than 1000. Maybe if HC cost 5 instead of 6.

[Artanis]

In that case, I'd say you might as well hang on to them until you have the retinue cap to replace them outright.

[Vinyadan]

I'm doing a game and I can't but notice how dumb a mechanic threat is. "Hi! So you conquered some lands? Please spend 40 years doing absolutely NOTHING! Makes for great gameplay!"

Does it make sense? Maybe, from a simulationist perspective; although I have yet to read of anyone bashing the Catholic Kings for ejecting the Muslims from Spain. But the gameplay consequences are dire, and also hard to understand, since there already are things like claims, truces, alliances and pacts to limit your expansion.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm doing a game and I can't but notice how dumb a mechanic threat is. "Hi! So you conquered some lands? Please spend 40 years doing absolutely NOTHING! Makes for great gameplay!"

Does it make sense? Maybe, from a simulationist perspective; although I have yet to read of anyone bashing the Catholic Kings for ejecting the Muslims from Spain. But the gameplay consequences are dire, and also hard to understand, since there already are things like claims, truces, alliances and pacts to limit your expansion.

You can 1) obiviate it by turning off defensive pacts via the game rules¹ (with a bit of save editing in an established game) though that might not be an option with ironman or 2) ignore it totally and retinue blitz, which will in most wars, allow you to get 100% warscore before the AI gets too organised, even if basically the entire world forms a defensive pact against you. (Note the latter might become more difficult in the late game, since (unless again, you turn it off in the game rules), you can't storm castles at the highter fortification levels).



¹Defensive pacts are formed by threat levels, and once you hit the cap, nations of all regions will form pacts against you, so if you think it's bad with 50 or so, try it at 90 when Christian and Muslim alike band together... A lot of people, quite reaspnabl,y find that very immersion-breaking.

[Malimar]

I'm doing a game and I can't but notice how dumb a mechanic threat is. "Hi! So you conquered some lands? Please spend 40 years doing absolutely NOTHING! Makes for great gameplay!"

Does it make sense? Maybe, from a simulationist perspective; although I have yet to read of anyone bashing the Catholic Kings for ejecting the Muslims from Spain. But the gameplay consequences are dire, and also hard to understand, since there already are things like claims, truces, alliances and pacts to limit your expansion.

From a gamist perspective, I think threat is one of the best things they've added to spice up the game. It makes the late game much less of a dull "conquering duchy after duchy with zero resistance" slog.

[tonberrian]

So I started a new game as a Zoroastrian count on the Silk Road, trying to spam artifacts for fun and profit.

Already got a Dragon Amulet, working on grabbing some magnum opuses. Magnum Opii?

[Malimar]

Already got a Dragon Amulet, working on grabbing some magnum opuses. Magnum Opii?

Magna opera, actually.

[Leecros]

It makes the late game much less of a dull "conquering duchy after duchy with zero resistance" slog.

It still pretty much is. The time defensive pacts actually matter the most is the mid-game before you become powerful enough to brute force your way through the defensive pact. Once you have about two Empires worth of land. The pacts become woefully insignificant.

You have the levy
You have the retinue
You have the money(to buy all the mercenaries)


The biggest thing that Defensive pacts do is increase the amount of time before the dull late game slog of "conquering duchy after duchy with zero minor resistance". In that sense, it does its job very well.

[tonberrian]

Two magna opera down, 4 to go.

[Rockphed]

It still pretty much is. The time defensive pacts actually matter the most is the mid-game before you become powerful enough to brute force your way through the defensive pact. Once you have about two Empires worth of land. The pacts become woefully insignificant.

You have the levy
You have the retinue
You have the money(to buy all the mercenaries)


The biggest thing that Defensive pacts do is increase the amount of time before the dull late game slog of "conquering duchy after duchy with zero minor resistance". In that sense, it does its job very well.

My biggest complaint about defensive pacts is that they seem to evaporate when I inherit. This lets me declare war on a bundle of people and then prosecute those wars over a couple years.

[tonberrian]

Is there any way to take artifacts from prisoners? I have the lord protector of China in my prison due to society shenanigans, and I'd really like to take his Art of War.

[SZbNAhL]

Is there any way to take artifacts from prisoners? I have the lord protector of China in my prison due to society shenanigans, and I'd really like to take his Art of War.

Short of recruiting them, killing off their bloodlines and then inheriting (which I don't think would work in this instance), no. At least, not that I know of.

[Vinyadan]

My biggest complaint about defensive pacts is that they seem to evaporate when I inherit. This lets me declare war on a bundle of people and then prosecute those wars over a couple years.

That actually makes sense, because of how all pacts in the game are made with the monarch, instead of with his kingdom. So non-aggression pacts also need to be made again.

But defensive treaties aren't just bad, they are bugged. Each time I load a game, there is a small window of time in which the participants leave them, and rebuild them after a couple of months. Which makes threat even more annoying, since you can just save & quit and load again.

Next time, I will deactivate the mechanic. This game ended nicely, with the last emperor inheriting Hispania, Britannia and Francia from his father, the ERE from his mother, and being married to the Kaiserin, with a son to inherit everything.

[Rockphed]

That actually makes sense, because of how all pacts in the game are made with the monarch, instead of with his kingdom. So non-aggression pacts also need to be made again.

But defensive treaties aren't just bad, they are bugged. Each time I load a game, there is a small window of time in which the participants leave them, and rebuild them after a couple of months. Which makes threat even more annoying, since you can just save & quit and load again.

Next time, I will deactivate the mechanic. This game ended nicely, with the last emperor inheriting Hispania, Britannia and Francia from his father, the ERE from his mother, and being married to the Kaiserin, with a son to inherit everything.

Yeah, I think next game I will turn them off again. It was interesting for the short while where taking a duchy would give 15% threat and taking a county would give 5% threat, but when it takes 10 years to drop 25% and taking a small duchy gives 30 - 50% threat, I just found it annoying. Mostly I would take lands from rebellions, so I have left France as a strip from the flanders coast, through paris, to Mainz, I think. Plus there was the whole drama of my giving Al Jizera to a strong claimant to the French throne, and then he died before I did so the king of France inherited.

Then there is the annoyance that I cannot give out Viceroyalties as a merchant republic. I dropped from low centralization to medium centralization in an attempt to keep my realm from splintering on inheritance, but I still ended up bumping against the vassal limit, so I have taken to trying to imprison vassals who are at war, fighting them down, and then taking their kingdoms to give to another. Normally I give them to merchant republics since those seem to stay together better. For instance, Scotland and Acquitain are currently a merchant republic. So are Wales, Egypt, Syria, Punjab, and Croatia. I think there is time for 1 more Crusade. Any suggestions on making sure it is a large kingdom instead of a small one?

[tonberrian]

Heck yeah! Got the Emerald Tablet!

[Rockphed]

Heck yeah! Got the Emerald Tablet!

Is this a Jade Dragon thing? Also, the more I hear about Jade Dragon, the more I want it. No clue when the budget will allow, however.

[Maryring]

Is this a Jade Dragon thing? Also, the more I hear about Jade Dragon, the more I want it. No clue when the budget will allow, however.

It's a hermetic thing IIRC. You get it by getting lucky with an expedition to Alexandria. You know when one of your fellow society members want you to mount an expedition? Occasionally they find a clue leading to Alexandria. If you follow the clue and pass the luck check, you'll get the Emerald Tablet, in all it's Learning boosting glory.

[Rockphed]

It's a hermetic thing IIRC. You get it by getting lucky with an expedition to Alexandria. You know when one of your fellow society members want you to mount an expedition? Occasionally they find a clue leading to Alexandria. If you follow the clue and pass the luck check, you'll get the Emerald Tablet, in all it's Learning boosting glory.

That is perhaps the first thing I have heard that made me want to actually get monks and mystics.

[tonberrian]

Sadly that run ended up dead due to a liege that wanted to neuter me so he took all my stuff (he even gave me back vassals who had taken my various counties before he ended up taking back the duchy).

But yeah, the Hermetics are pretty great. The various Magna Opera are really neat artifacts that you can build for fun and profit, you can hunt down Alexandria and the Green Tablet, and once you get high enough you can start spawning Invention events and get things like a gun, plate armor, or a magnetic compass.

[tonberrian]

So I've been playing for a while now, am in a pretty solid setup as a vassal king of the Abbasids in Persia at the moment. My biggest problem right now, though, is the Shia Caliphate and their god-forsaken event troops. They seemed to spawn a bunch when they invaded Arabia and they haven't gone away? What do? They've already holy-warred one of my duchies (after I took it like the year before - easy come easy go, I guess). I don't think I could win an independence war on my own at the moment, but it's obvious my liege can't hold back the Shia as is.

[Rockphed]

So I've been playing for a while now, am in a pretty solid setup as a vassal king of the Abbasids in Persia at the moment. My biggest problem right now, though, is the Shia Caliphate and their god-forsaken event troops. They seemed to spawn a bunch when they invaded Arabia and they haven't gone away? What do? They've already holy-warred one of my duchies (after I took it like the year before - easy come easy go, I guess). I don't think I could win an independence war on my own at the moment, but it's obvious my liege can't hold back the Shia as is.

Can your liege hold off the Shia with your help? Alternatively, do you plan to go Shia as soon as you are independent? How many event troops are we talking about here? With the latest patch you can offer to join your liege's wars, so your victories count for war-score. Your occupations count either way.

[SZbNAhL]

So I've been playing for a while now, am in a pretty solid setup as a vassal king of the Abbasids in Persia at the moment. My biggest problem right now, though, is the Shia Caliphate and their god-forsaken event troops. They seemed to spawn a bunch when they invaded Arabia and they haven't gone away? What do? They've already holy-warred one of my duchies (after I took it like the year before - easy come easy go, I guess). I don't think I could win an independence war on my own at the moment, but it's obvious my liege can't hold back the Shia as is.

Does your realm have religious revocation? If not, you could probably hang onto your land as a Shiite until the Caliph holy wars it, then continue as his vassal. Alternatively, go Shiite, ally with the Caliph and go independent with his support.

[tonberrian]

I should note that I'm zoroastrian, so going shiite is not a viable option.

But the event troops all disappeared when the Caliph died and was succeeded, so all's good now.

[Avilan the Grey]

I bought the latest DLC today.
Now I just need to decide who to play as...

How far East do you have to go to interact with China?

[tonberrian]

I bought the latest DLC today.
Now I just need to decide who to play as...

How far East do you have to go to interact with China?

A little further than the Byzantine empire, I think, though one of the game rules might change it to everywhere? Never fiddled with that one. Generally the Sunni caliphate is far enough.