Crusader Kings II Thread IV: Time to Create a New Title

[Rockphed]

And I died. The division of the empire among me and my brothers is really confusing for this new player. So much isn't what it would be de jure.

My one brother has a kingdom of one county and a duchy with no counties in it. He's pissed at me because his one county isn't in his de jure kingdom (I think), and so wants both the duchy his county is in, and the duchy in his de jure kingdom, both of which are under me. But he has a one-castle army, so I'm thinking I can just ignore him. I'm annoyed he got my old capital county, but it doesn't seem worth the bother to try to take it from him.

My other brother has five whole counties under him: one of his own, one as a vassal, and three not in the de jure kingdom split between two duchies both held by the same duke. He's annoyed that he doesn't have the other de jure duchy for his kingdom. But again he has a 2.2k army so maybe just ignore him. His two-duchy duke, however, is also really pissed at me because he doesn't have all the counties in his duchies, has a 3.8k army, and likes my brother his king.

The dukes under me are more worryingly powerful, up to a 7.5k army and eight counties, but they all have positive opinions of me.

Seems like I should be doing something to sort this out, but I'm not sure what will make it better or worse.

You might be able to revoke the first brother's county by plot. You probably can at least usurp his kingdom. The duchy is less important to keep around, but kingdoms are kinda a pain to re-create if some chucklehead gets them destroyed. And you can plot to usurp counties from dukes that aren't in their de-jure duchy.

[tonberrian]

In all my time playing CK2, this is the weirdest thing that's happened to me (and that's saying a lot): I'm playing as a Zoraostrian king of Daylam, vassal of the Sunni Caliphate. Somehow I inherit the Duchy of Derbent from a Sunni Emira (!) with no relation to me AT ALL, who was vassal to an independent Sultan of Armenia, when he burnt her at the stake. I can only assume it's a bug, but hey, Bank Error in your favor, don't look the gift horse in the mouth.

[BannedInSchool]

You might be able to revoke the first brother's county by plot. You probably can at least usurp his kingdom. The duchy is less important to keep around, but kingdoms are kinda a pain to re-create if some chucklehead gets them destroyed. And you can plot to usurp counties from dukes that aren't in their de-jure duchy.

The empty duchy held by my brother was all de jure counties held by one of the expansive dukes under me, so I was thinking of revoking that from my brother and using it to hamstring that duke. My brother resisted having the empty duchy revoked by conspiracy and was crushed, and then in jail I took his lone county by demand. But that poofed the kingdom title too. I could recreate it since it's in the de jure empire and all mine if that'd be a good idea. It would include the whole of one of my other brother's two-duchy duke duchies. Ugh, but I don't even know what it'd mean to have the vassal duke of my king brother have one of his duchies have all of its counties (which are right now part of my brother's scattered kingdom) be de jure in a kingdom held by me. I'd have to plot or fight to have those counties become part of the new kingdom?

Speaking of creating kingdoms, is there any reason to create the other "missing" kingdoms inside my de jure empire?

[Rockphed]

The empty duchy held by my brother was all de jure counties held by one of the expansive dukes under me, so I was thinking of revoking that from my brother and using it to hamstring that duke. My brother resisted having the empty duchy revoked by conspiracy and was crushed, and then in jail I took his lone county by demand. But that poofed the kingdom title too. I could recreate it since it's in the de jure empire and all mine if that'd be a good idea. It would include the whole of one of my other brother's two-duchy duke duchies. Ugh, but I don't even know what it'd mean to have the vassal duke of my king brother have one of his duchies have all of its counties (which are right now part of my brother's scattered kingdom) be de jure in a kingdom held by me. I'd have to plot or fight to have those counties become part of the new kingdom?

Speaking of creating kingdoms, is there any reason to create the other "missing" kingdoms inside my de jure empire?

Unless you are intent on having king-level vassals (which you will need when your empire gets large, but probably not right now), there really isn't any reason to create de-jure kingdoms. And when you do have king-level vassals, you are better off only creating enough kingdoms so each king has about 15 duke or count level vassals. If you hold a kingdom, it is hard to give its de jure vassals to a vassal king, and it is generally unwise to have multi-king vassals. They tend to split their holdings, increasing your vassal number without increasing your realm size. On the other hand, creating extra titular kingdoms is fun and often pushes your score significantly higher.

Yes, I am aware that nobody cares about score. I like watching the numbers tick higher.

[Thufir]

Unless you are intent on having king-level vassals (which you will need when your empire gets large, but probably not right now), there really isn't any reason to create de-jure kingdoms. And when you do have king-level vassals, you are better off only creating enough kingdoms so each king has about 15 duke or count level vassals. If you hold a kingdom, it is hard to give its de jure vassals to a vassal king, and it is generally unwise to have multi-king vassals. They tend to split their holdings, increasing your vassal number without increasing your realm size. On the other hand, creating extra titular kingdoms is fun and often pushes your score significantly higher.

Yes, I am aware that nobody cares about score. I like watching the numbers tick higher.

I hadn't thought about the extra score. Personally I've created a couple of titular kingdoms and given them out to try and drift land into them (i.e. "Screw you Hungary with the stupid culture restriction to create you, you are now Portugal.")

[BannedInSchool]

Unless you are intent on having king-level vassals (which you will need when your empire gets large, but probably not right now), there really isn't any reason to create de-jure kingdoms. And when you do have king-level vassals, you are better off only creating enough kingdoms so each king has about 15 duke or count level vassals.

That's what I was thinking. While I was trying to form the empire it seemed like it would have been nice if my cousins hadn't let their kingdom, its title, and all claimants pass away along with its duchies, but now that it's all de jure in the empire I didn't see a real reason for recreating them. Well, I have my mind on re-creating the six-county duchy and making it mine, all mine, BWAHAHAHAHAAA.

And another funny little anecdote: when my brother/vassal/king disapproved of taking away his empty duchy title a single county in France decided to press my entirely unlanded uncle's claim on one of my kingdoms. He looked pretty embarrassed about it in the dungeon afterwards.

[BannedInSchool]

I don't think the AI has thought this through. My vassal-king brother's two-duchy duke, who hates me because I have counties that should be in his duchies, is revolting against my brother to put my childless, with a 45yo wife, homosexual uncle, of whom I am the heir, on my brother's throne.
This being after my brother disbanded his faction to claim the empire from me. I could just feel his spirit being crushed, and now his duke is revolting with a 2:1 troop advantage. It's really not going his way. But, hey, he's not title-less in a dungeon...yet.

[BannedInSchool]

I don't think the AI has thought this through. My vassal-king brother's two-duchy duke, who hates me because I have counties that should be in his duchies, is revolting against my brother to put my childless, with a 45yo wife, homosexual uncle, of whom I am the heir, on my brother's throne.

And now Uncle Lope is plotting to fabricate a claim on a duchy of the duke that's revolting to put him on the throne. There's gratitude for ya. Or maybe it's a fallback position. I don't think I really need or want that kingdom personally since it's already in the empire, but if the whole lot of them were in my dungeon for their skulduggery with or without their titles that'd calm things down.

[Thufir]

And another funny little anecdote: when my brother/vassal/king disapproved of taking away his empty duchy title a single county in France decided to press my entirely unlanded uncle's claim on one of my kingdoms. He looked pretty embarrassed about it in the dungeon afterwards.

I've found that the AI seems to be somewhat overzealous in pressing people's claims sometimes, and also overestimates its chances based on its opponent already being in another war.
I mean, in principle it can make sense to attack someone when they're already fighting someone else as their forces will be distracted and may end up depleted, but the specific instance I remember was the 2-county Petty Kingdom of Jorvik trying to press someone's county claim against my Empire of Scandinavia, with his 560 troops. Even if my war against West Francia had gone badly I'd still have had a huge advantage and in any case he was pretty much incapable of sieging any of my holdings even if I made no attempt to fight him (In fact I won the French war and then figured "Well, I've already got these 30k troops grouped up, I might as well just take them all to England.")

[Rockphed]

I've found that the AI seems to be somewhat overzealous in pressing people's claims sometimes, and also overestimates its chances based on its opponent already being in another war.
I mean, in principle it can make sense to attack someone when they're already fighting someone else as their forces will be distracted and may end up depleted, but the specific instance I remember was the 2-county Petty Kingdom of Jorvik trying to press someone's county claim against my Empire of Scandinavia, with his 560 troops. Even if my war against West Francia had gone badly I'd still have had a huge advantage and in any case he was pretty much incapable of sieging any of my holdings even if I made no attempt to fight him (In fact I won the French war and then figured "Well, I've already got these 30k troops grouped up, I might as well just take them all to England.")

I once tried breaking the mongol hoard and had my army broken rather hilariously. I think I ended up with 3 rebellious factions going off. I was fighting them down for like 10 years. Fortunately, they were all vieing for my crown, so I only had to keep putting down their armies until I could retake the few holdings they had captured. Fighting in a very marine area makes out-maneuvering the AI easy. I grouped my army up in a 20k stack and managed to pick off their 10k stacks before they had a chance to group up.

[BannedInSchool]

I've found that the AI seems to be somewhat overzealous in pressing people's claims sometimes, and also overestimates its chances based on its opponent already being in another war.

It's a little defensible considering that a small chance of success now can have a better expected result than waiting for a better chance later that may never come. And if it's not your claim you're not the one going in the hole.

[Thufir]

It's a little defensible considering that a small chance of success now can have a better expected result than waiting for a better chance later that may never come. And if it's not your claim you're not the one going in the hole.

True, though in the case of Jorvik my indignant reaction did move him to the top of my list of people to wipe off the map (which didn't take very long of course since I'd just assaulted all his holdings in the course of the defensive war so it was really easy to just walk in and do it a second time).

[BannedInSchool]

True, though in the case of Jorvik my indignant reaction did move him to the top of my list of people to wipe off the map (which didn't take very long of course since I'd just assaulted all his holdings in the course of the defensive war so it was really easy to just walk in and do it a second time).

Because otherwise you and everyone else would have left them unmolested on their clear path to victory, as the game is called Peaceful Coexistence II.

New Player: Just totally boned supply limits on my first serious attempt at Crusading in the mountains of Turkey.

[Thufir]

Because otherwise you and everyone else would have left them unmolested on their clear path to victory, as the game is called Peaceful Coexistence II.

Hey, if he hadn't had the audacity to attack me I might have let him be for another decade or so, which is a lot more than he actually got.

In more recent weirdness:

Spoiler

Show

Er... how did that guy get there?

[Rockphed]

New Player: Just totally boned supply limits on my first serious attempt at Crusading in the mountains of Turkey.

The low supply limits in the mountains of Turkey are a feature that vastly helps the Byzantines in defensive wars with the persians.

[tonberrian]

Hey, if he hadn't had the audacity to attack me I might have let him be for another decade or so, which is a lot more than he actually got.

In more recent weirdness:

Spoiler

Show

Er... how did that guy get there?

This is making me laugh more than it should.

Got off on a playing kick recently, started the ball rolling as a Zoroastrian in Abbasid Caliphate. Right now I've managed to grab the kingdom of Persia, and it's really helpful that the AI hates messy vassals more than it hates foreign heathens - he keeps gifting me vassals. He even once gave me a totally unrelated duchy (well it's Persian de jure, but before I had the Persian crown). The immediate problem was that the holder was his firstborn. Still, I had religious revocation rights, and tried that hoping to pass it off on a dying king, but he died in the middle. Then I imprisoned the heir to the empire for treason, and took all his land. Good thing I was sufficiently large that the AI decided it was not a fight worth fighting. Also, the opinion penalty for imprisoning children only lasts for 10 years?

Flash forward to the present, I'm minding my own business and I happen to see that the latest Caliph hates me at -75 for some reason I don't remember causing. It turns out that, like, over a decade ago I had taken some random barony from him in my purge of the Sunni from the heart of Persia. Oops. Still, I'm roughly 3/5 as many troops as the emperor and that's before I go independent and get my full forces and he loses my contribution. I'm feeling like it's about time to declare independence, and I can buy a favor off the Sultan of Egypt to ensure he joins me. And since the Shia spawned off on the northern coast of Africa, that leaves the next possible challenge Seljuk.

[BannedInSchool]

The low supply limits in the mountains of Turkey are a feature that vastly helps the Byzantines in defensive wars with the persians.

Well, the Crusade was going on forever, so I got to return and split my army into six to wander through the mountains. I got those final few percent to end the stupid thing, and now I'm king of Anatolia having contributed 40% of the score with my repeat excursions. I guess I'll get to play Oprah here. You get a county. And you get a county!

Hmm, while I was playing around in Turkey the Aztecs conquered Great Britain and Scandinavia. Harumph. I've got kin in those places. You know, as part of my plot to have them myself.

[Wardog]

I had one of my sons educated by a Viking, and he came back with Norse culture and Germanic religion. Eventually he inherited the leadership of my House (but unfortunately not the dogeship, because the leading competitor got ahead, and then I almost immediately got killed in battle, I could boost the election fund).

Spoiler: (I presume "Fell asleep" is meant as a euphemism for "died", or did he actual fall asleep in the middle of a battle and get killed as a result?)

Show

So now I'm the president of the Republic of Fez, and head of House Bambuk, and an infidel.

This had some down sides. The Spirit Warriors packed up and left in a huff, and everyone hates me. Most annoyingly, I now no longer have any coastal holdings with shipyards (and my new ruler was stupid enough to move the capital inland, so I can't use my House ship levies) thereby negating most of the reasons I had my heir raised as a viking.

Also, did I say everyone hates me?

Spoiler

Show

My wife, my son, at least one of my concubines, and a bunch of other people all joined a plot to kill me. And when I asked them to stop, they agreeed - only to immediately join another.

Fortunately, I managed to survive, and many years later, finally managed to get elected doge.

Finally, I can introduce to the realm some of the interesting foreign ideas I encountered while being educated abroad.

Spoiler: Hello Pope Honorious II. Can I interest you in the Republic of Mali's latest export? It's called "Coastal Conquest CB".

Show

Hey, Venice. Don't worry. We've got enough for you too.

The Pope is not happy about my conquest of Rome (the fact that I gave all his churches to my nieces can't help), and keeps declaring war on me to retake it. And inevitably loses. (It doesn't help his cause that he now has no holdings, so keeps hiring mercenaries, which appear in Rome with zero moral and promptly get routed by the (much smaller) levies that I raise there.

Spoiler

Show

This particular war laster longer than most, purely because it took that long for the Pope to actually hire the mercs:

[BannedInSchool]

Geeze, HRE, you want to drag the Byzantines into a three-empire war over a single de jure county claim? Fine, while they're running amok in Turkey I'll sack your capital while I'm at it.

[tonberrian]

I'm enjoying being the emperor of Persia. Still, it's disheartening to know that no matter how many troops I get, it's not going to be enough to stop Seljuk. I'll probably have to let his targets go and then jump on him when he''s sacking them.

[SZbNAhL]

Spoiler: (I presume "Fell asleep" is meant as a euphemism for "died", or did he actual fall asleep in the middle of a battle and get killed as a result?)

Show

I think that's the West African equivalent of "went to [deity's name]". Not sure if it's an actual part of West African culture or just a generic line they wrote so that they didn't have to research the afterlives of all the minor religions.

Spoiler: Hello Pope Honorious II. Can I interest you in the Republic of Mali's latest export? It's called "Coastal Conquest CB".

Show

Hey, Venice. Don't worry. We've got enough for you too.

The Pope is not happy about my conquest of Rome (the fact that I gave all his churches to my nieces can't help), and keeps declaring war on me to retake it. And inevitably loses. (It doesn't help his cause that he now has no holdings, so keeps hiring mercenaries, which appear in Rome with zero moral and promptly get routed by the (much smaller) levies that I raise there.

Have fun fighting off a crusade every 10 years after 900.

[Caelestion]

So-and-so "fell asleep in the Lord" is an archaic Christian term for passing away too.

[Leecros]

I'm enjoying being the emperor of Persia. Still, it's disheartening to know that no matter how many troops I get, it's not going to be enough to stop Seljuk. I'll probably have to let his targets go and then jump on him when he''s sacking them.

It's plausable that Seljuk might not even appear if you've gutted the region with Persian Culture rulers. Especially if you've pushed into Khorasan and Turkestan already.

And you're certainly not getting The Ghaznavids. Sabuktigin only appears in muslim-held Kabulistan.

[Avilan the Grey]

So-and-so "fell asleep in the Lord" is an archaic Christian term for passing away too.

I'ts not even arcaic. At least not in Sweden. "Fell asleep" is what we usually say if someone dies in a non-violent way.

[druid91]

Have fun fighting off a crusade every 10 years after 900.

Depends on how things are going elsewhere in Europe. I just took Rome as a Viking Lord in my current playthrough, but because the Reformed Germanic faith has been pretty consistently sacking Catholic Holy Sites and winning holy wars, Catholocism's Moral Authority has tanked. Meaning they're getting heresies by the dozen, Christendom is fractured into a bunch of different internecine conflicts over minor doctrinal differences while the Ummayid's and I take giant bites out of Europe.


And somehow or another one of the Khazan Tribes out east, way out of my sphere of influence became Germanic? Not really sure HOW that happened.

[Thufir]

Have fun fighting off a crusade every 10 years after 900.

That seems unlikely given that they can only be declared every 30. But yeah, best be prepared to be crusaded.

[Artanis]

And somehow or another one of the Khazan Tribes out east, way out of my sphere of influence became Germanic? Not really sure HOW that happened.

IIRC, the steppe tribes like to send their sons out to be mercenaries for a while, and said sons tend to convert while they're out and about. One probably converted to Germanic, then came back and inherited the tribe.

[tonberrian]

Elective: I don't care who you vote for, as long as my guy wins. If someone else is winning, heads will roll.

Edit: Also, I must have missed a cultured ruler, because Seljuk invaded. Looked like from somewhere in Tibet. On the plus side, he didn't have attrition-proof stacks and he wasted a few on besieging forts, and also didn't immediately throw everything into a death ball as I attacked him, so I was able to push his 10k stacks off with my 12-16k stacks.

Edit the second: And kids are weird. They'll get a huge -50 or -100 "Murdered a close relative" opinion penalty for finding out exactly that, but kill one off after you arrest him for plotting to murder your heir and they only care -10.

[Flickerdart]

And you're certainly not getting The Ghaznavids. Sabuktigin only appears in muslim-held Kabulistan.

Fun fact: if you google Sabuktigin, the portrait in the info box is the CKII one.

[Rockphed]

Fun fact: if you google Sabuktigin, the portrait in the info box is the CKII one.

I'm not sure whether to be impressed by how much CKII has permeated the cultural landscape, or impressed that google decided that a bad picture is better than no picture at all.