Princess Celestia's Homebrew Corner

[Grod_The_Giant]

Aha! I found a Supernatual Ability List! There's some fun stuff on here. Did you know that a Hoary Steed can, at 12th level, give you Astral Projection at-will?

[Celestia]

Ehhh... well... 3.5 classes do have an insane range of power, from single-classed Monks to Wizard/Incantrix/IotSVs, so it's hard to make categorical statements like "this class is too strong." The best you can usually do is "this class' floor is higher than many groups will be comfortable with" or "this class is objectively better than comparable options."

And, well... your Beastbound Shifter is objectively better than comparable options-- as I said, it blows the standard Wild Shape Ranger/MoMF/Warshaper right out of the water. It does the same for a hypothetical Divine Minion/MoMF/Warshaper, too. It's got much more power than a Warblade, a Duskblade, a Psychic Warrior, a Totemist. That's what I mean when I say it's too strong. Does that make sense?

No, it does not make sense. It still sounds like you're just complaining about the fact that I gave martial a nice thing. In fact, the more you explain it, the more it sounds like I'm not supposed to be making martial good, that I'm not allowed to make something stronger than the canon classes. That's a notion that I just cannot agree with, and I feel like discussing this further will yield nothing for either of us.

It's far from clear. Other sources say other things, and the overall situation is pretty crazy. And, as you say, usually. This definitely isn't a, "Spellcasting is explicitly natural in all cases, and they forgot in this case." It's a, "Spellcasting happens to place in natural by dint of some rules interactions, but in this case they explicitly made it an ability type at all." This argument happens all the time, and it definitely isn't solved instantly by way of that quote.

Now you're just getting into the fundamental issues of the system at large, and those run so deep that there's no way for me not to run afoul of them. What do you expect me to do? Make it exactly like Wild Shape? Then why play this rather than druid? Add abilities that have little to no connection to shapeshifting? Then the class has no focus. Base wild shape already gives extraordinary abilities. The only step up from that which is still relevant to the core design is to add supernatural abilities. What other choice do I have?

It's not just MoMF as a base class. It's way stronger. You get supernatural abilities, for one thing, extraordinary special qualities really early, for another, and magical beasts, which is a really broad and potentially problematic type, for a third. Is it as strong as a druid? Probably not. Could it still plausibly play at lower tier one levels without any outside resources used, just because you know the books real good? Very possibly. You're getting these kinda variable and crazy abilities so early.

There is still an HD limit here, you know. Getting extraordinary qualities from level one doesn't break anything when your only options are 1HD animals. What's that going to give you? Scent and low-light vision? Yes, there are some powerful qualities out there, but to get them, you have to already be a high enough level that they're relatively standard fare. And getting more powerful from reading every source book is nothing new. Spellcasters have been doing that since day one. The variability in power this class has is absolutely no different than that.

And, honestly, for all I know, it could be stronger than a druid, at least from 10th level on. Su abilities are sometimes spells. Really often, when that happens, this class will have access to it, and they can do so at no cost at any time. If that set of spells is reasonably close in power to an optimized druid list (I have no idea whether this is the case), then this is clearly better than a druid. Accounting for stuff like a beholder's crazy multiple per per turn thing, I wouldn't be at all surprised. So, in summary, it may or may not be the case that this is just the most powerful class. And I'm not sure which because I haven't read every monster in the world. At that level, what you have isn't really wild shape any more. It's a whole hell of a lot closer to shapechange.

Perhaps. I won't pretend that I understand the system enough to definitively say whether or not this is stronger than druid. I think not as I believe that you are hilariously undervaluing spellcasting, but that's neither here nor there. The point I'm trying to make is that you are hilariously ignoring the existence of DMs. Yes, there are cheesy exports that can be done here, but do you really thinks DMs are just going to let that happen and then get upset when their games are ruined? No, of course not. It is entirely possible to play this class without ruining everything just like it's possible to play a full caster without ruining everything. You can play a wizard without creating an infinite wish loop, and you can play a beastblood shifter without exploiting overpowered abilities. I'm not sure why you seem to be treating my class differently.

[eggynack]

No, it does not make sense. It still sounds like you're just complaining about the fact that I gave martial a nice thing. In fact, the more you explain it, the more it sounds like I'm not supposed to be making martial good, that I'm not allowed to make something stronger than the canon classes. That's a notion that I just cannot agree with, and I feel like discussing this further will yield nothing for either of us.

This isn't precisely martial, is the thing. You get a ton of stuff that is deeply casterly, and a lot of the power of this class is going to wind up coming from that casting capability.

Now you're just getting into the fundamental issues of the system at large, and those run so deep that there's no way for me not to run afoul of them. What do you expect me to do? Make it exactly like Wild Shape? Then why play this rather than druid? Add abilities that have little to no connection to shapeshifting? Then the class has no focus. Base wild shape already gives extraordinary abilities. The only step up from that which is still relevant to the core design is to add supernatural abilities. What other choice do I have?

Yes, I am getting into the fundamental issues of the system at large. That's my point. When you make an ability this incredibly broad, you dive deep into those fundamental issues. I don't really expect you to do anything, or care all that much about what you do with this information. I'm just pointing out that this class is likely way stronger than you think. Also, base wild shape does give extraordinary abilities, but only special attacks. If you wanted a point of differentiation, the fact that you get at-will access to those extraordinary special qualities, perhaps MoMF style later on in the class, could be it. Or, y'know, the fact that you have so many accessible forms. MoMF is worse than druid, but it's not strictly worse. There's plausible room in between this and the MoMF where differentiation from the druid exists. I mean, jeez, leaving aside anything aside from type and size, you're already getting cryohydra form at level eight. You could literally stop everything aside from HD progression at that exact point and you'd have an incredibly capable melee character.

There is still an HD limit here, you know. Getting extraordinary qualities from level one doesn't break anything when your only options are 1HD animals. What's that going to give you? Scent and low-light vision? Yes, there are some powerful qualities out there, but to get them, you have to already be a high enough level that they're relatively standard fare. And getting more powerful from reading every source book is nothing new. Spellcasters have been doing that since day one. The variability in power this class has is absolutely no different than that.

It's not necessarily immediately crazy, no. You can do crazy stuff pretty fast though. And yes, casters do that kinda thing. It's not ideal when they do it either.

Perhaps. I won't pretend that I understand the system enough to definitively say whether or not this is stronger than druid. I think not as I believe that you are hilariously undervaluing spellcasting, but that's neither here nor there. The point I'm trying to make is that you are hilariously ignoring the existence of DMs. Yes, there are cheesy exports that can be done here, but do you really thinks DMs are just going to let that happen and then get upset when their games are ruined? No, of course not. It is entirely possible to play this class without ruining everything just like it's possible to play a full caster without ruining everything. You can play a wizard without creating an infinite wish loop, and you can play a beastblood shifter without exploiting overpowered abilities. I'm not sure why you seem to be treating my class differently.

I'm not undervaluing spellcasting. I simply think this class gets a lot of spellcasting. Not sure how much, even with that Su ability list (there exist other monsters from other books), but quite possibly a lot. The difference between infinite wish loop and what I'm talking about is that the infinite wish loop was presumably unintended. This stuff I'm talking about is a completely straightforward use of the ability. I also feel like we have to be held to different standards here. The game has been out forever at this point. We know how crazy form changing can be. I have to think that, if the designers knew that you could use zodar form to get infinite free wishes that can produce items of any price for free, they would have done something to stop that. And we do know. Specifically, we know that your class can get infinite free wishes by way of zodar form, earlier than a tier one caster too. Level 15, looks like.

[Grod_The_Giant]

No, it does not make sense. It still sounds like you're just complaining about the fact that I gave martial a nice thing. In fact, the more you explain it, the more it sounds like I'm not supposed to be making martial good, that I'm not allowed to make something stronger than the canon classes. That's a notion that I just cannot agree with, and I feel like discussing this further will yield nothing for either of us.

Giving martials nice things is good game design. Giving them insanely powerful things is not, any more than it was good game design to give them to casters. I'm complaining that you did the latter-- you made a class that's stronger than the GOOD martial classes, the ones that DID give them nice things. If you really don't understand why that's a problem, why "well, it doesn't cast spells" isn't an excuse to throw on any insane power you want, then I'm not sure there's any point in offering feedback.

You made a full caster level class. It's stronger than anything out there that's not dropping 9th level spells, and quite possibly a bunch that are. Period.

Still, if that's the power level you want, you should probably address save DCs and what happens to ongoing Su abilities (like, say, Dominate Person or Create Spawn) when you change form again.

[Almarck]

If you guys are talking about the Anima Mage, that one has the problem that's kinda at the core of its design. It's made specifically to be a cheesy class because it steals power from people it encounters and meant to do a mirror match in every way possible with almost no limits.

Obviously, this makes it simultaneously broken and absurdly weak at the same time. You basically are the Ice Assassin...

I don't know if there's a real way to make it both capable of doing what it's theme is and still being balanced for party play at the same time.




In any event. I thought you guys were talking about the Hydrablood Warrior for like an hour.... Man, imagine my confusion when I thought you guys said that class was broken.

[Grod_The_Giant]

In any event. I thought you guys were talking about the Hydrablood Warrior for like an hour.... Man, imagine my confusion when I thought you guys said that class was broken.

We're talking about the Beastbound Shifter, especially it's Supernatural Shifting ability.

(Hydrablood Warrior looks like a fun T4 whose only real problem is being a hilariously good dip; Anima... Thief? looks interesting, though the fact that the ability copying is also paired with a save-or-lose/die is worrying)

[bekeleven]

Now you're just getting into the fundamental issues of the system at large, and those run so deep that there's no way for me not to run afoul of them. What do you expect me to do? Make it exactly like Wild Shape? Then why play this rather than druid? Add abilities that have little to no connection to shapeshifting? Then the class has no focus. Base wild shape already gives extraordinary abilities. The only step up from that which is still relevant to the core design is to add supernatural abilities. What other choice do I have?

Wild shape gives extraordinary special attacks by default, but not extraordinary special qualities.

In addition to Ex Sq, you've already added other items that keep the class focused, like rapid shifting, the ability to not shift worn items, ability boosts, and beneficial type checking. Some that synergize with being an animal (although not particularly with turning into humanoids/outsiders/dragons/etc), like track. And some that seem relatively on-theme, like endurance.

There are a lot of other possibilities for things you can do. I spent longer than mortal minds really ought to on this class concept, so here's a few:

• Movement speed, or movement modes
• Natural armor, damage reduction
• Increased natural attack damage, additional natural attacks, natural attack weapon enhancements
• Smaller body-modification effects, disguise bonuses
• The ability to use templates in some way

Your class is clearly better than the Master of Many Forms at changing shape, largely due to its supernatural and spell-like ability progression. I only wish it got some warshaper goodies like immunity to critical hits, nature's warrior's goodies like magical natural attacks, or plain jane druid abilities like the ability to heal or speak with animals of the same form. Speaking aesthetically, I also like classes that require some stats to function, but I know that's rather difficult with shapechanging.

I think we're destined to see flaws in the works of others. I look at yours and I see a simple design with a lot of holes, whereas I'm sure you look at mine and see an overcomplicated mess. Different strokes. The Shifter was one of my earliest homebrews, and looking at it now I see some spots I really ought to edit, but I just lack the will to decompress the entire class design and balance into my memory, rebalance it, rewrite it, reformat it, and make it all fit again.

[Celestia]

This isn't precisely martial, is the thing. You get a ton of stuff that is deeply casterly, and a lot of the power of this class is going to wind up coming from that casting capability.

Yes, I am getting into the fundamental issues of the system at large. That's my point. When you make an ability this incredibly broad, you dive deep into those fundamental issues. I don't really expect you to do anything, or care all that much about what you do with this information. I'm just pointing out that this class is likely way stronger than you think. Also, base wild shape does give extraordinary abilities, but only special attacks. If you wanted a point of differentiation, the fact that you get at-will access to those extraordinary special qualities, perhaps MoMF style later on in the class, could be it. Or, y'know, the fact that you have so many accessible forms. MoMF is worse than druid, but it's not strictly worse. There's plausible room in between this and the MoMF where differentiation from the druid exists. I mean, jeez, leaving aside anything aside from type and size, you're already getting cryohydra form at level eight. You could literally stop everything aside from HD progression at that exact point and you'd have an incredibly capable melee character.

It's not necessarily immediately crazy, no. You can do crazy stuff pretty fast though. And yes, casters do that kinda thing. It's not ideal when they do it either.

I'm not undervaluing spellcasting. I simply think this class gets a lot of spellcasting. Not sure how much, even with that Su ability list (there exist other monsters from other books), but quite possibly a lot. The difference between infinite wish loop and what I'm talking about is that the infinite wish loop was presumably unintended. This stuff I'm talking about is a completely straightforward use of the ability. I also feel like we have to be held to different standards here. The game has been out forever at this point. We know how crazy form changing can be. I have to think that, if the designers knew that you could use zodar form to get infinite free wishes that can produce items of any price for free, they would have done something to stop that. And we do know. Specifically, we know that your class can get infinite free wishes by way of zodar form, earlier than a tier one caster too. Level 15, looks like.

And the only ways to fix that are to apply sweeping cuts that destabilize the entire basis for the class or go through and apply individual rulings on every single possibility, which will take forever, be nearly incomprehensible to read through, and will certainly miss numerous things. Alternatively, you could just treat it like you do with casters and acknowledge that while there are easily accessible and exploitable problems, you're not going to use them. You know, respect for the DM and other players and all that.

It's not a matter of standards here, and pulling that card is cheap and insulting. I may know there are problems with shapeshifting, but that doesn't mean that fixing them is at all practical. But by all means, if you want to go through every book ever published and make a shapeshifting mechanic that accounts for each and every one, be my guest. I will gladly change my class to work with those fixes. Until then, don't call me out on it.

Giving martials nice things is good game design. Giving them insanely powerful things is not, any more than it was good game design to give them to casters. I'm complaining that you did the latter-- you made a class that's stronger than the GOOD martial classes, the ones that DID give them nice things. If you really don't understand why that's a problem, why "well, it doesn't cast spells" isn't an excuse to throw on any insane power you want, then I'm not sure there's any point in offering feedback.

You made a full caster level class. It's stronger than anything out there that's not dropping 9th level spells, and quite possibly a bunch that are. Period.

Still, if that's the power level you want, you should probably address save DCs and what happens to ongoing Su abilities (like, say, Dominate Person or Create Spawn) when you change form again.

Are you being serious right now? Calling it a full caster class? Saying it's more powerful than classes that get 9th level spells? Is this just misplaced hyperbole, or are you honestly trying to make that stick? Either way, I'm going to ignore it.

Wild shape gives extraordinary special attacks by default, but not extraordinary special qualities.

In addition to Ex Sq, you've already added other items that keep the class focused, like rapid shifting, the ability to not shift worn items, ability boosts, and beneficial type checking. Some that synergize with being an animal (although not particularly with turning into humanoids/outsiders/dragons/etc), like track. And some that seem relatively on-theme, like endurance.

There are a lot of other possibilities for things you can do. I spent longer than mortal minds really ought to on this class concept, so here's a few:

• Movement speed, or movement modes
• Natural armor, damage reduction
• Increased natural attack damage, additional natural attacks, natural attack weapon enhancements
• Smaller body-modification effects, disguise bonuses
• The ability to use templates in some way

Your class is clearly better than the Master of Many Forms at changing shape, largely due to its supernatural and spell-like ability progression. I only wish it got some warshaper goodies like immunity to critical hits, nature's warrior's goodies like magical natural attacks, or plain jane druid abilities like the ability to heal or speak with animals of the same form. Speaking aesthetically, I also like classes that require some stats to function, but I know that's rather difficult with shapechanging.

I think we're destined to see flaws in the works of others. I look at yours and I see a simple design with a lot of holes, whereas I'm sure you look at mine and see an overcomplicated mess. Different strokes. The Shifter was one of my earliest homebrews, and looking at it now I see some spots I really ought to edit, but I just lack the will to decompress the entire class design and balance into my memory, rebalance it, rewrite it, reformat it, and make it all fit again.

I intentionally didn't give it a bunch of various class features because I felt it has enough. Others, apparently, think it has too much. Either way, I appreciate the suggestions, but I'm definitely not adding anything to the class.

Unless you're suggesting I do that instead of giving it access to supernatural abilities. That's certainly an option, but as you said, I do prefer the simplicity. I have other classes that are complicated with a whole host of various features, but I don't want them all to be like that. Plus, I very much did almost that exact same thing already. The Warforged Warden is a shapechanging class that, instead of getting options with forms, gives you choices to fine tune one form. It does a lot of those same things you suggested.

That reminds me. I never did finish that ACF for Warforged Warden...

[eggynack]

And the only ways to fix that are to apply sweeping cuts that destabilize the entire basis for the class or go through and apply individual rulings on every single possibility, which will take forever, be nearly incomprehensible to read through, and will certainly miss numerous things. Alternatively, you could just treat it like you do with casters and acknowledge that while there are easily accessible and exploitable problems, you're not going to use them. You know, respect for the DM and other players and all that.

I mean, just pushing each major ability type advancement up a step would fix a lot of it. Leave Ex special qualities out of the basic ability, give those where you currently have supernatural, and then give supernatural where you currently have SLA's, and a lot of the currently present issues wouldn't exist. You maintain a reasonable ability progression too. And you can do a bunch of broken stuff with special qualities.

It's not a matter of standards here, and pulling that card is cheap and insulting. I may know there are problems with shapeshifting, but that doesn't mean that fixing them is at all practical. But by all means, if you want to go through every book ever published and make a shapeshifting mechanic that accounts for each and every one, be my guest. I will gladly change my class to work with those fixes. Until then, don't call me out on it.

If you wanna put out a product that's fundamentally broken in ways that neither of us truly understands to any kind of reasonable depth, I suppose that's up to you. I think I can fairly say that I put a bunch of rigor into the stuff I make. It's not like I'm demanding you remove or change stuff. I am simply pointing out a huge issue with the way the class operates. If you don't care that the way the class operates is broken, then have it keep being broken.

Are you being serious right now? Calling it a full caster class? Saying it's more powerful than classes that get 9th level spells? Is this just misplaced hyperbole, or are you honestly trying to make that stick? Either way, I'm going to ignore it.

Are you sure he's wrong? That list of Su abilities had a lot of stuff, and that list didn't cover anywhere close to everything. It's not like this class doesn't get 9th level spells, some of them earlier than full casters. And, as I pointed out before, you get the casting of a 4th level wizard at level seven, and the casting of a 9th level wizard and/or 8th level cleric, at 10th level. Or 7th level, if you take that +HD feat a few times. And then at 13th level you can become a beholder, several different kinds of beholder actually, granting access to eye rays, which means up to ten different spell effects in a single round, all as free actions such that you can then switch form as a swift action and do something else. Something like, for the sake of argument, yet more eye rays, because now you're a different type of beholder. I'd very likely take that over any full caster you can name, and that's simply combining the explicit abilities of the class with a monster from the monster manual (or two monsters, if you want to use the gauth as a second beholder thing).

[Almarck]

Are you sure he's wrong? That list of Su abilities had a lot of stuff, and that list didn't cover anywhere close to everything. It's not like this class doesn't get 9th level spells, some of them earlier than full casters. And, as I pointed out before, you get the casting of a 4th level wizard at level seven, and the casting of a 9th level wizard and/or 8th level cleric, at 10th level. Or 7th level, if you take that +HD feat a few times. And then at 13th level you can become a beholder, several different kinds of beholder actually, granting access to eye rays, which means up to ten different spell effects in a single round, all as free actions such that you can then switch form as a swift action and do something else. Something like, for the sake of argument, yet more eye rays, because now you're a different type of beholder. I'd very likely take that over any full caster you can name, and that's simply combining the explicit abilities of the class with a monster from the monster manual (or two monsters, if you want to use the gauth as a second beholder thing).

So... the problem ultimately comes down to the class allowing the player to shapeshift into a monster designed to act as a Boss encounter for a whole party by itself?

[eggynack]

So... the problem ultimately comes down to the class allowing the player to shapeshift into a monster designed to act as a Boss encounter for a whole party by itself?

That's certainly part of it. The overall problem is that there are a lot of monsters in a lot of books with a lot of different abilities. The more monsters you can become, the more likely some of those monsters are to be crazy. Beholder is very likely near the top of the curve, at least at that level (later levels provide things that are, I'd argue, even more broken than shooting off between 10 and I think 20 spells in a single round, like having that but also straight up full casting), but it's just one example. Monsters are weird. There's a straight up totally mundane animal, the dung snake, that has fast healing. Gives a druid access to that ability before plants, at 7th level (enhance wild shape) if they want it. Only has three HD, so it grants this class access to that ability starting at level three, or, if you want to invest feats (you very likely do, because I keep coming back to the use of said feats in the discussion of this class), level one. Not necessarily broken, but ain't it a bit wonky? Remove all beholders from the game entirely, and there'll be a bunch of other wacky ways to break this class in half. Because the class basically has shapechange starting at level 10, albeit somewhat type and HD limited.

[Morphic tide]

The prime answer I can think of is to tie that class to it's name more literally: Only Animals until level 10, then Magical Beasts get added to the available list, with Aberrations as a capstone and getting various types of abilities coming online at various levels. Not in the sense of ability tags like (Ex), but in the sense of stuff like Fast Healing and abilities that replicate spells of particular levels being level-locked to prevent early access of silly things. You don't want them getting 8th level spells 5 levels earlier than the casters, after all.

[Almarck]

That's certainly part of it. The overall problem is that there are a lot of monsters in a lot of books with a lot of different abilities. The more monsters you can become, the more likely some of those monsters are to be crazy. Beholder is very likely near the top of the curve, at least at that level (later levels provide things that are, I'd argue, even more broken than shooting off between 10 and I think 20 spells in a single round, like having that but also straight up full casting), but it's just one example. Monsters are weird. There's a straight up totally mundane animal, the dung snake, that has fast healing. Gives a druid access to that ability before plants, at 7th level (enhance wild shape) if they want it. Only has three HD, so it grants this class access to that ability starting at level three, or, if you want to invest feats (you very likely do, because I keep coming back to the use of said feats in the discussion of this class), level one. Not necessarily broken, but ain't it a bit wonky? Remove all beholders from the game entirely, and there'll be a bunch of other wacky ways to break this class in half. Because the class basically has shapechange starting at level 10, albeit somewhat type and HD limited.

I'm wondering then, if maybe a good way to patch this up is to instead of going through source books is to take Pathfinder's approach to the whole polymorph thing: Treat the effect as a buff that modifies the player's stats and grants benefits or changes up the gameplay.

Could even just have what are essentialy "base forms" which can then be modified by adding traits from the list, resulting in a "build it yourself" setup.

Higher levels either unlock base forms, more trait options, or slots to customize.

For instance, "generic quadruped" can be given the scent quality... or have say damage reduction or flight if you have high enough level.

[bekeleven]

Put simply, there's no clean way to make it work. Every approach will either begin with the "Wild shape" base (as this class does), or with the "Shapeshift" base, like the PHB2 druid, in which you have preset balls of stats that may or may not rely on your previous abilities. Basically, do you get better when more books are released?

Supernatural abilities are pretty beefy, and retarding their abuse was one of the primary goals in my shifter class, but like I've said in the past, they're not the most broken thing you can do once you can wild shape into other creature types. 4HD, Fey shape, and MM5 is all you need. You don't even need supernatural abilities at all. You don't even need extraordinary special qualities, for that matter.

As long as there are poorly balanced and poorly edited monster entries, wild shape-based classes will continue to be total messes. Some people, luckily, prefer it that way. At least when we're not GMing...

[Celestia]

I mean, just pushing each major ability type advancement up a step would fix a lot of it. Leave Ex special qualities out of the basic ability, give those where you currently have supernatural, and then give supernatural where you currently have SLA's, and a lot of the currently present issues wouldn't exist. You maintain a reasonable ability progression too. And you can do a bunch of broken stuff with special qualities.

If you wanna put out a product that's fundamentally broken in ways that neither of us truly understands to any kind of reasonable depth, I suppose that's up to you. I think I can fairly say that I put a bunch of rigor into the stuff I make. It's not like I'm demanding you remove or change stuff. I am simply pointing out a huge issue with the way the class operates. If you don't care that the way the class operates is broken, then have it keep being broken.

You keep acting like there is some magical way to fix this that I am simply refusing to do, but I keep telling you that's not true. It can't be fixed. Wild shape, by its very nature, is broken, and any class based on it will be broken. I can limit it as much as possible, and it'll still be broken. Why don't, or won't, you understand this? You wrote a rather extensive guide about the druid, after all.

The prime answer I can think of is to tie that class to it's name more literally: Only Animals until level 10, then Magical Beasts get added to the available list, with Aberrations as a capstone and getting various types of abilities coming online at various levels. Not in the sense of ability tags like (Ex), but in the sense of stuff like Fast Healing and abilities that replicate spells of particular levels being level-locked to prevent early access of silly things. You don't want them getting 8th level spells 5 levels earlier than the casters, after all.

So, gut the entire class, betray the very reason I made it, and keep the two creature types that are the focus of everyone's complaints? Sounds great!

I'm wondering then, if maybe a good way to patch this up is to instead of going through source books is to take Pathfinder's approach to the whole polymorph thing: Treat the effect as a buff that modifies the player's stats and grants benefits or changes up the gameplay.

Could even just have what are essentialy "base forms" which can then be modified by adding traits from the list, resulting in a "build it yourself" setup.

Higher levels either unlock base forms, more trait options, or slots to customize.

For instance, "generic quadruped" can be given the scent quality... or have say damage reduction or flight if you have high enough level.

I already made that class once. Why would I do it again?

Put simply, there's no clean way to make it work. Every approach will either begin with the "Wild shape" base (as this class does), or with the "Shapeshift" base, like the PHB2 druid, in which you have preset balls of stats that may or may not rely on your previous abilities. Basically, do you get better when more books are released?

Supernatural abilities are pretty beefy, and retarding their abuse was one of the primary goals in my shifter class, but like I've said in the past, they're not the most broken thing you can do once you can wild shape into other creature types. 4HD, Fey shape, and MM5 is all you need. You don't even need supernatural abilities at all. You don't even need extraordinary special qualities, for that matter.

As long as there are poorly balanced and poorly edited monster entries, wild shape-based classes will continue to be total messes. Some people, luckily, prefer it that way. At least when we're not GMing...

Thank you! So I'm not The only one who gets it!

[eggynack]

You keep acting like there is some magical way to fix this that I am simply refusing to do, but I keep telling you that's not true. It can't be fixed. Wild shape, by its very nature, is broken, and any class based on it will be broken. I can limit it as much as possible, and it'll still be broken. Why don't, or won't, you understand this? You wrote a rather extensive guide about the druid, after all.

I mean, I did just make a suggestion that'd solve a good percentage of the problems. Toss in a dragon wild shape style note about how you can't gain casting even through Ex special qualities and you solve one of the bigger other problems. I obviously still don't know all the possibilities within that set, because I don't know all extraordinary special qualities everywhere, but the problem space is a lot more limited. You can still attack folks from the ethereal plane, but you can't do all that other stuff I was talking about. Still probably land around tier two.

[Almarck]

Well, I'm not really fond of the Shifter, so I won't make much more comment. I kinda liked the Cliche Villian because of how ridiculous it was.

[Morphic tide]

So, gut the entire class, betray the very reason I made it, and keep the two creature types that are the focus of everyone's complaints? Sounds great!

Alternatively, just add the restrictions on abilities. Like the aforementioned spell duplicate abilities being locked to the levels casters tend to have them at.

Like, the biggest complaint is the access to stuff at low levels due to the hit dice based limit. Restrictions like not getting to use spell-equivalent abilities until your class level is past the spell level times two, having Regeneration, DR, Energy Resistance and Fast Healing capped by level and some sort of overall ability score modifier past your base ability score modifiers would make the class hard to outright shatter the game with until other characters can do it just as well, if not better.

No need to gut it, just add clear restrictions based on level. Like making the Hydras less crazy by having a limit to the number of Natural Attacks you can use in a round similar to the PF Summoner's Eidolon, with something like class level/2. Generally, restrict the common game breakers with guidelines that just keep the class to about level-appropriate power.

I mean, it works a lot better as a general guideline for Polymorph and Wildshape based abilities to keep all such abuses from shattering the game, but you can bake it into the class if you want.

[Celestia]

I mean, I did just make a suggestion that'd solve a good percentage of the problems. Toss in a dragon wild shape style note about how you can't gain casting even through Ex special qualities and you solve one of the bigger other problems. I obviously still don't know all the possibilities within that set, because I don't know all extraordinary special qualities everywhere, but the problem space is a lot more limited. You can still attack folks from the ethereal plane, but you can't do all that other stuff I was talking about. Still probably land around tier two.

I still feel like innate spellcasting being labeled as an extraordinary ability is an editing error that shouldn't be given legitimacy, but I suppose I can add in a line to clarify that the class does not get spellcasting.

Well, I'm not really fond of the Shifter, so I won't make much more comment. I kinda liked the Cliche Villian because of how ridiculous it was.

I'm glad you like it. Honestly, I'm not too pleased with how that one turned out, myself. I know it's a joke class, but I still made some silly mistakes that, in retrospect, I shouldn't have done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You keep acting like there is some magical way to fix this that I am simply refusing to do, but I keep telling you that's not true. It can't be fixed. Wild shape, by its very nature, is broken, and any class based on it will be broken. I can limit it as much as possible, and it'll still be broken. Why don't, or won't, you understand this? You wrote a rather extensive guide about the druid, after all.

Eggynack and I have both suggested easy ways to improve it: push back Ex special qualities to 10th and Su stuff to 18th, and add an bit of clarifying text about never getting spellcasting. Boom, balance significantly improved while flavor remains intact.

I also take issue with the idea that Wild Shape is inherently a broken ability. It's goofy on the Druid chassis, sure, but that's because it's paired with full casting. It's goofy on your class, but that's because you double down on the most broken bits (granting special abilities). It can be painfully clunky, but that's because it's an "anything in the book" ability. By contrast, look at my take on the idea:

• It doesn't have magic, so it doesn't result in a double-capable class like the Druid
• It doesn't grant special qualities, so you wind up as a physical-brawler-with-cool-senses-mobility-and-potential-skill-boosts-- not a very broken role, and one that works well in most parties.
• You only have a limited set of potential forms (all basic animals, plus one per level, plus two extra whenever you unlock a new type)
• It's still slightly stat-dependent, so you can't dump all your physical scores

[Celestia]

Eggynack and I have both suggested easy ways to improve it: push back Ex special qualities to 10th ...

I've seen this so called logic before, and it still makes no sense.
"This ability is fine at low levels but completely broken at mid levels. You should push it back so you don't get it until mid levels."
It literally does nothing you want it to. Why does no one get that?

... and Su stuff to 18th, ...

I really don't see why I should have to do that. You both have said repeatedly how broken this is, but you never actually provided evidence. Yeah, you showed a list of supernatural abilities, but who knows whether or not any of them can be acquired with the HD limit? I mean, for all I know, the broken ones are still level locked. It's not my job to search for the evidence for your claims.

... and add an bit of clarifying text about never getting spellcasting. Boom, balance significantly improved while flavor remains intact.

Did that, even though, again, I don't think I should have to clarify that.

I also take issue with the idea that Wild Shape is inherently a broken ability.

Oh, so it's only broken when I do it?

... It's goofy on the Druid chassis, sure, but that's because it's paired with full casting. It's goofy on your class, but that's because you double down on the most broken bits (granting special abilities). It can be painfully clunky, but that's because it's an "anything in the book" ability.

"Clunky" is a silly way to say broken.

... By contrast, look at my take on the idea:

• It doesn't have magic, so it doesn't result in a double-capable class like the Druid
• It doesn't grant special qualities, so you wind up as a physical-brawler-with-cool-senses-mobility-and-potential-skill-boosts-- not a very broken role, and one that works well in most parties.
• You only have a limited set of potential forms (all basic animals, plus one per level, plus two extra whenever you unlock a new type)
• It's still slightly stat-dependent, so you can't dump all your physical scores

I've seen your's. I wasn't going to comment on it, but if you insist, I suppose I have to. I don't like it. You go way too far in the oposite direction. You limit it so much, that your class, which is based entirely around wild shaping, is worse at wild shaping that a base druid. Sure, you get magical beasts, but without getting anything other that extraordinary attacks, what's the point? You can turn into a horse with an extra natural attack? Ooo, sign me up for that!

I think a big problem that the both of you have is that you refuse to compare this class with the druid. You see a lack of spellcasting and intrinsically rate it against martials. I see it as a druid with no spells, companion, or class features. So, I add things to make up for that. The addition of those extra abilities is to make up for two thirds of the druid. I still think it's significantly weaker, at least until level 18, but at that point, the druid has been Shapechanging for one level, anyways. The druid gets this whole class as a spell.

[eggynack]

I've seen this so called logic before, and it still makes no sense.
"This ability is fine at low levels but completely broken at mid levels. You should push it back so you don't get it until mid levels."
It literally does nothing you want it to. Why does no one get that?

It makes perfect sense. It's how balance works. You get good things late and kinda broken things so late it usually doesn't matter. The main problem with Ex special qualities is the casting thing, because of the interaction with the monstrous humanoid type. It's a singular problem that can be removed. Special qualities are really frigging powerful, but they usually don't do caster things, and when they do it's not quite so borked on a non-caster base. I have a good list of that stuff, y'know? I can tell you with reasonable certainty that animals, vermin, humanoids, and dragons have little to be all that scared of (except for the bonus feat in the case of humans specifically). Aberrations and plants have some really good stuff, but my handbook has good lists of that stuff, and I don't think it's crazy to have that on a class.

So, the only open questions are monstrous humanoids, magical beasts, and giants. I'm a bit doubtful that giants are that crazy in these terms. For the other two, I can't say for certain whether there's anything absurd lurking, but what absurdity there is will be an order of magnitude less powerful than what Su abilities would grant. Notably, the MoMF bible has good data on the Ex special qualities of monstrous humanoids and giants, so a lot of that research is done for you, meaning it's all down to the Ex special qualities of one type. Which, again, could be great. It's less risky, but still risky. If you pushed that type back, it'd avoid that risk somewhat, but that's not as critical in this situation.

I really don't see why I should have to do that. You both have said repeatedly how broken this is, but you never actually provided evidence. Yeah, you showed a list of supernatural abilities, but who knows whether or not any of them can be acquired with the HD limit? I mean, for all I know, the broken ones are still level locked. It's not my job to search for the evidence for your claims.

I mean, I did explicitly note the ability to cast like 20 spells in a turn by level 12, and to cast wish by something like 15, and a bunch of other arbitrary things. My overall point has always been, however, that it's incredibly difficult, nearly impossible, to tell exactly how powerful this is. I did all this stuff for druid specific stuff, which means a lot of specific types and ability types (by way of calling as well as form altering), but this is harder, cause there's more stuff.

Did that, even though, again, I don't think I should have to clarify that.

It's necessary by way of a strict textual reading. Or a rather loose textual reading. It's only unnecessary if you assume the rules in all games follow your particular RAI.

Oh, so it's only broken when I do it?

Yes, because you added a whole ability type as well as a creature type that I don't think can even be acquired pre-epic except through shapechange level stuff. You've generated a form a wild shape that is, again, an order of magnitude better than any existing form.

"Clunky" is a silly way to say broken.

I think he's positing an either/or situation. You can make wild shape clunky, with a mass of specific rules, or you can do as pathfinder did and nerf what you get to oblivion, or you have a broken ability.

I think a big problem that the both of you have is that you refuse to compare this class with the druid. You see a lack of spellcasting and intrinsically rate it against martials. I see it as a druid with no spells, companion, or class features. So, I add things to make up for that. The addition of those extra abilities is to make up for two thirds of the druid. I still think it's significantly weaker, at least until level 18, but at that point, the druid has been Shapechanging for one level, anyways. The druid gets this whole class as a spell.

I'm not rating this against martials. I'm telling you that this is doing caster things. I mentioned a bunch one that likely makes you better than a druid from that point forward, and, again, this is straightforward core stuff. Yes, the druid gets this class as a spell. But that spell is insanely broken, and you're essentially offering it at level ten. I wouldn't want a class that read, "You get free use of shapechange from 10th level on," either. And the 18th level version is obviously better than shapechange, to the point that you actually are essentially getting full casting here, off of roughly every list.

[Almarck]

Moving asside from the whole shapechange topic, since I don't think you're interested in defending your design choices: @Celestia are you open to requests or ideas for new things to homebrew?

[Celestia]

Moving asside from the whole shapechange topic, since I don't think you're interested in defending your design choices: @Celestia are you open to requests or ideas for new things to homebrew?

Absolutely. I can't guarantee that I'll take do every request, but I'll certainly take them.

[nonsi]

It's powerful. Okay? Not every martial class has to be as weak as the fighter. I see so many people complaining about martisl/caster disparity. I make a class that attempts to close that gap, and people complain. I'm starting to think people on the Internet just like complaining.

Now, if you have legitimate concerns about the class, that's one thing. This thread shows that I have a history of listening to such comments. However, if your problem is just that the class is too strong, then I certainly won't do anything.

While you undeniably possess a prolific mind and are a great source to draw ideas from, you also have a tendency toward unwarranted stubbornness. Also, the disparity of power between your suggested classes is quite radical... to a point where it doesn't ameliorate that problem with the official classes in the slightest.
Grod is one of the better game masters around here, if not the best of them. When he says that something's broken, you better listen well, and think long and hard before handwaving his analysis. He doesn't spread the "broken" label lightly.

[Celestia]

While you undeniably possess a prolific mind and are a great source to draw ideas from, you also have a tendency toward unwarranted stubbornness. Also, the disparity of power between your suggested classes is quite radical... to a point where it doesn't ameliorate that problem with the official classes in the slightest.
Grod is one of the better game masters around here, if not the best of them. When he says that something's broken, you better listen well, and think long and hard before handwaving his analysis. He doesn't spread the "broken" label lightly.

You talk as if he's a flawless paragon who's word should be taken as law. His name is completely irrelevant to his argument.

[nonsi]

You talk as if he's a flawless paragon who's word should be taken as law.

No I'm not.
We don't share many overlapping game-design agenda points, but I don't remember him ever putting up red warning signs that were disputed with compelling claims, or ones that I didn't agree with.

It's your project and you're free to do with any and all PEACHing as you see fit. I just found it fitting to share my standpoint. Feel no obligation to adopt it. Just don't fall off your chair if you choose to use that class as is only to find that the other players are not enjoying themselves as much you'd expected.

[Almarck]

Absolutely. I can't guarantee that I'll take do every request, but I'll certainly take them.

So I had this idea consuming my attention for a while but long story short I want to ask.


can you make a class whose entire purpose is to cook magical meals in much the same way the point of the bard is to make magical performances? Atleast with a sort of complexity involving different types of food options.

I had this idea for a class that mixed ad matched cooking ingredients, but I wonder if maybe you'd be better suited to it than me.

[Celestia]

So I had this idea consuming my attention for a while but long story short I want to ask.


can you make a class whose entire purpose is to cook magical meals in much the same way the point of the bard is to make magical performances? Atleast with a sort of complexity involving different types of food options.

I had this idea for a class that mixed ad matched cooking ingredients, but I wonder if maybe you'd be better suited to it than me.

I don't know how well a class based around that would work. I feel like it would just be a refluffed version of articifer infusions.

[Almarck]

I don't know how well a class based around that would work. I feel like it would just be a refluffed version of articifer infusions.

The idea I had was that it'd be around combining effects and ingredients to create either buffs or give spells or supernatural power.



but it's probably too complex all told for something simple, I guess I retract it.