The Stick's worst blunder: vote now!

[Snails]

The word of Hinjo and Miko would probably be sufficient evidence to the Guard that Shojo broke his oath. Given that the Order is available to both corroborate their testimony and shine some light on Shojo's methods and purpose, I doubt the Shojo would try to directly contradict Hinjo and Miko.

Shojo is a ruthless politician, but he is acting with a rational plan for sensible enough greater good purposes. He is at the end game of his life and retiring from leadership of the Guard is not a big blow. If that is the cost of getting some additional resources working on this Gate threat, Shojo would have no regrets about it.

[Snails]

The fall of Azure City is caused by the inability of the nobles to work together beyond their own interests. Could a Shojo with more foresight have reduced the power of the nobles to low enough levels that the system as a whole was improved? Possibly, though it is important to remember that Shojo has a loyal army of paladins and still nearly got assassinated. That he was crafty enough to last as long as he did is an achievement in itself. Ultimately, he chose to work within the limitations of his political situation rather than risk everything by challenging it. Had he died a few years later of natural causes it is probable that Hinjo would inherit an extremely tricky political situation, but as a trained paladin he would be far more protected against assassination than Shojo.

Hmmm....I suppose if the nobles throw in their full resources to plug the gap in the wall in defense of the city, they could fend off Redcloak and his army for at least a few hours (or more), leaving Xykon alone when he is ambushed by an army of paladin ghosts.

It so happens that Soon's ambush is incredibly lethal to a lich fighting solo. A little more teamwork between the Guard and the Order and the nobles could have fended off Xykon. However, it is unclear if it ultimately matters because they need to the phylactery to prevent Xykon from trying again.

[Keltest]

Hmmm....I suppose if the nobles throw in their full resources to plug the gap in the wall in defense of the city, they could fend off Redcloak and his army for at least a few hours (or more), leaving Xykon alone when he is ambushed by an army of paladin ghosts.

It so happens that Soon's ambush is incredibly lethal to a lich fighting solo. A little more teamwork between the Guard and the Order and the nobles could have fended off Xykon. However, it is unclear if it ultimately matters because they need to the phylactery to prevent Xykon from trying again.

Redcloak had it on his person, so dealing with that would be more of a matter of time than ability.

[Snails]

Redcloak had it on his person, so dealing with that would be more of a matter of time than ability.

It depends how relentless RC proves to be in attempting to take the city, once Xykon is offed. If he sees this as a great opportunity for greater goblinhood (fairly likely), then he lingers around to lead the army and can be snuffed by the Order.

[Spellbreaker26]

What really makes the throne room situation confusing is Miko's very variable power level. With her first fight against the order she has a huge advantage in terms of environment, but in her second she still somehow wins despite them holding all the cards. Then in her solo fight with Belkar he has the opportunity to kill her (when he knocks her unconscious with a leadsheet) so she's clearly not invincible.* Then she fights Roy and Hinjo consecutively and fails. I'm of the opinion that if Roy challenged her with no intervention from outside parties he stood a good chance of victory.


*Belkar not killing Miko and then just skipping town also gets on my list of blunders, purely for what matters to himself. It also might have accidentally saved the world, however, so there's that.

[Jasdoif]

What really makes the throne room situation confusing is Miko's very variable power level. With her first fight against the order she has a huge advantage in terms of environment, but in her second she still somehow wins despite them holding all the cards. Then in her solo fight with Belkar he has the opportunity to kill her (when he knocks her unconscious with a leadsheet) so she's clearly not invincible.* Then she fights Roy and Hinjo consecutively and fails.

Spoiler: War and XPs Commentary

Show

The draining of the blue when Miko fell wasn't only a cosmetic effect: The Sapphire Guard uses magic items that only function for paladins in good standing. Miko lost the use of several magic items as well as her paladin class abilities when she fell, she was quite a bit less powerful at that point.

Belkar, in general, tends to be absurdly effective in melee combat.

[Snails]

I'm of the opinion that if Roy challenged her with no intervention from outside parties he stood a good chance of victory.

It seems like a fair fight to me. Roy could not handle her when sporting a non-masterwork piece of lumber as a great club. With his fullsome Greenhilt sword, I think he would likely prevail, even though she probably has a couple of levels on him. Unless she is going to charge Roy with a lance from horseback, Paladin abilities are of no value against Roy.

[Kish]

Also, Belkar didn't try to go toe-to-toe with her until she was already almost out of hit points. She let herself be manipulated into fighting alone on Belkar's terms; he had ranged attacks and the ability to rig traps for her, she had no ranged attacks and no particular ability to find the traps he rigged. If she'd realized a hundred rounds in, "This is ridiculous, I'm getting some more paladins," Belkar would have been easily defeated, but she had faith that her "destiny" meant she would never fail--a lot like she did later when she killed Shojo, actually.

[Snails]

Belkar, in general, tends to be absurdly effective in melee combat.

I interpret it as Belkar "mysteriously" always having the biggest possible Favored Enemy bonus against everything important for him to win against (he cheats, IMO), though there is no doubt in my mind that the usual big annoying people who tossed him in jail in the past put Humans as the top of his list (even if he cheats when it comes to other enemies), so this is unimportant when it comes to Miko. Miko has an unimpressive Wis for someone with Monk levels, and Belkar does not have trouble Bluffing her to manipulate her to fight on his terms.

[Keltest]

I interpret it as Belkar "mysteriously" always having the biggest possible Favored Enemy bonus against everything important for him to win against (he cheats, IMO), though there is no doubt in my mind that the usual big annoying people who tossed him in jail in the past put Humans as the top of his list (even if he cheats when it comes to other enemies), so this is unimportant when it comes to Miko. Miko has an unimpressive Wis for someone with Monk levels, and Belkar does not have trouble Bluffing her to manipulate her to fight on his terms.

Bluff nothing, Miko just wants to pick that particular fight. Belkar doesn't need to do anything to get her to go after him. And heck, Belkar couldn't keep it up indefinitely, she did manage to pin him down, albeit after he KOed her first.

[Peelee]

I interpret it as Belkar "mysteriously" always having the biggest possible Favored Enemy bonus against everything important for him to win against (he cheats, IMO)

Wait, let me make sure I understand this right. You're saying he's like Red Mage from 8-Bit Theater?

[Lord Torath]

Not hiring the two guys Durkon found while Roy hired Hailey, V, Belkar, and Elan.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Belkar, in general, tends to be absurdly effective in melee combat.

Against other melee combatants, yes.

Against spellcasters -- well, witness him being an absurdly easy victim of paralyzation and/or domination. If Belkar had to get a personal "worst blunder" award, it would probably be charging at Malack in Girard's pyramid.

Even enemy ranged attackers can just barrage Belkar with impunity, considering his only known weapons are daggers (or short-ranged thrown improvised weapons).

[Kurald Galain]

The word of Hinjo and Miko would probably be sufficient evidence to the Guard that Shojo broke his oath.

...why would they?

The Guard is lawful. That means they'll want evidence. Aside from that, it is a plot point that nobody likes Miko, so they're not about to take her word for it that somebody is evil (she says stuff like that all the time, anyway).

With her first fight against the order she has a huge advantage in terms of environment, but in her second she still somehow wins despite them holding all the cards.

The Giant made a forum post describing how this fight would go. In brief, the OOTS is far from "holding all the cards": Roy doesn't have his sword, Haley doesn't have a melee weapon, Elan picks some idiotic strategy that doesn't work, Belkar gets stunned since we know how bad his saving throws are, and V has poor hit points. In addition, Miko has the surprise, and an ally in the form of Windstriker. Yes, it is plausible for her to win this.

[Bedinsis]

Hindsight being 20/20 it is easy to pick out something that went badly but seemed like a reasonable course of action at the time.

With this in mind, I nominate setting the bandits' tent on fire. It was acknowledged as stupid even by other characters and Belkar did it either way. The only way to justify it would be in the meta sense that he knew that it was a side-quest, and it would be an anti-climax to let a major character die in those, but from that perspective I question why he would scold Roy for not getting a back-up weapon, if he figured he was safe either way.

Other than that? V not relinquishing the soul splice when requested by Inkyrius. I have no problem accepting that the soul splice was the honestly best technical option to save V's family(too many moving parts in the alternative plan), if V went about a time wasting way to defeat ABD it is unfortunate but understandable(she had like one shot at this awesome power? Better make the most of it), the familycide.... was doubtlessly evil, but if we're looking at it from a practical perspective, she had already had her family threatened once, it could be argued that this was the most viable way to eliminate further vengeful dragons. Keeping the power in hold once the danger was over? That's just more time for the Evil fiends to control your body for nefarious purposes.

Roy jumping aboard Xykon's dragon during the Azure city battle is also a major blunder. He would need to land some time either way; why battle him in an unsafe environment? That's just reckless hero complex.

[hroþila]

...why would they?

The Guard is lawful. That means they'll want evidence. Aside from that, it is a plot point that nobody likes Miko, so they're not about to take her word for it that somebody is evil (she says stuff like that all the time, anyway).

Miko is insane, but not a liar. If Hinjo backs her up, the rest of the Guard is going to accept she's telling the truth (as opposed to "her truth").

And again, they can summon Tony.

[Keltest]

Miko is insane, but not a liar. If Hinjo backs her up, the rest of the Guard is going to accept she's telling the truth (as opposed to "her truth").

And again, they can summon Tony.

Wouldn't that require A: knowing that it was specifically Tony who was intercepted and B: Tony knowing where he was bound and for what purpose before he was intercepted?

[hroþila]

Wouldn't that require A: knowing that it was specifically Tony who was intercepted and B: Tony knowing where he was bound and for what purpose before he was intercepted?

I don't think so. Any of the celestials they summon to pass judgment should be able to tell them the truth, and that's assuming it's not Tony's job and they'll get a different one if they try to summon him. They had a being of pure Law and Good render judgment, and they have reason to suspect the trial was rigged despite that fact (since they heard Shojo talk about how he lied so that he could hire the Order to breach his oath, which suggests the whole trial was a farce). They'd likely want to know why or how that being of pure Law and Good went with it, or whether he was somehow manipulated.

[Kish]

There's also something off about claiming that the Sapphire Guard being Lawful means they'll need evidence (for some unspecified reason, beyond what they can get from spells) and in the same breath that they'll disregard a witness's accurate report of events because they don't like her.

[Goblin_Priest]

Hindsight being 20/20 it is easy to pick out something that went badly but seemed like a reasonable course of action at the time.

With this in mind, I nominate setting the bandits' tent on fire. It was acknowledged as stupid even by other characters and Belkar did it either way. The only way to justify it would be in the meta sense that he knew that it was a side-quest, and it would be an anti-climax to let a major character die in those, but from that perspective I question why he would scold Roy for not getting a back-up weapon, if he figured he was safe either way.

Other than that? V not relinquishing the soul splice when requested by Inkyrius. I have no problem accepting that the soul splice was the honestly best technical option to save V's family(too many moving parts in the alternative plan), if V went about a time wasting way to defeat ABD it is unfortunate but understandable(she had like one shot at this awesome power? Better make the most of it), the familycide.... was doubtlessly evil, but if we're looking at it from a practical perspective, she had already had her family threatened once, it could be argued that this was the most viable way to eliminate further vengeful dragons. Keeping the power in hold once the danger was over? That's just more time for the Evil fiends to control your body for nefarious purposes.

Roy jumping aboard Xykon's dragon during the Azure city battle is also a major blunder. He would need to land some time either way; why battle him in an unsafe environment? That's just reckless hero complex.

Yea, I gotta say. My full-plated goblin barbarian could have told him, from his experiences of jumping on an aboleth to better kill it as it attacked a boat, that jumping onto creatures in hazardous environments isn't a great idea.

[Peelee]

I don't think so. Any of the celestials they summon to pass judgment should be able to tell them the truth, and that's assuming it's not Tony's job and they'll get a different one if they try to summon him. They had a being of pure Law and Good render judgment, and they have reason to suspect the trial was rigged despite that fact (since they heard Shojo talk about how he lied so that he could hire the Order to breach his oath, which suggests the whole trial was a farce). They'd likely want to know why or how that being of pure Law and Good went with it, or whether he was somehow manipulated.

What do you think the penalty for rigging a non-legal, non-binding trial in Azure City is?

[Snails]

Lawful does not necessarily mean adhering to ponderous legal procedures. It can also mean being a relentless stickler for honor, in both letter and spirit.

Shojo's gambit is brilliant up until the point where members of the Guard have a logical reason to wonder whether the head of their order might have lied to them. Being paladins, it is not a question they are likely to ask on their own initiative. But once credible testimony brings the issue up for examination, Shojo cannot hide the truth.

[Snails]

Roy jumping aboard Xykon's dragon during the Azure city battle is also a major blunder. He would need to land some time either way; why battle him in an unsafe environment? That's just reckless hero complex.

Sure, it was unwise. But to be fair to Roy, it was not yet clear to anyone in the Order that Xykon could not be beaten that way. In fact, there was not a shred of direct evidence within the entire web comic that Xykon was better than 14th level, at that point in history.

Until Xykon uncorked the Meteor Swarm, wasn't the highest level spell we had seen Xykon cast to date Forecage? Really, even the Meteor Swarms did not tell us all that much. It was only the battle against Darth V that we saw Xykon had multiple epic level spells at his disposal.

Even a 20th level lich can be killed by 4 lucky hits from a double digit level Fighter with an excellent sword like the Greenhilt blade. If Roy somehow succeeded, that would have saved the whole city from ruin, even if it meant falling to his death.

Yes, it was unwise. But he was doing something unwise that, in his eyes, would save the defending army from being pummeled by a few dozen Fireballs.

[Kurald Galain]

Lawful does not necessarily mean adhering to ponderous legal procedures. It can also mean being a relentless stickler for honor, in both letter and spirit.

Precisely. Honor also includes not overthrowing your long-lasting ruler and head of state just because a known lunatic and the guy who will inherit the position allege something.

O-Chul! Lien! You've got to help me! Shojo has betrayed us and has never spoken the truth and was manipulated into doing this by the evil order of that murderous halfing who are in league with the lich and now they're going to kill every noble and take over the city!
: Wait, what?
: Take over the city? The guy has been in charge for decades.
: There's a lich now?
: And how can he have been manipulated by those adventurers that showed up last week?
We've got to get the Guard together and depose him! He's gotten rid of all the early warning beacons and I'm the only one who has seen the lich and it's going to invade the city now! And we need to kill those evil adventurers!
: If you're the only one who knows about this lich, we should start mobilizing against the lich instead of speaking ill about your liege.
: Wait, I know how to solve this. *Uses detect evil, Shojo pings as 'still not evil'* Well, that settles that. SAAAAY Miko, I hear there's an important missive that needs to be sent to Westeros, how about you go and do that instead?
*facepalm*

[hroþila]

What do you think the penalty for rigging a non-legal, non-binding trial in Azure City is?

What makes you think the trial was non-legal and non-binding? Just because it was done by the Sapphire Guard instead of Azure City? What makes you think the Sapphire Guard (which feels entitled to execute people after a trial) wouldn't be able to impose any penalties whatsoever on its commander-in-chief? And what makes you think that Hinjo has such a poor grasp of Azurite law that he would repeatedly comment on Shojo being put on trial (talking to Shojo, to Miko and with Belkar when trying to resurrect Shojo) if that was not a distinct possibility and he believed it'd be a farce?

[King of Nowhere]

miko's advantage against the order was that nobody in the order could reliably hurt her. her saving throws - plus evasion - were high enough that she could wheater V and durkon's spells with impunity, her AC was high enough that haley could rarely hit her, belkar never got a good chance to attack her, and elan has no particular offensive capabilities. Even roy missed most times, and he was the one dealing the most damage. When roy got his sowrd back, that was a +7 to hit (+5 for enhancement bonus and +2 for (greater) weapon focus), so now roy was consistently hitting twice per round instead of once per round. Plus higher damage and higher critical. and a warrior of roy's level will easily deal around 30 damages per hit with a good weapon. All things considered, roy's damage output against miko roughly tripled from 20 to 60 hp per round, so now he was able to solo miko.

[ti'esar]

Precisely. Honor also includes not overthrowing your long-lasting ruler and head of state just because a known lunatic and the guy who will inherit the position allege something.

While (as we saw) this may have held weight with the nobles and everyday citizens, I somehow doubt Hinjo's peers in the Sapphire Guard had such a low opinion of him as to believe he'd invent spurious legal charges against his uncle.

[Kurald Galain]

While (as we saw) this may have held weight with the nobles and everyday citizens, I somehow doubt Hinjo's peers in the Sapphire Guard had such a low opinion of him as to believe he'd invent spurious legal charges against his uncle.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they'll overthrow their ruler for him without a shred of evidence.

[hroþila]

Sure, but that doesn't mean they'll overthrow their ruler for him without a shred of evidence.

You keep saying that, but witness testimony *is* evidence.

[Kurald Galain]

You keep saying that, but witness testimony *is* evidence.

Sure, but the testimony is not "we witnessed Shojo rigging the trial" but "while walking towards a room several panels away, we may have vaguely overheard Shojo saying something to that foreigner that sounded bad. But it may have been sarcasm, us paladins are notoriously bad at detecing that. Not sure. Can you arrest him now?"

The only thing they're sure of is that Shojo is smarter than he looks. That's not illegal in the slightest.

I'm sure they can sow some distrust. About a ruler that's already routinely targeted by assassins, wow yeah, that's going to accomplish much.