Girl Genius XXI: Cancel the Jugglers

[HandofShadows]

Zola is very much a narcissist. Everything is about HER. Even Gil noticed this back when he was in Paris. (Wonder how long before he shows up to the party?) Zola is VERY lucky Grandma stopped her. If the MoP didn't kill her, Tarvek certainly would. And in the very slight chance he didn't, Gil would. Hell, Tarvek is *already* probably planning how to kill Zola. (I know I would be.)

Is that one of Tweedle's wolves howling at the top right?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Did she have some sort of plan, or is she just stupid?

I'm not saying that I'm right, or even that I believe this, but it might be that Zola, when things are going badly, defaults to playing the incompetent role she used so effectively on Gil. She has a knack for using people that think she is not a threat to her advantage. Letting Grandma take her obvious gun would be step one. (Although we do know she is quite easy to disarm even when she does not want to).

OK, so the costume is looted, but why is Agatha sparkling?

She's a spark. She took a couple of minutes to invent LEDs on the way to the party

GW

[The Glyphstone]

Slightly modified Pikachu outfit. Pikachu never showed that much skin.

I don't remember Pikachu ever wearing clothes. So technically he showed nothing but skin.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Assuming that she doesn't know Tarvek's present, there's still Violetta and Zeetha.

Wooster's about somewhere, and he saw her before she went into the castle. Boris probably saw her afterwards, but given the injuries may not recognize her.

Higgs and Gil are both inbound and not exactly happy happy joy joy, also.

You start to understand why I think Zola won't survive this arc?

[eschmenk]

Grandma probably won't be entirely happy to see Gil if he arrives. She wants one of her grandsons to win, not Gil. She won't want to make a scene, though. Perhaps she'll try to pair Gil up with Zola?

MoP still doesn't like a Heterodyne in his city, but he's got to realize that either Agatha's playing 11D chess with him, or she didn't know Beausoliel was a traitor. And that dour expression may be because she mentioned Beausoliel, not so much because he's angry with Agatha.

I think the dour expression was largely for the sake of a pun on "getting to" the MoP. The second meaning is to make someone upset; Beausoliel had the MoP pretty much in a rage.

[multilis]

Grandma probably won't be entirely happy to see Gil if he arrives. She wants one of her grandsons to win, not Gil. She won't want to make a scene, though. Perhaps she'll try to pair Gil up with Zola?



I think the dour expression was largely for the sake of a pun on "getting to" the MoP. The second meaning is to make someone upset; Beausoliel had the MoP pretty much in a rage.

And yet Grandma was going to have Gil as Storm king before they returned, and trying to form marriage alliance with Selfie. I suspect she would think of many different combos as a win, and Selfie is obviously in love with Gil and Gil+Selfie would still make it her bloodline won, her great grandchild was still the heir to the throne.

[Divayth Fyr]

And yet Grandma was going to have Gil as Storm king before they returned, and trying to form marriage alliance with Selfie. I suspect she would think of many different combos as a win, and Selfie is obviously in love with Gil and Gil+Selfie would still make it her bloodline won, her great grandchild was still the heir to the throne.

On the other hand, the Gil option was used when both Martellus and Tarvek were considered to be "lost" inside of Mechanicsburg, with nobody knowing when - or if - they'll return. So it was going for the best with what little was to work with.

Having either of her grandsons as the Storm King is preferable, since that way the royal family will bear the name of one of her families, and not that of Wulfenbach.

[multilis]

On the other hand, the Gil option was used when both Martellus and Tarvek were considered to be "lost" inside of Mechanicsburg, with nobody knowing when - or if - they'll return. So it was going for the best with what little was to work with.

Having either of her grandsons as the Storm King is preferable, since that way the royal family will bear the name of one of her families, and not that of Wulfenbach.

Since it is grandma rather than grandpa, won't be her name anyway. I think she is being a diplomat, if Martellus or Tarvek come back they won't blame her if she says "if they come back", but she plays to win no matter which of 3 become storm king. Martellus and Tarvek are easier, with Gil she still needs extra that Selfie gets Gil.

Grandma hates the Other, if Zola kills Agatha, then someone else will kill Zola and Grandma may need either Agatha (anti wasp) or Zola (undermine chain of command with a fake) to stop the Other. I assume Zola is big wild card for Grandma, she needs more info to decide whether a useful tool or a problem to eliminate or both.

Grandma has some extra inside info we don't, eg her reaction to "old storm king is coming"...

[stsasser]

I'm not saying that I'm right, or even that I believe this, but it might be that Zola, when things are going badly, defaults to playing the incompetent role she used so effectively on Gil. She has a knack for using people that think she is not a threat to her advantage. Letting Grandma take her obvious gun would be step one. (Although we do know she is quite easy to disarm even when she does not want to).



She's a spark. She took a couple of minutes to invent LEDs on the way to the party

GW

Sparky SFX...

[slayerx]

On the other hand, the Gil option was used when both Martellus and Tarvek were considered to be "lost" inside of Mechanicsburg, with nobody knowing when - or if - they'll return. So it was going for the best with what little was to work with.

Having either of her grandsons as the Storm King is preferable, since that way the royal family will bear the name of one of her families, and not that of Wulfenbach.

From what we can gather, it does not sounds like Grandma has canceled the wedding plans. When talking to selfie, she warned her that Agatha might not be happy when she finds out what's been going on between her and gil; this implies that even with Martellus back, marrying Selfie to Gil was still going forward. Working through Gil actually makes a lot of sense since he already has a great deal of power over europa. The empire may be fractured but it would be a great deal easier reuniting continent by piggy backing off the Wulfenbach empire than trying to make their own country. Trying to make their own country would mean not only united the nobles and establishing their power, but also possibly going to war with Gil over control. Gil and Selfie's child would not only have a claim to the throne, by would also inherit a great deal more power than either Martellus or Tarvek; its a lot less messy

Also i doubt the family name would matter. The name of the original storm king was Valois. After 200 years of marriages and hiding in secret it seems the original royal name has been lost. But Names are not what matters; only the bloodlines. As long as the grandchild shares your bloodline your family's power will be secured. That's why political marriages have the influence that they do. Heck we don't even know if Von Blitzengard is even her last name; it depends on whether Martellus is related to her through his father or his mother (tarvek is related to her through his mother so we can be fairly certain its not Sturmvoraus)


Though granted, i do wonder exactly where Grandma is going with all this. It could be that she would allow Martellus to stake his claim to the throne, but name selfie and Gil's child as his heir rather than having an heir of his own... or after selfie's child is born, Martellus could just suffer from an unfortunate accident. Either way, the idea could be to allow Martellus to promote the return of the storm king to get the nobles behind the idea, while Gil and Selphie secure the empire for their child to eventually rule when they take the title.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Tweedle also has to be descended from a female, else Tarvek wouldn't have the stronger claim. In fact, Tarvek's stronger claim means his mother was the elder sister.

Royal/aristocratic genealogy is not a subject to approach lightly if you have a firm belief in the equal rights of the sexes.

[factotum]

Tweedle also has to be descended from a female, else Tarvek wouldn't have the stronger claim.

Surely if Tweedle were descended on the male line but is younger than Tarvek he would have a weaker claim also?

[AMX]

Surely if Tweedle were descended on the male line but is younger than Tarvek he would have a weaker claim also?

We don't know exactly how succession works in GG Europa, but that's fairly unlikely.

Real-life orders of succession are a bit of a mess...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_succession

...but generally, in this general time period, in that general area, you can expect a male line to have a stronger claim than any mixed or female line.

[Shining Wrath]

The status of the mother can also matter; if either marriage was considered morgantic that would take all the offspring of that marriage out of the line of succession, and it has been a matter of considerable mootation from time to time which marriages fell into that category.

[eschmenk]

Tweedle also has to be descended from a female, else Tarvek wouldn't have the stronger claim. In fact, Tarvek's stronger claim means his mother was the elder sister.

No, it probably just means that the majority of the 50 families preferred Tarvek over Tweedle, possibly just because they thought Tarvek would be easier for them to control.

[Grim Portent]

Lucrezia did say that she put considerable effort into making sure there would be a proper Storm King heir because all the descendants in her day were not even close to suitable. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarvek is the closest in line, the result of tweaked genetics to make him a strong spark and supported by the Order because he was made for the purpose.

Also, wasn't Tarvek's father leader of the Order of Jove? That would indicate he was high in the line of royal succession, if not at the top.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Except the claim comes through Tarvek's mother, not Aaronev.

Honestly? I'm hoping all of this ends with a Storm Queen on the throne.

[slayerx]

Surely if Tweedle were descended on the male line but is younger than Tarvek he would have a weaker claim also?

No. What matters is how old their parent's were, not how old they are. If Martellus's parent was first in line, and Tarvek's mother was second, then the rules would favor Martellus. Succession typically favors the older sibling AND their children first, and then goes to the younger sibling and their children.

It also really depends on what rules they follow. If the succession rules does not play favorites between boys and girls, then succession would go to the oldest child first and their children. But if the rules favor boys, then succession would favor the boys first and their children, even if the mother were older... hence how Martellus could indeed have a stronger claim if his storm king blood came from his father

Frankly i might imagine that they DO favor boys over girls in their rules. Afterall their entire legacy is based on the Storm king, not the storm queen. Much of the preparations for the return revolved around grooming the perfect male heir. So if tarvek did have a stronger claim, then i would say tweedle was indeed related through his mother aswell and that she was the younger sibling.

Not to mention that we have violetta who is never mentioned anywhere when it comes to succession and was even given a body guard spot as a smoke knight. Tarvek's mother probably had other siblings that are even lower on the succession line. Tarvek's got enough cousins to keep the family going, and thus Violetta was basically shoved aside to keep things a bit simplier. Though it could be that one of her parents was low born and thus disqualified her(nobility tends to also be a factor).

No, it probably just means that the majority of the 50 families preferred Tarvek over Tweedle, possibly just because they thought Tarvek would be easier for them to control.

This could also be true. In addition to the messy rules of succession, things can always get messier through bigger army diplomacy. If you got a strong claim to the throne and a bigger army to back that claim, then you can pretty much force your way to the top. So Tarvek could have a weaker claim, but could have had more support from the nobles; though that might have been shaken after the fall of his father and his capture by wulfenbach. This is why Gil and Selphie's child would end up having the strongest claim to the throne; even if Tarvek and Martellus have a stronger claims by the rights of succession, Selphie's child would have both a strong claim AND the mightiest army in Europa to back that claim.

Also, wasn't Tarvek's father leader of the Order of Jove? That would indicate he was high in the line of royal succession, if not at the top.

No. He was the leader of the knight's of Jove, but he was not in the line of succession. The order served the storm king, but was not necessarily headed by the family itself. Tarvek's storm king blood comes from his mother; his father married into the family. And typically the spouse of a royal family member does not get a place in the line of succession. He gets to wear the title of Prince, but he can never claim the title of King. Those from his wife's family would all have a much stronger claim

[Grim Portent]

Oh yes, I'd forgotten it was Tarvek's mother he got his claim from. I really should go back and read that chunk of the story again.

Do we know which parent Tweedle's claim comes from, I don't remember it ever being addressed in comic? If it's also from his mother then I'd be inclined to wonder if there even is a direct male line of succession anymore, or possibly if there are even any, non-insane and non-inbred, men left in the family who didn't marry into it.

[slayerx]

Oh yes, I'd forgotten it was Tarvek's mother he got his claim from. I really should go back and read that chunk of the story again.

Do we know which parent Tweedle's claim comes from, I don't remember it ever being addressed in comic? If it's also from his mother then I'd be inclined to wonder if there even is a direct male line of succession anymore, or possibly if there are even any, non-insane and non-inbred, men left in the family who didn't marry into it.

We don't know which parent Tweedle gets his claim from... hence the speculation. Though there is likely no direct male line as a direct male line would likely still carry the name Valois and they would have the strongest claim. Frankly it seems like Valois name itself died out through the various marriages. Heck who knows, Maybe grandma was the last person to carry the name Valois. She had no brothers and thus the name was lost when she married. Thus we got Von Blitzengard and Sturmvous

[eschmenk]

Lucrezia did say that she put considerable effort into making sure there would be a proper Storm King heir because all the descendants in her day were not even close to suitable.

I remember Zola saying that about the Mongfish family. When did Lucrezia say that about herself?

Also note that Gil said, "...long line of sots, imbeciles and--God forbid--females..." and Zola added, "at least one reported werewolf." Based on that, the problems were not merely limited to Lucrezia's time. To me, that means that any lineage could be rejected on the whims of the Fifty Families. There isn't any point in trying to apply some sort of standard rules of succession to that situation. It's whatever the Fifty Families decided. Zola didn't pretend that it was anything more than them choosing whoever would give them their power back. The best evidence in the comic indicates that Tarvek was chosen merely because he seemed to be the descendant mostly likely to benefit the Fifty Families.

We don't know which parent Tweedle gets his claim from... hence the speculation.

...speculation that seems to ignore what was in GG, IMO.

[slayerx]

I remember Zola saying that about the Mongfish family. When did Lucrezia say that about herself?

Also note that Gil said, "...long line of sots, imbeciles and--God forbid--females..." and Zola added, "at least one reported werewolf." Based on that, the problems were not merely limited to Lucrezia's time. To me, that means that any lineage could be rejected on the whims of the Fifty Families. There isn't any point in trying to apply some sort of standard rules of succession to that situation. It's whatever the Fifty Families decided. Zola didn't pretend that it was anything more than them choosing whoever would give them their power back. The best evidence in the comic indicates that Tarvek was chosen merely because he seemed to be the descendant mostly likely to benefit the Fifty Families.


...speculation that seems to ignore what was in GG, IMO.

Thinking about it, I don't really think the fifty families were a factor in choosing the storm king heir. The Storm king conspiracy was a secret; the only ones who knew it would be those who were actually part of the knight's of Jove(which may include some of the fifty families) and the storm king family itself. Trying to keep the fifty families in the loop would have meant risking exposing the conspiracy to those that would want to crush it; the fewer people that know, the better. The order was likely the ones picking who would be the best to become the next king and they just expected the fifty families to jump on board when they put their plan into motion.

[eschmenk]

Thinking about it, I don't really think the fifty families were a factor in choosing the storm king heir. The Storm king conspiracy was a secret; the only ones who knew it would be those who were actually part of the knight's of Jove(which may include some of the fifty families) and the storm king family itself. Trying to keep the fifty families in the loop would have meant risking exposing the conspiracy to those that would want to crush it; the fewer people that know, the better. The order was likely the ones picking who would be the best to become the next king and they just expected the fifty families to jump on board when they put their plan into motion.

I wouldn't say that they weren't a factor, but I also wouldn't say that there was a formal vote with each family getting a say. Zola said, "... will recognize." Grandma apparently unilaterally decided that no one would be chosen after Tarvek and Tweedle. Tarvek didn't consider his replacement to be a done deal. It could be that a pro-Tweedle faction chose to poison Tarvek to force Tweedle to be chosen instead while at the same time a pro-Tarvek faction sent orders to Violetta to rescue him. Who knows? We don't know how the decisions were made; it easily could have been a messy affair.

I also am assuming that there is a lot of overlap between the KoJ and Fifty Families and the High Council, but I don't really know.

[slayerx]

I wouldn't say that they weren't a factor, but I also wouldn't say that there was a formal vote with each family getting a say. Zola said, "... will recognize." Grandma apparently unilaterally decided that no one would be chosen after Tarvek and Tweedle. Tarvek didn't consider his replacement to be a done deal. It could be that a pro-Tweedle faction chose to poison Tarvek to force Tweedle to be chosen instead while at the same time a pro-Tarvek faction sent orders to Violetta to rescue him. Who knows? We don't know how the decisions were made; it easily could have been a messy affair.

I also am assuming that there is a lot of overlap between the KoJ and Fifty Families and the High Council, but I don't really know.

I read zola's comment to be more the knight's expectations of what would happen, not what they knew for a fact would happen as part of their plan. They would restore the glory of the storm king and they expected that the fifty families would recognize his rule, especially if it gave them a way to get out from under Wulfenbach.

From what i gather, the knight's of jove was run by a council probably made up of prominent family members, knights, and sparks(both Zola and Sephie mentioned them). They seemed to be the ones making many of the big decisions on the plans. However, the knights and the family has all sorts of power hungry backstabbers and thus their were plenty of subfactions. I'd say the three major groups would be a faction backing Tarvek, another backing Tweedle, and then the third faction are those that changed their loyalty to Lucrezia. Though that's kinda moot now as the council was killed by Gil during the timeskip. That probably ended up leaving grandma was the only prominent leader left which is why she was able to put her foot down and unilaterally decide stop anyone else from making a claim.

[runeghost]

For her age, she is very quick. Grandma must be enjoying this, but the party is about to reach a critical mass.

Between breaking the gun and having the Master lean on her (without it being noticeable to onlookers), I'm starting to think Grandma is far, far tougher/stronger than she appears.

[SZbNAhL]

Though that's kinda moot now as the council was killed by Gil during the timeskip.

Wait, Gil killed them? When Seffie said they were dead I assumed she meant in the chaos and infighting that occurred after Tarvek and Martellus vanushed .

Between breaking the gun and having the Master lean on her (without it being noticeable to onlookers), I'm starting to think Grandma is far, far tougher/stronger than she appears.

Let's not forget stabbing Mr Obsidian hard enough to break the knife.

[geoduck]

Wait, Gil killed them? When Seffie said they were dead I assumed she meant in the chaos and infighting that occurred after Tarvek and Martellus vanushed .

The blonde Smoke Knight who stabs Tweedle in the thumb says that Gil has been ruthlessly hunting them (ie Smoke Knights) but yeah, it's never been said that Gil killed the Council.

[SZbNAhL]

The blonde Smoke Knight who stabs Tweedle in the thumb says that Gil has been ruthlessly hunting them (ie Smoke Knights) but yeah, it's never been said that Gil killed the Council.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. Then again, Klaus always seemed to be keen on taking his enemies alive, and I doubt the knights were "kill yourself to prevent capture" types.

[Wayson]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that. Then again, Klaus always seemed to be keen on taking his enemies alive

Not always.

[Wayson]

New update.

Aaaand there goes my hope that the Master can talk Andy down.