Vampire The Masquerade - Bloodlines 2 Announced

[heronbpv]

So, after some form of ARG, Paradox has officially announced in a stream today that it's going to produce the continuation of one of my all-time favorite RPG's for PC! Game comes 2020 and will be available for PS4, XboxOne and PCs (all stores, thankfully, and a big F you Epic for good measure).

Official site: https://www.bloodlines2.com/
Official trailer (no gameplay): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYvWfDxhm_s
Reveal stream (with dev interviews): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgyq5yYIpsM
Steam page: https://store.steampowered.com/app/5..._Bloodlines_2/

Any thoughts on the announcement? Any wishes?

Is it time to install the original again, as is the tradition after someone mentions the game? Unofficial Patch 10.3 is already available, including some really good quality of life changes to the game (as in, bypasses to the sewers and the final tower, for those not so inclined to heavy combat), and some new areas restored from the original.

All in all, a happy time to be the a World of Darkness fan! :D

[Bastian Weaver]

That is so awesome.

[Eldan]

Neat. Is paradox only going to publish it, or also produce it? Because I don't think Paradox have done any RPGS before? Tyranny they published, but it was made by Obsidian, as an example.

[Cozzer]

I loved the first game, and that's without being a fan of vampires, horror or gothic atmospheres in general (in fact, they usually turn me off). If they replicate its good points, this can be great!

[Sian]

Neat. Is paradox only going to publish it, or also produce it? Because I don't think Paradox have done any RPGS before? Tyranny they published, but it was made by Obsidian, as an example.

The Ancestor company which Paradox grew out of (Target Games), was primarily producing boardgames and tabletop Pen&Paper.

That said, it's going to be produced by Hardsuit Labs (Fromer Zombie Studios, behind Spec Ops and Blacklight), which have Brian Mitsoda (original lead writer) on staff being Lead Designer on Bloodlines2, with Chris Avellone (Lead designer and writer of Planescape Torment) also having announced that he's on the team in some (not more specifically known) capacity ... story goes that they started crafting a pitch for the game just about the day Paradox announced that they had bought White Wolf, and managed to make such a good pitch that they overtook Paradox' initial plans of making it in-house when they'd found a way to do it with proper respect towards the original.

Also, given Paradox's MO, they've likely been sitting on the announcement for quite a while till they were certain that it was far enough in the process that it wouldn't be cancelled, and the game have, at the very least been in work for over an year given that Paradox bought 1/3 of Hardsuit Labs in January '18

[Brookshw]

, with Chris Avellone

You have my attention.

[Anonymouswizard]

Unfortunately it's probably going to be based on V5, which is a deal-breaker for me.

Otherwise, time to reinstall the original and see how far I can get this time.

[heronbpv]

Yes, it's based on V5 (the newest version of the game system). What exactly it does that turns you off, @Anonymouswizard? And do share your playthrough with us, always a pleasure!

Also, I believe it was said in the stream that the original design/writer(?) team was on this one as well, so I have high hopes for it (and if Battletech is any indication, Paradox does not seem to screw their game studios as much as other publishers). The fact that it's only a year away is just icing on the cake for me.

[Sian]

The fact that it's only a year away is just icing on the cake for me.

As said, Paradox have been burned a few times on announcing games before they could tie down a release date, either leaving them massively delayed (Hearts of Iron IV) or outright canceled (Runemaster), so they have a strong policy (which they've surely imposed on Hardsuit Labs given that they own the license and bought a third of the studeo), about not announcing games before they're playable, and long enough that, if they felt like it, could get away with having it in closed beta or the like ...

[Aotrs Commander]

I'll just be over here sulking in the corner because Paradox are release a big RPG about undead and - once again - I can't play a Lich.



All this fuss everywhere about representation and all that, but I never get MY turn, do I?

[Bobbyjackcorn]

Really excited to see what comes of this, especially with Chris Avellone getting his hands on it too. However, I'm a little suspicious of the release date being less than a year away considering they don't have any gameplay in the trailer. Hoping for the best, but something smells a bit like fish, y'feel me?

[Sian]

Really excited to see what comes of this, especially with Chris Avellone getting his hands on it too. However, I'm a little suspicious of the release date being less than a year away considering they don't have any gameplay in the trailer. Hoping for the best, but something smells a bit like fish, y'feel me?

Apparently they had a 30 minute demo that Journalists could get their hands on (from what I've read, it plays somewhat similar to Dishonored 2)... and Paradox have made it a rule that they won't announce games before they're almost in the beta phase

[heronbpv]

I'll just be over here sulking in the corner because Paradox are release a big RPG about undead and - once again - I can't play a Lich.



All this fuss everywhere about representation and all that, but I never get MY turn, do I?

Await for the eventual mods, there's no shortage of necromantic-like clans in Vampire. Also, maybe playing as a Tzimisce and associate mastering the Vicissitude to a journey to lichdom? It's a flesh & bones controlling discipline after all, so I bet you could remove the flesh from yourself to emulate that skeleton appearance.

BTW, I forgot to add to the original post, but one of the paradox guys said during the interviews that the game will have mod support (possibly steam workshop, although this is speculation on my part) from the get go, akin to XCOM2. And if the community can get it's hands on the mod tools earlier, like Pavonis had with XCOM2, we ca hope for day 1 mods with some good quality. Looking at how the people behind the unofficial patches still work on the more than 15 years after the release of the original Bloodlines, I'm hopeful for a thriving modding community to game.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes, it's based on V5 (the newest version of the game system). What exactly it does that turns you off, @Anonymouswizard? And do share your playthrough with us, always a pleasure!

Short answer is that V5 is trying to do Requiem, but is just plain worse. I mean, almost everything that I see V5 bending the setting over backwards to achieve Requiem dies naturally. If you want Requiem so badly then guess what, Requiem exists! 2e even has pretty good rules in the tabletop version! V5 just no longer feels like Masquerade with all the wild setting changes.

And will do! Will probably have to uninstall Deus Ex to make room for it, but I'm going to be generating my character by taking the little quiz and rolling dice to answer the questions.

[Narkis]

This is the announcement I've been waiting for ever since Paradox bought White Wolf. Given the timeline, they probably started working on it right away and just didn't announce it until now. I really hope it's a worthy successor.

I'll just be over here sulking in the corner because Paradox are release a big RPG about undead and - once again - I can't play a Lich.

Man, I feel you. So many RPGs and the one were I enjoyed playing a Necromancer the most was Diablo 2, almost twenty years ago.

[Sian]

This is the announcement I've been waiting for ever since Paradox bought White Wolf. Given the timeline, they probably started working on it right away and just didn't announce it until now.

Not quite ... Hardsuit Labs started creating a pitch as soon as Paradox bought White Wolf, and managed to get it in their hands (and wow them enough) before Paradox had gotten around figuring out quite what to do with Bloodlines, which paid sufficient respect to the original ... which they've repeatedly said they considered the crown jewel of White Wolf ... remember, with Paradox's past as a subsidiary of Target Games which had an history of making board games and P&P, a fair share of the reason for buying White Wolf was to give it a good home at someone willing to use it actively, more than having any concrete ideas that needed a setting

[heronbpv]

Short answer is that V5 is trying to do Requiem, but is just plain worse. I mean, almost everything that I see V5 bending the setting over backwards to achieve Requiem dies naturally. If you want Requiem so badly then guess what, Requiem exists! 2e even has pretty good rules in the tabletop version! V5 just no longer feels like Masquerade with all the wild setting changes.

And will do! Will probably have to uninstall Deus Ex to make room for it, but I'm going to be generating my character by taking the little quiz and rolling dice to answer the questions.

I see. When my brother, who plays the tabletop, started talking about v5 and v20, I didn't understood at first. "Wait, isn't the scenario already over? With gehenna and all?". Took a while to understand, and I can definitely see why some people would be turned off by it. In my mind, a revised version of the first three editions, with updated rules and ambiance spanning what was shown amongst the three would be a better alternative. I also never understood the 4th edition (Requiem, right?). Was it a post-gehenna scenario, or it's own, alternate thing?

[Muz]

WOOT!

I'm especially stoked that it's set in Seattle! Vampires in my home town!

That also means no one will make me go back into the frelling Ocean House Hotel.

[Sian]

WOOT!

I'm especially stoked that it's set in Seattle! Vampires in my home town!

That also means no one will make me go back into the frelling Ocean House Hotel.

But you'll probably have to spelunk in the half-buried half-burned remains of the "Great Seattle Fire"

[The Jack]

Yes, it's based on V5 (the newest version of the game system). What exactly it does that turns you off, .

It fundamentally doesn't work as vampire the Masquerade.

The writing is hamfisted social justice VS evil, rather than a smart satire. The Jyhad's been simplified for dummies, and there's a lot less to learn from that. They've put a lot of effort into empowering the weak, crippling the strong and making an even playing field... which isn't what vampire's about. It's about the struggle, the uphill battle, and they're getting rid of that. It's an easy horizontal fight and it stifles creativity.

The beckoning, and the idea that 'these wars near syria' matter in the grand vampiric scheme of things, whilst other wars don't matter, is utterly asinine. How self important do you have to be to delude yourself into thinking you're being deep and making statements here?

The disciplines are more 'gamey' at the expense of world building. It's four hundred times harder to maintain the masquerade with obfuscate, dominate and auspex so weakened, whilst the changes made to celerity, potence and fortitude are unintuitive arbitrary powers rather than a more natural and simple procession.


There's only a quasi masquerade, since contrived changes have made the goverments aware of vampires, but they're operating secretly because... we need the game to be called masquerade.




Oh, and there's what they did to the tremere.
It's like they don't understand the metaphysics of magic, what issues a sociology of an asexual society of corpses would take seriously, or how rebellions could possibly happen. Now, You could say it's a Tremere conspiracy to weed out traitors, but they really shouldn't be doing that in a time where their magical monopoly is so contested by assamites and more.


I've got a thousand more complaints: The morality system is more arbitrarily defined than it's ever been. Character creation is a nightmare. The hunger system, combined with weakened disciplines and similar mechanics make being a vampire sound like it's so bad they all aught to kill themselves en mass. The books a mess, The clan art is atrocious. The writing is childish. The rules for guns are laughable. I really don't think the writers 'get it'


Good things I liked about V5's book
-You are what you eat's what I've always been doing. I don't do it as crudely, but it's a sign someone's been thinking.
-Graffiti tags was smart. The stress on fuedalism near the end of the book was nice, though very contrary to everything else in the book.
-the one pic with a werewolf is really, really nice.

[The Jack]

{Scrubbed}

[Anonymouswizard]

I see. When my brother, who plays the tabletop, started talking about v5 and v20, I didn't understood at first. "Wait, isn't the scenario already over? With gehenna and all?". Took a while to understand, and I can definitely see why some people would be turned off by it. In my mind, a revised version of the first three editions, with updated rules and ambiance spanning what was shown amongst the three would be a better alternative. I also never understood the 4th edition (Requiem, right?). Was it a post-gehenna scenario, or it's own, alternate thing?

Requiem is interesting. You have to realise that it's not a new edition, but a new game that borrows a lot. All the mythology of Masquerade has been replaced by new, intentionally inconsistent mythology, the Chans have been streamlined into five archetypes (roughly Tempters, Beasts, Shadows, Outcasts, and Lords), the sects have been replaced by 5+2 Covenants, and there's much less world shaking events (the Covenants themselves are relatively decentralised). Most of what's carried over are the personal horror themes, especially in 2e.

I've had a lot of fun working out how to deal with London in the setting. The current result is the Night Cabinet, ten Vampires who serve as an advisor to the First Minister (read: Prince). I'd actually love to see a Requiem computer game, I'd just rather it wasn't pretending it was Masquerade (okay, that's a bit unfair, as has been pointed out the writing in V5 is laughable, while Requiem 2e has fairly decent writing).

[Sian]

Rik Schaffer have announced that he's also going to be the main composer for Bloodlines2, and have worked on the OST for the last year or so and expects that it's going to be ready for release 'round November

[Morty]

I know very little about V5, so at least I can anticipate the game free of baggage. My main hope is that they improve on the mechanics, particularly the very janky combat, without making the game too action-oriented. A fine line to tread.

[Otomodachi]

I know very little about V5, so at least I can anticipate the game free of baggage. My main hope is that they improve on the mechanics, particularly the very janky combat, without making the game too action-oriented. A fine line to tread.

Did you enjoy the basic melee and archery of Skyrim? That seems like the standard I'd expect a game to shoot for in terms of a first-person RPG these days. Maybe I'm wrong, just a guess, different developers of course.

[Sian]

Did you enjoy the basic melee and archery of Skyrim? That seems like the standard I'd expect a game to shoot for in terms of a first-person RPG these days. Maybe I'm wrong, just a guess, different developers of course.

I don't know about Skyrim (havn't really played it) but I get a Dishonored combat wibe

Also, doing the Streamed interview Mitsoda mentioned that the Dialoge options would be more complex than Bloodlines ...

Sure It's different developers, but between Mitsoda, Avellone and Schaffer i see no reason why to be pissimistic about if they can pull off the aesthetics and balance of not being to actiony ... even if you'd might argue if they pull the right thing off with it's cross-pollination with V5 (haven't seen or played it, so i have no opinion on that)

[Morty]

I do hope they can do better than Skyrim combat, yes. I'm not familiar with Dishonored, though.

[The Jack]

I just hope they make more disciplines passive, or more easy to use.


In the tabletop game most disciplines don't need to be activated or all you need to do is want to use them, you don't need to spend blood.
Nosferatu can easily creep around the streets with obfuscate 2 and they can appear as other (normal looking) people with obfuscate 3. They don't need to lock big parts of the game off...

The closer they get to the table top disciplines (1st/2nd/revised/20th) the better. Disciplines don't need to all be about combat. Dominate 2-4 are really, really good social items, but you're only going to use 1 in active combat.

[Rynjin]

I do hope they can do better than Skyrim combat, yes. I'm not familiar with Dishonored, though.

Probably a perfect fit for this style of game. Dishonored is a stealth/assassination game first and foremost.

For direct melee combat, you really only have a dodge, strike, and a block/parry mechanic. Flailing your melee basically guarantees enemies will kill your ass dead, while timing strikes for when the enemy is overextended, or better yet parrying and counterattacking (an instant kill) is the way to go.

Meanwhile a variety of gadgets and special powers spice things up, letting you teleport behind enemies, hit them with crossbow bolts, possess weak-willed guards and use them to kill their unsuspecting allies, and similar tricks are available. These will be more your bread and butter than direct combat.

With skill you can do some rdiculous stuff, but in general you don't want to be directly engaging enemies, and instead want to pick them off one by one or set up the battlefield for maximum carnage you can trigger to go off all at once.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

I've had a lot of fun working out how to deal with London in the setting. The current result is the Night Cabinet, ten Vampires who serve as an advisor to the First Minister (read: Prince). I'd actually love to see a Requiem computer game, I'd just rather it wasn't pretending it was Masquerade (okay, that's a bit unfair, as has been pointed out the writing in V5 is laughable, while Requiem 2e has fairly decent writing).

Missed opportunity to not straight up call it the Shadow Cabinet.