Erfworld 68 - Page 62

[Tekraen]

Is anyone else waiting for the point where Jillian and the Archons find the "A" stack and rush in, only to run out of move one hex before they can initiate combat?

I know I am.

[sihnfahl]

Is anyone else waiting for the point where Jillian and the Archons find the "A" stack and rush in, only to run out of move one hex before they can initiate combat? I know I am.

Or, far more interesting, Jillian, her Gwyphons and the Archons find the dwagons... only to find out that they weren't so low on health as Ansom had thought.
'Uh... Jillian's captured. Again. And we lost Charlie.'

[ag30476]

I made an account just to respond to this.

We just learned that Parson can veil units, and the 'mancer that does the veiling is part of the maphacking, erfworld-wide communications-and-scouting network. Logically speaking it seems possible that the veiling could be done at a distance, and possibly off turn.

Since it JUST GOT INTRODUCED, and Jillian is now hunting dwagons (probably the wounded ones, yeah), Parson is either going to be going "Why did you not tell me this in time to use it?!" or "It's a good thing you told me this in time to use it", depending on if the veil can be used both over a long distance and on an opponent's turn (if I remember, most 'mancers do seem to be functional when off turn, however).

Yeah so let's cut to the chase already. As it is going now we need the following before we get to the chase:

1) Wanda's reaction
2) (Possibly) Webinar's reaction
3) Exposition by Wanda on what veiling is
4) (Possibly) Stanley restates his desire to capture Ansom
5) (Possibly) Parson makes his case that it would be better to do something else
6) Stanley, Wanda's and Parson's reaction to Jillian's move

Then we get the chase. But the above is not plot or character development it's just reaction shots and exposition. Yes I like the drawing of Erf but let's get a move on.

And that is that. Fancier explanations seem unnecessary. If "The Hunt" were attacking the ring of dragons instead of finding the wounded ones, it would 1) not be called "the hunt", and 2) be done without Jilian, or at least without great focus on Jilian- it'd be more of a proactive version of the "Stand", and not really even worth its own option.

I agree it's unlikely that "The Hunt" means attacking the ring. But attacking the ring is similar to having moved into the side pincer instead of the middle. It's a trade of pieces if you will. The gumps and elves get croaked in return for a few dwagons dead. In this way, it's similar to option 1 as presented by Vinny. That is, give up the forest units and take out a few dwagons but, most importantly, try to save the seige.

Option 2, "The Stand" is essentially giving up the siege to protect the forest units. It also costs Parson no more dwagon units. In this respect it seems worse than option 1, which would, hopefully from Ansom's point of view, cost Parson if he chose to attack the forst units 1 or 2 dwagons.

But "The Hunt" is just a teaser. How will it actually work? We don't know how Jillian can find the wounded dwagons or if she can find them.

That's why I say the tension is not building up, at least not for me. We have yet another cliff-hanger while no real new information is provided. And we have the possibility that the next page or pages will be about reaction and exposition.

[DavidByron]

Ok *we* know it's "just" 43 dwagons and parson knows it's "just" 43 dwagons but from Ansom's point of view why on earth would he think it was "just" 43 dwagons?

This looks a lot like a well laid trap that has been planed out. It isn't of course. It was put together very hurriedly in seconds. Parson could have waited a turn and done the same stuff but added a few squads of spidews waiting in the wings. Why doesn't Ansom fear this is the case? sure as hell looks like a well laid trap to me. Why assume the only forces he will be facing next turn are the "bait"? if I was him I'd assume there were spidews over them thar hills. Anyone want to bet spidews are forest capable troops?

The reason Parson couldn't wait a turn are (1) because Stanley was about to disband him which in turn was because he nearly booped up the eyemancer-trio, and (2) because all Ansom's flyers had been sent to the extreme end of the column out of range to help rescue Jillian last turn.

Recall that the forces for this trap were thrown together using stuff Parson happened to have handy because he had them there from last turn's (failed) Ansom trap where Ansom was supposed to go and rescue Jillian. The 46 (now 43) dwagons may not be all Stanley has. They were all that happened to be positioned away from GK already.

So sure, go for plan 3 -- it won't prevent you executing plan 1 too -- but if you have the ability to run away you better take it (from what we know Vinny's plan 1 ought to be either 0% or 100% likely to work, and Ansom ought to know which).

But "plan" 3 means he gets to run to Jillian's rescue instead of vice-versa.

Is everything Ansom does Jillian-orientated?

[Querzis]

I think we have to assume that the 25:1 is at least more or less a ratio of quality, not just quantity. The dwagons, powerful as they are, would fall fast enough in combat with entire stacks (rather than using warlords to selectively engage only a few units at a time).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html

They outnumbers Stanley 25 to one but Ansom say right after that

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html

That they have four time the forces they need to take the city. In terms of quality its just 4vs1 really and the dragons are Stanley greatest remaining threat so the dragons are the reasons why its 4vs1 in term of quality even though its 25vs1 in term of numbers.

[DavidByron]

You'd need more than 1:1 to take even a normal city let alone GK. Let's say you'd need 6:1 to take GK. Then Wanda and Ansom agree.

[OnDroid]

Hmm this might be the time for that "subtle controll" over Jillian to step in. If Ansom wants her to find the wounded dragons I think that Wanda could make her think : "And we also checked that lake hex" and to move on.

Plot-wise the loss of 19 dwagons and 3 warlords would end with Parson disbanded unless the rest of the dragons kill/capture Ansom, get the Arkenpliers attuned to someone in GK creating some sort of miracle that would change the odds.

Can't wait for another update!

[SteveMB]

Ok *we* know it's "just" 43 dwagons and parson knows it's "just" 43 dwagons but from Ansom's point of view why on earth would he think it was "just" 43 dwagons?

This looks a lot like a well laid trap that has been planed out. It isn't of course. It was put together very hurriedly in seconds. Parson could have waited a turn and done the same stuff but added a few squads of spidews waiting in the wings. Why doesn't Ansom fear this is the case? sure as hell looks like a well laid trap to me. Why assume the only forces he will be facing next turn are the "bait"? if I was him I'd assume there were spidews over them thar hills. Anyone want to bet spidews are forest capable troops?

Even now, Ansom can't bring himself to believe that Stanley could have pulled off something this clever. (True, but not relevant.) Until he gets past that (most likely, by finding out or guessing that Stanley has gotten himself a good chief warlord, thus rendering his personal contempt for Stanley moot), his ability to estimate what the enemy has up his sleeve will be compromised.

(Admittedly, in this case that leads him to the correct conclusion for the wrong reasons, since Parson has not in fact had time to bring in supporting ground units.)

The reason Parson couldn't wait a turn are (1) because Stanley was about to disband him which in turn was because he nearly booped up the eyemancer-trio

I don't think Stanley knows about that (if he did, I suspect that he would have been too furious to be distracted by Wanda's attentions, however "relaxing" they might be ). If Parson has (as it appears so far) lucked out and had "no effect" on the Trimancer, Stanley will probably never find out.

(2) because all Ansom's flyers had been sent to the extreme end of the column out of range to help rescue Jillian last turn.

That's the key fact as far as Parson knows.

Recall that the forces for this trap were thrown together using stuff Parson happened to have handy because he had them there from last turn's (failed) Ansom trap where Ansom was supposed to go and rescue Jillian. The 46 (now 43) dwagons may not be all Stanley has. They were all that happened to be positioned away from GK already.

Perhaps; we don't know either way.

But "plan" 3 means he gets to run to Jillian's rescue instead of vice-versa.

Is everything Ansom does Jillian-orientated?

That's part of it. I think that another part of it, given how seriously Ansom takes the prerogatives of nobility, is that he just doesn't think it's proper for a royal to have to be rescued by a common (as far as he knows) mercenary.

[ag30476]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0020.html

They outnumbers Stanley 25 to one but Ansom say right after that

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html

That they have four time the forces they need to take the city. In terms of quality its just 4vs1 really and the dragons are Stanley greatest remaining threat so the dragons are the reasons why its 4vs1 in term of quality even though its 25vs1 in term of numbers.

"four time the forces they need to take the city" does not mean the coalitions forces are four times as strong as Stanley's forces. Stanley is defending the seige. Normally attackers in a seige need more forces defending the seige. So the coalition will likely have more than 4 time the force that Stanley has in overall strength. We just don't know what that force ratio, the ratio needed to take the city, is in this case.

[TiamatRoar]

Gobwin Knob is the most heavily fortified defensive position in the known world. Ergo, it's logical to conclude that four times the forces needed to take such a defensive position means around six times the QUALITY (as most cities it's generally acknowledged you need at least a 3 to 1 quality ratio in contemporary warfare, and those cities aren't as heavily fortified as Gobwin Knob), ergo 25 times the overall QUALITY (not quantity).

Thus, we can deduce from Ansom's and Wanda's statements that Ansom's forces are thus logically 25 times as STRONG as Stanley's OVERALL, not just in terms of numbers.

There's a reason why Ansom said he'd rather fight Stanley's forces on the road instead of in the city, after all.

[teratorn]

That's part of it. I think that another part of it, given how seriously Ansom takes the prerogatives of nobility, is that he just doesn't think it's proper for a royal to have to be rescued by a common (as far as he knows) mercenary.

I'm not sure. I think the "To our rescue" is more about the irony of the thing. He went from going to rescue Jillian to being rescued by Jillian. He's too proud for his own good but I don't think this is a commoner thing (he loves her after all).

By the way, that second panel is worth the wait and this sort of second clifhanger.

[TiamatRoar]

Well, I think at any rate we can conclude that for a large amount of possible reasons, Ansom doesn't like the idea of being rescued by Jillian.


Oh yea, I never gave my reaction to this page. Well, it didn't have that much plot development that this overanalytical forum didn't already guess at, but it was way more than worth it just for the stunt bike joke with a ton of bats stuffing themselves into the dwagons' mouths and faces. Hilarious.

[galdon]

i dont think vinny is going to get croaked.. he seems like the kind of character who still has things to do as far as plot is concerned. it seems as though he is on ansom's side due to reason other than is own oppinions, otherwise he wouldnt be so inquisitive on ansem's motives. he's loyal but far from blind to ansem's motives. considering he is undead technically, he might join stanly after this, or he might simply survive to give his advice to the next of parson's foes.

at any rate, the hunt /cant/ be to get the wounded dragons, because that simply wont help ansem at all. each person's bonus adds to each unit, since +2 is pretty low, i can guess they all have a minimum of +4, jillian is a commander, and i bet each of the archons are, so thats +16 to all units right there. they are only bringing in a few gwiffons with them, so if thier presence with the main group is an even match, without them, ansom would get overwhelmed. three leaders get killed, they lose the arkenpliers, and the coalition leader being one of the three, suddenly, the coalition would fall apart. for just a /chance/ to take out the A dwagons, its probrably the worst plan i've heard of.

the best idea for 'the hunt' would be to say to jillian 'you take the left side i'll take the right' and knock out some stacks of dwagons before they group up, so he'd pretend he didnt need her to come to his rescue.

[TiamatRoar]

It's even odds after those A dwagons fully heal up at the start of Stanley's turn. The odds are in Ansom's favor if those A dwagons get croaked before they can do that.

[israfel420]

Ok I think I'll throw in my 2 cents.

First of all, option one was the way to go since they wouldn't lose siege Ansom/Vinnie, or the Arkenpliers, instead losing only forest units and Tarfu. Besides, those gumps+Tarfu should be able to take out several Dwagons on their own, thus making themselves a target not really worth hitting.

Option 2 was complete crap since the siege is left vulnerable and all that.

Option 3 is an unknown, but lets assume it's one of 3 things.

First thing it could be is that Jillian+Archons hunt for the wounded Dwagon stack and either attack themselves, or have Ansom and Vinnie+bats join them to take it out. This would have been a lot better plan if they had used Dora and Webinar each on a single Gwiffon to greatly expand their scouting range. However, this is still a shaky option at best since it leaves the siege vulnerable and all the important coalition units(read "able to handle Dwagons) out of position for the next turn and probably heavily wounded. This of course assumes they can even find the wounded stack in the first place, which if they don't they just put themselves and the siege in a vulnerable position that Parson can pick off whichever units he chooses. This is quite frankly a bad idea.

The second thing the hunt could be would be a cleansing of the fort formation of Dwagons and then a consolidation move to discourage the A group of Dwagons from attacking them. This option would work as far as maximising bonuses against the smaller stacks of B Dwagons, thus causing much damage with minimum damage taken in return. This option is at least guaranteed to hurt Stanley's air force greatly, but again leaves the siege vulnerable to the A stack meaning that GK could then resist the coming siege with greater ease. Again, not a good option IMO.

The third possible meaning of "The Hunt" would be some sort of Fool's Mate maneuvor where Jillian hits GK and possible kills Stanley/Wanda and takes the Arkenhammer. This would end the fight early and disperse the Dwagons since the Arkenhammer controls them. This is very risky however since Ansom has no idea exactly what Jillian would face in GK. Additionally, this would end the story arc 25+ strips prematurely, so I highly doubt it is something like this.

Ok that is my take on the current situation, but now I have 2 things I'd like to get off my chest.

First of all, why didn't Parson simply move all the Dwagons he had, wounded and otherwise, into the single hex over the lake? If he had done that, there is absolutely no way Ansom could have even touched them(assuming he could find them. I mean, the defenders would have 46+ Dwagons and 3 warlords over a lake hex that only Jillian, 5 Gwiffons, the archons, Ansom on carpet, and Vinnie+bats could reach. I don't care how powerful the Archons are or how good Ansom's stack bonus is, there is no way they could take out such a force, or even get through the B Dwagons excess hits in time to start actually killing Dwagons. This shows me that Parson is capable of making mistakes.

The other thing I wonder is this, since Parson comes from Earth where wars are realtime, and since his stats don't appear to be viewable by the natives, what would happen if Parson just waded right into the coalition forces in the middle of the night and started snacking on Gwiffons and eating Marbits? I mean could they even fight back? The rules say no, and besides, Parson is huge compared to most of these cutesy boop people.

I vote Parson saves the day as the unstoppable "one crazy potato man army".

[enfolder]

1) Wanda implied that veiling units is an unlikely move on Stanley's part. "Perhaps," she said, "he would rather believe that we have veiled our wounded units than that we bested him tactically." Given how absurd Ansom thinks the prospect of his being beaten tactically is, it sounds as though the possibility that the wounded units were veiled was very remote. It may be that veiling requires some large sacrifice on Stanley's part (such as breaking up his eyemancer link-up), or that veiling is a very weak option against Ansom -- perhaps only very weak units (like bats) and lookamancers are fooled by it. Either way, I'd be surprised if veiling came up immediately.

2) It seems that options 3) "The Hunt" and 1) "The Flight" are mutually exclusive. If they are, this implies that Ansom's plan is to somehow use the Archons and Zamussels to find the dwagons, and then join the attack himself. Otherwise, why not hunt down the wounded dwagons AND blast back to the column?

3) If this is true, then Ansom's only path to survival that also saves the siege is to destroy the wounded dwagons. Destroy only the warlords, and Ansom may save the siege (since the dwagons lose their precision strike ability), but he would still have to face around 40 full strength dwagons -- a "fair fight" at best, and one that Stanley will relish.

4) We know that the dwagons over the lake are only a few hexes away. Assuming that the archons discover them, then I see 2 trump cards Parson could play, both of which have already been mentioned on these boards:

a) Zamussel's uncertain loyalty may protect the dwagons from discovery or cause her to defend them rather than attack them.

b) Parson may have scattered many of the 'A' dwagons throughout the sides of the defensive ring, knowing that Ansom would either attack the weak back hex or the stronger front hex. If so, then there will be many, fresh B dwagons over the lake.

Either way his assault on the lake will kill fewer dwagons than he had planned, and he will lose either his siege or the Arkenpliers.

[darkgolem]

Something I wanted to note.

First, since my point is based upon some presumptions, I wanted to point those presumptions out, so that they can be weighed by themselves.

Presumptions:

• A defending stack, if it includes a warlord can choose to initiate combat when a enemy unit approaches, or not, if the enemy unit is not aware of the defending stack's presence.
  
  This presumption is probably accurate, because Ansom thought the center hex had cloaked units. This leads me to infer that Ansom thought that dragons led by warlords were there, cloaked, who were choosing not to attack the scouting bat. This is shown here in panel 9.
  
  This also implies that warlords could possibly be in the sides of platter, dropped off while the wounded dragons continue to the lake, and these warlords are simply choosing not to attack.
  
  
• The most important units in this present situation are the seige weapons, because if the forces seiging Gobwin Knob cannot attack the walls, they have to attack the tunnels, which will even out the battle.
  
  I make this presumption because of this page, Panel 10. The tunnels being important is shown here, though this presumption is more of a stretch.

The reason these two presumptions are relevant are as follows:

I wish to point out that the most important units are not the wounded dragons, but the warlords. If the warlords are killed, then Parson cannot have the dragons attack the seige units selectively and withdraw back to Gobwin Knob on their next turn. There are enough dragons in the "platter" to destroy the remaining seige. So the only truly important bit of information is where the warlords are.

If the warlords are destroyed before Parsons turn, then the seige weapons cannot be destroyed, and Gobwin Knob can be attacked on it's walls. If the Warlords survive Ansom's turn, then next turn, the seige can be destroyed, and, barring more seige engines being made, eventually, at another of Ansom's cities, they must attack via the tunnels.

There are lots of Dragons, but if Jillian and crew destroy the wounded dragons, but not the warlords, then the next turn the warlords take the unwounded dragons and destroy the seige units, then return to GK.

[Girl Wonder]

If Vinny's calculations are correct, Ansom can still muster a force that can give 43 dwagons an "even fight". Certainly he could have used that force to smash through six dwagons in the strongest hex with no problem. There is no doubt, NONE, that Ansom could have chosen "frontal assault" as his tactical card. He'd have been in a vastly stronger position now had he done so.

Well, at the beginning of the turn, Ansom wasn't even considering that he wasn't going to have to fight lots and lots of 'strong' (but wounded) dragons after the frontal assault, I think his original thought was to have as strong a 'forest-capable' force as possible for the main event, the fight with the strong dragons in the center. Then, after winning that fight, he'd be in a fine position to just stay put and face the surrounding 'weak' dragons since he and his force would be healed to full, and he wouldn't need to return to the column because the siege was safe (the strong dragons and warlords being croaked).

Remember, even though he outnumbers Stanley's force 25-to-1, his ability to attack flying units in forest seems much less than that, so his steamroller/sledgehammer isn't quite as big in this situation. He took what he could, I think, and, convinced that the objective was in the center hex, he approached it from the route that would give him the best chance to accomplish the objective. If the dragons had been there (and needed to be fought), he was better for having not gotten his forces roughed up more by storming straight in.

But, they weren't there. I'd say Ansom/Vinnie's mistake was not in failing to try to steamroller, but in failing to allow for the possibility that what they believed to be true was not, in fact, the truth.

All that being said, I hope Ansom's forces find and do some serious damage to the 'strong' dragons over the lake. For Parson (who still knows very little about Erfworld) to create some foolproof plan that covers every contingency and utterly counter the good guys at every turn would just make the plot a lot less suspensful... if Parson is already countering the good guys at every turn (with inferior knowledge and his back to the wall) then the good guys might as well surrender now, since his knowledge will only grow and his position will improve with every victory.

Unless the good guys learn from him, too ;) (Hopes)

[DavidByron]

Parson had three plans. They are mentioned on Erfworld 51,52 and 53 respectively. We know all about plan 3 because that's been the subject of the comic for the last 15-16 pages. Plan 2 was the plan before he found out Ansom can't see the board. It's hard to see why he thought he needed seven deep forest hexes but i can see it more or less.

What I have no handle on is his plan 1.
The plan that woke him in the middle of the night. The plan that involved moving troops at night - even though there appears to be no functional difference between moving last thing at night and first thing the next morning.

"That... kills one half of a very decent plan".

What half and what plan?

Ok here's my thought:

Parson's plan 1 was to store up all his daily move from one day for a huge double move, or two moves in quick succession taking place just before and just after midnight. Move 1 - go in and attack the siege units (attack siege was the other half of the very decent plan), move 2 run away back to GK with a full and fresh 56 move. That half of the plan was killed (because you can't store that move of course) and had to be replaced with the fortress thing. the other half, the siege half, Parson decided to go ahead with anyway - but he said,

"And the other half's got to wait until dawn"

[sihnfahl]

1) Wanda implied that veiling units is an unlikely move on Stanley's part. "Perhaps," she said, "he would rather believe that we have veiled our wounded units than that we bested him tactically."

That's not what she's implying at all. It -was- a likely move. It just wasn't employed in this situation. She's referring to Ansom's move into an empty hex.
Ansom knows Stanley has a foolamancer. Foolamancers can veil units. The hex the bat went into looked empty. The dragon fort was set up to protect something important. Ergo, Stanley's Foolamancer veiled the units in the hex to make it look empty to a mere scout.

2) It seems that options 3) "The Hunt" and 1) "The Flight" are mutually exclusive. If they are, this implies that Ansom's plan is to somehow use the Archons and Zamussels to find the dwagons, and then join the attack himself. Otherwise, why not hunt down the wounded dwagons AND blast back to the column?

They're not mutually exclusive. If Ansom's having Jillian hunt for the warlords, Ansom isn't moving at all. He has no idea where the dwagons are hiding. He may not have the move to keep up with the hunters; in fact, he could run out of move, personally, and end up having to call off the hunt or be left by himself, with Vinnie and the bats, while Jillian's stack kept looking.
He would still have the move to burst back to the column, though, if he didn't join the hunt.

[SteveMB]

Well, at the beginning of the turn, Ansom wasn't even considering that he wasn't going to have to fight lots and lots of 'strong' (but wounded) dragons after the frontal assault, I think his original thought was to have as strong a 'forest-capable' force as possible for the main event, the fight with the strong dragons in the center. Then, after winning that fight, he'd be in a fine position to just stay put and face the surrounding 'weak' dragons since he and his force would be healed to full, and he wouldn't need to return to the column because the siege was safe (the strong dragons and warlords being croaked).

Not quite -- Ansom's forces don't heal until the start of his next turn (which is after Stanley's next turn). Presumably he expected to croak the wounded dwagons and the uncroaked warlords, and still have a strong enough force (even after the damage taken in that fight) to survive any attack by the remaining (unled) ones from the ring. Now, he knows that he could be attacked by all (but three) of them, with warlords leading them (providing their bonuses and enabling the dwagons to focus on select targets).

All that being said, I hope Ansom's forces find and do some serious damage to the 'strong' dragons over the lake. For Parson (who still knows very little about Erfworld) to create some foolproof plan that covers every contingency and utterly counter the good guys at every turn would just make the plot a lot less suspensful... if Parson is already countering the good guys at every turn (with inferior knowledge and his back to the wall) then the good guys might as well surrender now, since his knowledge will only grow and his position will improve with every victory.

Agreed. I think Ansom's side will catch some kind of break, possibly related to something Parson didn't know about yet.

[JazzManJim]

Is anyone else waiting for the point where Jillian and the Archons find the "A" stack and rush in, only to run out of move one hex before they can initiate combat?

I know I am.

I see that as a real possibility.

After all, no one on Ansom's side actually knows where the "A" stack is. They're going to have to fan out and burn up what little move they have left searching. There's the very real chance that they could end up scattered and out of move.

Then the Bad Stuff happens to them.

I kind of like seeing the change in Ansom in the last frame. He's always struck me as a man of bold action and a little daring. The last few comics he's been relatively meek and has deferred a lot to his advisors, especially Vinny. It looks to me like he's going back to his strength. If that's the case, the matchup between Ansom and Parson ought to be a thing to behold.

[enfolder]

That's not what she's implying at all. It -was- a likely move. It just wasn't employed in this situation. She's referring to Ansom's move into an empty hex.
Ansom knows Stanley has a foolamancer. Foolamancers can veil units. The hex the bat went into looked empty. The dragon fort was set up to protect something important. Ergo, Stanley's Foolamancer veiled the units in the hex to make it look empty to a mere scout.

How do you know that foolamancers veil units? Why do you think that veiling -was- a likely move? I understand how Ansom came to the conclusion that the dwagons were veiled, I'm just pointing out that Wanda's comment makes veiling sound nearly as improbable to Ansom as his being bested tactically by Stanley. How else can you read her statement?

They're not mutually exclusive. If Ansom's having Jillian hunt for the warlords, Ansom isn't moving at all. He has no idea where the dwagons are hiding. He may not have the move to keep up with the hunters; in fact, he could run out of move, personally, and end up having to call off the hunt or be left by himself, with Vinnie and the bats, while Jillian's stack kept looking.
He would still have the move to burst back to the column, though, if he didn't join the hunt.

It certainly sounds like they're mutually exclusive from the comic. If Jillian and the Archons don't have the strength to take on all of the wounded A dwagons themselves, then "The Hunt" would require Ansom and Vinnie to join them AFTER Jillian has found them, thus making "The Flight" impossible.

First of all, why didn't Parson simply move all the Dwagons he had, wounded and otherwise, into the single hex over the lake? If he had done that, there is absolutely no way Ansom could have even touched them(assuming he could find them. I mean, the defenders would have 46+ Dwagons and 3 warlords over a lake hex that only Jillian, 5 Gwiffons, the archons, Ansom on carpet, and Vinnie+bats could reach. I don't care how powerful the Archons are or how good Ansom's stack bonus is, there is no way they could take out such a force, or even get through the B Dwagons excess hits in time to start actually killing Dwagons. This shows me that Parson is capable of making mistakes.

As has been repeatedly pointed out in the comic, the "fort" was a TRAP for Ansom, not a true defense. Of course the lake was a better defensive position -- the trap worked because Ansom didn't know it was there. Had Parson sent all of the dwagons to the lake, Ansom never would have charged in to a vulnerable position. Instead, it would have given Ansom time to send his archery and flying units to guard consolidated siege units. By building a fake fort, Parson lures Ansom into spreading those units thin AND gets Ansom trapped in a situation where he loses the Arkenpliers. Now Ansom is caught in a fork -- lose the pliers or the siege (or both!)

[Michael Chandra]

How do you know that foolamancers veil units? Why do you think that veiling -was- a likely move? I understand how Ansom came to the conclusion that the dwagons were veiled, I'm just pointing out that Wanda's comment makes veiling sound nearly as improbable to Ansom as his being bested tactically by Stanley. How else can you read her statement?

Exactly the way sihnfahl read it, most likely.
"His assumption, again. He knows we have a Foolamancer... Perhaps he would rather believe that we have veiled our wounded units than that we bested him tactically."
She explains to Parson what Ansom's way of thinking could be, but nor her words, nor her face, seem to express anything regarding its potential, it's just an explanation. Nothing about probability, just Ansom's wish being the father of his thoughts.


As for Galdon, a few remarks. First of all, I doubt the Archons are warlords, probably just expensive mercenary moths that are pretty decent at fighting. Second, even if they are, the system isn't clear about warlord bonuses. If they stack, then it would be far too easy to construct an invincible group existing of way too many warlords, so most likely the main one counts. Which means +8 stack and +9 Zamussels, so +17.
Was good enough for her to take out a full-health dragon with some help from annoying birds, so this stack probably could take out at least half the A-dragons, even if we exclude Vinny and Ansom. But we'll find out, or not, soon enough I guess.

[enfolder]

Exactly the way sihnfahl read it, most likely.
"His assumption, again. He knows we have a Foolamancer... Perhaps he would rather believe that we have veiled our wounded units than that we bested him tactically."
She explains to Parson what Ansom's way of thinking could be, but nor her words, nor her face, seem to express anything regarding its potential, it's just an explanation. Nothing about probability, just Ansom's wish being the father of his thoughts.

Duh, of course it must be foolamancers. Sorry about that.

Still, I read "he would rather believe A than B" where B is very unlikely to imply that A is almost as unlikely. I think Wanda's statement is most naturally read to mean that Ansom is so convinced he couldn't have been bested that he'd "rather believe" anything, no matter how outlandish, before he'd believe that -- even something as outlandish as Stanley veiling his units. This is consistent with the fact that we've seen several turns with no hint of veiling, so we know it's not the sort of thing one does every turn. There must be some reason for its scarcity.

Perhaps, though, veiling is only an unlikely move in this case because it wouldn't have had much of a chance of making any difference. After all, Ansom went charging in, anyway.

[Warfare]

I have to wonder about this 'hunt' supposedly for the wounded dragons. On page 56, Ansom replies to the question of whether he has enough forces to face the wounded dragons and the warlords by mentioning that the warlords are uncroaked, giving him the advantage with the arkenpliers.

Even if Zam and the rest can find the dragons, it doesn't seem like they can defeat them without the pliers to defeat the warlords fast.

[ag30476]

Ok I think I'll throw in my 2 cents...

In agreement with your take...

First of all, why didn't Parson simply move all the Dwagons he had, wounded and otherwise, into the single hex over the lake?

We don't know what base hex he chose for the original plan with a non-empty center hex. Maybe it was the one over the lake. Or maybe it was this one closer to the column to maximize the dwagon attacks on the column. After changing the plan to take into account Ansom's fog of war, he created the dwagon fort, near but not too near the column to lure Ansom into the trap and he has. Ansom is now worse off than before.

The other thing I wonder is this, since Parson comes from Earth where wars are realtime, and since his stats don't appear to be viewable by the natives, what would happen if Parson just waded right into the coalition forces in the middle of the night and started snacking on Gwiffons and eating Marbits? I mean could they even fight back? The rules say no, and besides, Parson is huge compared to most of these cutesy boop people.

Size is no indicator of power in Erfworld. And just because he has no stats does not mean he can terrorize the battle in hand-to-hand. He seems to function by Erfworld physics...for ex the way he boops. Having no stats means he probly does not give a bonus to troops which is one of the biggest assets for having a warlord in a stack. And Parson is a thinker not a fighter. He defended himself against a dwagon mounted Stanley by words.

[DavidByron]

As has been repeatedly pointed out in the comic, the "fort" was a TRAP for Ansom, not a true defense. Of course the lake was a better defensive position

Parson's plan 2 has it as a true defence. In plan 3 it becomes a trap.

[ag30476]

I have to wonder about this 'hunt' supposedly for the wounded dragons. On page 56, Ansom replies to the question of whether he has enough forces to face the wounded dragons and the warlords by mentioning that the warlords are uncroaked, giving him the advantage with the arkenpliers.

Even if Zam and the rest can find the dragons, it doesn't seem like they can defeat them without the pliers to defeat the warlords fast.

Exactly...we have to wait to see what this hunt is about, how it's supposed to work and if it can work...waiting...and waiting...and waiting...

[Raiser Blade]

i know that parson is the anti-hero but i want vinny to win
or at the least survive