OOTS #1063 - The Discussion Thread

[SethoMarkus]

Being able to implement fixes of any complexity is an INT-based skill.

Choosing a particular fix strategy that does not make further work overly difficult (in other words, avoiding technical debt) is a WIS-based skill.

Dealing with people is, of course, CHA-based.

Said "maintenance" also involved repairs from extensive damage involving being caught directly in a nasty storm and fixing up the ship with an utterly inadequate supply of spare parts. There's absolutely no reason to think that Andi is anything but competent at her job, other than people disliking the character and extrapolating ineptitude that wasn't there from the dislike.

You misunderstand, I am not arguing that Andi doesn't get the job done (when she is actually doing her job). I am just pointing out that, as far as I am aware, we only know two things about Andi's mechanical repairs:

1) They keep the ship flying,
2) They make it difficult for "real repairs" later

Obviously she is accomplishing her job. However, as far as I remember, the only comment about the quality of her work was that it is a jury-rigging mess.

Whether or not she is able to perform any repairs in the middle of this combat is irrelevant. Her duties as Chief Engineer should be to engage in any repairs she can, direct other engineers on what they should be doing, delivering a status update to the Captain and/or helmsman, or, failing everything else, assisting in fighting off the attackers. At the very least, stay out of the way of others.

She didn't even do this correctly, however.

She may be a genius, competent, miracle-worker of a mechanic, but, from what we have seen in-panel, she is not "Chief Engineer" material, in my eyes.

I agree there is a lot of undue dislike towards her (I am guilty of that bias myself), but I see a lot of support for her that I cannot understand. I haven't seen many admirable qualities in her...

[Douglas]

2) They make it difficult for "real repairs" later

We don't actually know that one. That's something the gnomes said, and there's strong reason to believe they were deliberately exaggerating the problems and required work in order to scam Bandana out of an extortionate price for the repairs - that's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for how Haley was able to bargain them down so far.

[Quibblicious]

If they're all stand-ins for the early days OotS, does that mean Andi=Belkar just knocked out Bandana=Roy?
Blue headscarf=Durkon, rushing to heal/aid?
(Somewhat) emotionally indifferent helmsman=Vaarsuvius?
And Elan & Haley freaking out on the sidelines?

..I'm probably taking the comparison too far...

And I say you've not gone too far enough!

Q

[Kish]

I don't think there's supposed to be a reasonable explanation for Haley bargaining them down so far. Magic makes sense. What she does defies the natural order.

[JumboWheat01]

We don't actually know that one. That's something the gnomes said, and there's strong reason to believe they were deliberately exaggerating the problems and required work in order to scam Bandana out of an extortionate price for the repairs - that's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for how Haley was able to bargain them down so far.

Haley has a dangerous bluff skill and she's not afraid to use it.

[Peelee]

Haley has a dangerous bluff skill and she's not afraid to use it.

"You'll get paid in exposure?"

[Rogar Demonblud]

As in them entering a suitable monster's territory due to not following the pass? Makes sense to me and nice idea if so. Not as sure about it being a dragon though.

Since frost giants are generally accompanied by white dragons when you encounter them in small groups, I'd say we're overdue for one showing up. Which probably mean Belkar's going to be the one to encounter the winter wolves.

They'd contracted gnomes to fix the ship. Andi didn't need to hang around, she just wanted to. She can't complain to the captain about work she doesn't need to do yet volunteers for anyway. Well, I mean she can, but it's a crap complaint.

I always figured part of the reason Andi had to stay behind was to explain her juryrigging to the engineers.

[dancrilis]

I don't think there's supposed to be a reasonable explanation for Haley bargaining them down so far. Magic makes sense. What she does defies the natural order.

This bloke here posts a bit showing that logically the shipyard owner inflated the time it would take before Haley spoke to them.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, it's a fairly standard mechanic's con. Over-inflate the time required, demand more money.

Scotty kind of lampooned it in the TNG episode 'Relics'.

[nocoolnamejim]

That is for the rest of the crew to decide - and you are mischaracterising the scenario not 'simply a better idea' but a firm belief that the lives of them and all other people required it.

For example was the mutiny in Crimson Tide justified, there are different sides to this and I am not picking one but I can see them and understand where people are coming from.

Ironically, the Crimson Tide mutiny was done to prevent a global thermo-nuclear war - i.e. to "save the world". And it wasn't even a question of "maybe" in that case. If they launched their nukes, Russia would see them coming and launch back. The world WOULD be destroyed. Full stop.

In other words, even if the Captain had ended up being right and the order was still to launch their nukes, it was worth confirming the order due to the catastrophic consequences of being wrong if the order was instead a stand down order. Also, they were one ship. The U.S. has LOTS of nuclear submarines. If the previous order to launch still stood, then the other ships would still launch. The Captain was clearly acting irrationally. He was willing to destroy the world without full information.

Andi's mutiny was done because she never had accepted Bandana's leadership up to this point, didn't like the ship being used as a ferry service, and was resentful that Bandana wasn't taking her suggestions on the best course of action to protect the ship. Her mutiny was out of jealousy and cowardice.

I'd also point out that the chief engineer isn't usually the next officer down below the Captain. So Andi is effectively trying to jump SEVERAL levels up the food chain. If she truly felt that Bandana was unfit for command, she could have gotten the other officers onboard with that line of thinking prior to just losing her cool.

In fact, she did try: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html

Everyone else accepted the solution. Only Andi rejected it.

[Jasdoif]

It's pretty weird how the level-headed Bandana hasn't shown any negative character traits, or did I miss them?

I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy?

[Chei]

I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy?

It's funny because she treated Roy more brusquely there than she treated anyone on the crew for the whole book until Andi provoked her. I actually thought shanghaiing Roy was one of her better moments as captain.

[Spellbreaker26]

I think she gets unduly hard on people when captaining. How she treats Andi has the same general scope as how Andi treats her, so that could be just be the baseline for their relationship; but how she talks to Roy?

Either way, Bandana is probably one of the less interesting side characters in the series; she's certainly no replacement for Belkar like some people were suggesting, and I highly doubt Belkar will die in this particular encounter anyway.

[KorvinStarmast]

Either way, Bandana is probably one of the less interesting side characters in the series; she's certainly no replacement for Belkar like some people were suggesting, and I highly doubt Belkar will die in this particular encounter anyway.

The sexy-shoeless-god-of-war is in his element. Not his time, yet, and if winter wolves show up I suspect he'll do that ranger thing (as he did with the dinosaur) and end up riding one into battle -- for cool points if for no other reason.

[Sans.]

I don't suppose there's some sort of spell Vaarsuvius could cast to refill the helium in one of the myriad 3.5 supplements?

[nocoolnamejim]

I don't suppose there's some sort of spell Vaarsuvius could cast to refill the helium in one of the myriad 3.5 supplements?

Limited Wish would do the trick.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedWish.htm

But I'd be surprised if that's what happens. Doubt Giant wants to go down the rabbit hole of V having access to Wish spells.

[Ezekiel]

For some reason I can't stop laughing at: "but chances are, my ranger stabbed all your friends in the elbows..."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't suppose there's some sort of spell Vaarsuvius could cast to refill the helium in one of the myriad 3.5 supplements?

There is in OotS

GW

[dancrilis]

There is in OotS

GW

Although Vaarsuvius can't conjure, assuming the spell is from the conjuration school of course.

Polymorph Any Object might allow for it if the Giant is feeling generous though.

[darkelement]

There's been so much discussion of the clash of personalities between Andi and Bandana, and the buildup to this explosion and what each of the two characters could have said or done differently, that I feel like the very immediate clash of priorities, as opposed to personalities, is getting missed.

At bottom, I see this as a case of an irreconcilable conflict between the goals and morality of these two women, not either one of them being contrary just for the sake of spiting the other (not even Andi). Put simply, Bandana wants to be a self-sacrificing hero and Andi isn't on board with it. I feel like one of Bandana's failings as a leader was obfuscating her motives and making excuses instead of being forthright about the fact that she was signing them all up for a suicide mission (And if we're going to go all Elan about this and discuss the shape of the narrative; signing up to ferry the heroes on some crucial mission in the final act to save the world is the definition of a suicide mission in fantasy stories).

The basic genesis of this conflict, and the reason Bandana got wrenched, is that Bandana was willing to risk her life and those of the crew (and their livelihood in the ship) to help save the world, and Andi is not. As has been explained before, these pirates are one of the very select few in a position to escape the destruction of the world and go on living rather than sacrificing themselves in a desperate attempt to avert the coming doom. Bandana has, by her actions, shown that she will gladly sacrifice herself and everyone else on board the ship if it helps the OotS complete their mission. I take the proof of this to be when a frost giant cuts three crew members in half, and Andi reacts to it while Bandana ignores it, still maintaining a laser-like focus on getting the adventurers through the pass.

With that in mind, I think that Andi is (correctly) taking Bandana's insistence that pushing through to reach the other side of the mountains is actually the safest course with a gargantuan grain of salt.

I mean, how is it that "Continuing to fly into an overwhelming barrage of surface-to-air missile fire" has been taken to be the safe and sane course of action here? Do we have any evidence that is the case aside from Bandana's say-so? Whereas taking evasive action and turning out of the ambush is considered reckless to the point of insanity? How do you figure that? We'll have to see what the next strip brings but the benefits to the ship's odds of survival from Andi's mutiny so far have been obvious and immediate.

This is not the same as me saying that Bandana is 'wrong' per se, or acting badly. She clearly has a good alignment while Andi and some of the other pirates don't. But I think that Andi was 100% correct in her assessment that keeping the ship and crew alive is not Bandana's top priority anymore, and I can't really blame her for resenting that. Bandana was well aware that something like this (if not this exact ambush) might happen as a result of her continuing to ferry the OotS, and now the ship is close to wrecked and the crew is being killed but she's still prioritizing the needs of the adventurers (and, well, the world) above all else. I mean, good on her for having such a heroic spirit, but I can't bring myself to blame Andi for reacting the way she has.

[nocoolnamejim]

Put simply, Bandana wants to be a self-sacrificing hero and Andi isn't on board with it. I feel like one of Bandana's failings as a leader was obfuscating her motives and making excuses instead of being forthright about the fact that she was signing them all up for a suicide mission

Captain Scoundral was pretty upfront about that. He quite literally read his letter putting Bandana in charge towards that very end from the deck of the ship.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html

Not sure you can really blame Bandana for following the orders of her captain. And if Andi had objections to Scoundral's decision she could have spoken up then rather than bitching, moaning and whining about it ever since.

Although to be fair, I don't see her in any of the panels of that strip so I suppose it is possible that Andi doesn't know that Bandana is just following the orders of a captain she's wished back in charge multiple times previously.

But I don't think Bandana has been at all unclear about her motives. In addition to Julio's letter being read outloud by Julio himself, Bandana has on multiple occasions mentioned that they're in the process of saving the world. Most notably here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1028.html

She's completely open about what they're doing and the crew - with Andi being the sole exception - are completely okay with it so long as they get paid.

[Kish]

The basic genesis of this conflict, and the reason Bandana got wrenched, is that Bandana was willing to risk her life and those of the crew (and their livelihood in the ship) to help save the world, and Andi is not. As has been explained before, these pirates are one of the very select few in a position to escape the destruction of the world and go on living

You'll need to support that assertion a little better than handwaving "as has been explained before."

I mean, how is it that "Continuing to fly into an overwhelming barrage of surface-to-air missile fire" has been taken to be the safe and sane course of action here? Do we have any evidence that is the case aside from Bandana's say-so? Whereas taking evasive action and turning out of the ambush is considered reckless to the point of insanity? How do you figure that?

You mean other than the immediate "the balloon didn't get patched directly because of that swerve, and continues to lose air" and "the helmsman no longer has an actual destination and is requesting immediate input on which way to go around the mountain right in front of them while the rest of the crew, including Andi, freak out" examples of what you're scoffing at being something the audience is being beaten over the head with?

This is not the same as me saying that Bandana is 'wrong' per se,

Sure looks like it to me. With a side of "but I'd rather my obvious and extreme weighting be viewed as purest objectivity."

[hroþila]

I definitely don't see Bandana as a self-sacrificing hero. She's simply brave and cool-headed enough to have come up with a plan that is very dangerous, but perfectly rational and designed to maximize their chances of survival.

[Jasdoif]

The basic genesis of this conflict, and the reason Bandana got wrenched, is that Bandana was willing to risk her life and those of the crew (and their livelihood in the ship) to help save the world, and Andi is not.

Really? 'cause I seem to remember Andi lashing out over Bandana's short-term view of Andi, not Bandana's long-term view of the Mechane.

[nocoolnamejim]

Really? 'cause I seem to remember Andi lashing out over Bandana's short-term view of Andi, not Bandana's long-term view of the Mechane.

There's also this here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1043.html

Andi's beef clearly seems personal to me. She felt she deserved to have the ship and be in charge and assumes that the only reason Scoundrel left Bandana in charge was to get her some experience because she's "just a kid". (A phrase that has come up repeatedly.) She sees no other explanation for why Julio passed her over...like maybe that her people skills suck and a Captain has to have those?

Also, she's fixed the ship for 15 years so she'd have more of a "claim" on it if Scoundrel was really retiring? That typically isn't how these things work. She has no claim on the ship just because she's worked on it for a lot of years. Whomever owns the ship gets to decide that sort of thing.

She's basically been stewing ever since Scoundrel picked Bandana over her to run the ship in his absence.

[luagha]

As an aside, it's an indication of how far Roy has come in that he's been taking hits/parrying/swinging with two Giants (likely tougher ones with class levels) and he's barely showing any injury.

They must be afraid of his high-ish fighter armor class and not be Power Attacking.

[arrowed]

Is there any official ruling on Andi/Bandana/the crews' alignments? I'd peg most of the crew as neutral on the good-evil slider, with the whole 'getting paid' strip, and probably Andi too, but I'm not sure whether I'd call Bandana good or neutral. On one hand Bandana is risking herself, her friends and her ship for the survival of the world. On the other hand, she lives on the world. But at the same time, the rest of the crew, who know the stakes to some extent, are not as committed. Is the difference made up by her somewhat stronger relationship with the Order?
Chaos seems a given for a crew that indiscriminately ignores the laws of wherever they are when convenient, but like most alignment questions this is probably way different from the right perspective.

[Keltest]

Is there any official ruling on Andi/Bandana/the crews' alignments? I'd peg most of the crew as neutral on the good-evil slider, with the whole 'getting paid' strip, and probably Andi too, but I'm not sure whether I'd call Bandana good or neutral. On one hand Bandana is risking herself, her friends and her ship for the survival of the world. On the other hand, she lives on the world. But at the same time, the rest of the crew, who know the stakes to some extent, are not as committed. Is the difference made up by her somewhat stronger relationship with the Order?
Chaos seems a given for a crew that indiscriminately ignores the laws of wherever they are when convenient, but like most alignment questions this is probably way different from the right perspective.

Julio is Chaotic Neutral, but also nominally heroic, so it seems likely to me that he attracts a crew of chaotic neutrals and chaotic goods.

[Christian]

Similarly, my RN isn't actually going to hang me or make me walk the plank for violating my ethical responsibilities. She's just going to fire my ass and call the police. Chaosism cuts both ways.

Man, now I'm hoping that when I'm too old to care for myself, my kids put me in a pirate-run nursing home.

[Spellbreaker26]

She sees no other explanation for why Julio passed her over...like maybe that her people skills suck and a Captain has to have those?

I actually don't think her people skills suck outright. Her interactions with Roy and Belkar show a more-or-less reasonable personality. It's only when Bandana's in the room that she acts like a brat.

It's possible that Julio thinks that Bandana would make a better captain based on other factors. I suspect having a level head in a crisis is one of these; this is a vital skill for any captain.