Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

[Coidzor]

What's the "Limbs" modification you list? An Animated Objects thing, or an Intelligent Objects thing? I'm not finding it.

On the table of powers for Intelligent Items(the base powers, not the special purpose powers):

46-50 Item can sprout limbs and move with a speed of 10 feet

[Segev]

On the table of powers for Intelligent Items(the base powers, not the special purpose powers):

Oh! Huh. That's...a little bizarre.

[Coidzor]

Oh! Huh. That's...a little bizarre.

Yes, yes it is, but I like quirky things. Probably too much, really

It also seemed like a way to sidestep the questions of having a construct under your control go uncontrolled and under the power of the intelligent item by just having an intelligent item you had to deal with and giving it a special purpose of doing a task that would make it unlikely to wander off.

[Segev]

I'm honestly of the opinion that making it intelligent doesn't change its obedience. But yeah.

Now, to actually price out gear and item-crafting supplies for this character. The DM isn't going to let me spend GP at half value during chargen, so I am probably going to save "craft supplies" to do the crafting once the game gets going.

One of the items I'll start with, though, is a suit of clothing animated into a "flight suit." Not sure which outfit to use as a base. The character's a prince, but I'm unsure if he'd have enchanted his royal outfit or a suit of more modest traveling clothes. He probably got it fitted specially so that it could heft him comfortably, without pinching or chafing, when he had it carry him.

Other than that, though: Medium Animated Object (outfit of clothes; 3 HD), cloth (-1 CP), slow (10 ft.; -2 CP), flight (30 ft. [clumsy]; +1 CP). 1000 gp base price, plus price of base outfit. Make it have a +1 enhancement to armor so it can bear other enchantments, later, as well: +1000 gp.

Considering animating the spellbook, too. Having a spellbook that'll actively seek out its master if it gets separated from him could be useful. Going to have the 500 gp already-completed painting of his familiar in the front inside page of the book, too; can spend the time to enchant it as a Trompe L'oeil later.

Making sure I keep space open in my budget for spells and a headband of intellect will be tricky.

[Jack_Simth]

Other than that, though: Medium Animated Object (outfit of clothes; 3 HD), cloth (-1 CP), slow (10 ft.; -2 CP), flight (30 ft. [clumsy]; +1 CP). 1000 gp base price, plus price of base outfit. Make it have a +1 enhancement to armor so it can bear other enchantments, later, as well: +1000 gp.

Is it strong enough to carry you and your gear while flying?

Ignoring that, though: The solution as to what style of clothes to make it is simple: It's a bodysuit you wear under other clothing (aka, long johns). Need to fly in your royal apparel? Gotcha covered. Need to blend in a little better? Not a problem.

[Coidzor]

I'm honestly of the opinion that making it intelligent doesn't change its obedience. But yeah.

Now, to actually price out gear and item-crafting supplies for this character. The DM isn't going to let me spend GP at half value during chargen, so I am probably going to save "craft supplies" to do the crafting once the game gets going.

Can you Earn Capital and stockpile Magic or Goods?

One of the items I'll start with, though, is a suit of clothing animated into a "flight suit." Not sure which outfit to use as a base. The character's a prince, but I'm unsure if he'd have enchanted his royal outfit or a suit of more modest traveling clothes. He probably got it fitted specially so that it could heft him comfortably, without pinching or chafing, when he had it carry him.

Other than that, though: Medium Animated Object (outfit of clothes; 3 HD), cloth (-1 CP), slow (10 ft.; -2 CP), flight (30 ft. [clumsy]; +1 CP). 1000 gp base price, plus price of base outfit. Make it have a +1 enhancement to armor so it can bear other enchantments, later, as well: +1000 gp.

Considering animating the spellbook, too. Having a spellbook that'll actively seek out its master if it gets separated from him could be useful. Going to have the 500 gp already-completed painting of his familiar in the front inside page of the book, too; can spend the time to enchant it as a Trompe L'oeil later.

Making sure I keep space open in my budget for spells and a headband of intellect will be tricky.

Sounds great and very interesting and even flavorful.

I think that may also be the new cheapest way to get flight.

Really makes me wish that Construct Armor was better, too.

[Segev]

Is it strong enough to carry you and your gear while flying?

Ignoring that, though: The solution as to what style of clothes to make it is simple: It's a bodysuit you wear under other clothing (aka, long johns). Need to fly in your royal apparel? Gotcha covered. Need to blend in a little better? Not a problem.

Dagfirnit, you're right. ST 14 light load is 35 lbs. Frankly, my wizard probably can't technically fly with a fly spell and his standard gear, with his ST of 7.

To get to a strength that can carry even a 170-lb human (ignoring all his gear), you'd need a ST 22 construct. That's Large. And even that's pushing it. Hrm.

[Coidzor]

Dagfirnit, you're right. ST 14 light load is 35 lbs. Frankly, my wizard probably can't technically fly with a fly spell and his standard gear, with his ST of 7.

To get to a strength that can carry even a 170-lb human (ignoring all his gear), you'd need a ST 22 construct. That's Large. And even that's pushing it. Hrm.

I suppose the Advanced Simple Template would boost it by 4. 100 pounds or less would probably work if you were a Small character, I suppose. It'd have to be something fairly bulky to be worn by a Small character but count as a Medium-sized animated object, though, or if a Medium character were wearing a Large-sized animated object.

Maybe lots of layers? Pop-out wings?

A Large-sized Animated Object with 22 Str would get boosted to 26 by the Advanced simple template, and 306 pounds or less should easily cover a wizard and his gear, at least as long as he's not fat. Final CR would be 3 instead of 2 with all the construction flaws and the baseline CP spent on giving it Flight and making the fly speed faster.

Of course, you'd need to compare the cost of the Advanced Simple Template with boosting Str by 2 twice, since IIRC that's just 4K gp each time you do it and you can stack it ad nauseum.

[Segev]

The issue with the Advanced Simple template is that it has no actual impact on the price of an Animated Object, to a crafter. It adds +1 CR, but the Animated Object rules don't care.

On the other hand, a fairly exhaustive search of the rules and internet discussion (to see if they'd found something I hadn't) reveals that PF doesn't actually have a rule that says you can't fly with greater than a heavy load. Likewise, nothing says that Fly speeds are not reduced by medium and heavy loads. And since they're Speeds, the default rules would apply without something saying otherwise.


Therefore, I'm probably "okay" with Medium Animated Object clothes carrying my character, as long as he's a relatively light Medium human (less than 170 lbs, including clothes and whatever gear he personally carries). (Since he's got a Str of 7, he isn't going to be carrying much, himself.) The heavy-load animated clothes will be reduced from a flight speed of 30 to a flight speed of 20. I could buy +10 ft. fly speed to recover a 30 ft speed, but I am unsure I want to spend another 1000 gp nor reduce its ground speed to 0 to compensate. I still have the fly spell to handle flight when I need it more seriously than as a brief convenience matter.


Building the Large Animated Object that I'm planning will resolve much of this. As a Large creature, its 22 Strength has its load ratings doubled. Tripled if you consider a rope that winds itself into a carpet-like construction a "quadruped."

The Animated Object will be a bloodvine rope that's long enough to wrap in a 2D spiral out to a 7 ft. radius, which circumscribes a 10 ft. square. It'll serve as a "flying carpet" in this shape, and will, when not serving in that capacity, unwind into a (500ish ft.) rope and serve as a heavy lifter, or as a grapple-monster (which, being a rope, can tie up foes with parts of itself as well).

[Coidzor]

The issue with the Advanced Simple template is that it has no actual impact on the price of an Animated Object, to a crafter. It adds +1 CR, but the Animated Object rules don't care.

Depends on the formula you use. Animated Objects have two different price formulas.

The first is by CR^2 * 500 gp and the second is Cost of Object + [(HD+CP) * 1,000 gp]. Then divide those by two(except for the cost of the object) for the crafting cost.

So a CR 2 Large Animated Object costs 1,000 gp to make while a CR 3 Large Animated Object costs 2,250 gp.

If you use the other one then I'm not sure how the Construction Flaws interact with making them cheaper or if taking construction flaws actually makes them more expensive.

Building the Large Animated Object that I'm planning will resolve much of this. As a Large creature, its 22 Strength has its load ratings doubled. Tripled if you consider a rope that winds itself into a carpet-like construction a "quadruped."

The Animated Object will be a bloodvine rope that's long enough to wrap in a 2D spiral out to a 7 ft. radius, which circumscribes a 10 ft. square. It'll serve as a "flying carpet" in this shape, and will, when not serving in that capacity, unwind into a (500ish ft.) rope and serve as a heavy lifter, or as a grapple-monster (which, being a rope, can tie up foes with parts of itself as well).

Right. I was briefly wondering myself about how to get Quadruped carrying capacity on it.

Sounds fun!

[Segev]

I think exception-based mechanics mean that the CR method really should only apply to constructs without other rules. It's the general; Animated Object construction rules are the specific.

I suppose you could still USE the CR method: you'd have to take the fixed CP that the various-size Animated Objects get as the total, and if you want more, use -CP flaws. Then the CR is fixed per Animated Object. And that would let you apply +/- CR templates to adjust the price.

Let's do a quick comparison:

Size	HD	CP	CR	HD+CP cost	CR cost
Tiny	1	1	1/2	2,000 gp	250 gp
Small	2	1	2	3,000 gp	2,000 gp
Medium	3	2	3	5,000 gp	4,500 gp
Large	4	3	5	7,000 gp	12,500 gp
Huge	7	4	7	11,000 gp	24,500 gp
Gargantuan	10	5	9	15,000 gp	40,500 gp
Colossal	13	6	11	19,000 gp	60,500 gp

This is, of course, just assuming that you take the recommended number of CP. The "HD+CP" method gives flexibility on that. The CR method does not, but gives flexibility on templates.

Looking at it, I'm thinking that the CR method is way too cheap at the low end and way too expensive at the high end. Add in that the CR method requires a house rule for the CL...I think it's best kept as a (apparently not great) catch-all rather than a valid substitute for a specific one.

Of course, if you do use the CR method, Tiny animated objects are amazingly cheap.

Edit: Below 1 CR, the formula doesn't square CR before multiplying by 500 gp to determine base price. Corrected the Tiny Animated Object CR-based price from 125 gp to 250 gp.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: Animated Object blurb with the three prices for the various sizes of Animated Object I came up with before the Template idea occurred to me.

Show

Animated Objects
(May be able to use as a method to make an intelligent magic item into a construct with HD instead of making a construct into an intelligent item?)

Flaws give additional CP and can be used to lower CR if those CP are unspent. Slower, Haunted, Flammable, Brittle, Cloth, and Clunky add up to +6 CP for a reduction of CR by 3.

Construction Costs:
CP discounted CR Based Price(Price 1): (CR-3)*(CR-3)*250
Base CR Based Price(Price 2): CR*CR*250
HD+CP with baseline CP spent Based Price(Price 3): (HD+CP)*500

Tiny Animated Object: 1 HD
Price 1: CR 1/6. 41.66 gp construction cost, 42 gp/HD ratio

Price 2: CR 1/2. 125 gp construction cost, 125 gp/HD ratio

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 1,000 gp construction cost, X + 1,000 gp/HD ratio

Base Spellcraft DC: 6

Commentary: Amazing/the best to good gp/HD ratios depending upon version. Also some of the cheapest constructs possible.


Small Animated Object: 2 HD
Price 1: CR 1/3. 166.66 gp construction cost. 83.33 per additional HD.
(84 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 584 gp/HD, 417 at 3 HD)

Price 2: CR 2. 1,000 gp construction cost. 500 per additional HD
(500 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1000 gp/HD, 834 at 3 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 1,500 gp construction cost. 750 per additional HD.
(X/2 + 750 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/3 + 1,250 gp/HD, X/3 + 1,084 at 3 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 7

Commentary: Very good to good gp/HD ratios. Again, some of the cheapest constructs possible.


Medium Animated Object: 3 HD
Price 1: CR 1/2(?). 250 gp construction cost. 83.33 per additional HD.
(84 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 417 gp/HD, 334 at 4 HD)

Price 2: CR 3. 2,250 gp construction cost. 750 per additional HD
(750 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,084 gp/HD, 1,000 at 4 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 2,500 gp construction cost. 833.33 per additional HD
(X/3 + 834 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/3 + 1,167 gp/HD, X/4 + 1,084 at 4 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 8

Commentary: Low HD for its size category, but very good gp/HD ratio when made with lots of drawbacks limiting its combat effectiveness, good gp/HD ratio when made normally.


Large Animated Object: 4 HD
Price 1: CR 2. 1000 gp construction cost. 250 per additional HD
(250 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 500 gp/HD, 417 at 6 HD)

Price 2: CR 5. 6,250 gp construction cost. 1,562.5 per additional HD
(1,563 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,813 gp/HD, 1,730 at 6 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 3,500 gp construction cost. 875 per additional HD
(X/4 + 875 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/4 + 1,125 gp/HD, X/6 + 1,042 at 6 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 9

Commentary: Very low HD for its size category, but still some great to good gp/HD ratios.


Huge Animated Object: 7 HD
Price 1: CR 4. 4,000 gp construction cost. 571.42 per additional HD
(572 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 715 gp/HD, 672 at 10 HD)

Price 2: CR 7. 12,500 gp construction cost. 1,785.71 per additional HD
(1,786 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,929 gp/HD, 1,886 at 10 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 5,500 gp construction cost. 785.71 per additional HD
(X/7 + 786 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: X/7 + 929 gp/HD, X/10 + 886 at 10 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 12

Commentary: Very low HD for its size category.


Gargantuan Animated Object: 10 HD
Price 1: CR 6. 9,000 gp construction cost. 900 per additional HD
(900 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,000 gp/HD, 967 at 15 HD)

Price 2: CR 9. 20,000 gp construction cost. 2,000 per additional HD
(2,000 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 2,100 gp/HD, 2,067 at 15 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 7,500 gp construction cost. 750 per additional HD
(X/10 + 750 gp/HD ratio,; Intelligent Item: X/10 + 850 gp/HD, X/15 + 817 at 15 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 15

Commentary: Good to average gp/HD ratios, poor HD for its size.


Colossal Animated Object: 13 HD
Price 1: CR 8. 16,000 gp construction cost. 1,230.76 per additional HD
(1,231 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 1,308 gp/HD, 1,284 at 19 HD)

Price 2: CR 11. 30,000 gp construction cost. 2,307.69 per additional HD
(2,308 gp/HD ratio; Intelligent Item: 2,385 gp/HD, 2,361 at 19 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 16

Price 3: Cost of Object + 9,500 gp construction cost. 730.76 per additional HD
(X/13 + 731 gp/HD ratio and cost per additional HD; Intelligent Item: X/13 + 808 gp/HD, X/19 + 784 at 19 HD)

Base Spellcraft DC: 18

Commentary: Good to Fair gp/HD ratios, poor HD for its size.

Of course, if you do use the CR method, Tiny animated objects are amazingly cheap.

Aye. As far as I can tell, it looks like a 25 gp construction cost to make a Tiny Animate Object that is actually Diminutive at the cheapest.

[unseenmage]

Aye. As far as I can tell, it looks like a 25 gp construction cost to make a Tiny Animate Object that is actually Diminutive at the cheapest.

Which is pretty sweet since Alchemical items can be Animate Object-ed.
Makes animating tech grenades almost affordable.

[Segev]

Of course, there's a slight flaw to the HD+CP system, if you assume CP can be net negative: you can create free animated objects. (Common sense house rule would be "minimum 1000 gp," though I suppose you could instead start treating -1s as x0.5s when you get to any reduction below 1 HD+CP)

[Coidzor]

One thing is that, near as I could figure around Mid-January when I was looking into it, an Animated Object has to be built with the default number of CP assigned to it, even if they aren't used, whether you use the CR-based formula or the HD+CP-based formula.



If you can forego making use of the default CP for a discount on the HD+CP-based formula, that will shift where the balance point between the two different pricing systems is and at what size you should use which formula for which purpose, and that'll become even more notable if the construction flaws decrease the effective CP if no CP are spent to offset them.

Having to keep that much in mind to know which is the better value for money for a given task is a bit of extra busywork, especially since it isn't done for you at present, that's one of the reasons I started making my catalogue.

The other is that I discovered you can make Soulbound Mannequins and give them Master Craftsman and have them make magic items for you and I wanted to see how far down the rabbit hole I could go.

Of course, there's a slight flaw to the HD+CP system, if you assume CP can be net negative: you can create free animated objects. (Common sense house rule would be "minimum 1000 gp," though I suppose you could instead start treating -1s as x0.5s when you get to any reduction below 1 HD+CP)

Yeah, I was left similarly confused when I was trying to consider that before I got resoundingly told that you have to take the base CP for the HD+CP formula.

I remain pretty unconvinced, but I wouldn't want to get too crazy trying to apply it, either, since I'm not really sure where a generally reasonable GM call would be.

[Segev]

Yeah, I was left similarly confused when I was trying to consider that before I got resoundingly told that you have to take the base CP for the HD+CP formula.

I remain pretty unconvinced, but I wouldn't want to get too crazy trying to apply it, either, since I'm not really sure where a generally reasonable GM call would be.

On the one hand, the various sizes do say "this has X CP." But on the other, the construction rules don't say you have to honor that; they just say it's "HD+CP." If they wanted it fixed, it would have been easier to just say "A Large Animated Object has a base price of 7,000 gp." With the formula, if the intent was that CP be fixed-total, a sentence saying so should have been included.

I think the HD+CP rules are overall more sensible, because they don't get stupidly cheap nor do they get laughably expensive, barring the degenerate "0 gp" case (or "-1000s of gp" which makes even less sense).

Now, you could set the limit in one of two ways: Don't let CP be a net negative (so your formula is actually max((HD+CP),HD)); or don't let HP+CP go to zero (so your formula is actually max((HD+CP),1)). I think the latter is better because the CP flaws are actually pretty biting and legitimately reduce the utility of the construct to the owner.

[unseenmage]

My GM and resident rules guru had advuce on effectively free Animated Object abilities and Necrocrafts since they use the same flawed subsystem.

It's over in my necromancy thread. (link is to post in question)

[Segev]

That seems like reasonable advice.

One more thing occurs to me: we have a one-way link of CP to CR in the animated object construction rules. In the section on CP-granting flaws, it says that for every net -2 CP, the animated object's CR should be reduced by 1.

From this, we could extrapolate that a +/- CR template can be translated to +/- 2 CP per +/- 1 CR.

So the Simple Advanced Template would be worth +2 CP. Remarkably cheap compared to the base construct rules for adding just +2 Str, but ... not ENTIRELY unreasonable. (+2 CP = +2000 gp base price for, amongst other things, +4 to all stats; while it's 5,000 gp per +2 to a single stat in the generic rules!)

Overall, I think the generic rules are too swingy.

Also, noticed an error in my table. Constructs with CR below 1 don't square the CR before multiplying by 500 gp. I'll update it.

[Coidzor]

IIRC the CR also goes up if you raise the CP above the base value for an Animated Object, but I'm on mobile right now.

Might be confusing Animated Objects and Necrocrafts.

[Segev]

IIRC the CR also goes up if you raise the CP above the base value for an Animated Object, but I'm on mobile right now.

Might be confusing Animated Objects and Necrocrafts.

You're absolutely right. I just checked.

So yeah, I'd argue that +1 CR templates probably = +2 CP. As long as you don't get too ridiculous, you can probably sell it to a DM. CERTAINLY, you could probably get some portion of a +1 CR template. Like, say, +4 Str. (I can definitely respect a DM saying the Simple Advanced Template doesn't add 4 to Wis and Cha of a mindless construct. Though I suppose that only really increases their Perception and Will saves. Or makes that animated lute a little better.)



Also, regarding getting a Medium Animated Suit to carry its wearer in flight, there is the spell ant haul. It trebles the weight in each load category for the target, and lasts 2 hours per CL.

[unseenmage]

To my knowledge one can still ignore the listed CL of any Magic Item or Construct unless that CL is specifically called out as being a prerequisite. Even then it can be skipped by increasing the DC to make the thing.

It's because of how the CLs are listed IIRC, they're listed with the other prerequisites that are given as examples of being ignorable. IIRC it's just a couple of Golems that have CL requirements described in another fashion.

From what I've seen in PF HD is almost always higher than CR for Constructs, and even then it doesn't matter since they only get bonus hp based on size.

Turns out my information was houserule info. Our GM decided tom ignore that line about needing to meet Construct CLs because it is only printed once and, to them, reeks of 3.x copypasta since it doesn't match any of the other Magic Item Crafting rules.

Apparently that's why we've been ignoring it. My apologies. Guess I've been losing Construct info with all the Undead info I've been absorbing lately.

[Segev]

Turns out my information was houserule info. Our GM decided tom ignore that line about needing to meet Construct CLs because it is only printed once and, to them, reeks of 3.x copypasta since it doesn't match any of the other Magic Item Crafting rules.

Apparently that's why we've been ignoring it. My apologies. Guess I've been losing Construct info with all the Undead info I've been absorbing lately.

No problem. It happens. There are tons and tons of rules, and that is a little fiddly bit.

And, to be fair, do you REALLY want to allow a 5th level caster to make an Iron Golem? I mean, yes, it'd cost, but...

[Coidzor]

Turns out my information was houserule info. Our GM decided tom ignore that line about needing to meet Construct CLs because it is only printed once and, to them, reeks of 3.x copypasta since it doesn't match any of the other Magic Item Crafting rules.

Apparently that's why we've been ignoring it. My apologies. Guess I've been losing Construct info with all the Undead info I've been absorbing lately.

It does seem very awkward, weird, and poorly done as to when which constructs come online, aye.

I guess that's why Waxwork Creatures were made, to throw a bone on that front.

[Segev]

It does seem very awkward, weird, and poorly done as to when which constructs come online, aye.

I guess that's why Waxwork Creatures were made, to throw a bone on that front.

Quite possibly. It IS awkward for a CL5 feat when the minimum CL for most of the options is well above that, and it's the only feat that has that clause.

If that clause wasn't there, you'd still need to get the materials somehow, and WBL only goes so far at ECL 5. Maybe you could talk a kingdom into funding your building of a golem for them...but they'd have to trust you a LOT (or be ignorant of the fact that you retain mastery of your creation even if you tell it to obey them).

[unseenmage]

Quite possibly. It IS awkward for a CL5 feat when the minimum CL for most of the options is well above that, and it's the only feat that has that clause.

If that clause wasn't there, you'd still need to get the materials somehow, and WBL only goes so far at ECL 5. Maybe you could talk a kingdom into funding your building of a golem for them...but they'd have to trust you a LOT (or be ignorant of the fact that you retain mastery of your creation even if you tell it to obey them).

To be fair PF also has a lot more options for usurping Construct control than 3.x did, though 3.x's were more stable and straightforward. Rod of Construct Control (AaEG) and Warforged Domain respectively.

IIRC PF's versions are largely spells though so they're more, hmm, accessible I guess.

[Coidzor]

The DC to craft a construct is 5 + the default caster level of the construct, just like for a magic item. Like when crafting magic items, a creator with a sufficiently high skill bonus may ignore these requirements. Each missing requirement increases the Craft DC by 5. Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements.

A thought occurred to me. It may be that the listed default caster level that exists largely for assigning the Spellcraft DC is separate from "minimum caster level requirements," especially for constructs which don't list a caster level in their requirements, such as Homunculi or Soulbound Mannequins.

Whereas, say, a Wax Golem or a Mask Golem, both require CL 9 in their requirements section.

[unseenmage]

I feel dumb asking but are you suggesting an alternative interpretation wherein CLs listed in requirements CAN be skipped but unlisted extrapolated CL requirements cannot?

[Coidzor]

I feel dumb asking but are you suggesting an alternative interpretation wherein CLs listed in requirements CAN be skipped but unlisted extrapolated CL requirements cannot?

I'm suggesting that CLs listed in the construction details but not in the requirements section set the Spellcraft DC but aren't the minimum required CL to make a construct.

So Homunculus has CL 7 and the market price listed and then lists out the requirements. The CL sets the Spellcraft DC for construction but isn't called out as a minimum requirement in the entry, so it isn't one.

Whereas a Wax Golem calls out that the caster *must* have a CL of 9 or higher in the requirements section, so there's no way to circumvent that by adding 5 to the Spellcraft DC.

[unseenmage]

Ah. Okay. That does make more sense.

Thank you for explaining.

[Coidzor]

Abrakarn Vipers, Animated Tanks, Broodiken, Soulbound Dolls, Soulbound Mannequins, Soulbound Shells, Guardian Scrolls, Ioun Wyrds, Ship in a Bottle constructs, Skull Rippers, Urannags, Guardian Gargoyles, and Homunculi are the current list I've got going of constructs that don't have a listed CL requirement or a CL listed in their requirements.

Edit: Set Guardians also have no listed minimum CL or CL requirement.

Colossi lack a minimum CL or CL requirement, but instead of Mythic Rank or Tier requirements of 4, 6, 7, or 8.

Emerald Automatons have a CL 6 requirement.

Edit 2: I'm not sure about how it works when you make a magical version of a Robot, but I believe those don't have anything like Craft: Mechanical rank requirements so they probably don't have minimum CL requirements when made as magical constructs instead of technological monstrosities.

Seems that Waxwork Creatures and Trompe L'oeils don't have a CL requirement listed, just that the CL for the spellcraft DC scales with the HD.

Taxidermic creatures don't seem to list construction information for them, leaving it to the individual group to use the Building and Modifying Constructs rules to determine the construction cost from the CR(?).