Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

[Segev]

I suspect that the discrepancy between constructs with CLs listed under "construction" but not in "requirements" and those which have it listed in both places is accidental, a case of sloppy writing/editing by Paizo, but it is an interesting distinction to call out. It is even defensible as a RAW distinction that makes the rule that says you can't ignore the CL requirement still have teeth while removing some of their bite.

[unseenmage]

I'm not sure about how it works when you make a magical version of a Robot, but I believe those don't have anything like Craft: Mechanical rank requirements so they probably don't have minimum CL requirements when made as magical constructs instead of technological monstrosities.

I'm going to look through the templates' wording later on.

Robots require technological Laboratories, even with the alternative Constructs by CR rules. Sadly tech labs are a tech artifact. There is a loophole, but it's cheesey. Requires creating a theoretical Simulacrum of an Animated Object of a Technological Laboratory. One supposes a Trompe L'oeil/Alter Ego of an Awakened Animated Object Technological Artifact could do as well.

Spoiler: Iron Gods AP Spoilers

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The danger here is that there are other tech artifacts are wholly inappropriate for any level of play. There's the stardrive for the main plotship, there's a mass extinction device, etc.

So yeah, just get your GM to waive the Tech Artifact status of the various technological laboratories instead. Will be much easier on everyone in the long run. Full disclosure, my GM left the Gravitic and Nanite labs on the artifact list so we'd have something to quest for at later levels though.

Edit: Another thing to note, the Robot Subtype reads like a template. Which our table took to mean we could apply it as such. Only to non-robot Constructs of course. Also, though you can turn a clockwork into a robot and vice versa a single Construct isn't allowed to have both subtypes at once.

[Coidzor]

Robots require technological Laboratories, even with the alternative Constructs by CR rules. Sadly tech labs are a tech artifact. There is a loophole, but it's cheesey. Requires creating a theoretical Simulacrum of an Animated Object of a Technological Laboratory. One supposes a Trompe L'oeil/Alter Ego of an Awakened Animated Object Technological Artifact could do as well.

Spoiler: Iron Gods AP Spoilers

Show

The danger here is that there are other tech artifacts are wholly inappropriate for any level of play. There's the stardrive for the main plotship, there's a mass extinction device, etc.

So yeah, just get your GM to waive the Tech Artifact status of the various technological laboratories instead. Will be much easier on everyone in the long run. Full disclosure, my GM left the Gravitic and Nanite labs on the artifact list so we'd have something to quest for at later levels though.

Edit: Another thing to note, the Robot Subtype reads like a template. Which our table took to mean we could apply it as such. Only to non-robot Constructs of course. Also, though you can turn a clockwork into a robot and vice versa a single Construct isn't allowed to have both subtypes at once.

Indeed, but I don't believe you need a Technological Laboratory if you're making a non-Robot version of a Robot, you're just making it as a magical construct instead of a technological one.

So you have three main classes of construct, Robot, Clockwork, and neither/miscellaneous.

I'm pretty sure I actually read somewhere about making Robot versions of non-Robot constructs when I was trawling through the PFSRD and Archive of Nethys learning about constructs initially, much like how you can make a Clockwork version of a miscellaneous construct in exchange for multiplying the cost and time to create it by 1.5x and also making it so that souls, demons, or elemental spirits aren't needed to actually make it.

I'd only actually looked at making Robot versions of Taxidermic creatures, though, given the limitations on being able to make them. Being able to make a Terraformer Robot as a non-Robot construct has some appeal to it, though, especially if one wants to make a moon base.

[unseenmage]

Indeed, but I don't believe you need a Technological Laboratory if you're making a non-Robot version of a Robot, you're just making it as a magical construct instead of a technological one.

So you have three main classes of construct, Robot, Clockwork, and neither/miscellaneous.

I'm pretty sure I actually read somewhere about making Robot versions of non-Robot constructs when I was trawling through the PFSRD and Archive of Nethys learning about constructs initially, much like how you can make a Clockwork version of a miscellaneous construct in exchange for multiplying the cost and time to create it by 1.5x and also making it so that souls, demons, or elemental spirits aren't needed to actually make it.

I'd only actually looked at making Robot versions of Taxidermic creatures, though, given the limitations on being able to make them. Being able to make a Terraformer Robot as a non-Robot construct has some appeal to it, though, especially if one wants to make a moon base.

Which to me begs the question, if we reverse engineer non-robot robots, do our now magical versions of robotic constructs loose the Int scores that all robots posess? Even if they do not loose the integrated weaponry (integrating weapons into constructs is doable without the subtype) do they lo0ose the power source for said weaponry and now have to rely on batteries?

I ask mainly because in pulling the demon type off of Frostfallen and Mummy Nabasu Demons we noticed that they lose all three of their languages as those languages were part of their subtype.

Spoiler: Me complaining. Feel free to disregard or read for entertainment.

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Things get real messy, and messy is where GM adjudication comes in. And that's a pain since we either find precedent (without cherry picking) or wrestle compromise (again while trying not to cherry pick). Ugh, sorry. Just irritated that PF copy pasted some of the worst things from 3.x while trying to reinvent the wheel with basic stuff like what does or doesn't qualify as a Special Quality. What's worse is it looks more like the reinvention was an omission rather than some intentional thing. And when pressed about it the devs repeat the same old mantra that everything they do is on purpose with intent and we just don't understand their vision. Ugh.

[Coidzor]

Which to me begs the question, if we reverse engineer non-robot robots, do our now magical versions of robotic constructs loose the Int scores that all robots posess? Even if they do not loose the integrated weaponry (integrating weapons into constructs is doable without the subtype) do they lo0ose the power source for said weaponry and now have to rely on batteries?

Yep. Every time I raised the question elsewhere, the answer was that Robots go mindless when made as regular old constructs, but no one cited any of the designers, and I'm loathe to dig up my account and post on the Paizo boards, since it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd actually even respond to, and instead just the kind of thing that people on the Paizo boards would heap verbal abuse on you for daring to ask.

I suspect that the discrepancy between constructs with CLs listed under "construction" but not in "requirements" and those which have it listed in both places is accidental, a case of sloppy writing/editing by Paizo, but it is an interesting distinction to call out. It is even defensible as a RAW distinction that makes the rule that says you can't ignore the CL requirement still have teeth while removing some of their bite.

Blood Golems are another interesting discrepancy. They list their CL as 7, but the requirement is listed as CL 12.

[Segev]

Yep. Every time I raised the question elsewhere, the answer was that Robots go mindless when made as regular old constructs, but no one cited any of the designers, and I'm loathe to dig up my account and post on the Paizo boards, since it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd actually even respond to, and instead just the kind of thing that people on the Paizo boards would heap verbal abuse on you for daring to ask.

Why would they heap abuse for asking? I assume there's a zeitgeist or culture there that has some underlying trend that motivates such things. What taboo or whatever would asking such a question violate to trigger such a response?

Blood Golems are another interesting discrepancy. They list their CL as 7, but the requirement is listed as CL 12.

That is both interesting and odd. If you assume it's intentional, it suggests they wanted an easy-to-make golem for 12th level casters. If you assume it's a typo, no real conclusions can be drawn - not even what the "right" CL is. (Maybe comparing to its CR?)

[unseenmage]

Yep. Every time I raised the question elsewhere, the answer was that Robots go mindless when made as regular old constructs, but no one cited any of the designers, and I'm loathe to dig up my account and post on the Paizo boards, since it doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd actually even respond to, and instead just the kind of thing that people on the Paizo boards would heap verbal abuse on you for daring to ask.

My only beef with the Paizo boards is the slowness. I get such much more prompt and thorough duscussion here. I rately need outsource for my queries.

And though I've never felt the lash of famboyism from their boards I have read many an instance of their devs denying any mistake and insisting, oft in the face of contrary evidence, that their mistakes were in point of fact not so.

Blood Golems are another interesting discrepancy. They list their CL as 7, but the requirement is listed as CL 12.

Can't one create Magic Items at a lower CL intentionally? Or is that another 3.X-ism floating up from the depths of memory?

[Coidzor]

Even if you take the CL listed in the construction details as a requirement, Ioun Wyrds have a CL 5 listed, so they'd also be available to 5th level casters regardless.

They're not mindless, so, that's something. Much more useful as familiars, admittedly.

Similarly, Broodiken are apparently Tiny, balloon-headed, goblin-like thingies that have a CL of 5. They're dumb, but also not mindless, so there's *something* that can be done with them, I'm just still not sure what.

Creating them is... confusing, though.

In some ways, I think that they expected most construct crafters to grab it around 7th level. That's when the first golems start opening up, anyway.

Spoiler: CL 7 constructs I know of offhand

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CL 7 things.

Blood Golem: CL 7, but CL 12 requirement. 8 HD

Carrion Golem: CL 7 requirement, 4 HD
Junk Golem: CL 7 requirement, 4 HD
Graven Guardian: CL 7 requirement, 6 HD

Cutlass Spider: Crafter's Gamble version: Has both a CL 7 requirement and a requirement for the caster to be 7th level. Has a permanent berserk chance risk, though, and can be taken over by an Intelligent Magic Item. 8 HD

Waxwork Vulpinal Agathion: CL 7, 7 HD, high-ish HD for a Small creature.
Trompe L'oeil Lillend Azata: CL 7, 7 HD, casts as a 7th level Bard, even if it isn't high HD for its size.

Homunculus: CL 7, 2 HD

Edit:

Can't one create Magic Items at a lower CL intentionally? Or is that another 3.X-ism floating up from the depths of memory?

I honestly don't know what the final CL of magic items made by PCs would even be. Unless it's a magic item that actually casts a spell like a command word item, spell-completion, or spell-trigger item. Or certain Continuous items where the CL determines the effects of the spell rather than just duration.

You can make a wand at any CL as long as that CL is high enough to cast that spell, for instance.

You can make a magical cloak that has a CL of 20 for its listed CL, even if one's own CL is only 5, so long as you can make the Spellcraft check to make it.

Why would they heap abuse for asking? I assume there's a zeitgeist or culture there that has some underlying trend that motivates such things. What taboo or whatever would asking such a question violate to trigger such a response?

That is both interesting and odd. If you assume it's intentional, it suggests they wanted an easy-to-make golem for 12th level casters. If you assume it's a typo, no real conclusions can be drawn - not even what the "right" CL is. (Maybe comparing to its CR?)

Google searching and lurking on those boards, I've seen a lot of threads where they're very mercurial about asking questions. Sometimes everyone is curious and other times it just leads to a big fight for no apparent reason. It's probably an overreaction on my part, but I'm very uncomfortable with their apparent culture and how I can't really figure out their taboos that well.

I didn't think to compare it to the CR. ...I can't actually even remember the CR and I was just looking it over. Kinda went on autopilot there.

[Segev]

The CR is 6, so a CL of 7 seems quite reasonable, unless you assume that half the level of the master is the appropriate place for a servitor that costs as much as a blood golem does.


As to ioun weirds, I saw them before, myself, but was baffled what made them worthwhile as familiars. Let alone improved familiars. They can incorporate a number of slotless items, effectively making them limited by slot. These slotless items tend to be amongst the most expensive items for their abilities out there. And if you spend a feat (Improved Familiar), you can get this creature to let you benefit from the powers of its incorporated items. Which you could do anyway if you just used the ioun stones you give to it for yourself.

What's the point? Why spend a feat on this, maybe more (if you're making it yourself)? To what use can it really be put that isn't better done without it?

[Jack_Simth]

The CR is 6, so a CL of 7 seems quite reasonable, unless you assume that half the level of the master is the appropriate place for a servitor that costs as much as a blood golem does.


As to ioun weirds, I saw them before, myself, but was baffled what made them worthwhile as familiars. Let alone improved familiars. They can incorporate a number of slotless items, effectively making them limited by slot. These slotless items tend to be amongst the most expensive items for their abilities out there. And if you spend a feat (Improved Familiar), you can get this creature to let you benefit from the powers of its incorporated items. Which you could do anyway if you just used the ioun stones you give to it for yourself.

What's the point? Why spend a feat on this, maybe more (if you're making it yourself)? To what use can it really be put that isn't better done without it?

Because you don't want to fast to implant the stones in yourself, but it's cheaper to guard a creature than it is a number of orbiting stones?

[Coidzor]

The CR is 6, so a CL of 7 seems quite reasonable, unless you assume that half the level of the master is the appropriate place for a servitor that costs as much as a blood golem does.


As to ioun weirds, I saw them before, myself, but was baffled what made them worthwhile as familiars. Let alone improved familiars. They can incorporate a number of slotless items, effectively making them limited by slot. These slotless items tend to be amongst the most expensive items for their abilities out there. And if you spend a feat (Improved Familiar), you can get this creature to let you benefit from the powers of its incorporated items. Which you could do anyway if you just used the ioun stones you give to it for yourself.

What's the point? Why spend a feat on this, maybe more (if you're making it yourself)? To what use can it really be put that isn't better done without it?

Well, if you have to wait until level 7 to make Homunculi, then if you want a tiny construct pet, the choice is either an Ioun Wyrd or trying to figure out how to make a Broodiken or hunting down a Broodiken, killing it, eating its heart, and then being pregnant and eating magic mud for a month before popping out a variable number of them. Ignoring Trompe L'oeil or making a mindless animated object or waxwork creature into an intelligent magic item.

Ultimately, though, they seem pointless unless one wants a lot of ioun stones without being able to feasibly implant them into one's self.

[unseenmage]

Not sure exactly how useful it is here but my group has had great fun with the 3rd party Amalgam and Monstrous Lycanthrope templates.

More Amalgam though. We just use a flat higher of the two CRs +3 adjustment unless the monsters stats are too outrageous. Then we recalculate as usual.

What's fun is that any creature Amalgam-ed with a Construct makes a resultant Construct. So long as one of the creatures is minless the Amalgam can be too. Which means Tattoo Guardian plus anythig equals a wearable, potentially mindless, and thus imminently commandable, anything.

Is super complex but it opens up a lot of options if you can get it allowed. That its balancing factor is the whole of the monster creation rules helps too.

Monstrous Lycanthrope however, is borked. One needs to toss its lack of balancing elements and just use its idea that anything can be a were anything else.
Even then its a hassle, the CRs are too high, and lycanthropic golems are a hard pill to swallow for many.

My apologies that neither of these is the lowest level fun. But we did have a blast with them so I figured they were worth a mention since I've actually gotten to play with them in a real live game.

[Coidzor]

Taxidermic Creature might be of interest, depending upon how the CL works out, but probably gets edged out by Waxwork Creature for cost, but it is CR based vs. HD based pricing, so there's probably a balance or tipping point.

I'd say the two most likely CLs are to base it on the HD or CR.

Edit: Akaruzugs are another oddity, but according to Archive of Nethys, they're unupdated 3.5 content. They have no listed minimum CL, but do require the spellcaster to be at least level 15.

Edit 2: Tribal Totems and their Greater Version are another example to take note of. Their listed CL is 8, but the CL requirement is 11. The Greater version has a listed CL of 9 but the requirement is CL 13.

[Segev]

Tribal totems are...weird. Expensive, but at the same time, their array of magical abilities are impressive. And nasty.

I'm trying to decide if there's a benefit to waxwork creatures over trompe l'oeil versions, and the best I'm coming up with is that waxworks don't require intelligent antecedents. I'm actually quite amused by a trompe l'oeil of a mimic. It's intelligent, so it can be done, but now you have a thing that can enter a painting as any sort of furniture you'd like.

[unseenmage]

Tribal totems are...weird. Expensive, but at the same time, their array of magical abilities are impressive. And nasty.

I'm trying to decide if there's a benefit to waxwork creatures over trompe l'oeil versions, and the best I'm coming up with is that waxworks don't require intelligent antecedents. I'm actually quite amused by a trompe l'oeil of a mimic. It's intelligent, so it can be done, but now you have a thing that can enter a painting as any sort of furniture you'd like.

Artificial Mimics have been amusimg me.for a while.

Doppelgangers are neat too as they can become any historical figure.

Both as Trompe L'oeil and they can haul around some extradimensional storage containing various paintings, Marvelous Pigments, etc.

Heck, with Marvelous Pigments an appropriately skilled Trompe L'oeil could even make paintings to hide in or paintings of useful.stuff almost on demand.

[Segev]

Artificial Mimics have been amusimg me.for a while.

Is there a thread discussing this, or would you like to make one? It sounds interesting, though unless it stays related to constructs I fear it goes beyond the scope of this thread. (I mean, I'd be happy to take this thread that direction, but then people who might be interested in the topic but not constructs might not see it.)

Doppelgangers are neat too as they can become any historical figure.

Also a good point. Though you'd have to be careful to paint the original in its native form, lest it accidentally be a trompe l'oeil of whoever it's imitating.

Both as Trompe L'oeil and they can haul around some extradimensional storage containing various paintings, Marvelous Pigments, etc.

Please elaborate on this! I'm not sure I follow, but it's intriguing in what it suggests

Heck, with Marvelous Pigments an appropriately skilled Trompe L'oeil could even make paintings to hide in or paintings of useful.stuff almost on demand.

I thought Marvelous Pigments only made things. What about them allows faster painting-creation? In part, I am interested because this might allow for faster creation of the base painting for a trompe l'oeil, itself.

[Coidzor]

Well, I suppose a framed painting is technically an object?

Tribal totems are...weird. Expensive, but at the same time, their array of magical abilities are impressive. And nasty.

I'm trying to decide if there's a benefit to waxwork creatures over trompe l'oeil versions, and the best I'm coming up with is that waxworks don't require intelligent antecedents. I'm actually quite amused by a trompe l'oeil of a mimic. It's intelligent, so it can be done, but now you have a thing that can enter a painting as any sort of furniture you'd like.

Aye. They're neat. I'm not sure if it's just the trawling I've been doing, but it almost seems like there are more weird constructs than non-weird ones, on the whole.

That Mimic idea is solid gold. Thank you.

[Segev]

Well, I suppose a framed painting is technically an object?

True... and the pigments can create anything up to 2000 gp in value. So, say, 4 500-gp paintings. Or 2 1000-gp paintings. Or 1 2000-gp painting.

2 days and 1000 gp to make the Marvelous Pigments. 10 minutes to make 1 Medium painting, 2 Small paintings, or 4 Tiny paintings.

Silly work-around, and goes for half-cost rather than 1/3-cost (the way mundane crafts would), but...charming. And significantly faster than actually painting them normally. Ironically, since in theory, you're painting with the Marvelous Pigments has to be as realistic as the final product, which is a trompe l'oeil and thus hyper-realistic.

Aye. They're neat. I'm not sure if it's just the trawling I've been doing, but it almost seems like there are more weird constructs than non-weird ones, on the whole.

Likely in part because they don't stand out much from the generic "animated object" if they aren't. I mean, even a stone golem and an animated stone statue are pretty darned similar if you consider only materials and appearance.

That Mimic idea is solid gold. Thank you.

And the mimic can even appear to be a solid gold object, if it wants (or you want it to)!

You're quite welcome; glad to be contributing useful ideas rather than just getting them from this thread.


Edit: Oh, wait. Marvelous Pigments are 4000 gp market value, and can only make up to 2000 gp of stuff. So the crafting cost is BREAKING EVEN on making the stuff. That's...pricey. You're paying double-market-value for the flexibility to decide what mundane items you need NOW. And you can't even paint voids. No pits, doors, windows, etc. Which would make it more worthwhile. (Well, not unless they're in the objects being made from nothing.)


(It took me forever to realize that the Robe of Many Objects' windows and doors could be inserted into existing walls and used to penetrate them.)

[unseenmage]

My apologies for not responding more promptly. Busy day has been busy.

Is there a thread discussing this, or would you like to make one? It sounds interesting, though unless it stays related to constructs I fear it goes beyond the scope of this thread. (I mean, I'd be happy to take this thread that direction, but then people who might be interested in the topic but not constructs might not see it.)

Clockwork Mimic thread I started a while back. The Clockwork Mimic statblock contained therein (towards the end) is a rough draft so to speak. Edit: D'oh! Nevermind i dropped that Clockwork Mimic rough draft in this thread.

I kinda want to play a Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego of a Doppelganger who has a pet Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego Mimic pet/Cohort. Maybe even a character who wears/uses nothing but Mimic equipment and lives in an enlarged mimic house.

Also a good point. Though you'd have to be careful to paint the original in its native form, lest it accidentally be a trompe l'oeil of whoever it's imitating.

I was thinking that the Doppelganger would be created as a Trompe L'oeil depicted in its native form. Then it can occupy paintings in nobles houses or castles etc and look like historical figures. Could run an adventure with a Trompe L'oeil Doppelganger "haunting" somewhere in the guise of some ancient lord.

Please elaborate on this! I'm not sure I follow, but it's intriguing in what it suggests

Since Trompe L'oeil can hide in any painting then carrying around paintings to hide in seems reasonable. And since cave wall mural style painting is included the Trompe L'oeil could even paint its own hiding places as it goes, time willing of course.
Shrink Item on some large boulders with murals painted on them or Fabricate to make paintings to hide in on the fly would seem like good ideas.

I thought Marvelous Pigments only made things. What about them allows faster painting-creation? In part, I am interested because this might allow for faster creation of the base painting for a trompe l'oeil, itself.

Marvelous Pigments would just be for the utility. The real gain would be in making mundane paintings of mundane objects that the Trompe L'oeil could then retrieve from the painting and use as though it were a real object.
The Trompe L'oeil's ability to retrieve and use objects depicted in paintings means one could, theoretically, make a painting of a bunch of mundane items with the M. Pigments, then the Trompe L'oeil can retrieve and use said items as if they were real.
Edit: I was wrong. Would be a cool ability to add to them though as a GM. Not sure what the CR bump would be though.

[Jack_Simth]

Marvelous Pigments would just be for the utility. The real gain would be in making mundane paintings of mundane objects that the Trompe L'oeil could then retrieve from the painting and use as though it were a real object.
The Trompe L'oeil's ability to retrieve and use objects depicted in paintings means one could, theoretically, make a painting of a bunch of mundane items with the M. Pigments, then the Trompe L'oeil can retrieve and use said items as if they were real.

Umm... where are you getting that a Trompe L'oeil can pull effectively real things out of 'normal' paintings? I see mention that they can manipulate things inside paintings temporarily (the example being picking a flower), but that they revert when the beastie leaves. That'd be a crazy-useful ability if true.

[unseenmage]

Umm... where are you getting that a Trompe L'oeil can pull effectively real things out of 'normal' paintings? I see mention that they can manipulate things inside paintings temporarily (the example being picking a flower), but that they revert when the beastie leaves. That'd be a crazy-useful ability if true.

Huh, my bad. I misremembered an IRL conversation about them. The other conversant was referring to the armor and weeapons a Trompe L'oeil can be depicted with.
My apologies.

On the other hand, it would be really useful. So I suggest using the Combining Magic Items rules to combine the Trompe L'oeil with some Marvelous Pigments. In fact, I'm so doing that with the next Migrus Locker I build. Is gonna be fantastically useful.

[Coidzor]

Likely in part because they don't stand out much from the generic "animated object" if they aren't. I mean, even a stone golem and an animated stone statue are pretty darned similar if you consider only materials and appearance.

Honestly, I suppose for a lot of uses, if Animated Objects were just a bit more customizable in terms of the number of HD you can give them based upon their size, and maybe ability scores too, that'd cover the majority of uses one would have for any kind of generic construct minions.

Or even if HD Modification didn't have that unfortunate cap on the number of HD you can add to a construct or had one that scaled based upon the master's HD.

Huh, my bad. I misremembered an IRL conversation about them. The other conversant was referring to the armor and weeapons a Trompe L'oeil can be depicted with.
My apologies.

On the other hand, it would be really useful. So I suggest using the Combining Magic Items rules to combine the Trompe L'oeil with some Marvelous Pigments. In fact, I'm so doing that with the next Migrus Locker I build. Is gonna be fantastically useful.

So... the Trompe L'oeil can basically use the marvelous pigments once and then is out, or are you applying some formula to make them renewable?

[Jack_Simth]

Huh, my bad. I misremembered an IRL conversation about them. The other conversant was referring to the armor and weeapons a Trompe L'oeil can be depicted with.
My apologies.

On the other hand, it would be really useful. So I suggest using the Combining Magic Items rules to combine the Trompe L'oeil with some Marvelous Pigments. In fact, I'm so doing that with the next Migrus Locker I build. Is gonna be fantastically useful.

So... a Trompe L'oeil that can make 2k in mundane items once (and can never do it again), or are you planning on making some assumptions and upgrade that to "make 2k in objects X/day" or somewhere in between? You're going to need DM cooperation, however you do it... and do keep in mind that 2,000 gp in mundane objects 1/day works out to a full suit of masterwork plate for sale.

Edit: Mind you, if you do not need the items to be permanent, then a Trompe L'oeil of a caster that can do Major Creation (sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner/unchained summoner 4, witch 5; Domain artifice 6; Subdomain flotsam 5; Elemental School metal 5, void 5) will do you. Marvelous Pigments are better, because A) It's always the same skill check, and B) they're real... but for most purposes, the spell will be OK.

Edit 2: Also, of course, "fantastically useful" should also mean "fantastically expensive" based on the "The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth" clause.

[Coidzor]

Turns out Wickerman (Wickermen?) are another example of listed CL and CL requirement not syncing up, having CL 14 listed but a CL 12 requirement.

I kinda want to play a Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego of a Doppelganger who has a pet Trompe L'oeil or Alter Ego Mimic pet/Cohort. Maybe even a character who wears/uses nothing but Mimic equipment and lives in an enlarged mimic house.


I was thinking that the Doppelganger would be created as a Trompe L'oeil depicted in its native form. Then it can occupy paintings in nobles houses or castles etc and look like historical figures. Could run an adventure with a Trompe L'oeil Doppelganger "haunting" somewhere in the guise of some ancient lord.


Since Trompe L'oeil can hide in any painting then carrying around paintings to hide in seems reasonable. And since cave wall mural style painting is included the Trompe L'oeil could even paint its own hiding places as it goes, time willing of course.
Shrink Item on some large boulders with murals painted on them or Fabricate to make paintings to hide in on the fly would seem like good ideas.

Nice ideas, all around.

True... and the pigments can create anything up to 2000 gp in value. So, say, 4 500-gp paintings. Or 2 1000-gp paintings. Or 1 2000-gp painting.

2 days and 1000 gp to make the Marvelous Pigments. 10 minutes to make 1 Medium painting, 2 Small paintings, or 4 Tiny paintings.

Silly work-around, and goes for half-cost rather than 1/3-cost (the way mundane crafts would), but...charming. And significantly faster than actually painting them normally. Ironically, since in theory, you're painting with the Marvelous Pigments has to be as realistic as the final product, which is a trompe l'oeil and thus hyper-realistic.

Still, it *is* significantly faster, especially if you have a mechanism for generating Magic Capital in sufficient quantity.

[Jack_Simth]

Still, it *is* significantly faster, especially if you have a mechanism for generating Magic Capital in sufficient quantity.

About the only time it'll be useful is when you can't cast the actual spells you'd otherwise need. Marvelous Pigments take (by default) 4 days to craft and a 5th level spell. Fabricate is a 5th level spell. Spellcraft lets you make Marvelous Pigments without having the spell, so if you don't have one of:

• Fabricate
• A suitable pre-existing painting
• The Masterwork Transformation spell and an otherwise-suitable non-masterwork painting

... then the Marvelous Pigments make sense. If you do have an item on the list, then the pigments are a wasted step.

[Segev]

Turns out Wickerman (Wickermen?) are another example of listed CL and CL requirement not syncing up, having CL 14 listed but a CL 12 requirement.

Why do I strongly suspect these are all just typos?

Nice ideas, all around.

What amuses me is that a Trompe L'oeil of a wizard with a familiar would come with a "free" Trompe L'oiel of that familiar, since it's a class feature. Or, if an Improved Familiar, a feat-feature. And like a real familiar, one could make further Trompe L'oeils of that familiar who would share their original's tie to the Trompe L'oiel wizard.

Still, it *is* significantly faster, especially if you have a mechanism for generating Magic Capital in sufficient quantity.

Faster, yes, but outside of custom items, you're probably better off just buying the things. Especially with the edit I realized, so you're paying full price if you craft the Pigments yourself, and double price if you buy them.

[unseenmage]

So... a Trompe L'oeil that can make 2k in mundane items once (and can never do it again), or are you planning on making some assumptions and upgrade that to "make 2k in objects X/day" or somewhere in between? You're going to need DM cooperation, however you do it... and do keep in mind that 2,000 gp in mundane objects 1/day works out to a full suit of masterwork plate for sale.

Either way is fine. I'm leaning towards the deplete-able version myself for balance reasons.

Turns out Wickerman (Wickermen?) are another example of listed CL and CL requirement not syncing up, having CL 14 listed but a CL 12 requirement.

At this point I wonder which is the norm. There are so many which do not conform. Are the exceptions outnumbering their counterpoint?

Nice ideas, all around.

Thank you.

[Jack_Simth]

Why do I strongly suspect these are all just typos?

What amuses me is that a Trompe L'oeil of a wizard with a familiar would come with a "free" Trompe L'oiel of that familiar, since it's a class feature. Or, if an Improved Familiar, a feat-feature. And like a real familiar, one could make further Trompe L'oeils of that familiar who would share their original's tie to the Trompe L'oiel wizard.

Faster, yes, but outside of custom items, you're probably better off just buying the things. Especially with the edit I realized, so you're paying full price if you craft the Pigments yourself, and double price if you buy them.

Yes. But if you craft the pigments yourself, you don't need to wait for a mundane craftsman to make the picture you actually want the hard way. I suppose you could hire a Wizard to Fabricate it... of course, the Wizard needs to have a +10 modifier in the appropriate craft skill. Yes, that can be done with spells and their reasonably native Int (Elite Array 15, +2 Racial, +2 level up makes an Int of 19 before items; cast Fox's Cunning for +4 Enhancement for 23 - a +6 modifier - and then toss Crafter's Fortune on top for a +5 and the Wizard-9 can Take Ten to get the standard DC 20 for a masterwork item)... but when that 2k market picture costs 667 gp materials, 9×10×5 gp for the Fabricate, 9×2×10 gp for Fox's Cunning, and 9x1x10 gp for the Crafter's Fortune... you're shelling out 1387 gp to buy it magically... assuming the Wizard doesn't just charge you the market price for the result, instead. Short of casting Fabricate, there's actually very little that'll save you the coin.

[Segev]

I'll have to look it up to see if it's applicable to constructs, but a Pseudonatural Trompe L'oeil which literally painted itself into existence (Pseudonatural gives it the narrative excuse for that impossibility) could be interesting.

[Segev]

Yes. But if you craft the pigments yourself, you don't need to wait for a mundane craftsman to make the picture you actually want the hard way. I suppose you could hire a Wizard to Fabricate it... of course, the Wizard needs to have a +10 modifier in the appropriate craft skill. Yes, that can be done with spells and their reasonably native Int (Elite Array 15, +2 Racial, +2 level up makes an Int of 19 before items; cast Fox's Cunning for +4 Enhancement for 23 - a +6 modifier - and then toss Crafter's Fortune on top for a +5 and the Wizard-9 can Take Ten to get the standard DC 20 for a masterwork item)... but when that 2k market picture costs 667 gp materials, 9×10×5 gp for the Fabricate, 9×2×10 gp for Fox's Cunning, and 9x1x10 gp for the Crafter's Fortune... you're shelling out 1387 gp to buy it magically... assuming the Wizard doesn't just charge you the market price for the result, instead. Short of casting Fabricate, there's actually very little that'll save you the coin.

Yeah, which is disappointing. Especially since, even when you can cast fabricate, there's something less satisfying about waving your hands and having the painting print itself out than having it genuinely be a work of your own hands. But holy cow, the crafting rules are unforgiving.