Craft Construct requires CL 5 - is it useful at that level?

[unseenmage]

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Evil Geniuses, eh? What were you going for, Liches, or more like Fiends?

Aberrations and space monsters mostly. But Robot Ghosts, Clockwork Vampires, and Tattoo Guardian Wraiths were discussed.

Undead Amalgam Constructs are like LotR eagles, they solve ALL of the problems.

That said, I told my GM I wouldn't Amalgam to any Undead for that particular character unless it was a fall from grace type thing (for a TN android even ).

[Segev]

Is there a need for Amalgamating things with Constructs when you can just make a Trompe L'oeil of it instead?

I was thinking about enter image and waxworks, but I think you couldn't use it to see from even a waxwork of yourself because it isn't an object - it's a creature. So if you wanted to abuse enter image, you'd need to have your minions carrying around little paintings of you, or figurines, or something. Animated objects that bear your likeness would not even work, unless they bore it on an object not a part of themselves.

[unseenmage]

Is there a need for Amalgamating things with Constructs when you can just make a Trompe L'oeil of it instead?

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Not really, but I didn't know about Trompe L'oeil then and Trompe L'oeil doesnt let you have unintelligent or low intelligence Constructs.

That and for our games Trompe L'oeil and Alter Ego are probably going to be banned unless we can work out some way they don't just roflstomp the gameworld.

[Segev]

Not really, but I didn't know about Trompe L'oeil then and Trompe L'oeil doesnt let you have unintelligent or low intelligence Constructs.

Low-intelligence is fine. The only requirement is having an intelligence score.

That and for our games Trompe L'oeil and Alter Ego are probably going to be banned unless we can work out some way they don't just roflstomp the gameworld.

Step 1 for even approaching balance of a Trompe L'oeil, I think, would be requiring that the necessary painting have the original posing for the portrait. This at least limits it to those you can get to cooperate (or capture).

Now, that doesn't really fix the problem; it just limits things from having the crafting of arbitrary things just because they can be imagined.

A complicated way to do it would be to try to price every ability so that more powerful Trompe L'oeils cost more to make. To some degree, the CR-based cost might be helpful, if only because (PC class level +1)^2 is going to be faster-growing than (PC class level) linear. But yeah, used as flat-out adventuring minions, they get out of hand fast.

[Coidzor]

Now here's one that might be a typo. Tiberolith.

Listed CL is 12, CL requirement is 11.

[Segev]

I'm having trouble picturing a Tiberolith. What is it?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm having trouble picturing a Tiberolith. What is it?

I'm picturing four rectangular slabs of stone tied together, shuffling around against each other to move.

[unseenmage]

I'm having trouble picturing a Tiberolith. What is it?

I'm picturing four rectangular slabs of stone tied together, shuffling around against each other to move.

You got me curious so I checked. Looks like this apparently.

On the way I got an eyeful of the Skinstitched construct. It is primarily made of face-skin. Whole faces worth. Ew.

[Segev]

Hey! Skinstitched are almost affordable! And the 8th CL is not in the requirements section, if we go with the "only if it's in the reqs section is it actually unskippable" rule.

[Coidzor]

Hey! Skinstitched are almost affordable! And the 8th CL is not in the requirements section, if we go with the "only if it's in the reqs section is it actually unskippable" rule.

Just remember to save plenty of gobbo faces!

Edit: Actually, IIRC, I was briefly considering the Skinstitched as having potential before I discovered Soulbound Mannequins and started my cataloging project.

Edit 2 and a Question: In the price by CR for constructs rules, is there anything discussing how to set the CL for the Spellcraft DC to make them? I've looked several times, but maybe this is like the time I completely missed how NPC class levels can be retrained into PC ones faster than PC levels into different PC levels in the retraining rules.

Edit 3: Angelic Guardians have a listed CL of 9 and a CL requirement of 10.

Juggernauts have CL of 13 and a CL requirement of 10.

Living Walls have CL 12 and a CL requirement of 8.

Sentinel Huts have CL 10 and seem to have no minimum CL requirement.

Edit 4: Wait. Skinstitches seem to have a CL 10th requirement and a listed CL of 8.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh. A Waxwork Creature makes for VERY good Construct Armor. You have to destroy the armor before you can hurt the wearer, and a waxwork creature only gets Staggered when reduced to 0 HP due to the Waxwork Regeneration. Downside: Fire is pretty much the most common form of energy damage in the game. But then... if you're 5th, get Extend Spell and cast Resist Energy (Fire) and/or Protection From Energy (Fire) on the beast at all times.

Edit: Better: You make an Intelligent Waxwork Creature, make a Trompe L'oeil of that, and when making the Trompe L'oeil, you turn it into Construct Armor. Then if someone does burn it , you get it back in 2d4 days provided you kept the painting.

[unseenmage]

...

Edit 2 and a Question: In the price by CR for constructs rules, is there anything discussing how to set the CL for the Spellcraft DC to make them? I've looked several times, but maybe this is like the time I completely missed how NPC class levels can be retrained into PC ones faster than PC levels into different PC levels in the retraining rules.

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Building and Modifying Constructs says,
"The DC to craft a construct is 5 + the default caster level of the construct, just like for a magic item."

Magic Item Creation says,
"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

So, the default CL for an item is dependent on the spells contained therein.

When no spells are listed as requirements the default minimum CL would by necessity have to be based on when the creator has access to Craft Construct.

All of which is why my group houseruled that any spell listed in the Construct's statblock is a requisite spell; excepting spell lists for Constructs with spellcasting as so many requirements makes the Spellcraft DC almost impossibly high.

[Segev]

All of which is why my group houseruled that any spell listed in the Construct's statblock is a requisite spell; excepting spell lists for Constructs with spellcasting as so many requirements makes the Spellcraft DC almost impossibly high.

Not if you have the spells. Or have assistants with the spells.

[Morphic tide]

Not if you have the spells. Or have assistants with the spells.

CoDzilla strikes again! Because they fill literally all of the spells know requirements that exist on the Cleric or Druid list.

[Segev]

CoDzilla strikes again! Because they fill literally all of the spells know requirements that exist on the Cleric or Druid list.

Just make sure to have 'em all prepped, and you're good to go!



As an interesting side problem, if you wanted to craft a weapon (e.g. a heavy crossbow) into an Animated Object, and you wanted it to be Small sized, not Tiny, as a creature, would it be a weapon for a Large, Huge, or Gargantuan creature?

[unseenmage]

Not if you have the spells. Or have assistants with the spells.

Was running an Alchemist who built Constructs at the time so I never had the spells.

[Segev]

Was running an Alchemist who built Constructs at the time so I never had the spells.

Then assistants are helpful.

On an epic-level 3.5 character, I once made a magic item which used wish as its basis, but skirted the hefty XP cost because all it did was provide an item crafter with spell access to any spell of 8th level or lower for purposes of crafting.

He turned around and abused this for staff-creation, backed by the Master Staff epic feat, mind, but it's a useful item even without going cheesy. (It was epic; I didn't feel it was overly cheesy for epic levels to use it that way.)

[unseenmage]

...

As an interesting side problem, if you wanted to craft a weapon (e.g. a heavy crossbow) into an Animated Object, and you wanted it to be Small sized, not Tiny, as a creature, would it be a weapon for a Large, Huge, or Gargantuan creature?

... ... Yes.

More seriously, a Medium creature's dagger is Tiny, a longsword Small, a greatsword is Medium IIRC.

But that's all guesstimation and the creature sizes are not precise.

[Coidzor]

I'd say a crossbow was more along the lines of one size smaller than the intended wielder unless it's an exotic Great Crossbow or whathaveyou.

[Segev]

I'd say a crossbow was more along the lines of one size smaller than the intended wielder unless it's an exotic Great Crossbow or whathaveyou.

Huh, really? So you'd put a heavy crossbow for a Medium creature as a Small animated object? I wouldn't think it'd be quite as big as, say, a Halfling or a gnome. Am I misjudging?

[unseenmage]

Huh, really? So you'd put a heavy crossbow for a Medium creature as a Small animated object? I wouldn't think it'd be quite as big as, say, a Halfling or a gnome. Am I misjudging?

Aren't heavy crossbows the ones you have to reload using both hands and your foot? On end they can stand almost as tall as a person IIRC.

Tiny is housecat sized. Small is between that and adult Human sized. Remember the size category has less to do with volume and mass and more to do with combat space effectively occupied.

That said, squeezing is a thing. A thing that more closely correlates to a creature's volume, though even squeezing allies can pass by each other almost effortlessly.

[Segev]

Fair enough. I just hadn't really thought of anything a human might wield as a weapon being Halfling-sized. But...I suppose it's feasible.

That means a Small Animated Object Heavy Crossbow (sized for a Medium creature) would have 3 HD and thus a +3 BAB, 12 Dex (for +1 to hit), and could have +1 HD (because you can add up to half the base HD, per the modifying constructs rules). Give it no movement rate at all for -3 CP, and it's 1350 gp market value (350 of that being the MW crossbow itself). +4 BAB for 4 HD, +1 Dex mod, +1 MW bonus... +6 to hit.

Give it an unseen servant dedicated to holding it aloft and keeping it loaded and it can even fire once per round!

Of course, a 3 sp/day warrior hireling with a 1 sp/day caddy can do much the same. Fewer hp, and only +1 to hit due to the MW crossbow you gave him (maybe +2 if you argue that you can find 12-dex warriors). Less accurate, but over 2000 days of active duty pay for the same price as MAKING the animated crossbow (let alone buying it).



Though, if you go by the CR pricing rather than the alternate HD+CP pricing, the net -2 CP from the additional HD and the removed movement speed drops it to CR 1, for a market price of 500 gp. 250 gp to craft. Now we're down to only 500 days to break even vs. hiring a warrior crossbowman and a peasant caddy to reload for him. Still have to provide the unseen servant, but you're a spellcaster. I'm sure you can manage.

[Coidzor]

That's pretty neat.

While going through another batch of listing CL requirements in my catalog, I noticed that Robot Golems require CL 13 but have the item's CL as 14.

[unseenmage]

Crazy idea... Robot Trompe L'oeil. Occupies digital.screens instead of oil paintings.

Made me wonder though; What if an Artificial Intelligence took over a Robot Trompe L'oeil? When the thing is slain does the AI rejuvenate with the host robot or do they both do their own thing when they die?

Added silliness, they're both copies of the same NPC! ^{*dramatic music and hand waving*}

[Segev]

Added silliness, they're both copies of the same NPC! ^{*dramatic music and hand waving*}

Well, with AIs, that almost makes sense. Assuming AI can be executed entirely in software, making copies of it is quite feasible.

[unseenmage]

Well, with AIs, that almost makes sense. Assuming AI can be executed entirely in software, making copies of it is quite feasible.

AIs are also Constructs and can be made via the Price by CR rules. Especially as Aggregates.

Also, IIRC theres a tech artifact that copies minds as AIs. Makes them insane though.

[Coidzor]

Just need a way to debug them, then.

Or focus their insanity.

[unseenmage]

Just need a way to debug them, then.

Or focus their insanity.

We custom researched a PF version of 3.X Programmed Amnesia as a tech robot debug item.

[Coidzor]

That sounds about right, then.

Found some more discrepancy constructs, two(ish) of which can be made starting at 5th level/CL 5.

Necrophidius has CL 10, and a requirement of CL 7.

Lesser Necrophidius has CL 6, and a requirement of CL 5. So they can be made right off the bat.

The Iron Cobra variants, unlike 3.5, don't seem to have CL requirements, which makes it much easier to build them sooner, though they still become irrelevant very quickly even so, just given their piddly number of HD. Just CL 7 for all the various materials.

Edit: And I think I have just finished cataloging just about every construct except for alter egos and AIs.

Also, I get the strangest feeling that someone forgot that Iron Cobras and their variants only have 1 HD and have no mechanism by which more HD may be added.

[Segev]

Also, I get the strangest feeling that someone forgot that Iron Cobras and their variants only have 1 HD and have no mechanism by which more HD may be added.

Other than how pricey they can be, what makes you say that? (Or is that it?)