Kraagor Theory

[ClearSight]

Hi guys!
This is the first time I post something; I just had a theory about the order of the Scribble and what tore them apart.
What if Kraagor was pretty horrible but had a slow change of heart, sort of like Belkar? Someone in this forum already proposed that Belkar might get eaten by the Snarl. What if Kraagor sacrificied himself by being devoured by the Snarl, but the Paladin Soon was never able to accept it as a good act? Serini and Girard (Elan and Haley proxies) who were more chaotic valued his sacrifice and it ultimately tore them apart.
Penny for your thoughts?
Sorry if this has already been discussed before.

[TheNecrocomicon]

I wouldn't be surprised if that did happen, considering Serini's early recollections in her diary showed her disliking Kraagor, and then later on she was mourning his death probably the most out of all the Scribblers and she decided to build her stronghold in his honour and on his principles.

Something must have happened, whether particular or gradual, to cause that change in attitude over a career spent securing the Rifts around the world.

[Snails]

My explanation is that Soon's Tale as told by Shojo is accurate. But the same basic facts have different possible interpretations. Soon ordered the Rift closed, when both he and Kraagor could potentially have been trapped because they both were very close to the Rift. Kraagor was trapped. Soon was not.

I imagine the conversation afterwards went roughly like this:

Girard: Soon, you idiot, you got Kraagor killed.
Soon: I mourn for my beloved brother in arms.
Girard: His death is your fault.
Soon: We both fought to save the world.
Girard: Shut up with the greater good crap. You should not have ordered the Rift closed until Kraagor was clear.
Soon: Kraagor and I were fighting side by side. We both understood the risk. Do you think that Kraagor would complain about the arrangement?
Girard: Of course, not. But Kraagor is a brave dumb fool, and you took advantage of his foolish bravery to race to complete your holy mission. As a Paladin you were more likely to jump clear in time as the Rift closed [Soon's Reflex saving throw is better than Kraagor's, due to Paladin bonuses]. The risk was not fairly shared. That Kraagor may not see it that way does not matter to his friends. We owe it to him to not take advantage of his generosity. What was the hurry?!?
Soon: This last one the was hardest. The Snarl was fighting harder than ever to keep the Rift open. Kraagor and I both felt the fury because we were up close. If we did not close the Rift quickly, the Snarl might have torn it further open.
Kraagor: Maybe. But it would have been worth a little bit of extra risk to save Kraagor.
Soon: Risk the entire world for one man?
Kraagor: It is not the entire world that you care about. You just need revenge for your wife's death, so much that you do not care about the living.
Soon: <Soon draws his sword at the insult to his honor>

The Scribble Tale can be found here, for your reference.

[Jasdoif]

....
Kraagor: Maybe. But it would have been worth a little bit of extra risk to save Kraagor.
Soon: Risk the entire world for one man?
Kraagor: It is not the entire world that you care about. You just need revenge for your wife's death, so much that you do not care about the living.
Soon: <Soon draws his sword at the insult to his honor>

...are those typos, or did Girard (the illusionist) take on the appearance of Kraagor for added spite emphasis?

[atemu1234]

My explanation is that Soon's Tale as told by Shojo is accurate. But the same basic facts have different possible interpretations. Soon ordered the Rift closed, when both he and Kraagor could potentially have been trapped because they both were very close to the Rift. Kraagor was trapped. Soon was not.

I imagine the conversation afterwards went roughly like this:

Girard: Soon, you idiot, you got Kraagor killed.
Soon: I mourn for my beloved brother in arms.
Girard: His death is your fault.
Soon: We both fought to save the world.
Girard: Shut up with the greater good crap. You should not have ordered the Rift closed until Kraagor was clear.
Soon: Kraagor and I were fighting side by side. We both understood the risk. Do you think that Kraagor would complain about the arrangement?
Girard: Of course, not. But Kraagor is a brave dumb fool, and you took advantage of his foolish bravery to race to complete your holy mission. As a Paladin you were more likely to jump clear in time as the Rift closed [Soon's Reflex saving throw is better than Kraagor's, due to Paladin bonuses]. The risk was not fairly shared. That Kraagor may not see it that way does not matter to his friends. We owe it to him to not take advantage of his generosity. What was the hurry?!?
Soon: This last one the was hardest. The Snarl was fighting harder than ever to keep the Rift open. Kraagor and I both felt the fury because we were up close. If we did not close the Rift quickly, the Snarl might have torn it further open.
Kraagor: Maybe. But it would have been worth a little bit of extra risk to save Kraagor.
Soon: Risk the entire world for one man?
Kraagor: It is not the entire world that you care about. You just need revenge for your wife's death, so much that you do not care about the living.
Soon: <Soon draws his sword at the insult to his honor>

The Scribble Tale can be found here, for your reference.

Even if this isn't exactly what happened, this analysis seems pretty in-character (ignoring late-night typos)

[hroþila]

Yeah, it's in character, but it has a weakness in my opinion: it puts Soon squarely in the right, and Girard squarely in the wrong. I don't think that's what it'll turn out to have happened.

[martianmister]

What if Kraagor was pretty horrible but had a slow change of heart, sort of like Belkar? Someone in this forum already proposed that Belkar might get eaten by the Snarl. What if Kraagor sacrificied himself by being devoured by the Snarl, but the Paladin Soon was never able to accept it as a good act?

Someone like Soon would never work with someone like Belkar.

[Kish]

Rich did explicitly comment, long ago, that Roy could never take a paladin level because it would prevent him from being able to keep Belkar in the party.

Yeah, it's in character, but it has a weakness in my opinion: it puts Soon squarely in the right, and Girard squarely in the wrong. I don't think that's what it'll turn out to have happened.

Does it? I think it's at least arguable that Girard is right in Snails' scenario--that one extra round, or even just part of a round while Dorukan and Lirian delay until Soon and Kraagor have used their actions to withdraw, would not have significantly endangered the world. Or even that the world being torn apart and rebuilt, with everyone on it going to the afterlife (presumably the gods were watching, as Loki indicated they'll be watching to see what happens with Kraagor's Gate now if the vote doesn't result in the world's destruction) would have been preferable to Kraagor's soul being obliterated (though that one doesn't really work if the dwarves would all have been enslaved to Hel then).

[Morquard]

Yes, I think 3.5 and previous rules were very strict about Paladins not teaming up with Evil people, even for the greater good, or they'd pretty much immediately fall.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(though that one doesn't really work if the dwarves would all have been enslaved to Hel then).

Which they would have, I think - it feels like the pact between Hel and Thor dates to the recreation of the world.

Which raises an interesting point: if Dorukan and Lirian had delayed, causing the Snarl to win and the world to be destroyed, Kraagor might still have been snagged out of Hel's clutches because he had died in a fight.

So you can say that Soon was weighing all dwarves' afterlives against Kraagor's (and his). It's not a decision I'd want to make, but on the balance, it was probably the right one.

Now, it is likely that they could have safely delayed and got Kraaogor out... but he was a dwarven berserker. Not sure how you'd get him to pull back from a fight.

Grey Wolf

[ClearSight]

Someone like Soon would never work with someone like Belkar.

Rich did explicitly comment, long ago, that Roy could never take a paladin level because it would prevent him from being able to keep Belkar in the party.

Thanks for clearing that up! :-) I was wrong.