OOTS #1066 - The Discussion Thread

[redzimmer]

I'm just sad that this strip has legitimized "salty" as meaning anything unrelated to salt.

23 Skidoo!

[Peelee]

I'm just sad that this strip has legitimized "salty" as meaning anything unrelated to salt.

So the dictionary hadn't done already?

[Xyril]

Back to topic.
If Andi were truly such a great leader as some people believe, she would be barking the right orders so that the Mechane steers out of the mess; and ignoring all distractions.

I understand that you're pointing out how extreme certain folks have been, but I would feel slight sympathy for Andi if she showed that she were even a minimal competent leader. As in someone who would be barking any orders at all instead of standing there indecisively as they hurtle towards a mountain. Or someone who, having just made a decision that she was uncertain about literally up until the last second, would immediately look towards seeing what the consequences of her decision were and readying herself to deal with those consequences, rather than patting herself on the back for guessing right.

So far, Andi has managed to slide so comfortably under that low bar that she's actually impressed me for all the wrong reasons.

[Kish]

I think Onyavar's point is, rather, that "barking the right orders so that the Mechane steers out of this mess, and ignoring all distractions" is exactly what Bandana was doing before one of those distractions rose above the level where it could be ignored by hitting her with a wrench.

[8BitNinja]

I'm just sad that this strip has legitimized "salty" as meaning anything unrelated to salt.

23 Skidoo!

No, it's been like that for a while.

From Etymonline: salty (adj.)
U.S. slang sense of "angry, irritated" is first attested 1938 (probably from similar use with regard to sailors, "tough, aggressive," attested by 1920), especially in phrase jump salty "to unexpectedly become enraged." Related: Saltily.

[The Eye]

Wow, I had always thought Andi looked younger than Bandana.

[Knaight]

I'd say that the fact that eight year-old Beatrix has not eaten her dinner and left the plate on the floor where it spilled, has messed up the laid-out clothes on the bed, has spilled a drink, is refusing to go to bed, and is playing with a sword and rabbit, means that Andi's babysitting was anything but fine. And then she passively-aggressively moans about it to to Bandana's mum, saying that Beatrix was so much trouble she couldn't get her important homework done. In other words, Andi had to devote so much attention to babysitting Beatrix that she wasn't able to do anything else, and still failed to persuade little B to behave. Either that, or Andi deliberately neglected her babysitting duties to try and do her homework, and the only reason the cabin isn't on fire is because she finally stopped trying and paid attention to what she was supposed to be doing.

So,yeah, "narcissistic teenage babysitter" is pretty accurate. As is "incompetent self-centred whiny twerp".

Yeah, because "I'm so sorry, I hope Beatrix wasn't too much trouble for you" is so suggestive of her being an easy kid, who could only causes problems because of bad babysitting. Please.

[Aeson]

I'm just sad that this strip has legitimized "salty" as meaning anything unrelated to salt.

No, it's been like that for a while.

From Etymonline: salty (adj.)
U.S. slang sense of "angry, irritated" is first attested 1938 (probably from similar use with regard to sailors, "tough, aggressive," attested by 1920), especially in phrase jump salty "to unexpectedly become enraged." Related: Saltily.

For whatever it's worth, words for "salt" having meanings beyond just the literal goes back far further than the 1930s. The Latin word for salt (sal, salis) can also mean good taste, elegance, wit, humor, sarcasm, or wisecracks, and was used as "wit, humor" in Catullus XIII, which was written in the first century BC.

[8BitNinja]

For whatever it's worth, words for "salt" having meanings beyond just the literal goes back far further than the 1930s. The Latin word for salt (sal, salis) can also mean good taste, elegance, wit, humor, sarcasm, or wisecracks, and was used as "wit, humor" in Catullus XIII, which was written in the first century BC.

Not to mention the word "salary"

[AvatarVecna]

Not to mention the word "salary"

Which relates to the origin of the phrase "worth their salt".

[pendell]

I don't think this has anythign to do with Andi being an engineer. Well... very little. Nor her lack of social skills.

There are at least two characters in strip with worse social skills than Andi: Durkon and Vaarsuvius. Especially in the beginning and the prequels, Durkon was a silent grumbler whom no one in previous adventuring parties liked. Roy was the first human he could stand. And I suspect Roy is considerably younger than Durkon.

Same with Vaarsuvius; Vaarsuvius is at least a century older than Roy, but he's only recently learned to treat those around him, such as his familiar, as something approaching reasonable. Yet V never had cause to hit his leader in the back of the head with a wrench, or give him a paper with explosive ruins. This despite the fact Vaarsuvius might be contemporary with Roy's grandfather.

No, Andi's issue doesn't stem from poor social skills. Andi's issue is because she has a lack of respect for Bandanna as a superior officer, and that's a moral failing. It's not something that comes from being an engineer, from having a STEM background, or from anything but the contempt she nurtures.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

I'm also (at least technically) an engineer, and I don't see the "this is insulting engineers" argument at all.

You could say it's insulting mutineers, but really, it's only insulting narcissists--something Rich has demonstrated himself many times willing and eager to do. If the "if it doesn't work, hit it with a wrench" thing was anything more than a glib joke, it's showcasing how ridiculously egocentric Andi is: her job makes her super-qualified at everyone (because it's her job, not because that belief is somehow an engineering stereotype) and a captain who won't listen to her is an "it" who needs to be literally beaten into compliance.

[The_Weirdo]

There seems to be a misconception here over whether or not we should defend Bandana's behavior as a kid.

It doesn't matter. Plain and simple.

Andi could have been the Second Coming of Mary Poppins or the Lesser Deity of Abusive Babysitters.

Bandana could have been the sweetest kid ever to grace the world or the Lesser Deity of the Terrible Twos.

It's been ages ago. Bandana did not know better than to BE A CHILD back then (what with her being a child). Andromeda either accepted the babysitting job for some cash (and the risk was very much hers to take) believing she could pull it off and failed or did so and succeeded. We can't know from one panel. And, above all, IT DOES NOT MATTER.

What's going on right now is Andi is using that memory to literally justify treating her captain like an eight-year-old, some fifteen years or more later, using that approach as grounds for a narcissistic narrative of "why I should be captain instead of the captain".

And that is insane.

There is no other word for it.

That is insane.

[Mandor]

In 2004, having been with the company for 8 years, I helped train a new hire who was my boss 8 years after that.
At no point did I (or do I) begrudge him the fact that he's on the management track and I'm on the technical track.

I know my personality strengths and weaknesses. The Spin is not strong with me, and while I'm very good at what I do, and while I'm good with my co-workers and with my product, I can be short tempered when I think someone is being completely unreasonable, even if that someone is a customer. Therefore, I know I'm better at being a behind-the-scenes technical person, and not one of the faces presented to customers. He is good at that. It's entirely logical and reasonable for him to be in charge. I'm just glad to have a few people in management who will listen to me if I pull them aside and privately tell them something is a bad idea. They will occasionally say "I know. But ... this time... it has to happen. It's a fight we can't win. So let's just work with it.", but nobody gets their way all the time.

[The_Weirdo]

In 2004, having been with the company for 8 years, I helped train a new hire who was my boss 8 years after that.
At no point did I (or do I) begrudge him the fact that he's on the management track and I'm on the technical track.

Note that you never said you never hit him on the head with a wrench.

[Xyril]

Take the phrase "narcissistic teenage babysitter we see in the flashback" one (or more, if other people have posted) post up. There's basically nothing to suggest that her babysitting was anything but fine, but that slips in as an assumed phrase regardless.

Was riding quote trees and realized that I missed this comment directed at me.

First, you're mistaken. Nothing I said implies that Andi was bad at babysitting, and if you're reading that between the lines, it's only because you're bringing that to the table, not me.

Second, I threw in the narcissistic because, as someone who recalls being a teenager, I generally regard narcissism as something that tends to get worse in the teenage years, and for the vast majority of people, tends to fade away in adulthood. Andi's current narcissism is pretty well supported by the story. I made the assumption that Andi followed a typical life path and became less narcissistic (or at the very least, didn't get any worse) in the years between babysitting Bandana and hitting her from behind with a wrench.

If you're pointing out the possibility that Andi may, in fact, have been a perfectly reasonable teenager, and only became this petty, raging narcissist in the intervening years, I readily concede that possibility. In fact, I think it's plausible that her comment about trigonometry homework was said sincerely, and not passive-aggressively. However, if this is the case, the Giant would have to present some very compelling backstory to explain the sudden, downward personality shift from kind-hearted but exasperated teenage babysitter Andi to the current, evolved version.

Really, the only thing I regret about my comment is that a reasonable person might interpret my comment as reinforcing stereotypes about all teenagers being narcissistic. For that, I apologize to any of the many teenagers who don't fit that stereotype. Also, even if you are the stereotypical self-centered teenager, it's generally harmless and fairly understandable for where you are in life. To you guys, I apologize for the implicit comparison to Andi.

Yeah, because "I'm so sorry, I hope Beatrix wasn't too much trouble for you" is so suggestive of her being an easy kid, who could only causes problems because of bad babysitting. Please.

No, Bandana probably wasn't the easiest kid. But that doesn't matter on both levels. As others have pointed out, it doesn't matter at all in the current situation. It also doesn't matter when it comes to somehow edifying young Andi. Many Andi defenders have argued that Bandana's essentially at fault for not dealing with Andi, because the Captain's job is the deal with crew members, even unreasonable ones. These defenders would have to agree (but instead, I imagine they'll remain conspicuously silent) that a babysitter's job is to handle her kid, even if that kid is rambunctious and unruly and disobedient, and by their own reasoning, teenage Andi's at fault for failing the job she agreed to take.

[The_Weirdo]

Out of slightly morbid curiosity...

Can we reasonably call Andi capital-N, psychological-disorder Narcissist?

[Kish]

No. If she was that, she would either have behaved like this when Julio was around, or somehow reframed everything that was going on so that she (not Julio) was actually the star, which would never have worked with Julio's leadership approach; he openly said things like "let's get back to talking about me" in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, and has never on-panel discussed any of his orders or leadership decisions with any of the crew.

Actually, Julio is closer to seeming like someone with a (particularly benign manifestation of) NPD than Andi.

[The_Weirdo]

No. If she was that, she would either have behaved like this when Julio was around, or somehow reframed everything that was going on so that she (not Julio) was actually the star, which would never have worked with Julio's leadership approach; he openly said things like "let's get back to talking about me" in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, and has never on-panel discussed any of his orders or leadership decisions with any of the crew.

Actually, Julio is closer to seeming like someone with a (particularly benign manifestation of) NPD than Andi.

To be sure, that seems more like joke than actual NPD... But yeah. I do admit I've been looking into it for fairly personal reasons re:someone else in RL.

[Xyril]

No. If she was that, she would either have behaved like this when Julio was around, or somehow reframed everything that was going on so that she (not Julio) was actually the star

Not necessarily the case. If we're willing to accept accept that there's any merit at all to the argument that if Bandanna were a competent captain, she would have found a way to handle Andi, then we also have to accept the implicit assumption that there is, in fact, a way to handle Andi. My first instinct is that Julio doesn't have the subtlety or the ruthlessness or the patience to manipulate a crew member in that way for so long, but I know it's possible to essentially trick someone like the person I think Andi is into hiding this particular flaw from people who aren't probing too hard. I've seen it done. It's quite possible that Julio fed Andi a narrative where Julio's the dashing face of the ship, but Andi's the one he trusts to be the heart of the ship, and that Andi was happy with that until Julio failed to leave his trusted right hand Andi in charge.

However, I think it's likely that you're right. Andi's probably got a strong natural tendency to be self-absorbed, but her behavior probably only starts to look pathological in situations where she feels like she's under attack, which explains why she got much worse when the ship was under attack and turned away from what I had hoped would be a moment of clarity and regret about hitting Bandanna once the other crew members started calling her out. Unfortunate, her lack of self-awareness and emotional maturity meant that she's probably felt under attack since the moment Julio left someone else in charge.

Actually, Julio is closer to seeming like someone with a (particularly benign manifestation of) NPD than Andi.

That's a good point, and it goes back to the debate about Andi's so-called engineer lack of social skills. Julio has the advantage of not having particularly destructive impulses stemming from his narcissism, and having enough charisma that people are not only willing, but apparently fairly happy, to go along with it.

[Kish]

Not necessarily the case. If we're willing to accept accept that there's any merit at all to the argument that if Bandanna were a competent captain, she would have found a way to handle Andi,

Just for the record, while I certainly mean no offense to you: I'm not.

That argument is downright goofy. It amounts to "I can't defend Andi's actions, but I can say they're actually Bandana's fault, and thus Bandana is in the wrong anyway."

(I'm sure Julio could trick her, but honestly, I doubt he'd try. My impression is that he surrounds himself with supporting cast who are prepared to accept being supporting cast as long as they're part of Julio's story. It does occur to me that I see no in-story reason to reject the idea of Julio seducing Andi, and obviously not Bandana, who is a lesbian*; that could imply that Andi is actually angry that Julio's choice of captain in his absence, without even discussing it with her, revealed that she was a fling rather than the Hero's Love Interest and co-star she thought she was. But I don't expect Rich to go there.)

*Established as a lesbian, not bisexual, by Word of the Author.

[The_Weirdo]

Just for the record, while I certainly mean no offense to you: I'm not.

That argument is downright goofy. It amounts to "I can't defend Andi's actions, but I can say they're actually Bandana's fault, and thus Bandana is in the wrong anyway."

Not to mention Bandana didn't have to do or say anything to get Andi all pissy; she only had to be chosen for captain while also being sorta younger than Andi: ALL of the things Bandana did and ordered were probably done and ordered by Julio at some point.

[F.Harr]

And here I thought our heroes had named her Bandana.

:)

Beatrix Secundus was a cute kid. No wonder Julio liked her.

[Xyril]

Just for the record, while I certainly mean no offense to you: I'm not.

That argument is downright goofy. It amounts to "I can't defend Andi's actions, but I can say they're actually Bandana's fault, and thus Bandana is in the wrong anyway."

No offense taken; I agree with you completely on that last bit. Perhaps unlike you, I am trying hard to see some reasonableness in the "Bandanna could have done something" part, because I am trying so very hard not to completely dismiss the Andi die-hards, and frankly that's one of the only arguments with any reasonableness.

It does occur to me that I see no in-story reason to reject the idea of Julio seducing Andi, and obviously not Bandana, who is a lesbian*; that could imply that Andi is actually angry that Julio's choice of captain in his absence, without even discussing it with her, revealed that she was a fling rather than the Hero's Love Interest and co-star she thought she was. But I don't expect Rich to go there.)

I really hope he doesn't go there. Considering the reaction from the engineers who think Andi is an offensive engineer stereotype, things might get ugly if she becomes the offensive scorned-woman stereotype.

[The_Weirdo]

I really hope he doesn't go there. Considering the reaction from the engineers who think Andi is an offensive engineer stereotype, things might get ugly if she becomes the offensive scorned-woman stereotype.

At this point, I'm pretty sure Andi's an offensive petty-narcissist-mutineer-with-a-severe-case-of-the-stupids-and-an-ageist-chip-on-her-shoulder-that-risks-the-lives-of-others-for-her-ego stereotype.

But it's okay, I'm not offended.

[ti'esar]

And here I thought our heroes had named her Bandana.

:)

Beatrix Secundus was a cute kid. No wonder Julio liked her.

Given that her father translates as "Faithful Second", I had no trouble believing that Bandana was her given name.

[Rogerborg]

Yay, more dull pointless irrelevant backstory for the dull pointless irrelevant NPCs.

This might work better (i.e. be less dull, pointless and irrelevant) as a spin off.

[martianmister]

Yay, more dull pointless irrelevant backstory for the dull pointless irrelevant NPCs.

This might work better (i.e. be less dull, pointless and irrelevant) as a spin off.

But what if one of them replace Belkar?

[TeCoolMage]

andi pls

I wonder why they're fleshing out the mechane crew so late into the story, maybe they'll be an important thing later on

[DeliaP]

andi pls

I wonder why they're fleshing out the mechane crew so late into the story, maybe they'll be an important thing later on

Maybe it's the same sort of reason we got to know Thanh and Niu, and other recognisable members of the Azure City Resistance? The crushing of the resistance by Redcloak was still a very emotive storyline for me, even if it did only involve dull pointless irrelevant NPC's as it involved characters with personalities and a history, who happened to not be members of OotS.

So when we finally get to see the crew of the crashed Mechane reduced to cannibalism to get out of the mountains, and it's all down to Bandana and Andi, fighting over who gets to gnaw the scraps off Felix's bones, then it'll have so much more resonance thanks to this sequence. You'll see!