Overwatch: Boop!

[Lord_Burch]

So I got Mei's "block damage with an ice wall" achievement... By blocking the door as soon as the enemy team tried to leave.
Like, what kind of attacks were they using for it to soak up so much?

Rein hammer? I've done it in the past, and those big, sweeping blows will hit 3 or 4 of your segments at a time.

[Brandles]

mei is actual cancer, but sometimes it's fun to be cancer

[Velaryon]

So I got Mei's "block damage with an ice wall" achievement... By blocking the door as soon as the enemy team tried to leave.
Like, what kind of attacks were they using for it to soak up so much?

Most likely it was several characters just firing into the wall constantly. The only ones I can think of that might be able to do it by themselves are Reinhardt hammering away and hitting multiple segments, Bastion in sentry mode, or maybe D.Va if she's point blank and just keeps firing, and even then I'm not sure if she could do it.

[The_Jackal]

Most likely it was several characters just firing into the wall constantly. The only ones I can think of that might be able to do it by themselves are Reinhardt hammering away and hitting multiple segments, Bastion in sentry mode, or maybe D.Va if she's point blank and just keeps firing, and even then I'm not sure if she could do it.

Reaper, Roadhog, Reinhardt, Soldier, D.va. Lots of heroes can spam out immense damage at close range.

[Togath]

Just, but how many can do it in the first 2-3 seconds of a fight?(and... why? 0_o Like, Mei's ice wall doesn't last long enough to destroy it, from what I've usually seen)

[Lord_Burch]

Just, but how many can do it in the first 2-3 seconds of a fight?(and... why? 0_o Like, Mei's ice wall doesn't last long enough to destroy it, from what I've usually seen)

Frustration, in my experience. Also, it contributes to your damage score, for purposes of medals and such.

[The_Jackal]

Just, but how many can do it in the first 2-3 seconds of a fight?(and... why? 0_o Like, Mei's ice wall doesn't last long enough to destroy it, from what I've usually seen)

Just more than one enemy laying into the wall. The Mei wall lasts 4.5 seconds. Reaper alone can do 1,120 damage by unloading his shotguns in that timeframe. Soldier76 can dump a mag and helix for 620. D.va can do ~600 with her fusion cannons. It doesn't take much. That's why it's so frustrating to me how many players in low ranked games don't shoot barriers. Breaking them is idiotically easy.

[Togath]

Taking time to break one also means time not spent just going around them in many cases. If you're spending 4 seconds standing in place and firing at the wall, the wall is doing EXACTLY what it's intended to. While going around or waiting is generally expected to be the counter as far as I know(sure there are exceptions, like the spawn door thing, but still).

[Rising Phoenix]

Taking time to break one also means time not spent just going around them in many cases. If you're spending 4 seconds standing in place and firing at the wall, the wall is doing EXACTLY what it's intended to. While going around or waiting is generally expected to be the counter as far as I know(sure there are exceptions, like the spawn door thing, but still).

This is generally true. Unless you have a bastion. Bastion melts the wall in less than 4 seconds.

[Togath]

This is generally true. Unless you have a bastion. Bastion melts the wall in less than 4 seconds.

Heh, true. Bastion melts... pretty much anything that gets too close.(I did have an amusing time with a genji who got stuck behind me recently)

[The_Jackal]

Taking time to break one also means time not spent just going around them in many cases. If you're spending 4 seconds standing in place and firing at the wall, the wall is doing EXACTLY what it's intended to. While going around or waiting is generally expected to be the counter as far as I know(sure there are exceptions, like the spawn door thing, but still).

You can't flank anyone in four seconds. I don't care what map you're on, Numbani, Hollywood, it doesn't matter. Also, if you're splitting up and trying to hit an enemy tank from different directions, you're almost CERTAIN to be defeated in detail, as the defending team can just gang up on part of your team, then turn back to kick the other part off the point. Also, when you're talking about Reinhardt, you HAVE to break the shield. The only question is if Rein is dumb and charges into death, or his team is dumb and runs in front of the shield. Against a team with a brain, though, you have no choice. Break the shield or lose when they break yours.

Obviously you don't want to shoot a shield when you can kill an enemy instead, but if you're holding your fire for someone to give you clear shot, you're wasting your firepower. The shot that's never fired can never do damage.

Heh, true. Bastion melts... pretty much anything that gets too close.(I did have an amusing time with a genji who got stuck behind me recently)

Killing Bastion is pretty easy, just pick anyone who's got the ability to fire without losing damage over range. I've popped Bastions with Mercy's blaster. You can also dumpster him up close with any number of Heroes, just by being evasive. The best bastions keep repositioning to keep the enemy guessing.

[Togath]

King of the Kill maps tend to have very few chokepoints though. And open areas are, well, open too.
Basically, if the Mei only uses icewalls for mobility and chokepoints and you have someone good at breaking them, then go ahead. But if the Mei's mostly using them to disrupt line of fire or block an attack it's likely better to just go around.
Also Mei can be really good at countering several ults with timely use of her wall, so that's been fun to play around with~

[Velaryon]

Reaper, Roadhog, Reinhardt, Soldier, D.va. Lots of heroes can spam out immense damage at close range.

Most of them can't break Mei's wall by themselves. Sure, they can all dish out decent damage, but not fast enough. Especially Roadhog, having to reload after only 4 shots. By the time he's done that the wall is probably gone anyway.

[Avilan the Grey]

So, opinions on Orisa? I have never played her, but it seemed her kit can be useful. I have only played two matches since she was released and both of those had players knowing how to use her. Guess I was lucky, judging by the Internet firestorm.
Rein will probably be a more popular pick still, though

[Togath]

She's very strong if used right. Her shield has a very long duration, and can be used like Winston's, where you cna change which side of it you are on and still block shots. Her high damage and range is good as well(though her shots are slightly slow at range).
Buuut all that requires the team to actually work together and stick together. Especially her ult.

[chainer1216]

as a Rein player, i'll tell you right now that she will not replace rein, her shield is weakish and small, and more importantly, she is just too dang squishy.


that said she does have her place, solo queue tanking with her in QP will be WAY better than solo tanking as Rein, and in a more competitive sense i can see her being really good on Def on 2CP maps, especially when paired with Bastion and/or Junkrat.

a lot of people say she works really well WITH a Reinhardt, but i don't see it, that's a lot of damage potential taken away from a team. i think she'd pair much better with D.Va or Winston, they dive snipers/high ground people, which Orisa is extremely susceptible to, then come back to the team to help defend, kinda alternating shields/DM.

[Togath]

Even as a casual player, I can say she seems to work well with stuff like Winston or D.Va(or in arcade, a second Orisa).

[Silverraptor]

It's funny when I play Orisa and their's a Bastion on my team that sets up far back to overlook the point. I drop the shield in front of him and suddenly he's the original beta Bastion with the shield!

[The_Jackal]

Most of them can't break Mei's wall by themselves. Sure, they can all dish out decent damage, but not fast enough. Especially Roadhog, having to reload after only 4 shots. By the time he's done that the wall is probably gone anyway.

Okay we're talking past each other. I'm talking about other barriers. Not Mei's wall. You're right, with only 4.5 second duration, and 500 hit points per segment, you're better off just going around in most circumstances. I'm referring to OTHER barriers, Reinhardt, Orisa, Winston, where they do last longer, and cover more area.

So, opinions on Orisa? I have never played her, but it seemed her kit can be useful. I have only played two matches since she was released and both of those had players knowing how to use her. Guess I was lucky, judging by the Internet firestorm.
Rein will probably be a more popular pick still, though

She's inadequate, in her current state. She's got low hit points, low mobility, a HUGE hitbox, and a weak defensive kit. Her one really strong move is Halt, which can be used, like Pharah or Lucio, to produce some ledge kills. Her chain gun damage is respectable, she does 144 DPS, but similar to Sombra, it has accuracy issues at medium range and up. Great for abrading barriers and zoning, she can struggle to hit reliably outside close range. Her ultimate is great, but without a good weapon, she'll struggle to charge it regularly. She's best used in maps where you're able to pour fire down a few chokepoints at long range, and really, REALLY struggles to deal with flankers. Ultimately, her lack of direct durability is what hurts her the most, she's simply not capable of standing on an objective and holding it. I've had the most success with her hanging back and pouring fire into the enemy, but that puts her in the role of a kind of defense/artillery Hero, like a hybrid of Symmetra and Bastion. I don't expect her to see any serious play at high SR, and certainly not in tournaments.

[Morphic tide]

One minor thing that may or may not work for Orisa: Using Halt to drop Rein shields for a moment, allowing some damage to be dealt "through" the shield.

[Lost Demiurge]

I use Orisa as a breacher tank. She's good at helping your team through chokepoints. When there aren't so many chokepoints around, she's a good generalist and fire support.

Hell, she's good at helping your team, period. The shield's a portable butt-saver when your buddies get in a tight spot, her machinegun is good suppressing fire, and jumping in front of some nasty damage with her 4-second damage reduction can mean life or death.

That said, she's bad solo, so if your team doesn't cooperate she's kind of pointless.

Though I do love getting Rein-charged, and hitting the "Nope, ain't moving" button. They always act so SURPRISED... that'll probably fade as people get used to her, but for now it's funny.

[Velaryon]

Okay we're talking past each other. I'm talking about other barriers. Not Mei's wall. You're right, with only 4.5 second duration, and 500 hit points per segment, you're better off just going around in most circumstances. I'm referring to OTHER barriers, Reinhardt, Orisa, Winston, where they do last longer, and cover more area.

Well sure, other barriers you have to deal with, especially Reinhardt's. Winston's barrier you might as well shoot at because it'll pop very quickly. Orisa's really depends on placement. Most people aren't good enough with her yet where they place the barriers in a really effective spot, so depending on that you may be able to just go around. It it's protecting a well-positioned Bastion or something, then you definitely want to break it down if you can.

I was under the impression that the topic was specifically Mei's wall, which is often not worth bothering with unless you absolutely have to.

Though I do love getting Rein-charged, and hitting the "Nope, ain't moving" button. They always act so SURPRISED... that'll probably fade as people get used to her, but for now it's funny.

I've yet to try this, but it sounds fun. Do you have to engage it before he hits you?

[Lost Demiurge]

I've yet to try this, but it sounds fun. Do you have to engage it before he hits you?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Only got to try it like 2-3 times, and one of those times we hit the wall and I got crunked before I could hit the button.

[The_Jackal]

Honestly, I'm not sure. Only got to try it like 2-3 times, and one of those times we hit the wall and I got crunked before I could hit the button.

Yes, you do need to use fortify BEFORE Reinhardt hits you with his charge. You can't use any abilities while caught in a charge, you can only scream in terror as you await your fate. I haven't tested it to be sure, but I'd be amazed if you could use fortify to break a stun, as opposed to prevent it. In any case, your odds of getting charged by Rein are pretty low, IMO. He's slow enough that you'll see him coming, and big enough that he'll be using his barrier to keep you from gunning him down. The one thing I'll say for Orisa is her gun is pretty good for maintaining pressure on an enemy Reinhardt. You've got 1800 damage in that gun-arm, which is nearly enought to take down the rectangle solo.

[Avilan the Grey]

I love when you manage to break someone's something. It feels so skillful

Easiest, for me, is the secondary fire for Lucio; if you hit Rein before he connects with you you both are thrown backwards. Almost like if you were Junkrat and used a mine. Of course technically it's more beneficial most of the time to sidestep him and shoot him in the back.
I also "enjoy" being charged when I play Zarya; not only does she survive it, but if you bubble just before he connects you still get pushed back (AFAIR) but you get a hell of a boost.
It is also my experience that a lot of Rein players kinda freak out if you don't bubble until after he slams you into a wall; I think a lot of them forget you don't have that shield for more than two seconds (and you are at about 50% health after the charge). They tend to leave and seek other prey if you're still standing as Zaria and manages to get your bubble up.

[The_Jackal]

I love when you manage to break someone's something. It feels so skillful

Easiest, for me, is the secondary fire for Lucio; if you hit Rein before he connects with you you both are thrown backwards. Almost like if you were Junkrat and used a mine. Of course technically it's more beneficial most of the time to sidestep him and shoot him in the back.
I also "enjoy" being charged when I play Zarya; not only does she survive it, but if you bubble just before he connects you still get pushed back (AFAIR) but you get a hell of a boost.
It is also my experience that a lot of Rein players kinda freak out if you don't bubble until after he slams you into a wall; I think a lot of them forget you don't have that shield for more than two seconds (and you are at about 50% health after the charge). They tend to leave and seek other prey if you're still standing as Zaria and manages to get your bubble up.

I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the risk and reward of various characters. There's Heroes that have very low-risk, high reward abilities (Lucio/Pharah Boop, Genji reflect, Mei Freeze, Roadhog Hook) that are on a very short cooldown (if any), and then there's abilities that either don't have as high of rewards, or have far higher risk (McCree Flashbang, Reinhardt Charge, Widow Hook) that have very LONG cooldown. I know you don't balance abilities, you balance heroes and their entire kit, in the full context of the game, but still lots of weaker heroes have abilities that lack impact and are inexplicably on a long cooldown.

Take Genji's dash versus McCree's roll. Both have an 8 second cooldown, but roll does no damage, Genji does 50 damage. Roll won't get you out of Graviton, Dash will. Roll can only be used in contact with the ground. Dash can be used anywhere, in any direction, even straight up.

[Velaryon]

I feel like there's a huge disconnect between the risk and reward of various characters. There's Heroes that have very low-risk, high reward abilities (Lucio/Pharah Boop, Genji reflect, Mei Freeze, Roadhog Hook) that are on a very short cooldown (if any), and then there's abilities that either don't have as high of rewards, or have far higher risk (McCree Flashbang, Reinhardt Charge, Widow Hook) that have very LONG cooldown. I know you don't balance abilities, you balance heroes and their entire kit, in the full context of the game, but still lots of weaker heroes have abilities that lack impact and are inexplicably on a long cooldown.

Take Genji's dash versus McCree's roll. Both have an 8 second cooldown, but roll does no damage, Genji does 50 damage. Roll won't get you out of Graviton, Dash will. Roll can only be used in contact with the ground. Dash can be used anywhere, in any direction, even straight up.

And the dash also resets immediately if Genji gets a kill.

Pharah's boop missile (I forget what it's actually called) is of extremely situational use though. It does no damage, so if there isn't a pit to boop someone into, you're mostly just inconveniencing them for a moment. That can be useful to take a Reinhardt out of position or something, and Pharah can use it to move herself around, but it's not as consistently "high reward" as many other abilities that you listed.

And poor Widowmaker should have both of her abilities reworked. She may be fine on PC (I wouldn't know), but she's trash tier on consoles and always has been. The cooldown on her hook is ridiculously long, her venom mine is pretty underwhelming, and she's easily the most difficult character to get good with on console.

[The_Jackal]

And the dash also resets immediately if Genji gets a kill.

Exactly. Now to be fair, Genji has some drawbacks compared to McCree for all that mobility, but I think the evidence is pretty stark, when you look at pick rates, the professional meta, and overall win rates in competitive.

Pharah's boop missile (I forget what it's actually called) is of extremely situational use though. It does no damage, so if there isn't a pit to boop someone into, you're mostly just inconveniencing them for a moment. That can be useful to take a Reinhardt out of position or something, and Pharah can use it to move herself around, but it's not as consistently "high reward" as many other abilities that you listed.

I'll grant you that Pharah's boop is map-dependent, but it's not THAT map dependent, and there's definitely maps where the boops are HUGELY powerful. Illios and Li'jiang are Lucio/Pharah heaven, and I wouldn't be so salty if there were a map set where someone like McCree or Widow fared comparably well.

And poor Widowmaker should have both of her abilities reworked. She may be fine on PC (I wouldn't know), but she's trash tier on consoles and always has been. The cooldown on her hook is ridiculously long, her venom mine is pretty underwhelming, and she's easily the most difficult character to get good with on console.

She's basically dumpster tier on PC as well, even at the competitive level. Streamers like Kephrii can play her to show off, but when they go into tournaments, she goes all but unpicked. While I don't want to see her return to her alpha state of body-shotting Zenyatta and Tracer, she definitely needs more mobility and evasiveness returned to her kit. Spitballing, I'd like to see Venom Mine have a CC effect, instead of damage. I'd also just assume see Widow's hook and mine cooldowns lowered.

[Togath]

Widowmaker doesn't even seem very good to a not very skilled casual player like myself. Like, I've even tried playing her... but her lack of mobility compared to Hanzo, and lack of other useful abilities compared to Ana(or even Mei) makes her seem... neither especially fun OR strong. Which is not a good place for a character to be(then again, I prefer non-scoped snipers in games anyway).

[The_Jackal]

Widowmaker doesn't even seem very good to a not very skilled casual player like myself. Like, I've even tried playing her... but her lack of mobility compared to Hanzo, and lack of other useful abilities compared to Ana(or even Mei) makes her seem... neither especially fun OR strong. Which is not a good place for a character to be(then again, I prefer non-scoped snipers in games anyway).

She can be dangerous in the hands of a player with very good mechanical aim. Very dangerous. But she's got virtually NO ability to survive against flankers, and with Flankers like Winston, D.va, Genji and Tracer being common, she's going to have problems.