Overwatch: Boop!

[cobaltstarfire]

Does it take longer for D.Va to bring up her matrix or something? I saw someone activate her ult mid hook (which was pretty hilarious even if my team was on the receiving end of that), and have personally pushed him away before he could shoot me with Lucio's push back on numerous occasions. (also have activated Orisas armor such as to not too terribly hurt by being hooked). Or does D.vas defense matrix just not work at that close a range?

[Geno9999]

Does it take longer for D.Va to bring up her matrix or something? I saw someone activate her ult mid hook (which was pretty hilarious even if my team was on the receiving end of that), and have personally pushed him away before he could shoot me with Lucio's push back on numerous occasions. (also have activated Orisas armor such as to not too terribly hurt by being hooked). Or does D.vas defense matrix just not work at that close a range?

D.va's Defense Matrix has a slight delay from holding the button to it going up (like less than half a second,) but still enough that it's not faster than Roadhog being able to follow up with his Scrap Gun, and that's not accounting for the server delay. Being able to activate ult mid hook though isn't too far out if you remember that D.va can still activate her ult while the Mech is in it's Death throes, and the hook itself deals damage.

IMO, D.va's strength is as an enforcer and guardian, countering mobile enemies, wrecking barriers, and pouncing on snipers. Got a Genji diving your healers or DPS? Cover your teammates with Matrix and your buddies have 10 seconds to fire unanswered. Got a Pharah harassing your formation? You can flash matrix to absorb every other rocket. Got a Widow or Hanzo pecking at your team from a place of safety? Boost up there and gun them down. See an enemy at low health running for safety? Boost in, ram and then melee for a quick 55 damage finisher.

All of this +1! Personally, I like D.va because she is flexible enough to fit in with different team compositions.

[Velaryon]

To be fair Mei, doesn't have counters per say as she's designed to win 1v1s. You counter mei by swarming her by 2v1 in her and by not letting her stall.

Mei, like other heroes but perhaps a little more so, is best engaged with a numbers advantage. That said, anyone who can get away quickly (Tracer, Genji) or who can prevent themselves from being frozen (Zarya, Reaper, maybe Orisa) will have a good chance against her. She can also be engaged from long range - sure, her icicle shots have sniper precision, but she's only a B+ character when it comes to sniping and should be at a disadvantage long range vs. a good Widow or Hanzo.

Anyways, rant aside, had a decent night tonight, used Tolbjorn fairly effectively in my last match of the night, ended up on fire twice, and had 2 or 3 triple kills and quite a few double's, which was really nice. Didn't even have someone to shield my turrets, just had to hide in corners and repair them as much as possible. Other then that, I really need to learn to be more sneaky with D.Va's ultimate. I didn't kill more then one person with my ultimate out of like 5 or 6 ultimate uses.

On a plus side, I learned that Zarya apparently has an Ultimate Combo with Pharah, since Zarya's ultimate is a gravity well kinda thing that draws everyone in and doesn't let them move, making them extremely easy pickings for Pharah's ultimate.

As was suggested, boosting into the air before activating self-destruct makes it harder for opponents to know where it's coming from, and therefore harder to figure out where safe cover is. Other than that, it's often well used as a zoning ult to clear off the objective for a moment, similar to Mei's Blizzard.

And Zarya's ultimate combos quite well with a lot of ults, not just Pharah. It works just as well with Reaper, Hanzo, D.Va, Genji, or Tracer, and reasonably well with most other damage-dealing ults as well. Graviton Surge is commonly considered one of if not the best ult in the game for exactly this reason.

[Spore]

I've recognized the first loss of a team due to commitment issues and hero picks today. We were defending Point B on Temple of Anubis and the e nemies would have a hayday with a decent Death Blossom Reaper. But their Reaper constantly switched effectively robbing him of 2 Ults and allowing my shaky Soldier 76 gameplay to persevere.

[The_Jackal]

I've recognized the first loss of a team due to commitment issues and hero picks today. We were defending Point B on Temple of Anubis and the e nemies would have a hayday with a decent Death Blossom Reaper. But their Reaper constantly switched effectively robbing him of 2 Ults and allowing my shaky Soldier 76 gameplay to persevere.

I expect he kept switching because he was frustrated by the poke meta that dominates most Anubis 2 standoffs. The biggest problem on that map and Volskaya is getting the entire team to come up and actually bring pressure.

[Spore]

I expect he kept switching because he was frustrated by the poke meta that dominates most Anubis 2 standoffs. The biggest problem on that map and Volskaya is getting the entire team to come up and actually bring pressure.

I play what I expect to be Bronze League. Our shaky defense consisted of a 900 HP Orisa shield and a Bastion firing down (and not even aiming). A single good D. Va/Riptire could've killed us.

[Starwulf]

Things have started to click for me in the last two nights, partially from advice gained on here, partially from just playing, but I'm suddenly doing waaaayy better, so much so that my buddy even commented that he was surprised at how well I was doing, which is high praise from him. I've gotten PotG multiple times in the last few times, including a quint kill with my D.Va Ult, and a triple Kill that from the same that I'm even more proud of. Still don't know all the names of the map, but it was a control point one(the control point is on the edge of an ocean-side cliff, buildings all around), and the enemy had control of the point. I knew I could wipe them out in a sneak attack, but it would be a suicide attack. I jumped up, flew across a chasm, activated my ult, fell to my death and took out all 3 guys that were sitting on the point. It was so awesome everyone was actually talking about it after watching it :).

D.Va, Pharah and Soldier are rapidly becoming my primaries, though I'm pretty decent with Bastion/Tolbjorn, and have picked up Lucio amazingly well. I was pretty much a D.Va's bane today during a Mayhem match, every time she went to Ult I activated Lucio's ultimate and she wouldn't kill ANYONE, it was hilarious. My whole team commented on it at the end, which was pretty encouraging.

I had 3 triple kills, and several double kills in a single match while on Attack in Kings Row as Soldier, and that time was without my buddy(he sat out so he could eat), basically wiped out their entire team at the end with my ult(a triple kill, with just long enough of a pause after to not register as a quad and then quint kill) to finish the match and get the win. I was on fire from almost the start of the match until the end, was pretty awesome :)

[Togath]

I just managed to get a triple kill during a random heroes watch as well...
Have a look.

[Morty]

There's nothing quite like having every game in a given day turn into complete obliteration of your team. It's like we didn't deal any damage at all. I certainly didn't, even with Zarya's weapon charged up.

I also really wish I knew how to play Mei. It's easy with McCree, who is the other hero I want to play but can't - I'm just bad at aiming. With Mei, I just can't do anything other than create ice walls. Trying to engage kills me.

[The_Jackal]

[QUOTE=Morty;22084574]There's nothing quite like having every game in a given day turn into complete obliteration of your team. It's like we didn't deal any damage at all. I certainly didn't, even with Zarya's weapon charged up.

I had a pretty good day today, but yeah, I've had those runs as well. Nobody can get anything done, and you just keep running face-first into competent Winstons and Reinhardts who will stall your team while your own guys get shredded. Zarya is arguably one of the most difficult and complex characters to play, so don't feel bad about not getting the most out of her. Your job isn't bringing damage, it's making timely use of your bubbles to save your teammates.

I also really wish I knew how to play Mei. It's easy with McCree, who is the other hero I want to play but can't - I'm just bad at aiming. With Mei, I just can't do anything other than create ice walls. Trying to engage kills me.

Mei's right-click is, IMO, one of the hardest abilities to aim in the entire game. Because there's a projectile, plus a delay between clicking and firing, she's really terribly hard to get consistent with. That said, my best advice is this: Don't try to aim with her, so much as keep your cursor pointed where you want the icicle to go at all times, and keep the trigger held down. The idea here is that you stop worrying so much about timing your shots, and only worry about keeping your aim on point.

It sounds like you might be having problems with your FPS aim fundamentals, though. A lot of it is just practice and muscle memory, so don't feel bad about being bad. Everyone who ever got good at this game had lots of time being bad, and if you're dedicated and keep practicing, you WILL improve. Here's some solid advice which will help you get better faster:

1) Some people will suggest to drill reaction time with web games. This is worthless advice. Aim in FPS games has very little to do with reaction time. Yes, it helps, but most of the reactions that you see from professional gamers are courtesy of experience and anticipation, NOT raw reflexes. That's not to say that raw reflexes won't help, but the truth is, you won't profoundly improve your in-game reaction time by training out of game.

2) Most of good aim is simply about using good crosshair placement. You'll see lots of players using things like flick-shots to make effective shots, and while that definitely is something good FPS players learn to do, it's NOT good for building strong fundamentals. Instead, focus on keeping your crosshair aimed where your enemy is going to be ALL THE TIME. What I mean here is that when you move down a hallway with nothing in it, keep your crosshair aimed such that if someone where to jump around the corner, they'd already be immediately under your crosshair.

3) Make sure your sensitivity is low. Don't go so low you can't turn, but a good rule of thumb is to be able to make your Hero turn 360 degrees with 12" of mouse movement. The key to low sensitivity is that it will make getting fine adjustments to your aim much easier. If your sensitivity is too high, you'll always be dealing with oversteer, and will struggle to hit anything not directly in front of you. A corollary to this is to make sure your mouse surface is clear in a wide area. Don't use a mouse pad, get a good optical mouse, and work directly off the table-top. Bad ergonomics will kill your aim.

4) If you want to practice in a less stressful environment, take McCree into a custom game with headshot-only mode turned on, versus 6 Ana bots. It's an okay drill, far better than the practice range. But honestly, even that will teach your bad habits, so my best advice is to just play the game. Don't worry about your rank, and turn off voice coms if your teammates get toxic, just keep practicing.

[Mutazoia]

[QUOTE=The_Jackal;22085179]

2) Most of good aim is simply about using good crosshair placement. You'll see lots of players using things like flick-shots to make effective shots, and while that definitely is something good FPS players learn to do, it's NOT good for building strong fundamentals. Instead, focus on keeping your crosshair aimed where your enemy is going to be ALL THE TIME. What I mean here is that when you move down a hallway with nothing in it, keep your crosshair aimed such that if someone where to jump around the corner, they'd already be immediately under your crosshair.

Also, don't forget to lead your target. Even at extreme close range, your shots take time to travel, so if you are keeping your reticle on your enemy, they are going to be gone by the time your shot get's there. You'll have to get use to how much lead you have to give your targets...less lead the closer they are (obviously). So if your playing Orisa, and Genji charges in and is sprinting circles around you, aim slightly ahead of him, for example. Pretty much the only time you don't need to lead your target is if you are at point blank, or right on top of them (such as right after Roadhog hooks a hapless victim), or if the are standing still (turreted Bastion or a scoped Widowmaker).

[Starwulf]

Didn't play for too long tonight, buddy wasn't on again, but I did play three matches, 2 of them wins, and I ended up getting PoTG twice out of the three games, both times with D.Va's ult, the last one killing 4 people at once, which was just beautiful. Ended up with 11 gold medals out of those 3 games, 2 silver and 1 bronze. The one game I wasn't even going to play D.Va, was going to go Soldier 76 because it was a control point map that I'm pretty good with him on, but we had no tank, no-one else wanted to switch, so I suited up as D.va and pretty much kicked butt the entire game.

Also, don't forget to lead your target. Even at extreme close range, your shots take time to travel, so if you are keeping your reticle on your enemy, they are going to be gone by the time your shot get's there. You'll have to get use to how much lead you have to give your targets...less lead the closer they are (obviously). So if your playing Orisa, and Genji charges in and is sprinting circles around you, aim slightly ahead of him, for example. Pretty much the only time you don't need to lead your target is if you are at point blank, or right on top of them (such as right after Roadhog hooks a hapless victim), or if the are standing still (turreted Bastion or a scoped Widowmaker).

This is great advice, thankfully something I learned almost immediately due to having watched friends play FPS games forever, plus my buddy drilling it into my head immediately. It's one of those things that pay off immediately too, like the moment you encounter a genji or a lucio. Had a Lucio in one of the ctrl point maps tonight when I was D.Va and he kept trying to skate around me and kill me, but I just lead my shots and killed the poor guy like 4 or 5 times. He finally learned at the end, but it was too late by that point.

[Velaryon]

I finally got the chance to sit down and take advantage of the double XP weekend yesterday. Jumped on in the early afternoon and played one match of Quick Play (and won) before a friend jumped online. We grouped up and proceeded to go on about a ten game winning streak. It was a lot of fun. I locked in Lucio for the whole time, and really felt like I made a big difference. Eventually our streak came to an end and we started losing some matches, but a few hours later we got another friend and had more fun matches.

Also, I absolutely love Lucio in Total Mayhem matches. He can heal so much and so fast that the enemy team has to pretty much focus fire him to kill anyone. Meanwhile, I as Lucio don't even have to do the same, I just have to boop them away from the objective enough times to slowly inch the payload forward on attack, or stall them out in overtime on defense. I will miss this mode when it's gone (though I'll be glad to have No Limits back).

[Morty]

My sensitivity is almost as low as it can be. So that won't help. I don't really use Mei's alt-fire, which I guess might be part of the problem. I try to freeze people with her ray, then die.

[The_Jackal]

My sensitivity is almost as low as it can be. So that won't help.

It might be TOO low. You still want to be able to turn to face threats, an overly low sens will hurt you versus mobile enemies up close, and Mei does most of her work up-close.

I don't really use Mei's alt-fire, which I guess might be part of the problem. I try to freeze people with her ray, then die.

Yes, that's certainly the problem. Mei's Freeze is great, but it's a means to an end: Putting a spike between their eyes, or having your teammates do the same. And if you NEVER use the alt-fire, you're going to spend too much time waiting for enemies to get close, and leave your team losing the barrier war. That said, using your barriers well is 80% of Mei's value. A good Mei is a force-multiplier, able to trap enemies and split attacks. A bad Mei is a total liability, trapping your own teammates, wasting walls by blocking out an entire team (outside of Overtime) which only has the effect of forcing the enemy team to group up.

But it sounds like you don't have issue with your wall placement, only aim. My only advice is to practice, and don't get discouraged. Find some youtube videos of good Mei players, and see what they do. You'll find at high ranks they use alt-fire a LOT.

Also, I absolutely love Lucio in Total Mayhem matches. He can heal so much and so fast that the enemy team has to pretty much focus fire him to kill anyone. Meanwhile, I as Lucio don't even have to do the same, I just have to boop them away from the objective enough times to slowly inch the payload forward on attack, or stall them out in overtime on defense. I will miss this mode when it's gone (though I'll be glad to have No Limits back).

Yeah, that's why I don't like some of these brawl formats. They just seem poorly thought out in terms of balance.

I finished up my own placements, and played a few comp matches yesterday, I'm in low Gold now, which is about where I've been placing. I'm going to try and avoid quick play for Season 5, and find out where I wind up. I do seem to have found a niche in the current meta with D.va. She's not my favorite Hero, aesthetically, or in terms of playstyle, but she is solid versus the usual 'carry' heroes you see in my rank. I do have to admit I've been having luck bullying Roadhogs with D.va. He can still hook and de-suit me, but if I play conservatively and bait out his hook before going in, D.va's sustain and armor can really give her a big edge.

One thing I commonly see other D.va players do that is patently, abjectly wrong is to stand and shoot at middle ranges. She fires a shotgun, people, it has almost NO range. You've got to get in the enemy's face and duke it out. Peppering enemies from middle-range accomplishes nothing. Wade in, pour on fire, when someone focuses you, flash a few seconds of matrix til they get bored or die from friendlies, if you think you're gonna get de-suited, boost back so you can survive to re-suit with Baby D.va.

[Velaryon]

One thing I commonly see other D.va players do that is patently, abjectly wrong is to stand and shoot at middle ranges. She fires a shotgun, people, it has almost NO range. You've got to get in the enemy's face and duke it out. Peppering enemies from middle-range accomplishes nothing. Wade in, pour on fire, when someone focuses you, flash a few seconds of matrix til they get bored or die from friendlies, if you think you're gonna get de-suited, boost back so you can survive to re-suit with Baby D.va.

Maybe it's because I stick to Quick Play, but what I see most from D.Va players these days is a lack of understanding of her role within the team. Lots of people still play her like when she had 400 armor, trying to act like a more durable Reaper. I rarely see people using Defense Matrix to cover allies, or suppress a turret or Bastion so teammates can focus fire them. On the other hand, when I play her and try to do those things, no one takes advantage of the opportunity I'm trying to create by shielding them, so it might be more of a communication issue than play style.

I'm fortunate to still have a couple of friends I can play regularly with, or else I might give up the game entirely out of frustration.

[The_Jackal]

Maybe it's because I stick to Quick Play, but what I see most from D.Va players these days is a lack of understanding of her role within the team. Lots of people still play her like when she had 400 armor, trying to act like a more durable Reaper. I rarely see people using Defense Matrix to cover allies, or suppress a turret or Bastion so teammates can focus fire them. On the other hand, when I play her and try to do those things, no one takes advantage of the opportunity I'm trying to create by shielding them, so it might be more of a communication issue than play style.

I'm fortunate to still have a couple of friends I can play regularly with, or else I might give up the game entirely out of frustration.

Yeah, you've got to develop a thick skin for dealing with bad players, there's definitely no lack of them, but I see that as being no worse than any other team-based game. I've found myself to be very successful by simply latching onto another player and helping them do what they're trying to do, if it remotely makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't, and you're just going to die. But sometimes the other things happens and you win.

I definitely see a huge difference in the mindset and at least head-fake towards being cooperative and intelligent in competitive, I'd advise you to just stuff your rating give up quick play. That's my plan, at any rate.

[cobaltstarfire]

I've been trying to play characters other than Mercy, and have found I'm doing more Lucio, and Soldier 76.

Mystery Hero in arcade has been a little bit educational for me too, when it isn't just a meat grinder...

[Velaryon]

Yeah, you've got to develop a thick skin for dealing with bad players, there's definitely no lack of them, but I see that as being no worse than any other team-based game. I've found myself to be very successful by simply latching onto another player and helping them do what they're trying to do, if it remotely makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't, and you're just going to die. But sometimes the other things happens and you win.

I definitely see a huge difference in the mindset and at least head-fake towards being cooperative and intelligent in competitive, I'd advise you to just stuff your rating give up quick play. That's my plan, at any rate.

I don't quite understand your last line. Are you saying to stop playing Quick Play and switch to competitive?

[The_Jackal]

I don't quite understand your last line. Are you saying to stop playing Quick Play and switch to competitive?

Yes, I'm suggesting just that. I find that the rate of deal with asshats is profoundly lower in competitive, even at my meagre ~2k SR. Too many people in quick play treat the game as target practice, with not so much as a head-fake toward playing the objective or coordinating as a team.

[Morty]

I tried playing McCree on attack in Eichenwalde. I hit some people, and even killed two. It can be chalked up to accident, though - they happened to stand still as I fired in a random pattern.

Then I switched to Mei, and... it went okay, except for two times where I demolished the enemy team with a well-placed ult. But that was luck as well. Judging a good spot to lay down a wall is an acquired skill. Usually I did it with side-entrances to the payload's path, so they couldn't flank us.

[cobaltstarfire]

I've been avoiding competitive because when I did one placement match and asked for any pointers before things got started, I was just told to screw off and not come back until my avatar was silver and had stars under it (we still won the match, but I think someone one the other team threw the game or something?) So now I'm afraid to try competitive and have everyone yell at me because I'm only level 40 something.

[The_Jackal]

I've been avoiding competitive because when I did one placement match and asked for any pointers before things got started, I was just told to screw off and not come back until my avatar was silver and had stars under it (we still won the match, but I think someone one the other team threw the game or something?) So now I'm afraid to try competitive and have everyone yell at me because I'm only level 40 something.

Most people won't look twice at your level, on the other hand, I think asking for friendly advice is likely to trigger people. You don't need a silver avatar to do competitive, just don't go in expecting it to be a coaching seminar. People in comp DO expect you to know the maps, your hero, and generally how the game is played, but you don't need to play 600 games (what you need to get a silver portrait frame) to be able to know those things. If you want to learn about competitive strategies, I can't offer you better advice than to check out Unit Lost. Stylosa isn't the best evar Overwatch player, nor is his grasp of strategy next-level, but he's solid, he does a good job of conveying the basics, and by following his advice, you can definitely improve your game.

He's got basic guides for every Hero, new player guides on fundamentals, and does clinics on user-submitted replays, where he breaks down what players do well, and what their mistakes are. He's also reasonably entertaining to watch.

[NeoVid]

Huh, my experience of Comp team quality is a lot different. In my experience, Bronze and Silver are sub-Quick Play in terms of the kind of person you'll usually be playing with. High Platinum is where things got significantly better on average than QP, but that's the highest I've managed to get...

[cobaltstarfire]

I learn through practical experience, I do look at guides sure, but they aren't especially helpful for me. And getting ones panties in a twist because I said "is there anything I can do better for the team next round" is pretty stupid.

[The_Jackal]

Huh, my experience of Comp team quality is a lot different. In my experience, Bronze and Silver are sub-Quick Play in terms of the kind of person you'll usually be playing with. High Platinum is where things got significantly better on average than QP, but that's the highest I've managed to get...

I guess you've had a lot of positive quick-play experiences. These days, I find that 85% of quick play matches have one of the following auto-lose conditions:

1) Attack Torbjorn or Symmetra
2) Junkrat
3) Widow + Hanzo
4) No healers or tanks (not including myself)

And I'd say a 50% chance of having more than 1 of the afforementioned forfeits ongoing. While I still occasionally encounter that kind of BS in competitive, it's far more infrequent.

I tried playing McCree on attack in Eichenwalde. I hit some people, and even killed two. It can be chalked up to accident, though - they happened to stand still as I fired in a random pattern.

Then I switched to Mei, and... it went okay, except for two times where I demolished the enemy team with a well-placed ult. But that was luck as well. Judging a good spot to lay down a wall is an acquired skill. Usually I did it with side-entrances to the payload's path, so they couldn't flank us.

Point 1 is extremely punishing for a slow, attenuating Hero like McCree. They key to Eichenwalde 1 is getting a character or two who can flank and disrupt the enemy team spamming the chokepoint. I'd argue that Pharah is virtually mandatory on that map. She's the one character who can flank at will, disrupt the enemy defensive structure, and still retains enough mobility and reach to avoid getting trapped and killed. I don't like Mei on attack on Eichenwalde 1, unless you're facing a Bastion and you want to wall him off while your team dashes past the chokepoint.

I learn through practical experience, I do look at guides sure, but they aren't especially helpful for me. And getting ones panties in a twist because I said "is there anything I can do better for the team next round" is pretty stupid.

I totally agree, but there are a LOT of stupid people on the internet. I'm not saying that asking for feedback is unreasonable, just that there's many people in competitive with unreasonable expectations. Here's the mindset of your average competitive player: 'I should be low Diamond at the least, if I could only stop getting paired with scrubs'. Then you come on the microphone and ask a question which implies that you might be a beginner (which is NOT bad, it means you're actually thinking about what you're doing instead of just blinding charging into death), and they pounce with all the bile they've stored up from the day's losses. The weird part about that competitive mindset is that, in many cases, it's true! There are a lot of people in low ranks who can't climb because they don't have the phenomenal skills and aim required to solo-carry a team, and if they had the opportunity to be matched with a better class of player, they'd probably comport themselves pretty well. That's mostly because, in large part, Overwatch is a game that's more about teamwork, positioning, and wise use of resources (cooldowns and ultimates) than it is about mere mechanical aim. And yet, if you do have exceptional mechanical aim, and are facing people who don't, you can also dominate, more or less regardless of those factors.

[Velaryon]

Yes, I'm suggesting just that. I find that the rate of deal with asshats is profoundly lower in competitive, even at my meagre ~2k SR. Too many people in quick play treat the game as target practice, with not so much as a head-fake toward playing the objective or coordinating as a team.

Well, I haven't ever done more than one or two placement matches total, and I certainly don't want to live and die by my rank. I'm worried that I'll be exchanging one set of problems (people who don't play the objective, too many snipers and no one wanting to play tank or healer) for another (jerks yelling at me, people throwing if they don't like my character choice or if I pick "their" character). It's worth noting that I only use voice chat when I'm playing friends, and in a private party with only those friends, because 99% of people gaming online are people I do not want to talk to.

I guess you've had a lot of positive quick-play experiences. These days, I find that 85% of quick play matches have one of the following auto-lose conditions:

1) Attack Torbjorn or Symmetra
2) Junkrat
3) Widow + Hanzo
4) No healers or tanks (not including myself)

And I'd say a 50% chance of having more than 1 of the afforementioned forfeits ongoing. While I still occasionally encounter that kind of BS in competitive, it's far more infrequent.

This may say something about the difference between the caliber of opponents at level of play you're at vs. where I'm at, but I have been on teams that pulled out wins while suffering from any one of these (except the Widow + Hanzo, if I see both of them picked I usually leave the game). That may just be because I'm at a level where Junkrat is still viable, where attack Torbjorn can work as long as he gets his turret on the payload, or where the enemy team isn't good enough to punish us for not having a healer. One friend and I sometimes go Torb + Symmetra while on defense, even if there's no healer, and the combined extra health we provide teammates (along with more distracting turret fire) is often good enough to carry the day.

[cobaltstarfire]

I totally agree, but there are a LOT of stupid people on the internet. I'm not saying that asking for feedback is unreasonable, just that there's many people in competitive with unreasonable expectations. Here's the mindset of your average competitive player: 'I should be low Diamond at the least, if I could only stop getting paired with scrubs'. Then you come on the microphone and ask a question which implies that you might be a beginner (which is NOT bad, it means you're actually thinking about what you're doing instead of just blinding charging into death), and they pounce with all the bile they've stored up from the day's losses. The weird part about that competitive mindset is that, in many cases, it's true! There are a lot of people in low ranks who can't climb because they don't have the phenomenal skills and aim required to solo-carry a team, and if they had the opportunity to be matched with a better class of player, they'd probably comport themselves pretty well. That's mostly because, in large part, Overwatch is a game that's more about teamwork, positioning, and wise use of resources (cooldowns and ultimates) than it is about mere mechanical aim. And yet, if you do have exceptional mechanical aim, and are facing people who don't, you can also dominate, more or less regardless of those factors.

Has the definition of scrub changed in the past 5-10 years? Cause the average competitive player who can't climb, and blames their teams for it, kind of sounds like an actual scrub to me.

Maybe I'll just say screw it and do the other 9 placement matches, I just would like to play in a game where the players are nominally more interested in working together to win the objective (even if it's only nominally better than quick play lol). It's so much more fun and rewarding when I do find a group who wants to party up and works fairly well together.

edit: I just went and sent a friend request to everyone on the front page cause I had time to do it. (Also my battle tag disappeared from there? it's Cobalt#11437)

[Mutazoia]

I guess you've had a lot of positive quick-play experiences. These days, I find that 85% of quick play matches have one of the following auto-lose conditions:

1) Attack Torbjorn or Symmetra
2) Junkrat
3) Widow + Hanzo
4) No healers or tanks (not including myself)

And I'd say a 50% chance of having more than 1 of the afforementioned forfeits ongoing. While I still occasionally encounter that kind of BS in competitive, it's far more infrequent.

I've seen a Symmetra on attack actually work, but then it really depends on if the player has half a brain or not....dropping a teleporter fairly close to the last objective can make a big difference on maps like Anubis.

Junkrat is not an auto-lose condition on attack, but again...depends on the player. He's just harder to get solid hits with.

I'll still play a QP match with the Widow + Hanzo combo, but I'm not really going to take the matcher seriously, and I'll play a character I'm less familiar with.

You really CAN win with no healers...done it quite a few times, but you have to make sure your team is focusing the enemy healer (if one exists) whenever possible. And don't get me started on "no tanks" or the tanks that switch to DPS almost immediately, leaving their team tankless....

Point 1 is extremely punishing for a slow, attenuating Hero like McCree. They key to Eichenwalde 1 is getting a character or two who can flank and disrupt the enemy team spamming the chokepoint. I'd argue that Pharah is virtually mandatory on that map. She's the one character who can flank at will, disrupt the enemy defensive structure, and still retains enough mobility and reach to avoid getting trapped and killed. I don't like Mei on attack on Eichenwalde 1, unless you're facing a Bastion and you want to wall him off while your team dashes past the chokepoint.

I usually go Phara on Eichenwalde, and jump over the building directly infront of the attacker's spawn point. This get's me behind the choke, and on the objective almost immediately, which usually brings the entire enemy team rushing back to defend. This also let's me rocket a Torb turret or camping Bastion on the balcony above the payload before they can see me. Unfortunately, a lot of times, my team doesn't take advantage of this and still seems to hang back at the choke, instead of pushing forward.

[The_Jackal]

Has the definition of scrub changed in the past 5-10 years? Cause the average competitive player who can't climb, and blames their teams for it, kind of sounds like an actual scrub to me.

You mistake my meaning. I'm saying that you can only solo-carry if you wildly out-skill the enemy team. If you're close in skill level to your opponents, yes, you may perform above average in your team, and may make sound decisions and use good positioning, but your performance in any given match will have a great deal more to do with your teammates than it will have to do with you. After all, any team that has the presence of mind to stick together and protect the objective will almost invariably beat a team which trickles in and ignores the map's win condition, regardless of mechanical aim.

In fact, my general experience has been that awful players are usually awful not because they lack mechanical skill, but because they have no game sense, teamwork, or discipline.

Maybe I'll just say screw it and do the other 9 placement matches, I just would like to play in a game where the players are nominally more interested in working together to win the objective (even if it's only nominally better than quick play lol). It's so much more fun and rewarding when I do find a group who wants to party up and works fairly well together.

Yes, I'd recommend that. Maybe do one quick-play match just for a warm up before you start doing comp, but really, I find comp to be consistently more enjoyable and interesting, even when I'm losing, because you're far more likely to have your team stop the dribbling in and throwing when things don't go your way. Especially now that there's going to start being real penalties for leaving and throwing.