Overwatch: Boop!

[Psyren]

The Blizzard Devs are trying to meet a tall order: Make the game fun and engaging for casual players, and make it interesting and complex for tournament play.

My advice is to stop judging a team game based on clownfiesta random queue matches.

I agree with your analysis overall, but these two points seem at odds with each other. Those "clownfiesta random queue matches" as you call them, are part of Blizzard's balancing act as well as the coordinated teams. They are absolutely a vector by which to judge the game.

Having said that, I think the Mercy change is definitely going to appeal to both ends of the skill spectrum. Not so sure about D.Va, but I haven't tried it yet myself.

[The_Jackal]

I agree with your analysis overall, but these two points seem at odds with each other. Those "clownfiesta random queue matches" as you call them, are part of Blizzard's balancing act as well as the coordinated teams. They are absolutely a vector by which to judge the game.

That's true, but there ARE answers to Symmetra. Really robust, hard counters that shut her down very easily. The're called tanks (also, Pharah is great for clearing turret nests, and she's in no danger of being beamed to death). The problem is, when you're on a team where no one will swap to a tank, and if you swap to a tank and no one will follow you when you initiate, then sure, you're hosed. But that's not a balance problem, it's an idiot player problem. There's no hotfix for human stupidity.

Having said that, I think the Mercy change is definitely going to appeal to both ends of the skill spectrum. Not so sure about D.Va, but I haven't tried it yet myself.

I'm looking forward to it. I'm don't play Mercy very much, but I imagine I'll play more with this kit, when I'm filling on heals (though Zen is my most frequent healer). I like Tempo rez conceptually a lot more than 'hide and clear away team-wiping ults'. I hate that feeling of 'well, I could rez now, but what if, 2 seconds later, 3 more guys die?'. Well, that stops being an issue.

[Geno9999]

Not so sure about D.Va, but I haven't tried it yet myself.

At first I was a bit apprehensive of the D.va changes when they were announced, but after managing to play as D.va a few times on the PTR I'm starting to warm up to her.

The Missiles are a great increase to D.va's damage output without directly increasing her cannons, but I don't think they're the fastest missiles in the game so they're going to have trouble hitting moving targets. It's a very versatile though, since you can fire it while doing basically anything without interruption (such as retaliating against a target that's ulting while blocking with DM like Ascaloth suggested, focus down a target or barrier, etc.)

The halved DM uptime has been tripping me up the most, so relearning/mastering the DM resource management is going to take some time for me. Poor DM useage will really sting D.va now, since you only have 2 Second uptime vs. 10 Second Recharge. However, it's somewhat comparable uptime and cooldown to Zarya's Bubble Friendly ability. Except you still can potentially protect your entire team rather than a single person. And you can use it while it's on cooldown sort of.

I also really like the small quality of life change of allowing D.va to shoot while boosting, but haven't really noted more kills against Pharah since everyone wants to play the new Mercy.

[Psyren]

Thanks Geno! I tried to give new-D.va a try yesterday in the brief moments when I was at home, but the servers weren't cooperating. Hopefully that won't be the case today.

I'm looking forward to it. I'm don't play Mercy very much, but I imagine I'll play more with this kit, when I'm filling on heals (though Zen is my most frequent healer). I like Tempo rez conceptually a lot more than 'hide and clear away team-wiping ults'. I hate that feeling of 'well, I could rez now, but what if, 2 seconds later, 3 more guys die?'. Well, that stops being an issue.

Agreed!

That's true, but there ARE answers to Symmetra. Really robust, hard counters that shut her down very easily. The're called tanks (also, Pharah is great for clearing turret nests, and she's in no danger of being beamed to death). The problem is, when you're on a team where no one will swap to a tank, and if you swap to a tank and no one will follow you when you initiate, then sure, you're hosed. But that's not a balance problem, it's an idiot player problem. There's no hotfix for human stupidity.

This is oversimplifying a bit. Barriers stop her beam, but her orbs pass right through them to hit everyone behind, and can be quite damaging to the tank. Winston is the ideal counter, but she can make life difficult for the rest.

As for Pharah - if the turrets are out in the open or scattered around the objective, yes, she's a good pick. If they are locking down an indoor flank route or choke however, she's less ideal, though Junkrat is an alternative.

[The_Jackal]

This is oversimplifying a bit. Barriers stop her beam, but her orbs pass right through them to hit everyone behind, and can be quite damaging to the tank. Winston is the ideal counter, but she can make life difficult for the rest.

Perhaps. Yes, she can orb through Barriers, but unless you're Reinhardt holding up a shield, getting hit by an orb is a pretty rare occurrence, and part of the strength of dive is that they can move the fight to open ground where they don't have to worry about running through a tunnel to eat orbs. As for Rein, sure, an orb is a pain, but that's what Ana or Mercy should be doing, and you'll get ult that much sooner.

As for Pharah - if the turrets are out in the open or scattered around the objective, yes, she's a good pick. If they are locking down an indoor flank route or choke however, she's less ideal, though Junkrat is an alternative.

There's not many maps where there aren't multiple flank routes, especially for mobile heroes. Yes, you're right, if she turns the Pagoda in Hanamura 1 into a microwave, Pharah can't really do much in there. That's fine. That's just area denial, you just go left instead of right. When I say Pharah can crush turrets, I mean mainly that with good positioning, she can bombard any position enough to force the defending team to shift off of blocking the choke point. Fly up above the choke, perch above the wall, then concussive over to the roof of the Hut, and you've got a commanding view of the battle and can get the sentry turrets off the choke proper, so your team can enter. If Symmetra. She can also peek a Torb turret that's set up on the bridge, the most common location, and has 2 megas to choose from when she needs to refill health.

It works like clockwork in a coordinated team. It's a disaster in PUGs because you've got half your team playing peek and poke at the choke, never even bothering to try and go through it, so if half the team turns to shoot Pharah out of the sky, there's no punish from her teammates.

Look, I understand, I play a lot of quick play, and yes, I face a lot of cancer comp (any 3 of Junkrat/Torb/Symmetra/Mei), and lots of teams can't get it together to just push in and wreck them. But when I'm on teams that do, they fold up almost instantly, because every one of those heroes is dependent on immobile turrets and zoning fire, so if your team has the wherewithal to bypass the choke point in force, they get crushed. To be honest, I've found that defenders advantage is huge regardless of your comp.

[GolemsVoice]

Actually, regarding the discussion about the Mei animated short a few pages back, Soldier 76 actually has a voiceline, where he says he's sorry for the loss of the scientists, and that "a lot of collateral damage" happened when Overwatch was shut down.

[Psyren]

Perhaps. Yes, she can orb through Barriers, but unless you're Reinhardt holding up a shield, getting hit by an orb is a pretty rare occurrence, and part of the strength of dive is that they can move the fight to open ground where they don't have to worry about running through a tunnel to eat orbs. As for Rein, sure, an orb is a pain, but that's what Ana or Mercy should be doing, and you'll get ult that much sooner.

I think this debate has come up before, but her orbs aren't really for damage. I mean, if you catch a peeking enemy off-guard or nail enemies through a Reinhardt while their vision is limited, great. But their real purpose is zoning the choke from relative safety and stalling (or punishing) pushes through it, while her turrets serve as an early-warning system for a flank. Every orb that makes contact, even partially, charges her ult quite fast.

There's not many maps where there aren't multiple flank routes, especially for mobile heroes. Yes, you're right, if she turns the Pagoda in Hanamura 1 into a microwave, Pharah can't really do much in there. That's fine. That's just area denial, you just go left instead of right. When I say Pharah can crush turrets, I mean mainly that with good positioning, she can bombard any position enough to force the defending team to shift off of blocking the choke point. Fly up above the choke, perch above the wall, then concussive over to the roof of the Hut, and you've got a commanding view of the battle and can get the sentry turrets off the choke proper, so your team can enter. If Symmetra. She can also peek a Torb turret that's set up on the bridge, the most common location, and has 2 megas to choose from when she needs to refill health.

All true, though I'd question what the rest of Symmetra's team is doing while the Pharah is doing that. Taking out the flier isn't her job - her job is to protect the Widow or McCree's flank while THEY nail Pharah to the sky, and of course to get them back in the fight faster if the Pharah gets lucky.

[Velaryon]

Symmetra's orbs are definitely more of a zoning thing, and so that she can actively do something while holding a choke once her turrets are set up. They're usually too slow to directly threaten anyone except maybe Reinhardt while he's shielding, someone behind a Rein shield who might not see it coming, or MAYBE sentry-mode Bastion. Otherwise, anyone can easily sidestep an orb they see coming unless it's from point-blank range.

I've found two other uses for the orbs as well. At the beginning of the match, if you can time a shot so that the orb reaches the attackers' entrance right as the match starts, you can often catch someone unaware and get a quick boost of ult charge and maybe even a kill if they also get hit by someone else or if you put up turrets by the door. I also like to release a charged shot right when I start to engage someone, similar to using Zenyatta's alt-fire. When you run up on someone leading with an orb and then lock on your beam, it often results in a quick kill on most non-tanks and can help mitigate the slow charge time of the beam.

Winston is definitely Symmetra's hardest counter. The other tanks do okay against her to varying degrees, but I would stop short of saying she's countered by all of them. Most tanks other than Winston will be somewhat less effective at quickly clearing out a turret nest. If her turrets are close enough together that Roadhog or D.Va can blast them before they lose too much health, then they were placed wrong. Zarya's bubbles can buy her time to break a couple, and she doesn't need to be charged up to do it. Reinhardt can swing at them unless they're placed at varying heights where he can't easily take out 3 or 4 in one swing (again, if he can, they were placed wrong). Orisa should have a pretty hard time of it.

When it comes to direct combat, the only ones I would never try to attack as Symmetra are Winston and Reinhardt (unless I can get Rein from behind while he's distracted). Any of the others can easily go poorly for her, but Symmetra has a decent change against them as well. Well, the current live versions, anyway. I can't speak to how much difference Roadhog's being able to move while healing, or D.Va's rework affect those outcomes, since I still can't try them out.

[Geno9999]

Winston is definitely Symmetra's hardest counter. The other tanks do okay against her to varying degrees, but I would stop short of saying she's countered by all of them. Most tanks other than Winston will be somewhat less effective at quickly clearing out a turret nest. If her turrets are close enough together that Roadhog or D.Va can blast them before they lose too much health, then they were placed wrong. Zarya's bubbles can buy her time to break a couple, and she doesn't need to be charged up to do it. Reinhardt can swing at them unless they're placed at varying heights where he can't easily take out 3 or 4 in one swing (again, if he can, they were placed wrong). Orisa should have a pretty hard time of it.

When it comes to direct combat, the only ones I would never try to attack as Symmetra are Winston and Reinhardt (unless I can get Rein from behind while he's distracted). Any of the others can easily go poorly for her, but Symmetra has a decent change against them as well. Well, the current live versions, anyway. I can't speak to how much difference Roadhog's being able to move while healing, or D.Va's rework affect those outcomes, since I still can't try them out.

I would say that Symmetra's two hardest counters are Zarya and Winston, though Winston is slightly better if he can barrier dance to keep the beam from locking onto him while zapping Sym. Zarya's barriers can help mitigate the beam and give her a nice bit of energy as well.

Symmetra Vs. D.va, at least speaking from the D.va end, Live D.va has trouble killing Sym if your tracking isn't 100% on point, but PTR D.va should tip the odds into her favor, provided she doesn't whiff the Missiles on Sym's Barrier.

[The_Jackal]

I think this debate has come up before, but her orbs aren't really for damage. I mean, if you catch a peeking enemy off-guard or nail enemies through a Reinhardt while their vision is limited, great. But their real purpose is zoning the choke from relative safety and stalling (or punishing) pushes through it, while her turrets serve as an early-warning system for a flank. Every orb that makes contact, even partially, charges her ult quite fast.

Sure, I don't disagree with that assessment at all. I'm just saying that that kit isn't hard to defeat with a coordinated team. I stand by my assertion: Symmetra (and to a lesser extent, Torb) is an IQ test for the enemy team.

All true, though I'd question what the rest of Symmetra's team is doing while the Pharah is doing that. Taking out the flier isn't her job - her job is to protect the Widow or McCree's flank while THEY nail Pharah to the sky, and of course to get them back in the fight faster if the Pharah gets lucky.

Absolutely, I just think that Pharah's got much easier time of it, especially at low SR where mechanical aim tends to suffer. Plus, if you've put up sentry turrets on the other side of a choke point, it doesn't take too many rockets to clear all that off. For example, Eichenwalde 1 lets Pharah cruise past the first point on either the left or the right, refill her thrusters, then peek over a rooftop to bombard any defensive turrets from an angle that most hitscans will struggle to counter. Look, I don't want to re-litigate the Symmetra argument, I'm just refuting the 'Blizzard Balance is Trash' argument.

I would say that Symmetra's two hardest counters are Zarya and Winston, though Winston is slightly better if he can barrier dance to keep the beam from locking onto him while zapping Sym. Zarya's barriers can help mitigate the beam and give her a nice bit of energy as well.

Symmetra Vs. D.va, at least speaking from the D.va end, Live D.va has trouble killing Sym if your tracking isn't 100% on point, but PTR D.va should tip the odds into her favor, provided she doesn't whiff the Missiles on Sym's Barrier.

Reaper is also a hard D.va counter, as he's utterly lethal in any range that Symmetra can do damage. Symmetra's fully charged beam does 120 DPS. Reaper does more than that in one SHOT. And as for D.va v. Symmetra, if you don't get her low in the first two seconds, boost out of there and break her beam. Plus D.va's boost will knock Symmetra out of position, so she can peel for teammates, which Symmetra will likely be prioritizing, since hitbox size is utterly irrelevant to her.


In what I hope is less controversial news, I've had an unofficial Tracer weekend in my quick play games this weekend. I'm not sure what my win rate is (please bring back quick play loss figures, Blizz), but I feel like I did pretty well, winning 20 games over the weekend, and posting pretty decent stats. I've found that I really enjoy Tracer's ability to chase down runners. You can dart in and harass folk with mid-ranged tickle fire, but without other heroes in the mix to cause confusion for you to take advantage of, you really can't apply any kind of pressure. Once the brawl starts in earnest, though, Tracer is dangerous. A full clip of her pulse pistols is worth 240 damage and her mag empties in one second. With crits, that is some SICK burst, and it's enough that her effective range is actually pretty decent. Zip in, melt a key target (surprisingly easy when you're good at picking flanking angles), and then ride man advantage to a teamwipe. When Hanzo says "Such beauty is wasted on the soul of a killer.", I've always had this idea that he's talking about Tracer, because there is nobody as good at chasing down runners and putting them down than our time-traveling pixie.

[Psyren]

Look, I don't want to re-litigate the Symmetra argument, I'm just refuting the 'Blizzard Balance is Trash' argument.

Agreed on all points but especially that one.

When Hanzo says "Such beauty is wasted on the soul of a killer.", I've always had this idea that he's talking about Tracer, because there is nobody as good at chasing down runners and putting them down than our time-traveling pixie.

I'm fairly certain he means himself, but you knew that

Sombra is fun to harass Tracers with. Tracer is faster, but Sombra can easily get height advantage and once hacked, the cockney is easy meat.

[The_Jackal]

I'm fairly certain he means himself, but you knew that

Yeah, I did, but as per usual in these circumstances, I like my headcanon better than Blizzard's.

Sombra is fun to harass Tracers with. Tracer is faster, but Sombra can easily get height advantage and once hacked, the cockney is easy meat.

Oh, God yes. Getting hacked incredibly bad for Tracer, same with Genji. The only Hero who suffers more from being hacked is poor Reinhardt. That said, I did have a few moments where I got hacked, then turned and burned Sombra's face off. I'm pretty sure I still wound up dying, but trading out is better than just dying.

[Geno9999]

Reaper is also a hard D.va counter, as he's utterly lethal in any range that Symmetra can do damage. Symmetra's fully charged beam does 120 DPS. Reaper does more than that in one SHOT.

Eeeh, in a pure 1v1 duel setting, yes, Reaper completely counters D.va. In a teamfight setting it's kind of fuzzy, as D.va can just buy time by waving DM over Reaper and suffocate him like Jeff Kaplan described (since if Reaper can't deal damage, he also can't heal himself) for the rest of D.va's team to finish him off, and if he wrath forms to safety and if his team isn't pressuring the D.va as well, that's just time for D.va to regain DM for round 2.

In the PTR, it's weirdly inverted? The 1v1 duel setting is still in Reaper's favor, but if D.va can land a full salvo of missiles, she just might outpace Reaper's DPS/Healing before he breaks her mech open. Though granted, a competent Reaper should be bobbing and weaving to dodge most of the missiles, which again, the duel is still in Reaper's favor. In a teamfight, DM is a much more precious resource that either A) D.va has already used up DM to block the initiation, or B) D.va has reserved DM for protecting the backline, but even in the case of B, D.va only has 2 seconds of DM to block Reaper with. It's enough for D.va to save whatever target that Reaper was going to pick off, but DM alone won't be enough for Reaper to retreat so soon.

[The_Jackal]

Eeeh, in a pure 1v1 duel setting, yes, Reaper completely counters D.va. In a teamfight setting it's kind of fuzzy, as D.va can just buy time by waving DM over Reaper and suffocate him like Jeff Kaplan described (since if Reaper can't deal damage, he also can't heal himself) for the rest of D.va's team to finish him off, and if he wrath forms to safety and if his team isn't pressuring the D.va as well, that's just time for D.va to regain DM for round 2.

Sorry, sorry, I mistyped that. I meant Reaper counters Symmetra, not D.va. Yes, I completely agree that D.va v. Reaper kind of favors D.va. A, she's got matrix, which gives her team 4 seconds to snuff him out, and B, if for some reason she's low on Matrix, she can always boost away for a breather.

In the PTR, it's weirdly inverted? The 1v1 duel setting is still in Reaper's favor, but if D.va can land a full salvo of missiles, she just might outpace Reaper's DPS/Healing before he breaks her mech open. Though granted, a competent Reaper should be bobbing and weaving to dodge most of the missiles, which again, the duel is still in Reaper's favor. In a teamfight, DM is a much more precious resource that either A) D.va has already used up DM to block the initiation, or B) D.va has reserved DM for protecting the backline, but even in the case of B, D.va only has 2 seconds of DM to block Reaper with. It's enough for D.va to save whatever target that Reaper was going to pick off, but DM alone won't be enough for Reaper to retreat so soon.

I haven't done any PTR testing, but yeah, this doesn't surprise me. With the shorter DM, Reaper has a bit more ability to apply pressure. Really, the trick with Reaper in team games is awareness. Good callouts make it very, VERY hard for him to surprise anyone, and with top-tier aim, that means he'll die before he ever gets in his effective range. I'm not saying it can't ever work, but it's an uphill batttle. We'll see whether taking D.va down a notch improves his usage.

[Velaryon]

So now that the Summer Games event is ending again, I've had a few thoughts about how Blizzard can improve the Lucioball event if they bring it back for a third time next year:

1. Improve hit detection on the ball. This is a must. There have been numerous times when I booped the ball at point blank range and it did not react, as if I hadn't hit it. It's possible this is a latency issue (especially since I've encountered times when I recorded a save on a shot that was also counted as a goal), but either way, it needs to be fixed.

2. More equitable distribution of positioning. It seems like it's randomized who gets started in which position, but in my actual experience it seems like one person ends up disproportionately being made goalie for nearly the entire match. I think it needs to be rotated evenly every time, so if you're goalie now, then next time someone else will be goalie. If you're playing with a team and you have someone who wants to be a dedicated goalie, they can always switch with you.

3. Deal with inactive players. I don't know if this was a PS4-exclusive problem (since we don't have a Report Player feature) or if it hit all platforms, but Lucioball was full of players either not moving at all, or spinning in circles because they rubber banded their control sticks together. It seems that for whatever reason, the game's normal process for kicking inactive players doesn't work in Lucioball. Maybe they removed it so goalies aren't booted, maybe the matches are too short to trigger inactivity, I'm not sure. Either way, in nearly half the games I played there would be someone who was just farming XP and not playing the game, and they weren't getting removed from the match.

4. Increase the XP rewards and especially the backfill bonus. I think the XP rewards are lower because of the fixed 4:00 timer on the game, but between the clock stopping when a goal is scored and the unlimited sudden death overtime, Lucioball matches really are only a minute or two shorter than a lot of Quick Play matches. For that matter, it's entirely possible for many Quick Play matches to end faster than a Lucioball match if it turns out to be totally one-sided. And yet Lucioball gives at least 1000 less XP on average per match than Quick Play. This should change.

XP bonuses for backfilling need to go up too, because as it is there's absolutely no reason to backfill into a match. Joining a regular match, you always have the chance that you can make the final push to turn around the match. But if I backfill into a match where there's a minute left and my team is down by 4+ goals, there simply isn't time to overcome that, so it's a guaranteed loss if I stick around. So I don't, and neither do most other players who backfill into a losing match, from what I've seen. Since match queue times are relatively short, there's absolutely no reason to join a match you know can't be won. They probably ought to do something to discourage quitting in Lucioball as well, but even if they did, this would still be an issue.


All in all, it was still a better experience than last year since at least there was no game-breaking trick to play as a different character in Lucioball, but there's still a lot of room for improvement.

[Togath]

I'll second all four. Only met two afk players... but it still soured those matches.
I also feel like the boop range in Lucioball is way shorter than in normal play, but maybe that's my imagination? Feels like I gotta be point blank with it.

[Psyren]

I'll second all four. Only met two afk players... but it still soured those matches.
I also feel like the boop range in Lucioball is way shorter than in normal play, but maybe that's my imagination? Feels like I gotta be point blank with it.

It's more likely that the ball's hitbox is a bit wonky compared to its model.

[gomipile]

Oh, God yes. Getting hacked incredibly bad for Tracer, same with Genji. The only Hero who suffers more from being hacked is poor Reinhardt.

Doomfist has it about as bad as rein when he gets hacked.

[The_Jackal]

Doomfist has it about as bad as rein when he gets hacked.

Worse, really. Rein still has is giant hammer that does 75 per swing. Doomfist can... punch for 30 and fire his knucklespikes? Yeah, he's boned.

[NeoVid]

Well. The event showed me the down side of the new, duplicate-free loot crates: I had a fraction of the coins I'd stocked up for all the other events. I never realized there was a positive part of the "all duplicates all the time" loot boxes until it hit me that I'm not going to have the Cricket skin for a year...

[Velaryon]

Well. The event showed me the down side of the new, duplicate-free loot crates: I had a fraction of the coins I'd stocked up for all the other events. I never realized there was a positive part of the "all duplicates all the time" loot boxes until it hit me that I'm not going to have the Cricket skin for a year...

Yeah, same here. I didn't get snorkeler Sombra, winged victory Mercy, or my most wanted skin grilldad 76. All I got was the stupid lifeguard McCree and biker Reaper (which is kinda neat but I don't play much Reaper), along with picking up a couple of skins I missed last year.

It was nice to see that I regularly got 2 or sometimes 3 event items in the Summer Games loot boxes, but it seems to have been offset by there being more low-rarity items than usual. And seriously, they need to lay the hell off the player icons. There are way too many. About 2/3 of the total event items I've gotten in the last two events have been player icons. It's too much.

[The_Jackal]

Well. The event showed me the down side of the new, duplicate-free loot crates: I had a fraction of the coins I'd stocked up for all the other events. I never realized there was a positive part of the "all duplicates all the time" loot boxes until it hit me that I'm not going to have the Cricket skin for a year...

Yep. Now instead of having more gold, you'll need to settle for more sprays and player icons. Fortunately, I got really lucky with my skins this time, I got Winged Victory Mercy, Lifeguard McCree, and had saved up 3k for Cote d'Azur Widowmaker. But at the end of the day, I'm treating lockboxes and the things that come out of them as utterly irrelevant to the enjoyment of the game. I'm here to play, not play dress-up.

[Winthur]

I bought Foot Fetish Mercy and got a Cricket Junkrat (whom I don't play) and Cote d'Azur Widowmaker. Fun turnout, but I wouldn't care either way.

I must also say that I love having a ton of skins for characters I barely play. I have all the blue Hanzo skins and the Cyberninja legendary and three legendaries for Genji. Still haven't gotten a legendary for Ana whom I play the most out of my supports while all of my other supports have at least one.

But yeah, I played a ton of LoL and now this and I never spent a dime on cosmetics. I just take skins as they go, for better or worse. Kinda really can't emphathize with the mentality that goes into actually paying for a chance to get those skins. And you can roll between things like player icons, which I pretty much don't ever notice.

[The_Jackal]

But yeah, I played a ton of LoL and now this and I never spent a dime on cosmetics. I just take skins as they go, for better or worse. Kinda really can't emphathize with the mentality that goes into actually paying for a chance to get those skins. And you can roll between things like player icons, which I pretty much don't ever notice.

It's a cynical attempt to monetize compulsive gambling behaviors. I guess the upside is that there's a limit to how much you can blow on lockboxes before you have all the things, whereas you can keep dumping money down slots until you're out of money. At least it's not Hearthstone where you're actually paying for power.

[Geno9999]

From the Summer Games I got Lifeguard McCree, Dad 76, and Cote d'Azur Widowmaker, and I got the older skins that I liked from last year which were the American McCree, Taegeukgi D.va, and Weightlifter Zarya. All in all a really nice haul, and with the revamped lootbox drop system, I didn't have to worry about buying a event skin early on in the event only to find it in a lootbox.

[Psyren]

At least it's not Hearthstone where you're actually paying for power.

1) Uh... of course you pay for power in Hearthstone, it's a CCG. This is like saying Magic shouldn't be charging for booster packs.
2) Unlike Overwatch, Hearthstone is truly free to play, rather than being a full-priced game with microtransactions on top of that.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both games immensely, but comparing them like that doesn't make sense to me.

[The_Jackal]

1) Uh... of course you pay for power in Hearthstone, it's a CCG. This is like saying Magic shouldn't be charging for booster packs.

Yes, I am, because the gambling mechanic put into the acquisition system is unnecessarily exploitative, only serving to wildly inflate the amount of money required to complete your collection. I will concede that at least Hearthstone is free to play, though that's somewhat deflated by the fact that the way you play for free is you become fodder for people who pay for packs. There is Arena, of course, but that's a very different (and far less fun or interesting) mode of play. But the game would be far more fun if they just let you install whatever cards you wanted, you paid a one time or per expansion fee, and got everything. After all, that's how the constructed meta works anyway: You just get collecting packs until you have what you need to make a deck. Plus the designers could skip making the 40% of cards that are nothing but pack filler.

2) Unlike Overwatch, Hearthstone is truly free to play, rather than being a full-priced game with microtransactions on top of that.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both games immensely, but comparing them like that doesn't make sense to me.

Hearthstone is free-to-play and like most other free to play games, it's also 'pay to win', ie: you can buy power with cash. There are some exceptions, but Overwatch, like TF2, at least is only selling you the opportunity to get cosmetics, which is a system I have a lot fewer problems with, as I'm not going to suck at the game unless I drop a chunk of cash every time they do a content update, for fear of falling behind the joneses.

Suffice to say that I have misgivings about games with micro-transactions of any stripe. I honestly think they're a detriment to any game they're offered in, because to incentivize the purchase of virtual goods (either via gambling or direct purhase), the designers have to make the in-game acquisition of these rewards (because that's what they would be if it were simply a game without this BS) unnecessarily onerous.

[Psyren]

Yes, I am, because the gambling mechanic put into the acquisition system is unnecessarily exploitative, only serving to wildly inflate the amount of money required to complete your collection. I will concede that at least Hearthstone is free to play, though that's somewhat deflated by the fact that the way you play for free is you become fodder for people who pay for packs.

You disagree with CCGs on principle. That's totally fine, I dislike MOBAs myself, but "I don't like this kind of game" and "this is exploitative" are not at all the same thing. Free To Play can be done right, and Hearthstone is one of the games that pulls it off. (LoL is another.)

There is Arena, of course, but that's a very different (and far less fun or interesting) mode of play.

Your opinion is not fact. I find Arena to be very fun and interesting, and many others do too.

You're also forgetting Tavern Brawl, particularly the frequent Brawls that outright give you a premade deck to play with, rendering your collection (and your opponent's) irrelevant. Best of all, in both Arena and Brawl you can still complete quests, which give you even more free cards and currency. You literally never have to play "constructed" if you don't want to, or worry about what the meta is. I've spent my entire time in Hearthstone without ever encountering one of those meta decks simply because I don't play Ladder, and I've opened dozens of card packs to date.

Hearthstone is free-to-play and like most other free to play games, it's also 'pay to win', ie: you can buy power with cash.

That's not what "pay-to-win" means. P2W is where you are forced to pony up to compete, rather than it merely being more convenient. Again, they have two whole game modes where paying is not only unnecessary, it's largely irrelevant. I have beaten people in both modes who, judging by their other cosmetics, play the game at a competitive level.

[Velaryon]

I must also say that I love having a ton of skins for characters I barely play. I have all the blue Hanzo skins and the Cyberninja legendary and three legendaries for Genji. Still haven't gotten a legendary for Ana whom I play the most out of my supports while all of my other supports have at least one.

Happens to me too. I have every single Hanzo skin except Cyberninja, and I probably only have 2 or 3 hours of play time with him, tops. I have at least four legendary skins for Zarya as well, and she's my least favorite character.

Meanwhile, I only have two legendaries for Soldier 76, and one of them is Strike Commander Morrison that came with the game for free.

It's a cynical attempt to monetize compulsive gambling behaviors. I guess the upside is that there's a limit to how much you can blow on lockboxes before you have all the things, whereas you can keep dumping money down slots until you're out of money. At least it's not Hearthstone where you're actually paying for power.

I have long since stopped buying loot boxes in Overwatch because I'm pretty much guaranteed not to get what I'm hoping for, and to feel that whatever I do end up with isn't worth the money I spent on it. However, I do have to say that I appreciate this business model because it means that they do not charge for the new characters and maps. Sure, it looks greedy when you compare it to freemium games (that are nominally free, but in practice the most successful players are always the ones that invest tons of money into the game), but I look at it as an improvement over most games that put all the important content like new maps, new characters, etc. behind the DLC paywall. If the loot box system means that we get new characters and maps for free, then I'm glad it's there.

[Winthur]

That's not what "pay-to-win" means. P2W is where you are forced to pony up to compete, rather than it merely being more convenient. Again, they have two whole game modes where paying is not only unnecessary, it's largely irrelevant. I have beaten people in both modes who, judging by their other cosmetics, play the game at a competitive level.

The only decks that ever see play with F2P are Pirate Warrior and Midrange Hunter (rip Quest Rogue). Can't deny that buying cards is pretty much necessary to stay on top of the meta, unless you only like playing aggro.

Also, right after getting Cricket Junkrat, I immediately got Jester Junkrat. Though I actually like the Joker-themed skins for the dude...