OOTS #1068 - The Discussion Thread

[Kantaki]

I was going to recommend relentlessly hitting the anvil with a hammer, but then I remembered the metaphor has been corrupted such that that might be mistaken for a positive tactic.

I stll think not standing under the falling anvil is the best approach.
That or a sturdy umbrella. Won't stop the anvil, but at least they don't see it anymore.

[littlebum2002]

Aah, but that's exactly the thing! He didn't specify anything of that. He just said "Nazi". And in lieu of generalization, that means Schindler as well. Because he was one up until the end, even while saving people.

See that's the issue and danger with generalizing people, all the details and what was actually "meant" gets lost in the act of lumping everything under one convenient label. You work by absolutes... just like some people here did by pretending that everyone who claimed this strip to feel jarring being "just sexist people".

Ok, i see the issue here. Let me clarify:

"It is ok to generalize anyone who is a Nazi in the year 2017 CE"

Is that better? Or can you think of any misunderstood Nazis in the current time period?

[Unoriginal]

Aah, but that's exactly the thing! He didn't specify anything of that. He just said "Nazi". And in lieu of generalization, that means Schindler as well. Because he was one up until the end, even while saving people.

No he wasn't. Being a traitor to X group and working against their directive means that you stop belonging to X group.

[Kish]

I assume you base this on the fact he is the less sympathetic villain, right? Because I can see an argument for RC being the ultimate main villain, based on the moral complexity of him being irredeemably evil, but whose goals are not wholly so. I.e. it is easier to write a story with Xykon as the ultimate evil, but I think Rich might be going for a more nuanced final confrontation.

GW

Less sympathetic, more powerful, Redcloak is his slave. And in terms of power, Redcloak is currently one level higher than the Order and is advancing slower than they are, while they outnumber him six to one; a battle between him and the Order would be a walkover for the order.

I expect Redcloak's ultimate role in the story to be more nuanced and more important than Belkar slaughtering him, but I would be amazed if Xykon doesn't have another confrontation with Roy. Whether he ever remembers who that is or not.

[Ruslan]

Aah, but that's exactly the thing! He didn't specify anything of that. He just said "Nazi".

I have only one thing to say to that.

Spoiler

Show

(yes, I realize that, technically, your post didn't start with the word 'technically'. Same difference.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Aah, but that's exactly the thing! He didn't specify anything of that. He just said "Nazi". And in lieu of generalization, that means Schindler as well. Because he was one up until the end, even while saving people.

You are being disingenuous.

Also, self-defeating: do you still claim "all generalisations are bad" now that the contextual meaning has been clarified? You made an absolute statement - all it takes is one counter-example to show your assertion to be false.

Grey Wolf

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'm afraid I also don't see why either a) this joke comes across as terribly offensive, or b) Rich should be concerned about offending someone who would find it that way. I don't think the way the joke is delivered particularly overly hurts someone, since it's really more of a criticism of culture. And anyone who does feel that the comment was directed at them, well perhaps they need to examine some of their internal beliefs. Or at least realize the joke wasn't for them, it was for others to laugh along with.

Also, perhaps we could find a better example than Nazism? We're having a lovely discussion here and I would miss it if the mods blocked this thread after that, and I think repeatedly using that reference could drag this discussion on a dark path.

[Unoriginal]

What's funny is that "all generalizations are bad" is in itself a generalization.

[Samzat]

Why are you guys arguing about this? Nobody is getting credit for killing the entire Mechane crew anyway because they're not gonna be slaughtered! Either way, this felt like Dragonball Z a bit with the "I was holding back power all along!" way. I know there was a valid explanation, but still. That never needed to be announced that way, instead it could have been "Finally! A fight I can actually take credit for!" Or something along those lines. This could have been written better with the same takeaway.
no hurt samzat for writing opinion! samzat innocent!

[Kantaki]

What's funny is that "all generalizations are bad" is in itself a generalization.

I think „Ow the irony” is appropriate there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm afraid I also don't see why either a) this joke comes across as terribly offensive, or b) Rich should be concerned about offending someone who would find it that way.

Nononono, you see, they aren't "offended". No, the problem is that "the writing is clunky", they claim. And when we point out that this accusation only comes up when it's a social issue, we are unfairly generalizing.

Also, perhaps we could find a better example than Nazism?

I provided four others, but have been quietly ignored.

Less sympathetic, more powerful, Redcloak is his slave. And in terms of power, Redcloak is currently one level higher than the Order and is advancing slower than they are, while they outnumber him six to one; a battle between him and the Order would be a walkover for the order.

A straight-up fight, sure. But I'm not sure the story will be resolved in a straight-up slugging match.

I would be amazed if Xykon doesn't have another confrontation with Roy. Whether he ever remembers who that is or not.

Agreed.

Grey Wolf

[ChillerInstinct]

The Snarl isn't a villain. It's a violent McGuffin.

Betting that Rich is going to suddenly give it a personality, have that personality be villainous, and make it the villain of the last book while sweeping the evil characters he's established off the stage suddenly...well, let me put it this way: Whatever you're betting, I'll bet against you. Xykon will be the main villain of the overall comic for its duration and the main villain of Book Six will be Greg.

It's not really "sweeping the evil characters off the stage". Well, I mean, Xykon would die, possibly TDO and the other gods too, but remember one of the big recurring themes, here. Characters are undone by their own actions.

- Xykon played with a force obviously FAR above his weight class in order to play with world domination, plus his casual abuse of his underlings makes Redcloak's inevitable betrayal deliciously appropriate.
- TDO saw a godkilling abomination, created by divine struggles, and thought to himself "I will use the threat of this godkilling abomination to solve divine struggles in my favour." While his cause is noble to some degree, toying with universal obliteration was a real crappy way to go about it.
- The other gods? Well, aside from their squabbling creating the Snarl in the first place, and their refusal to help Goblinkind out is why TDO got pushed to this whole thing.

I don't think RC will die, by the way. At least not until the end-- Gobbotopia is probably going to be a breakfast burrito for the Snarl (because, really, building your utopia under THE largest Rift was definitely not going to backfire), and he'll have to live with his guilt, because, let's be blunt, the Snarl wouldn't have gotten loose without him. I could see him dying trying to right his wrongs in the climax, but not before then.

And really, the Snarl doesn't have to be a "villain". Being a violent Macguffin is enough when you're powerful enough. It'd be like a disaster movie, except the Snarl is... "alive"? At least moreso than, say, a twister or a massive flood.

[Ganbatte]

No he wasn't. Being a traitor to X group and working against their directive means that you stop belonging to X group.

Which is the kind of semantics and details the act of generalization doesn't care one bit about, hence why it's generally a bad practice.

You are being disingenuous.

Thanks, that's the point I wanted to make by mirroring it. Generalizing often is disingenuous, and you now see how.

[Quibblicious]

About the "lean in" joke, the interesting thing is that me, being not english-speaking, got it immediately, supposing, from the context, that it was a female/feminist version of "Gimme five/Preach it, sister!"
Ignorance for the win!

Ironically, as an English speaking American pretty well informed in politics, I whiffed on it completely. It actually left me somewhat confused until I googled the reference.

Which goes to show you that sometimes background just doesn't matter for idiomatic lines; sometimes they connect well (like for Dr.Zero) and sometimes they don't (like for me)

Q

[Grytorm]

Several people seem to 1) have issues with the quality of the writing, 2) not be able to specify what those issues are beyond "it's awkward," 3) not be willing to simply accept it as their tastes differing from the rest of the audience rather than some objective reality which Rich needs to listen to and immediately change his writing style for, and 4) bring up those issues in response to quite a small set of comics--this one and the one where Bandana mentioned a female ex.

Suggesting this is anything but a pure coincidence would, of course, be "tinfoil hat."

I don't know about the wider issue and it does sound like there is a problem. But I do think that the frost giants speech on this page seemed a bit random, mostly I think it is because the character is going into background and motivations where up into this point I wouldn't have expected her to receive much development. But looking back to she does play a somewhat prominent role being the more vocal of the two giants. And she does provide a good segue to Haley, Belkar and Varsuvius. Maybe its going somewhere maybe its not, but I don't think it is worth making a huge deal over.

Probably if anything it is more about the author giving a nod to Women's Week which is a pretty cool thing to do in my opinion.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanks, that's the point I wanted to make by mirroring it. Generalizing often is disingenuous, and you now see how.

You failed to make your point - you only succeeded in showing that your own grandiose generalization was wrong, while not actually proving that all generalizations are inherently bad.

GW

[Lord Torath]

It's lovely that you guys are talking about sexism n'stuff, I'm super happy for you, meanwhile, I got an anvil sitting on my monitor. It dropped on it as soon as I opened the page. No subtlety, no wittiness, it was just BAM! Gratuitous anvil, with very little payoff.
I just find it really distracting is all. And it's not even that well crafted.
Is it an ad? Like for an old timey blacksmith? How do I disable it?

Wait, like a literal anvil blocking out your screen? Or should I join the group #Didn't Get the Joke?

[ChillerInstinct]

Wait, like a literal anvil blocking out your screen? Or should I join the group #Didn't Get the Joke?

Arm yourself with delicious, tropey knowledge, friend.

[Jasdoif]

You failed to make your point - you only succeeded in showing that your own grandiose generalization was wrong, while not actually proving that all generalizations are inherently bad.

Wait a minute...is someone generally generalizing about generalizations? We may need a colonel if we can't rely on generals....

[Unoriginal]

Which is the kind of semantics and details the act of generalization doesn't care one bit about

...no?

If you say "Paladins are truthworthy", the generalization does absolutely care about and doesn not include people who stopped being Paladins.

[Kantaki]

Wait, like a literal anvil blocking out your screen? Or should I join the group #Didn't Get the Joke?

As in the „anvil” the Giant is dropping by having the giantess say what she said.
It seems it looks pretty big if you stand directly below it.

[ChillerInstinct]

Wait a minute...is someone generally generalizing about generalizations? We may need a colonel if we can't rely on generals....

The Surgeon General warns about generally generalizing about generalization, and that relying too much on the Colonel in general might be dangerous to one's longterm health, generally speaking.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait a minute...is someone generally generalizing about generalizations? We may need a colonel if we can't rely on generals....

I really don't think we want this thread getting any more colonic.

GW

[Kish]

But I do think that the frost giants speech on this page seemed a bit random, mostly I think it is because the character is going into background and motivations where up into this point I wouldn't have expected her to receive much development.

Sure, but that's normal. It's a humorous webcomic. The only reason we know (just to pick two of many examples) that Therkla was salutatorian of a ninja school until she assassinated the valedictorian, or that Shojo fed Argent a twenty-pound tub of strawberry frosting, is that Rich had a character (metaphorically speaking) turn to the audience and make a joke in the middle of a scene (in the second case, in the middle of a battle, in a strip that didn't need to exist and was largely only justified by that joke). It's something he's done from the beginning.

[Ruslan]

You failed to make your point - you only succeeded in showing that your own grandiose generalization was wrong, while not actually proving that all generalizations are inherently bad.

GW

A: "Violence is always bad."
B: "Well, not always. Sometimes you have to fight in self-defense or ..."
A: <punches B in the face>
A: "Do you see now!? Do you see why violence is always always always bad!!"

Of course, A didn't prove all cases of violence are always bad. He merely engaged in a nonsensical case of violence himself. Just as Ganbatte didn't disprove anyone, merely wrote some nonsensical stuff himself.

[Shining Wrath]

The Surgeon General warns about generally generalizing about generalization, and that relying too much on the Colonel in general might be dangerous to one's longterm health, generally speaking.

That's a private matter, best not discussed on this board. You may get into major trouble.

Going to mention a possibility: we can't rule out that MitD is an immature member of his species, and that when he matures he will be (A) more powerful than Xykon, if he isn't already and (B) irredeemably evil.

[Jasdoif]

I really don't think we want this thread getting any more colonic.

Some dietary fiber could be good for its health, though.

[Kish]

I think the creature in the darkness suddenly getting hit by "you mature and your alignment is changed irreversibly to your racial alignment" is far less likely than "the party is controlled by giant space cats and Xykon is actually from modern Earth."

[Ganbatte]

You failed to make your point - you only succeeded in showing that your own grandiose generalization was wrong, while not actually proving that all generalizations are inherently bad.

Given how you yourself admitted my generalization as being "disingenuous" I'd say I succeeded spectacularly enough - whether you want to admit it now or not.
As one last notice, I didn't use the words "often" and "generally" at random. Generalization is bad in itself? Yes. Can there be an exception one out of a million times? Sure, everything's possible.

Thanks for the debate, it was enjoyable.

A: "Violence is always bad."
B: "Well, not always. Sometimes you have to fight in self-defense or ..."
A: <punches B in the face>
A: "Do you see now!? Do you see why violence is always always always bad!!"

Of course, A didn't prove all cases of violence are always bad.

Of course, "Violence is always bad" is a generalization, and as I said generalizations are bad stuff.

I find it humorous how in your attempt to mock me you made a perfectly self-defeating example that actually supports me.

[Ruslan]

Arm yourself with delicious, tropey knowledge, friend.

There's an extension to this trope.