OOTS #1069 - The Discussion Thread

[KillingAScarab]

Now you're assuming that he's been concentrating on the task at hand every single time. My bet is it took an average of three turns of daydreaming or other distraction for one attempted cast of the spell.

This is my impression too. After all, Elan had to make this face...



...to cast mending. Also, how much was he concentrating on keeping an accurate tally?

Oddly, he had no trouble with this bit of multitasking.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oddly, he had no trouble with this bit of multitasking.

That was a display of agility, not concentration, and Elan's forte is not serious stuff at that point in the story. Plus, he's a bard. They do (fun) stuff like juggling all the time.

It takes his being mentored by Julio, developing a relationship with Haley, and his conflict with Tarquin to grow him up a little bit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As I stated in my post, Elan is Not A Reliable Witness due to his bardic use of figurative language.

If he had said "a dozen times", then there would be wiggle room for "how many times did he actually cast". The author instead gave us a precise number. And even if I accepted that he had lost count - which I don't - and he is being figurative while using non-figurative wording, he's not going to outright lie - if he says 11, it has to be around that number - somewhere between, say 8 and 15, which is still a significant portion of his overall spell count.

GW

[Shining Wrath]

If he had said "a dozen times", then there would be wiggle room for "how many times did he actually cast". The author instead gave us a precise number. And even if I accepted that he had lost count - which I don't - and he is being figurative while using non-figurative wording, he's not going to outright lie - if he says 11, it has to be around that number - somewhere between, say 8 and 15, which is still a significant portion of his overall spell count.

GW

I'm going to say that Elan tried approximately 11 times, but not every try necessarily burned up a casting slot. If he really meant to attempt Mending this round but got distracted by clouds, is that a try to Elan? I believe he'd count it as such. YMMV.

Meta reasoning I don't think the idea of "Elan burned through a lot of casting power" would be raised if it wasn't going to matter, so something is about to happen where Elan will need spell slots. Possibly a duel with the giantess.

[Kantaki]

Can't wait to see Elan solo that giantress. ;) After all, wasn't that why we were writing all these puns not long ago? To give Elan ammunition? :P

You maybe. I was just bored.

[hroþila]

Meta reasoning I don't think the idea of "Elan burned through a lot of casting power" would be raised if it wasn't going to matter, so something is about to happen where Elan will need spell slots. Possibly a duel with the giantess.

I think you're forgetting something in your meta reasoning: Elan burning through his spell slots to accomplish a simple task because he kept getting distracted is hilarious. It doesn't need to add anything to the story beyond that, although naturally it might.

[pendell]

If he had said "a dozen times", then there would be wiggle room for "how many times did he actually cast". The author instead gave us a precise number. And even if I accepted that he had lost count - which I don't - and he is being figurative while using non-figurative wording, he's not going to outright lie - if he says 11, it has to be around that number - somewhere between, say 8 and 15, which is still a significant portion of his overall spell count.

GW

In this case I accept Elan as speaking literally. He has to keep precise count of how many spell slots he's used every day, so it's reasonable he should know this number off the top of his head.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[choken1]

Priceless

It must be turned into a smiley. The Gods demand it!

Here you go.



Also, tilted version, where he's looking forward.



Also, also, smiley sized:

[Markozeta]

Here you go.



Also, tilted version, where he's looking forward.



Also, also, smiley sized:

The gods are pleased. I think. Let me check...

[choken1]

Yeah, the compression wasn't as good as I hoped it would be. Maybe someone can fix that.

[TheNecrocomicon]

He says he tried 11 times. To me, that clearly says he cast 11 times, and failed his concentration check 11 times. How are you reading it?

He said it "took him eleven tries", which means he failed at concentrating the first ten times and succeeded on the eleventh.

Now he might not have actually burned eleven spell slots, since if a turn went by where he suddenly had to hang on to the rope for dear life instead of having a free hand to cast, he might consider that a "try" while not getting so far as to actually start casting and then fizzle.

Additionally, regardless of the waste, those were critical spell slots to use, because otherwise the Mechane would just sink lower and lower and eventually be trapped at best or crash at worst. Now, there is at least a fighting chance of escape, albeit at a somewhat lower maximum altitude.

[Doug Lampert]

Warning: geekery ahead (and I don't even play the game).

There's another reason to give him level 14 Bard. Back when the order got back together after the big split, he cast Mass Cure Light Wounds for the first time. At that time, he discusses the two new 5th level spells he took (one was MCLW) for level 13, and then says at some future time he's going to swap one of his 4th level spells for Cure Critical Wounds. Bards have that ability to swap spells, but only every 3rd level. And one of those levels they can do it at is level 14. Some time later, when they're on the Mechane, he casts Cure Critical Wounds on Felix. Thus he gained level 14 between those two strips.

OK, I'll buy that. Bard 14 with 22+ Charisma is then minimum acceptable level. Which gives him the specified 4 cantrips, 5 level 1, 5 level 2, 4 level 3, 4 level 4, and 2 level 5. 11 casts of a cantrip would leave him with 3 level 2, 4 level 3, 4 level 4, and 2 level 5 spell slots, so he is nowhere close to being dry; he still has 13 more slots and the remaining slots are his high level slots.

[Kish]

I doubt Elan being low on spell slots will come up--most of his slots have gone unused for the comic to date. Far more significant is the ten rounds the balloon continued to leak helium.

[Goblin_Priest]

I could be mistaken, but isn't that exactly what he was doing when he said she would live for like two days tops if she won? It has certainly occurred to him that she wouldn't be fighting if she knew what the result would be.

Indeed, I think it was made pretty clear that she didn't know what was at stakes. She might not have been told anything, or she might have been told a lie.

I do suspect Elan will talk her out of the fight.

[KorvinStarmast]

Far more significant is the ten rounds the balloon continued to leak helium.

Second this motion.

[warmachine]

Bards cast magic using the power of song and music (or poetry or oratory). That means Elan should be concentrating on singing and playing his lute correctly to generate the magical tones and resonances.

As lutes are played with two hands, Elan needs one hand to hold on the rope and two to play but as DMs typically overlook bard spellcasting using a musical instrument whilst holding a sword, Elan playing a lute one-handed would be forgiveable. Elan is a true artiste, after all.

I think that would have made a better picture: Elan singing and playing his lute one-handed in an intense and determined manner.

[Keltest]

Bards cast magic using the power of song and music (or poetry or oratory). That means Elan should be concentrating on singing and playing his lute correctly to generate the magical tones and resonances.

As lutes are played with two hands, Elan needs one hand to hold on the rope and two to play but as DMs typically overlook bard spellcasting using a musical instrument whilst holding a sword, Elan playing a lute one-handed would be forgiveable. Elan is a true artiste, after all.

I think that would have made a better picture: Elan singing and playing his lute one-handed in an intense and determined manner.

In as much as that is probably true, Elan doesn't need any specific instrument to use his bard abilities. he doesn't even necessarily have to sing. Recitation and poetry both count for the verbal components of Elan's abilities, if he has the necessary skill points in their respective (perform) skill.

[Doug Lampert]

Bards cast magic using the power of song and music (or poetry or oratory). That means Elan should be concentrating on singing and playing his lute correctly to generate the magical tones and resonances.

As lutes are played with two hands, Elan needs one hand to hold on the rope and two to play but as DMs typically overlook bard spellcasting using a musical instrument whilst holding a sword, Elan playing a lute one-handed would be forgiveable. Elan is a true artiste, after all.

I think that would have made a better picture: Elan singing and playing his lute one-handed in an intense and determined manner.

Nothing in the rules gives any requirement for any musical instrument to cast spells as a bard, and contrary to what Keltest says (which is otherwise correct), the spellcasting feature does not mention any need for the skills being used, that's bardic music.

Elan could recite even if he's never spent a single skill point on Perform Oratory, he could sing with no points in Perform Singing, he absolutely does not need to be holding an instrument or playing one.

[Snails]

It was the 3.0 Bard where Perform skill mattered. That was dropped presumably because it was a mechanic that too incongruous with how other classes multiclassed, and thus was open to abuse by taking a one level dip into Bard.

In 3.5, the Bard is no more restricted than any other caster. Most spells have a verbal component requiring loud and clearly spoken words. Whether Bard employ some kind of artistry to add dramatic flair is left up to roleplaying.

In Pathfinder, there are specific bonuses to skills for taking a particular Perform choice, e.g. Oratory might give something like +2 to Diplomacy and Intimidate attempts, but it does not directly affect your spellcasting.

[SilverCacaobean]

"I will live" would be a weird thing for someone who knows perfectly well that her maximum life expectancy is two days to say.

I don't think she, or most (if, indeed, any) of the frost giants know that they're actively trying to end the world right now, but I'm less confident than Windscion that Roy can convince his current opponent of that fact, or will even think of trying.

Roy maybe can't but Elan could, if he had a brain.

Indeed, I think it was made pretty clear that she didn't know what was at stakes. She might not have been told anything, or she might have been told a lie.

I do suspect Elan will talk her out of the fight.

Yeah, I thought of that, too.

Though, it'd be more fun to have Elan and Roy trying diplomacy together! Roy using his int mod to tell Elan how to use his cha mod! I can see no way this could go horribly wrong!

[Unoriginal]

Bards cast magic using the power of song and music (or poetry or oratory). That means Elan should be concentrating on singing and playing his lute correctly to generate the magical tones and resonances.

As lutes are played with two hands, Elan needs one hand to hold on the rope and two to play but as DMs typically overlook bard spellcasting using a musical instrument whilst holding a sword, Elan playing a lute one-handed would be forgiveable. Elan is a true artiste, after all.

I think that would have made a better picture: Elan singing and playing his lute one-handed in an intense and determined manner.

You've been in this 5e thread, haven't you?


Bards don't cast spells by performing. They're jacks-of-all-trades who learn spells there and here independently from their magic music.

Speaking of singing and Jack-of-All-Trade...

[Elderand]

It was the 3.0 Bard where Perform skill mattered. That was dropped presumably because it was a mechanic that too incongruous with how other classes multiclassed, and thus was open to abuse by taking a one level dip into Bard.

In 3.5, the Bard is no more restricted than any other caster. Most spells have a verbal component requiring loud and clearly spoken words. Whether Bard employ some kind of artistry to add dramatic flair is left up to roleplaying.

In Pathfinder, there are specific bonuses to skills for taking a particular Perform choice, e.g. Oratory might give something like +2 to Diplomacy and Intimidate attempts, but it does not directly affect your spellcasting.

For spellcasting in 3.5 perform skill doesn't matter at all for bards, but they do have a specific mechanic relying upon perform skill prerequisite: bardic music.

[Goblin_Priest]

It was the 3.0 Bard where Perform skill mattered. That was dropped presumably because it was a mechanic that too incongruous with how other classes multiclassed, and thus was open to abuse by taking a one level dip into Bard.

In 3.5, the Bard is no more restricted than any other caster. Most spells have a verbal component requiring loud and clearly spoken words. Whether Bard employ some kind of artistry to add dramatic flair is left up to roleplaying.

In Pathfinder, there are specific bonuses to skills for taking a particular Perform choice, e.g. Oratory might give something like +2 to Diplomacy and Intimidate attempts, but it does not directly affect your spellcasting.

Don't remember for 3.0, SRDs are pretty much all 3.5

For PF, though... I'm not sure what you are talking about. PF removed the skill synergies 3.5 had, and I don't see anything in the pfsrd entries for perform or bards any mention of picking perform (oratory) would give you bonuses to diplomacy or intimidate.

[Unoriginal]

I think there is a feat in PF that let you use Linguistic for diplomacy or intimidation.

Send dragons run by the power of orthography.

[Kish]

You've been in this 5e thread, haven't you?

In at least one way, 5ed is thoroughly worse for this comic's discussion threads than 4ed was: people who only know 5ed seem way more inclined to think that means they understand OotS than people who only know 4ed ever did.

[Finagle]

is that a rules joke at the end? it seems to be a combination of rules joke and the artwork joke.

The author keeps insisting that he doesn't make rules jokes any more, and that those are in the past, rules jokes only appeal to a small group of D&D players that is a minority of the current readership, and it's really the story he's interested in.

And then he keeps making rules jokes.

[Jasdoif]

In 3.5, the Bard is no more restricted than any other caster. Most spells have a verbal component requiring loud and clearly spoken words.

All bard spells have a verbal component...

Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music).

...to the point that they're specifically excluded from benefiting from Silent Spell.

[Kish]

The author keeps insisting that he doesn't make rules jokes any more

Citation needed.

("The comic isn't about rules jokes anymore" would not qualify. Nor would "I no longer count on all or even a majority of my readers having D&D knowledge." Or anything else that doesn't actually indicate "no more rules jokes.")

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The author keeps insisting that he doesn't make rules jokes any more

[citation needed]

GW

[Unoriginal]

In at least one way, 5ed is thoroughly worse for this comic's discussion threads than 4ed was: people who only know 5ed seem way more inclined to think that means they understand OotS than people who only know 4ed ever did.

Wouldn't know about this. I was just referencing a recent thread that someone who insisted that Bards had to play their instruments when casting spells using them as focuses made.