The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Nifft]

Does a Nymph get the Druid's ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into SNAx?

The Druid's class description lists "spells" and "spontaneous casting" as separate class abilities. However, the Special Ability entry says:

Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.

I see implications which support both yea and nay.

[Celestia]

Does a Nymph get the Druid's ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into SNAx?

The Druid's class description lists "spells" and "spontaneous casting" as separate class abilities. However, the Special Ability entry says:



I see implications which support both yea and nay.

Nope. Spontaneous casting is a separate class feature. Though, taking one level of druid will give it to you.

[Nifft]

Nope. Spontaneous casting is a separate class feature. Though, taking one level of druid will give it to you.

Alternately, Initiate of Obad-Hai.

... which is exceptionally flavor-compatible.

(But yeah, one level of Druid is pretty amazing for a Dryad.)

[javcs]

Alternately, Initiate of Obad-Hai.

... which is exceptionally flavor-compatible.

(But yeah, one level of Druid is pretty amazing for a Dryad.)

One level (or more) of Druid is practically mandatory, really. Unless you can find a PRC that will advance the racial druid casting without needing actual druid levels.

[Thurbane]

Let's see:

• 6 Fey HD: not exactly Outsider or Dragon, but still decent RHD. The Fey type also unlocks some fairly cheesy feats and such. Solid skill list for RHD too.
• Standard land movement plus a swim speed.
• Dex +6, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +8: nice.
• Charisma to AC and saves: yes please.
• DR 10/cold iron is always going to be in play, law of diminishing returns at higher levels yada yada...
• Stunning Glance: at will save or lose. Run out of spells? No problemo.
• Blinding Beauty: always on (until you suppress it) debuff. Yes, it's Humanoids only, but in the typical campaign, that will be a LOT of encounters.
• Dimension Door 1/day as an SLA: handy, but hardly worth writing home about at this level.
• Casting greater than your RHD, from a very solid spell list: this is worth LA in and of itself. Yes, you probably don't compare to a 7th level Druid overall, but arguably the most OP out-of-the-box core class is hardly a fair comparison point.
• Wild Empathy: this ability has a handbook of it's own - I think that shows that it is a solid racial ability.

In good faith, I don't think I would let this go at my table for less than +4 LA. You'd still get Druid 9ths if you only take Druid/caster advancing levels. I might even impose LA +5 for this exact reason.

In the context of this thread, I could probably live with LA +3.

[edit] I'm going to point out again that I think using Tier 1 classes as a yardstick for LA is not really a good idea. I can see why it would be the natural go-to here with the innate casting involved, but I still think doing this has some serious pitfalls. [/edit]

[Zancloufer]

[edit] I'm going to point out again that I think using Tier 1 classes as a yardstick for LA is not really a good idea. I can see why it would be the natural go-to here with the innate casting involved, but I still think doing this has some serious pitfalls. [/edit]

The Nymph with it's racial bonuses and Fey based RHD is pretty much pigeonholed into continuing Druid casting. Yes it would be very good at it, but compare it vs a Druid of it's ECL if you want to give it a massive +4-5LA. I mean a Nymph 6 vs a Druid 10 or 11. You loose out on a giant pile of HD/Feats/Casting, not to mention the animal companion and ALL THE WILD SHAPE. Actually if you give it an LA of +4-5 a Druid 6/MoMF4 would actually be a better character.

It might make an okay Rouge as well, but with 8+ levels behind in casting and the first 8+ levels giving pretty much nope for BaB and HP it's not going to front line at all. While comparing it to a Tier 1 class might be a little large of a yardstick, it's pretty much the only viable advancement beyond being very sub-optimal on purpose.

[Thurbane]

The Nymph with it's racial bonuses and Fey based RHD is pretty much pigeonholed into continuing Druid casting. Yes it would be very good at it, but compare it vs a Druid of it's ECL if you want to give it a massive +4-5LA. I mean a Nymph 6 vs a Druid 10 or 11. You loose out on a giant pile of HD/Feats/Casting, not to mention the animal companion and ALL THE WILD SHAPE. Actually if you give it an LA of +4-5 a Druid 6/MoMF4 would actually be a better character.

It might make an okay Rouge as well, but with 8+ levels behind in casting and the first 8+ levels giving pretty much nope for BaB and HP it's not going to front line at all. While comparing it to a Tier 1 class might be a little large of a yardstick, it's pretty much the only viable advancement beyond being very sub-optimal on purpose.

Fair points, but as a general rule, I strongly advocate avoid using a Tier 1 class as comparison for assigning LA.

As I said, at my table, no way I could go below LA +4, but in the context of this thread, I could accept LA +3.

Oh, and I don't like to be that guy, but it's Rogue, not Rouge.

[danielxcutter]

Fair points, but as a general rule, I strongly advocate avoid using a Tier 1 class as comparison for assigning LA.

As I said, at my table, no way I could go below LA +4, but in the context of this thread, I could accept LA +3.

Oh, and I don't like to be that guy, but it's Rogue, not Rouge.

Rouge Angles Of Satin, anyone?

[dhasenan]

Fair points, but as a general rule, I strongly advocate avoid using a Tier 1 class as comparison for assigning LA.

I thought the point of this exercise was to provide level adjustments for monsters to put them in the same range as classes, rather than to stick each monster into a specific tier. For that purpose, comparing to the most similar player class makes sense. Some monsters will end up in Tier 4, some in Tier 1, probably none at Tier 5 or below because people tend to be annoyed when their beatsticks have trouble out-damaging the druid's animal companion.

If you think Druid needs some amount of reworking to be reasonable at your table, you probably want to apply similar changes to Nymph. However, that will probably be more involved than simply adding a level adjustment.

[J-H]

LA isn't just for starting level... it's also for later in the game. A LA 4! nymph druid and a human druid 20 both have 9th level spells. There's a CL difference, but that's minor unless we're talking SR, dispels, or an extra 3d6 damage.

Pick an arbitrary DC based on the spell level and base casting stat, and assume that both have the same point buy assignments and stat-boosting gear (Belt of Magnificence, probably). The Nymph Druid will be casting with +3 on her spell DC (higher Wis score), and saving with +3 (stat) + 7 (cha assuming a +6 item) on Will or Reflex and +1+7 on Fort. The extra 4 levels of druid only improve the human druid's save by 1 or 2.

For that arbitrary DC, if they cast the spell at each other and the Nymph Druid will fail on a 5, the Human Druid will fail on about a 17 or 15.

[Nifft]

LA isn't just for starting level... it's also for later in the game. A LA 4! nymph druid and a human druid 20 both have 9th level spells. There's a CL difference, but that's minor unless we're talking SR, dispels, or an extra 3d6 damage.

Pick an arbitrary DC based on the spell level and base casting stat, and assume that both have the same point buy assignments and stat-boosting gear (Belt of Magnificence, probably). The Nymph Druid will be casting with +3 on her spell DC (higher Wis score), and saving with +3 (stat) + 7 (cha assuming a +6 item) on Will or Reflex and +1+7 on Fort. The extra 4 levels of druid only improve the human druid's save by 1 or 2.

For that arbitrary DC, if they cast the spell at each other and the Nymph Druid will fail on a 5, the Human Druid will fail on about a 17 or 15.

Remember that the chief Druid stat-booster is Wild Shape, and the Nymph will never catch up.

Even at a mere LA +1, the Nymph would only gain Wild Shape at ECL 12 (which would be 11 HD).

At ECL 12, a vanilla Human Druid could walk around as... I dunno, let's pick a plant, how about being an enhance wild shape'd Kelp Angler all day. To quote eggynack:

This form gets blindsight out to 100 feet, which might just be the best vision mode natively accessible with wild shape, especially when you consider the fact that you see normally when it’s shut down, immunity to cold and bludgeoning along with fire resistance 20, which is on top of those standard plant immunities, regeneration 4 with a weakness to acid, which is a weakness that can be dealt with easily enough with energy immunity, and even a +10 competence bonus on hide checks. It’s just so damn much defensive might, capable of shrugging off most HP damage with ease, and spotting enemies with its blindsight before they can become troublesome. The fact that you’ll often need to invest in order to make use of the kelp angler on land, along with the need to use a spell with each use, means that this form is one of the more costly ones out there. However, with all of those abilities there for the taking, this is a price well worth paying.

Druids are T1 because they do crazy stuff like this.

High saves are nice, but immunities are better, and the vanilla Druid gets more.

Druid casting is good -- but if you cut off all their other class features, you end up with a Spirit Shaman, and that's a T2.

So yeah.

LA +2 at the most.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I was tremendously surprised with general support for +2 LA for the nymph. What the hell?

DR 10/Cold Iron might as well read At Will Stone Skin.

+6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha? That's close to worth +1 by itself, IMO. +6 DEX and +2 Con are merely the cherry on the cake.

Start out with a very reasonable CHA 14, buy or cast something for +4 Enhancement, and you are rocking an untyped +8 to all saves, all the time, and +8 deflection bonus, for free. And charisma is far from the hardest stat to buff, much less to a mid level Druid.

The protection alone means you get a free Epic Ring worth 1.280.000 GP.

But that's just the start.

Stunning Glance is At Will, 30ft range SoL. 2d4 rounds of stun? That keys off your honking charisma bonus? Do the math, a 10th level caster that started with a 18, +2 from levels, +4 from item, is casting his highest level spells at a DC of 22.

A 14 starting Cha with a +4 item means your at will SoL has a DC of 21.

And then there is the other charisma-based SoL. Risks friendly fire if you aren't careful, but again, at will SoL keyed off Charisma.

LA +4 without a problem, LA +3 at the very, very least.

A 20th level nymph can still get ninth level spells with a LA of +4, and at ECL 10, when it's at its weakest, it demonstrably has multiple level-appropriate abilities At Will, it has absolutely stellar defenses, and is also 7th level Druid caster with a ton of bonus spells and sky-high Wisdom isn't exactly useless at that level.

At LA +4, you are still seriously outcasting a Bard due to your ability to choose any spell with more spells per day at a higher DC. Druid list is a smidgeon weaker to Wiz/Sorc, and a good bit better to Cleric.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... I'm going with +3 now. Straight Druids are much better at beating face, but the Nymph is much better at both pure casting, and at natural defenses. It's a high +3, maybe a low +4.

[Celestia]

Everyone calling for +4 is really ignoring Wild Shape. It's literally a druid's greatest class feature. In some cases, it may even surpass the spellcasting. A nymph is simply not equivalent to a tenth level druid.

[javcs]

LA isn't just for starting level... it's also for later in the game. A LA 4! nymph druid and a human druid 20 both have 9th level spells. There's a CL difference, but that's minor unless we're talking SR, dispels, or an extra 3d6 damage.

Pick an arbitrary DC based on the spell level and base casting stat, and assume that both have the same point buy assignments and stat-boosting gear (Belt of Magnificence, probably). The Nymph Druid will be casting with +3 on her spell DC (higher Wis score), and saving with +3 (stat) + 7 (cha assuming a +6 item) on Will or Reflex and +1+7 on Fort. The extra 4 levels of druid only improve the human druid's save by 1 or 2.

For that arbitrary DC, if they cast the spell at each other and the Nymph Druid will fail on a 5, the Human Druid will fail on about a 17 or 15.

The LA +4 Nymph, in this situation has a Druid Caster level of 17, Wild Shape 4/day Small to Large (10HD or less), and only 10 Druid levels for the animal companion.


The human druid 20 has a full Druid Caster Level 20, 20 Druid levels for the animal companion, Wild Shape 6/day Tiny to Huge, Elemental Wild Shape 3/day Small to Huge (all Ex, Su, and Sp abilities, as well as all feats of the elemental), and 20 HD or less for the Wild Shape, and probably one or two more 9th level spells/day.
And Elemental Wild Shape allows for turning into the infamous Elemental Weirds. Which nets you free-action divinations, and Sorcerer 18 casting (plus two cleric domains, depending on which Elemental Weird you turned into). 0
The Human druid has somewhat worse saves, but probably better non-touch AC, thanks to judicious use of Wild Shape forms.

And, of course, this assumes that the Human Druid doesn't take one or more of the more notoriously powerful options available to druids.


The Nymph druid is more MAD than the human druid. The human druid only cares about Wisdom for spellcasting - the Nymph needs Wisdom just as much, but is incentivized to invest in Charisma.
Physical stats really don't matter to a high-level druid, because of Wild Shape, only the Human druid has access to much better Wild Shape options than the Nymph does. Remember, Wild Shape gives you new physical ability scores, affecting two saves and your HP.


The Human Druid is massively superior to the Nymph LA +4 Druid at ECL 20. And at ECL 10. And pretty much any ECL you care to nominate, except for massively Epic levels where the LA can be bought off and/or is otherwise of minimal impact on the progression of class features.



If you want to compare at other than just minimum ECL, fine. Let's push it one more level to ECL 21 - the Human Druid 21 and the Nymph LA +4 Druid 11. Human Druid wins out massively.






Stunning Glance is okay, but it's a single target, standard action, at extremely close range, Save or Stun. If the Stun works, it's great ... but if it doesn't, you just blew a standard action on somebody who's about to melee you - and you aren't good in melee. And a lot of things are immune to Stun effects, and a lot of things that aren't natively immune work to become immune. And since it's a Fort save, you're going against the best save of a melee type.




Hold up. The Druid spell list is the weakest of the Big Three, by a substantial margin. The Cleric and Sorc/Wiz spell lists are straight better. Druids as a class manage to contend with Clerics and Wizards thanks to their class features.

[danielxcutter]

Everyone calling for +4 is really ignoring Wild Shape. It's literally a druid's greatest class feature. In some cases, it may even surpass the spellcasting. A nymph is simply not equivalent to a tenth level druid.

Sometimes I really, really wish I could play a Druid, just so I can feel how powerful they are first-hand. Nymphs do get really good defenses, but Wild Shape is really powerful even on paper...

Might be slightly off-topic, but how good is Druid spellcasting? To me it seems that they're somewhere in between the Wizard and Cleric, except with far less game-breakers. Among their 9ths, the only game-breaker is Shapechange, their blasting is weaker than the arcanists, and their buffs and healing spells are weaker than Clerics.

Without Wild Shape, they're a lot weaker. Even I know that. If it wasn't for the racial abilities being so good, we wouldn't be talking about whether they deserve higher than +2. Yes, Nymph racial abilities are really good; the problem is whether they're better than Wild Shape or animal companion progress.

[TotallyNotEvil]

In casting alone, at ECL 10 with 4 LA, it compares favorably to the Bard, and stomps the Warlock.

It has two At Will SoLs with DCs comparable to 5th level spells. At Will is a really important part here. And normal fourth level spells.

It has the skill points of a Rogue.

Its saves will be higher than pretty much anyone in the party, and keep rising. And they are boosted with spells which normally wouldn't boost saves.

It compares favorably to nigh any T3/4 class at level 10 if you slap +4 LA on it. That sounds like the balance point to me.

Not to mention, it only gets better with more levels. Much, much better.

Remember, at LA +4, she is at worst a couple levels behind the Druid. Such progressively loses meaning as you level.

Hell, the Sorcerer knows a single level 5 spell at ECL 10. Besides that one spell, she outcasts a sorcerer too. Her to SoLs might not be as potent as the best fifth level has to offer, but being at-will, and being flat out better at fourth level and lower, more than makes up for it.

[danielxcutter]

In casting alone, at ECL 10 with 4 LA, it compares favorably to the Bard, and stomps the Warlock.

It has two At Will SoLs with DCs comparable to 5th level spells. At Will is a really important part here.

It has the skill points of a Rogue.

Its saves will be higher than pretty much anyone in the party, and keep rising. And they are boosted with spells which normally wouldn't boost saves.

It compares favorably to nigh any T3/4 class at level 10 if you slap +4 LA on it. That sounds like the balance point to me.

Not to mention, it only gets better with more levels. Much, much better.

Remember, at LA +4, she is at worst a couple levels behind the Druid. Such progressively loses meaning as you level.

Yes, but we don't slap a +3 on Kobolds just because they can get 9th-level Sorcerer casting at ECL 20 with the Greater Rite of Passage.

[InvisibleBison]

It compares favorably to nigh any T3/4 class at level 10 if you slap +4 LA on it. That sounds like the balance point to me.

I don't think I agree with you. In general, I think T3/4 is a better balance point for monsters, but a nymph really needs to be compared to a druid because a nymph is a druid. She's swapped out a variety of nymph-power for druid-power, but based on the discussion in this thread so far that seems mostly a wash - she loses some good things (wild shape, animal companion) and gets some good things (save bonuses, AC, stun attack). Comparing her to a rogue, or even a bard, is misleading - a character who wants to play a nymph is likely to pass in favor of a druid if the nymph's LA makes her too much weaker than the druid.

[Nifft]

In casting alone, at ECL 10 with 4 LA, it compares favorably to the Bard, and stomps the Warlock.

Unless you're going to start slapping an LA on a human Druid, those aren't relevant comparisons.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yes, but we don't slap a +3 on Kobolds just because they can get 9th-level Sorcerer casting at ECL 20 with the Greater Rite of Passage.

Which is a completely different case?

At ECL 10 with LA +4, the point at which she is weakest, she is roughly as good at casting as a sorcerer. One has a single level 5 spell known, the other has two At Will SoLs with similar DCs to his one spell, and flat out better casting everything fourth level and bellow. Oh, and nigh unbeatable saves, and damm fine AC, and At Will Stoneskin.

At both ends of the spectrum, LA +4 compares favorably to all but the very strongest classes.

Compare her to a Druid then, she is a spell level behind in casting, but we are talking about ECL 10 here. She casts 4ths, he casts 5ths. Her fourths are cast at a DC 3 higher than his, which already goes a long, long way towards making up for the lack of 5ths.

She has two At Will SoLs with DCs comparable to 5th level spells, and effects not far behind either (2d4 rounds stun SR:No, AoE perma blind SR:No). She has outstanding saves, outstanding skills, outstanding AC, her DR which is essentially At Will Stone Skin (Su).

[danielxcutter]

Ironically, Druid casting is much more balanced than the other T1s. There are far less gamebreakers in their list - even their 9ths are a bit of a wash; aside of Shapechange they aren't that powerful. Psions get a better deal out of their 9ths.

[Nifft]

Which is a completely different case?

At ECL 10 with LA +4, the point at which she is weakest, she is roughly as good at casting as a sorcerer. One has a single level 5 spell known, the other has two At Will SoLs with similar DCs to his one spell, and flat out better casting everything fourth level and bellow. Oh, and nigh unbeatable saves, and damm fine AC, and At Will Stoneskin.

That's grossly misleading.

Sorcerers pick spells from the best list in the game, with the most general utility -- and then cast spontaneously from those choices. The spontaneous nature is strong -- probably over-valued by WotC, but nonetheless strong -- and the spell list is the best list in the game.

Druids prepare from a quirky, overly specific spell list. Druids cast spells like quench, rusting grasp, and tree stride.

Sorcerers cast spells like haste, dimension door, and dominate person.

Sorcerers are legitimately T2 based on their list alone -- because they don't get other features, and that doesn't matter because their list is just that good.

[TotallyNotEvil]

A 10th level sorcerer knows asingle fifth level spell, two fourth level ones.

DC 21~22 Fort vs 2d4 rounds of stun, SR:No, is already fifth level spell territory, easily. Now consider it's at will. Ranged, too.

She has Dim. Door as SLA, and her DR is essentially At Will Stone Skin, without damage cap.

That's two fourth level spells, one fifth level.

And we didn't even get to Druid 7 casting. Which, incidentally, includes preparing from the entire Druid list spells of up to 4th level.

You are proposing that getting 1.25 million GP's worth, trivially, or magic items from half of her racial feature is about as good as 8th level wild shape? With a bit of optimization, she gets more Deflection than the strongest Epic Ring of Protection. Which incidentally costs 2 million GP.

A creature which is better at casting than a Druid 7 should start at ECL 8. Now Add all racial abilities and see if they are worth +2 LA. Stunning Gaze and Blinding Beauty will work all the way to 20th, and are unlimited in use, unlike spellcasting, yet, as said, competitive.

Unearthly Grace is nigh on priceless due to untyped Bonus to saves on top of Epic Deflection.

Great mental stats, great DEX and courtesy CON bonus are just cherries on the awesome cake.

[Nifft]

Because a creature which is better at casting than a Druid 7 should start at ECL 8.

Nymphs are worse at casting than a Druid 7.

- No animal companion to buff with animal growth, magic fang, and the like.

- No Wild Shape to fly above the giant scorpion while murdering it from afar with call lightning and the like.

- Cannot spontaneously convert quirky choices into universally good SNAx spells (... until next level).

A Nymph is not as good at Druid casting as a real Druid would be.

I agree that Nymphs should start at ECL 8, but that's because in addition to not-quite-Druid casting, they also get (Su) attacks -- the blinding is very situational since it's NOT party-friendly, but he stun is legit.

Unlike a normal Druid, who relies only on Con + Wis, a Nymph lacks Wild Shape access, and she wants Dex + Con + Wis + Cha. Her bonuses to these stats does not fully compensate for the loss of Wild Shape, but it's solid.

[TotallyNotEvil]

... What does Animal Growth has to with a Druid 8?

What has Wild Shape to do with casting ability? From the same baseline, her spells have a DC three points higher than the Druid (8). That's better casting any way you cut it.

Add a single level of actual Druid, she now can Spontaneously Summon.

The one aspect in which she loses is the ability to punch people with bear hands. Since when was melee ability a deciding factor for full casters?

Her lack of Wild Shape which is, incidentally, much less important to someone close to full prepared caster with Bite of X on their spell list.

And also much less important when your enormous mental stat advantage and 6+Int skill take you through where no Average Druid goes. Besides giving you much harder to resist spells. Because monsters do, suprisingly, make their saves sometimes.

And also much less important when your actual AC should be as high of higher than the wild shaped druid.

Also much less important when your saves will be blowing everyone else's out of the water.

Oh, and you have DR 10 too. Which also makes lack of Wild Shape much less important, as you will be taking trivial damage most of the time.

[Celestia]

You are really over emphasizing the nymph's traits. Defenses are nice to have, but not game changers. 3.5 is a proactive game. You're never going to win by just not dying. It's easy to turn a mink into a tank, but the monk still sucks. And the nymph doesn't even get phenomenal defenses. Save bonuses and DR aren't exactly an impenetrable wall.

As for those two abilities you seem to imply are game breaking, they're really not. One of them has friendly fire, meaning it will usually do more harm than good. The only way it's useful is if you're surrounded by enemies with no allies in sight, and do you really want to throw your caster in such a situation? Oh, and it also only works against one creature type making it a niche within a niche. Not great.

The other one is legitimately good, except it's still inferior to standard casting. A single target save or lose, at best, allows you to take out one opponent per round. You know who else can accomplish that? Fighters. A basic charger build can deal enough damage to squash one enemy per round. That's called carrying your weight. And the nymph is actually worse at it because greatsword doesn't allow a saving throw. In the end, it's good but not great.

The only things really worth looking at are the spellcasting, the chassis, and the lost class features. The nymph comes out ahead, but not by much. +2 is all that's needed.

[zergling.exe]

Physical stats really don't matter to a high-level druid, because of Wild Shape, only the Human druid has access to much better Wild Shape options than the Nymph does. Remember, Wild Shape gives you new physical ability scores, affecting two saves and your HP.

Just pointing out that the only thing wild shape does for your HP is decrease it if you dumped Con. It doesn't affect your HP except for counting as rest.

[Thurbane]

Just feel I should chime in again to point out that both Stunning Glance and the slightly less impressive Blinding Beauty are both Su, so no SR applies, and are also not specified as mind-affecting or any other attack type that is easily defended against. Immunity to Stun and Blinding, respectively, are the only defenses. The range is pretty short, but they are still both very nice, especially since one doesn't even require an action to activate.

Back to the comparing to Druid deal: I'll just point out that even if the Nymph didn't have innate casting, I'll still be calling it (in the context of this thread) a strong LA +2.

I personally disagree that simply because it's most efficient class progression is Druid, that a Tier 1 class should be used as the base for its LA measurement.

There should be a consistent comparison guide being used across monsters, regardless of what the most efficient class for them to take might be. If we go back and compare a lot of the monsters already covered to Druid as a baseline, I feel like we would be lopping off LA left, right and center.

Feel free to disagree, but I can't see myself changing my mind on this particular point.

[Celestia]

I personally disagree that simply because it's most efficient class progression is Druid, that a Tier 1 class should be used as the base for its LA measurement.

There should be a consistent comparison guide being used across monsters, regardless of what the most efficient class for them to take might be. If we go back and compare a lot of the monsters already covered to Druid as a baseline, I feel like we would be lopping off LA left, right and center.

Feel free to disagree, but I can't see myself changing my mind on this particular point.

That is utterly absurd. Creatures should be compared to their most similar role. Rating all animals by their ability to climb trees is equal but not fair.