Babylon 5 Group Re-Watch!

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• A Day in the Strife
• Passing Through Gethsemane
• Voices of Authority

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[factotum]

Algeh, silly question: why do you just post the discussion schedule and then vanish for a week? Couldn't you add your own 2p worth to things?

[Algeh]

Algeh, silly question: why do you just post the discussion schedule and then vanish for a week? Couldn't you add your own 2p worth to things?

Because it turns out that my life has been really, really, REALLY busy the past few months, and I haven't had time to watch even a single episode of Babylon 5 for this re-watch. I meant to make time to at least watch one of hte episodes each week, but it just hasn't worked out.

(I bought a house. I am now cleaning it and moving in. Apparently, this takes all of the time ever, all of the money ever, and more patience and understanding than I possess. I'm also involved in the convention committee for a local SF con, and we're having assorted problems this year that I saw coming months ago but am still, for some reason, helping people pick up the pieces from even though they ignored my advice and warnings at an earlier juncture.)

I'm actually really frustrated, because Passing Through Gethsemane was one of my favorite episodes, but I haven't had a chance to do a solid re-watch of all of B5 for about a decade, so I'd be talking out of vague recollections and online episode guides rather than recent memory if I tried to talk about why.

(My current living situation, which has been my living situation for the last 6 or 7 years, means that I do not have a lot of space and a lot of my stuff is in storage. The only good place to watch tv here is in shared space, so I get limited time to watch things that I want to watch but other people don't. I also often have to stop watching solo things in the middle of an episode if someone else wants to watch sportsball. I am looking forward to getting this long-awaited move finished so I can again have control over the television and have it be quiet rather than sportsball when I am not watching tv.)

[factotum]

OK, fair enough. Hope things settle down for you soon.

(And yes, there's lots of reasons why buying a new house is considered one of the most stressful things you'll ever do!).

[tomandtish]

OK, fair enough. Hope things settle down for you soon.

(And yes, there's lots of reasons why buying a new house is considered one of the most stressful things you'll ever do!).

Oh yes. Reading through the hundreds of pages, wrist injury from all the signing, deciding what to keep and get rid of when you move...

I plan on doing it only once more in my life (when I pick the house I die in).

[factotum]

A Day in the Strife: An alien probe approaches the station with a bunch of questions that have to be answered inside 24 hours or the station will be destroyed--only it's not actually all about that, it's designed to destroy races that are technologically superior to its creator. Um, how is that supposed to work, exactly? If this probe had gone up to a Vorlon or Shadow-controlled station, pretty sure it would have been toast in seconds. Since we never hear again about these probes or the aliens who sent them, I think we can safely put that part of the episode in the "filler" section and move on.

There's a bit more meat in the scenes with G'Kar trying to stamp his authority on the station, despite the other Narn having been told their families were at risk if they help him. G'Kar himself is barely recognisable from the guy we saw in the first few episodes of season 1--you actually believe this guy could be a believable leader and even prophet, as he becomes later.

Oh, and Franklin stims yada yada yada.

Passing Through Gethsemane: Lyta returns properly now, complete with fancy gills allowing her to breathe Vorlon air--which Dr. Franklin somehow fails to find during an exhaustive medical where he notes that she's even lost scars from childhood injuries.

That's a side issue to a truly moving storyline, though. One of Brother Theo's monks (Edward, played with unusual subtlety by Brad Dourif) is having odd dreams and tries to find out what's going on. Despite Theo getting the station staff to look in to it, Edward finds out first that he was a serial killer nine years ago, and underwent the "death of personality" punishment we've heard about before. The reason he's been having the dreams is because relatives of his victims have hired a Centauri telepath to reawaken memories of his previous life, so he remembers what he did before they kill him themselves. And then one of them is caught, himself gets the death of personality, and is welcomed into the Order by Brother Theo--somewhat to Sheridan's consternation, it must be said.

This story is easily one of the best non-arc ones in the show's history, IMHO. There's a strong message about forgiveness, but it never comes across as trite or forced.

Voices of Authority: Ivanova and Marcus go to speak to the aliens at Sigma 957, who we last saw accidentally nearly killing Catherine Sakai back in season 1--the objective is to get the remaining First Ones on-side in the coming war with the Shadows. Ivanova finds them by using the Great Machine, during which she also hears President Clark talking with someone who sounds like Morden about assassinating the previous president.

We also have a "political officer" being assigned to B5, who is so determined to find out what's going on there that she tries to seduce Sheridan. We never see or hear from this woman again, but the mere fact that someone like her is assigned to the station shows how the political wind is blowing back home.

Overall: the two flanking episodes are not the strongest ones, IMHO, but Passing Through Gethsemane is awesome enough to make up for that.

[Darth Ultron]

A Day in the Strife

This episode gives a look at how the various plots and characters are transitioning from the recent important events into everyday life.

Things that don't Make Sense

*Thug Trader- So this guy shows up to the meeting with a big spiked weapon. Sure Sheridan and all the guards have guns...but still you don't let people carry around big, real weapons like that.

*Security Bot- Wonder why we see 'maintenance bot' camera images after they send the Security Bot over to take a look. Did they send a Security And Maintenance bot?

*Poor Doc Franklin- He says he works stretches of 36 hours.....that is a huge long time. I don't think folks like doctors can just 'keep working' like that...there are work rules. I guess as Franklin is the boss he can break the rules.

*The Universal Translator- Wow, in a couple hours the 'computer' translates the probes language no problem. And not only the easy stuff like ''up'' and ''down'' and ''home'', but also insane crazy advanced hard core science and such things. Just the concepts of things like 'an atom' is something hard to communicate to people, and there are hundreds of such questions.

*Poor Alien Patient- So, why can't the magic computer Universal Translator work on the poor hurt alien in med lab?

*Probe Scan- Er, so how did the probe know that the Babylon 5 computer decoded and translated the message?

*Ta'Lon and the Blood Kanna- Ok, so at the end of the Epsiode G'Kar makes a huge big deal that the super special blood sword ''must draw blood once it is drawn from it's sheath'' and Ta'Lon does the big ''tough guy thing'' and cuts himself so he does not break the blood rule. But...Ta'Lon has the exact same sword like ten minutes before that when all the Narn are about to attack Na'Far and he draws the sword. We don't see him cut anyone with the sword then.....so what about the big super special rule? Or did Ta'Lon just walk off camera and cut himself?

*Hand Cut- Ok, so Ta'Lon is all about ''the sword must cut and draw blood'', but why the palm of his hand? People use their hands to do and hold lots of important things. Why not just make a cut elsewhere on his body? Or maybe do just a ''cut on the forearm'' like a teenage cutter? Or is there some sort of blood sword cutting rules?

*The ''just one bot'' sure looks like two bots...

*The Probe of Doom- Well, the probe transmits it's hello and then waits for someone to translate it. The the probe 'locks on' to the place that did the translating. Then it asks it's hundreds of questions and gives the threat that it will blow up if any answers are wrong...or guess if no answer is given and gives a time limit. But it's a lie as the probe will just fly away if any answer is wrong or the people are just dumb. This does not seem so effective. Even assuming everyone can magic translate the probes message, if they only answer 399 questions...the probe will just be ''oh well and zip away''?

*Message Bot- So, right at the end, the message bot sends all the right answers to the Probe of Doom. But, er, what about the countdown and the suspense and the time to answer the questions and the Threat of Doom? The Probe just gets the answers and blows up!

Final-C, This episode had a lot going on, but none of it was hugely important at the moment. We can see how the characters are rearranging their relationships and how they might be positioning themselves for the future. The large issues in the series remained status quo.

[Rodin]

*Security Bot- Wonder why we see 'maintenance bot' camera images after they send the Security Bot over to take a look. Did they send a Security And Maintenance bot?

*The ''just one bot'' sure looks like two bots...

According to JMS, these were both whoopsies on their part. I guess the writing team and the graphics team had a miscommunication.

*Poor Doc Franklin- He says he works stretches of 36 hours.....that is a huge long time. I don't think folks like doctors can just 'keep working' like that...there are work rules. I guess as Franklin is the boss he can break the rules.

Happens all the time in real life. Without going into it too much (because forum rules), it's a pretty big political issue in the UK right now.

In-universe, there may well be regs against this. The one in charge of enforcing those regs on Medlab is...Dr. Franklin. Doh. As we see when Garibaldi confronts his second, Franklin's staff are loyal enough to not rat him out to anyone with higher authority.

*Message Bot- So, right at the end, the message bot sends all the right answers to the Probe of Doom. But, er, what about the countdown and the suspense and the time to answer the questions and the Threat of Doom? The Probe just gets the answers and blows up!

This was answered in the episode. The countdown and suspense and timer is to scare the alien race that discovers the probe into answering the questions. The offer of advanced tech is to encourage them to do so. Stick and carrot. If they cannot do so, they aren't advanced enough for the probe to care about and it buggers off to its next target. If they do answer, the probe immediately blows up to try and destroy the alien race that did the answering.

Of course, as everyone has pointed out this is kinda stupid for a lot of reasons. The explosion isn't big enough to threaten a planet let alone a spacegoing civilization. Any civilization advanced enough to answer the questions will be big enough to have multiple colonies, rendering the probe pretty useless.

[Olinser]

A Day in the Strife

This episode gives a look at how the various plots and characters are transitioning from the recent important events into everyday life.

Things that don't Make Sense

*Thug Trader- So this guy shows up to the meeting with a big spiked weapon. Sure Sheridan and all the guards have guns...but still you don't let people carry around big, real weapons like that.

*Security Bot- Wonder why we see 'maintenance bot' camera images after they send the Security Bot over to take a look. Did they send a Security And Maintenance bot?

*Poor Doc Franklin- He says he works stretches of 36 hours.....that is a huge long time. I don't think folks like doctors can just 'keep working' like that...there are work rules. I guess as Franklin is the boss he can break the rules.

*The Universal Translator- Wow, in a couple hours the 'computer' translates the probes language no problem. And not only the easy stuff like ''up'' and ''down'' and ''home'', but also insane crazy advanced hard core science and such things. Just the concepts of things like 'an atom' is something hard to communicate to people, and there are hundreds of such questions.

*Poor Alien Patient- So, why can't the magic computer Universal Translator work on the poor hurt alien in med lab?

*Probe Scan- Er, so how did the probe know that the Babylon 5 computer decoded and translated the message?

*Ta'Lon and the Blood Kanna- Ok, so at the end of the Epsiode G'Kar makes a huge big deal that the super special blood sword ''must draw blood once it is drawn from it's sheath'' and Ta'Lon does the big ''tough guy thing'' and cuts himself so he does not break the blood rule. But...Ta'Lon has the exact same sword like ten minutes before that when all the Narn are about to attack Na'Far and he draws the sword. We don't see him cut anyone with the sword then.....so what about the big super special rule? Or did Ta'Lon just walk off camera and cut himself?

*Hand Cut- Ok, so Ta'Lon is all about ''the sword must cut and draw blood'', but why the palm of his hand? People use their hands to do and hold lots of important things. Why not just make a cut elsewhere on his body? Or maybe do just a ''cut on the forearm'' like a teenage cutter? Or is there some sort of blood sword cutting rules?

*The ''just one bot'' sure looks like two bots...

*The Probe of Doom- Well, the probe transmits it's hello and then waits for someone to translate it. The the probe 'locks on' to the place that did the translating. Then it asks it's hundreds of questions and gives the threat that it will blow up if any answers are wrong...or guess if no answer is given and gives a time limit. But it's a lie as the probe will just fly away if any answer is wrong or the people are just dumb. This does not seem so effective. Even assuming everyone can magic translate the probes message, if they only answer 399 questions...the probe will just be ''oh well and zip away''?

*Message Bot- So, right at the end, the message bot sends all the right answers to the Probe of Doom. But, er, what about the countdown and the suspense and the time to answer the questions and the Threat of Doom? The Probe just gets the answers and blows up!

Final-C, This episode had a lot going on, but none of it was hugely important at the moment. We can see how the characters are rearranging their relationships and how they might be positioning themselves for the future. The large issues in the series remained status quo.

It's not a big spiked weapon. It's a multi-headed mechanical tool that we use right now - its basically a crowbar, pryer, and sledgehammer in 1 tool so you can carry 1 big shaft item instead of 3 or 4. And many of the other guys in the crowd had their tools so its not surprising.

That's the entire point of the probe - they have to translate the language and answer the questions in less than a day to be enough of a threat for them to act on. And it's a pretty solid plan - from the major races we've seen probably only 5 are even capable of doing it - the Humans, Minbari, Vorlons, Shadows and MAYBE the Centauri.

And Franklin was explicitly pissed off that he was waiting for a translator for 30 minutes and couldn't communicate. The automatic translator took HOURS to translate the probe's language despite having a huge sample to work with - its no use for a critical patient that can barely talk.

The probe didn't know, and wasn't required to know. It came upon an artificial construction and broadcast the message. They explicitly said within the episode after translating that they now only had X hours left. The probe left after 24 hours because it got no response - and would have done the same if they'd just ignored it and never translated the message.

Seriously, did you even WATCH the episode? Sheridan explicitly explains what the probe is doing. The entire threat and countdown is designed to force them to act and not really have enough time to think it through. It ONLY explodes if given 100% of the correct answers. It's a program, it doesn't think. So yes, if it got 1 answer short, it would leave exactly as if it had gotten 0 correct answers. And presumably if it got wrong answers it wouldn't explode either. Because its an automated probe with rather basic functions, not an AI.

[Rodin]

And Franklin was explicitly pissed off that he was waiting for a translator for 30 minutes and couldn't communicate. The automatic translator took HOURS to translate the probe's language despite having a huge sample to work with - its no use for a critical patient that can barely talk.

It is a little bit weird that the translator program didn't already have the language for the patient translated to begin with. With the probe, it's trying to decipher a new language from what is essentially a Rosetta Stone. For the patient's language, it's pretty safe to assume that he's one of the League aliens and Babylon 5's computers should have ample experience with translating it. Like with Babelfish, syntax may be a bit screwy, but it should be able to get across "My spleen hurts".

Heck, we see other races like the Gaim with handheld translators that translate clicks and hisses into English on the fly. The tech is clearly there in-universe, so Medlab not having access to it is a bit baffling.

[Darth Ultron]

This was answered in the episode. The countdown and suspense and timer is to scare the alien race that discovers the probe into answering the questions. The offer of advanced tech is to encourage them to do so. Stick and carrot. If they cannot do so, they aren't advanced enough for the probe to care about and it buggers off to its next target. If they do answer, the probe immediately blows up to try and destroy the alien race that did the answering.

Ok....the Probe moves through space until it finds intelligent life. Then the Probe floats nearby and waits for the life forms to understand it's message. Then the Probe using it's magic Omni-Sensors ''knows'' the exact second a life form has translated and understood it's message...and it arms itself. It then waits it's arbitrary time limit. If it gets the answers it goes Boom, if not it flies away.

So the Probe was back at the first step ''flying through space looking for intelligent life''. When a robot came out of nowhere, sent it all the answers and the Probe just ''Blewbamoowmaoup!''. Well, the Probe was back in stage one ''find life and send the message'' and ''get answers and go boom''. Unless the Probe was ''alive bio tech'' or ''artificial intelligence'' or something.

Of course, as everyone has pointed out this is kinda stupid for a lot of reasons.

Not to mention you'd piss off ''race X'' and they might come after the Probe makers.

It's not a big spiked weapon. It's a multi-headed mechanical tool that we use right now - its basically a crowbar, pryer, and sledgehammer in 1 tool so you can carry 1 big shaft item instead of 3 or 4. And many of the other guys in the crowd had their tools so its not surprising.

Ok, a ''tool'' that can be used as a weapon. So do say workers with big tools show up to ''talk and negotiate'' like ten feet from the governor? Or do security/cop say ''oh sorry you can't carry that sledge hammer(or pitch fork or five foot long wrench) '' in here and ''dis-tool'' the person?

And Franklin was explicitly pissed off that he was waiting for a translator for 30 minutes and couldn't communicate. The automatic translator took HOURS to translate the probe's language despite having a huge sample to work with - its no use for a critical patient that can barely talk.

But if it's hours for a language, they might be able to get ''my head hurts'' in like five minutes. Plus was this ''Alien Bob''s first time ever encounter with humans? If not they could have had the translation on file.

Seriously, did you even WATCH the episode? Sheridan explicitly explains what the probe is doing. The entire threat and countdown is designed to force them to act and not really have enough time to think it through. It ONLY explodes if given 100% of the correct answers. It's a program, it doesn't think. So yes, if it got 1 answer short, it would leave exactly as if it had gotten 0 correct answers. And presumably if it got wrong answers it wouldn't explode either. Because its an automated probe with rather basic functions, not an AI.

But if it's just a program it would follow the path: find life, wait for translation, arm self, wait for answers, then leave or blow up.

At the end it's probe is searching, gets all the answers out of nowhere and blows up.

The real reason is to ''prove'' Sheridan is right and end the plot with a ''bang!''

[tomandtish]

*Poor Doc Franklin- He says he works stretches of 36 hours.....that is a huge long time. I don't think folks like doctors can just 'keep working' like that...there are work rules. I guess as Franklin is the boss he can break the rules.

Happens all the time in real life. Without going into it too much (because forum rules), it's a pretty big political issue in the UK right now.

In-universe, there may well be regs against this. The one in charge of enforcing those regs on Medlab is...Dr. Franklin. Doh. As we see when Garibaldi confronts his second, Franklin's staff are loyal enough to not rat him out to anyone with higher authority.

Happens quite often here in the US as well. One of my friends is currently on the ER rotation at a hospital in Kansas. She pulls 30-36 hour shifts 5-6 times a month (on top of her normal 12 hour days the rest of the time).

Are they supposed to? No. But it happens anyway.

Now part of the issue in Franklin's case is that he doesn't NEED to pull those shifts (as we find out). He's choosing to. And as pointed out, since he runs the department there's no one to really get him in trouble over it (until things go sideways with his addiction issues).

[Darth Ultron]

Passing Through Gethsemane

A former serial killer is tracked down by his victims' relatives.

*Electric Bleachers- This episode has the famous Electric Bleachers line. According to JMS this line comes directly from Jerry Dole (the actor that portrays Garibaldi). One day at lunch JMS overheard Jerry say it, and thought it was a good line, and he 'stole it' and wrote it into the show for Garibaldi to say.


Things that don't Make Sense

*Mix up- So CNC calls Invoniva to say ''Ambasador Kosh just came out of hyperspace and wants you to meet him in bay 13''. Sounds like Kosh is on the ship, right? But when Invoniva gets to bay 13, Kosh is lurking in she shadows. So did he...somehow...jump off his ship before it docked? Or was he hiding on the station the whole time? Did he like tell everyone ''I'm going home'', send his ship away empty, and then hide to make everyone think he left on the ship?

*Bablyon Goggle- Tomas search will take four hours?! If there was a ''black rose killer'', just those words in Goggle would get a hit...after you sifted through the add for The Black Rose flower shop and the result for ''how to kill rose bushes".

*Big Brother- Garibaldi's ''checks'' the system records and can tell who ''accessed'' ''what'' information.

*Mind Wipe- So they say ''mind wipe' or 'erase' the memories for the Death of Personality. Sounds like the old memories are gone. But then the Centari telepath ''finds'' them and ''stimulates'' them. Sounds more the the procedure is a ''mind suppression'' or ''mind memory alteration'' or ''amnesia'' then a ''mindwipe''. Or is ''mindwipe'' and ''erase'' just ''slang''?

*Mindwipe Protection? -Well, I'd think a lot of people would want ''revenge'' if a criminal was ''just mindwiped'' . Plus, a lot of people would not ''forgive'' a criminal, even if they had a ''nice, new personality''. So there must be a ''mindwipe criminal protection'' to ''hide'' them, right? Even just ''normal'' criminals would have their face all over ISN/Universe Today right, not to mention the big famous ones.

Plus how do you stop the poor mindwiped person from seeing some ''old crime stuff'' and going ''wow, that killer guy there looks exactly like me."

*Waiting at Gethsemane-Ok, so Brother Tomas has the ''courage'' to wait at the chaplet, but then how do they get him to the Brown 42 Murder Spot? Does Tomas just go willing? Guess no one sees them.

*Alien Telepaths- Yet again, this episode shows the problem with alien telepaths. As aliens are not part of the Earth Psi Core, they don't have to follow the ''play nice'' rules and can telepathicaly do whatever they want. So, why don't we see more alien telepaths taking over the universe?

*Breaking' the Law- Yet again, this episode shows the ''good guys'' breaking the law and rules to do whatever they ''feel'' or ''think'' is arbitrarily ''right'' at the moment. And this is exactly why laws exist: so people can't just play god. You can't just toss out or ignore a law if you don't like it or just make ''one'' exception a day or week or such. Worse, we know Sheridan and the rest support the law: they would say ''people must follow the law like robot zombies'' endlessly....oh, but it is ok for them to break the law as it's special and they are special....everyone else must obey.

And, really, this is typical of TV characters. The vast majority of the TV ''good guys'' will break the rules and laws for ''good reasons'' and then somehow come out ''smelling like daises'' at the end. And people love the ''great good character that breaks the law to do the right thing...in their eyes" . But it is such a slippery slope....to say ''oh people can break the law, if they do good and I agree with them''...

Worst of all though, while it's perfectly ok to break the law to try and save Brother Tomas....it's suddenly ''wrong'' to break the law the other dozen or more times they could have saved other lives. Why?

*Telepath Law- So, if the good guy main characters were just normal law abiding people, there would be nothing they could do to the Centari Telepath guy? Because ''earth has no jurisdiction over alien telepaths?'' But if a alien telepath commits a crime they don't just get away with it as they are a telepath, right? If you break the law, you break the law. Like say an alien telepath mind controlled a bank teller to give him a trillion dollars, that would still be theft right?

*Need to Know- wonder why the Angry Mob felt the need to tell their Hired Alien Telepath where the big revenge murder was going to take place. Did they invite him to watch?

*Bag Head- So they (the good guys, remember) do the ''evil fascist dictatorship '' move of putting a bag over the Centari Telepaths head. So he can't see Lyta. But they do mind meld...so he'd 'know' her from that, right? And she is dumb enough to speak, so he knows her voice. Plus it's not so hard to figure out ''who is a rogue human telepath'' on the station. Or did Lyta ''mindwipe'' him......

*Crazy Swift Justice- So, Revenge Killer Guy gets accused, put on trial and mindwiped in like what....a couple days? And sure he ''says he did it'', so, um, does that mean you just skip the trial and just punish a person as they ''said they did it?'' This is some top level fascist dictatorship stuff right here.....

*Brother's Things- So, Brother Theo waited several days (weeks?) before going through Brother Tomas stuff and finding the little gift bird?

*Mindwipe? -So Revenge Killer Guy, who as far as we know is just a simple tailor or other normal person with no criminal record....gets mindwhiped for just one murder? Seems a bit much.

*Mob Justice? - So did anyone else in the Angry Mob get charged with anything? Conspiracy to commit murder? Aiding and abetting a murder? Something? Wonder if they all got mindwiped too?

B5 Midwipe? -So B5 has the mindwipe place on the station? Like Revenge Killer Guy is ''not put on trial as he is so guilty'' and then ''mindwiped'' in like a couple days on B5. Then Brother Theo can surprise Sheridan with Brother Malcolm (aka Revenge Killer Guy). And then Brother Malcolm heads off to Earth to train how to be a monk.

Or...did Revenge Killer Guy go all the way back to Earth, was found to be guilty with no real trial, get mindwiped, then Brother Theo had him brought all the way back out to B5 just so he could stun Sheridan and then send him back home to monk school.

*Forgiveness? - Well, this episode sort of says ''we'' should forgive killers for the crimes they do. But also has the idea that mindwiping a killer into a new person makes them a new person. But you can't have it both ways. If the person is a ''new person'' then you can't forgive them for what the ''old person'' did, right? And it's a bit awkward to ''forgive'' someone who can't remember ''why you'd want to forgive them''.

*Vorlon Ride Along-The Vorlon's ability to 'possess' someone and hide seems like an awesome ability. A Vorlon can move around in their host and watch and learn. And it's perfect for a place like B5. Wonder why we have never seen this ability before? Wonder why Kosh did not get an aide like the other ambassadors did? And, sure, it is possible that the Vorlon's sent Secret Agent Dexter Morgan so Kosh could do the ride along...but why did not they show us that or give us a teaser hint?

Final-c, This episode is deeply tragic, and touches on a whole host of ethical and spiritual questions relating to the death of personality punishment and souls. But it's still just a box, filler episode.

[tomandtish]

A former serial killer is tracked down by his victims' relatives.

*Electric Bleachers- This episode has the famous Electric Bleachers line. According to JMS this line comes directly from Jerry Dole (the actor that portrays Garibaldi). One day at lunch JMS overheard Jerry say it, and thought it was a good line, and he 'stole it' and wrote it into the show for Garibaldi to say.

If you ever looked at Jerry's website, this was definitely not acting on his part (let's not go further and violate forum rules).

Things that don't Make Sense

*Mix up- So CNC calls Invoniva to say ''Ambasador Kosh just came out of hyperspace and wants you to meet him in bay 13''. Sounds like Kosh is on the ship, right? But when Invoniva gets to bay 13, Kosh is lurking in she shadows. So did he...somehow...jump off his ship before it docked? Or was he hiding on the station the whole time? Did he like tell everyone ''I'm going home'', send his ship away empty, and then hide to make everyone think he left on the ship?

*Big Brother- Garibaldi's ''checks'' the system records and can tell who ''accessed'' ''what'' information.

That's not that uncommon even today, especially if you aren't using your personal computer. The system may be in Brother Edward's quarters, but given it is built into the wall it is probably station property. It's pretty standard that you have no expectation of privacy when using other people's computers (esp. if it belongs to a business or government agency). It may be concerning, but it makes perfect sense.

*Need to Know- wonder why the Angry Mob felt the need to tell their Hired Alien Telepath where the big revenge murder was going to take place. Did they invite him to watch?

Why would they need to tell him? He's perfectly capable of reading it, and given he's willing to commit what is probably a crime in the first place, reading his employers should be expected.

*Mindwipe? -So Revenge Killer Guy, who as far as we know is just a simple tailor or other normal person with no criminal record....gets mindwhiped for just one murder? Seems a bit much.

Premeditated murder with what appears to be torture attached to it? People certainly get executed for only one such murder in this day and age. And it may be a more common person since they don't technically kill anybody (YMMV whether that is better or worse).

*Vorlon Ride Along-The Vorlon's ability to 'possess' someone and hide seems like an awesome ability. A Vorlon can move around in their host and watch and learn. And it's perfect for a place like B5. Wonder why we have never seen this ability before? Wonder why Kosh did not get an aide like the other ambassadors did? And, sure, it is possible that the Vorlon's sent Secret Agent Dexter Morgan so Kosh could do the ride along...but why did not they show us that or give us a teaser hint?

As we learn, she agreed to the procedure that allowed it. Possible no one else has agreed before AND been found suitable/worthy. May also be a case that it wasn't seen as necessary until B5 started taking a more active role in current events (and remember, she went to Vorlon space right after the Talia incident, so they've been working on her for a while.

[Rodin]

As we learn, she agreed to the procedure that allowed it. Possible no one else has agreed before AND been found suitable/worthy. May also be a case that it wasn't seen as necessary until B5 started taking a more active role in current events (and remember, she went to Vorlon space right after the Talia incident, so they've been working on her for a while.

The immediate counter-example is Sheridan, who gets a piece of Kosh attached to him at...some point. I don't think we ever see when. Point is, he wasn't modified and didn't consent but could still carry along a Vorlon.

Maybe Lyta needed to be modified to carry a full Vorlon instead of a detached piece?

Also, given Darth Kosh's reaction when he finds out nobody else was present when Kosh died, it certainly appears that splitting themselves up that way isn't common or easy. If Vorlons routinely divided their souls Horcrux style, Darth Kosh would not have given up on Kosh as quickly as he did.

[factotum]

The immediate counter-example is Sheridan, who gets a piece of Kosh attached to him at...some point. I don't think we ever see when.

We see Sheridan dream of his father speaking to him in Kosh's words, it's presumably at that moment that the "attachment" happens. There wouldn't have been any reason for Kosh to attempt to implant part of himself in Sheridan before that moment, because:

Spoiler

Show

That's in the episode where Kosh dies, of course.

[Rodin]

We see Sheridan dream of his father speaking to him in Kosh's words, it's presumably at that moment that the "attachment" happens. There wouldn't have been any reason for Kosh to attempt to implant part of himself in Sheridan before that moment, because:

Spoiler

Show

That's in the episode where Kosh dies, of course.

It's implied that Kosh was already there, since Kosh was able to send him the prophetic dream while he was trapped on that alien ship. Kosh didn't send the message across however many light years that required - it was the bit inside Sheridan that spoke to him. Hence the "I have always been here".

[factotum]

OK, that's a good point, I'd forgotten that episode.

[Darth Ultron]

It's implied that Kosh was already there, since Kosh was able to send him the prophetic dream while he was trapped on that alien ship. Kosh didn't send the message across however many light years that required - it was the bit inside Sheridan that spoke to him. Hence the "I have always been here".

OK....Vorlon conspiracy time. Like I have said, they have been manipulating the galaxy forever. And they have been doing so forever. The Vorlon's are more then advanced enough to have both advanced prophecy and time travel...and more so have had them for a long, long, long time.

But it's the last 1,000 years that really is the star, so....deep breath:

Michael Sinclair is Valen and knows galactic history, and more so Earth and Babylon 5 history up until mid 2261. Then Mike goes back in time 1,000 years. And Sinclair meets up with the Vorlon's of 1261 and specifically meets (re-meets) Kosh. We know Valen keeps a LOT from the Minbari, but he does make the three case system and the Grey Council and he does leave a lot of vague prophecies.

Now the Vorlon's of 1261 are already an Advanced Powerful Race of First Ones. So they have both advanced prophecy and time travel, as well has tons of other powers like telepathy. They also understand the complexities of time travel and such important sci-fi reality things.

So you can say either Michael/Valen simply tells Kosh/the Vorlons all about the next 1,000 years....more specifically ''2220-2261 Earth time'' or Kosh (or another sneaky Vorlon or six read his mind. Either way Kosh and the Vorlons know everything. But they are way smart enough to know they ''should not'' mess with the Timeline too much....but that is just fine as the Vorlon's in general don't directly mess with the galaxy much in the open anyway.

So this takes us back to the Vorlons making sure that everything Michale Valen knew happens. So, for example, they make sure the Great Machine is built on Epsilon Three, that the Great Machine has a flux capacitor so it can make time travel windows, they make sure the alien builders go away, they make sure the Bablyon Station Project builds the stations there and they make sure the alien caretaker will live until 2258 (Earth Time).

And following the sneaky Time Travel Rules, as long as the Vorlons stick to manipulating stuff very carefully, behind the curtain, they won't alter the time line. After all Michael Valen did not/does not know if they did the first time. But as long as the Vorlon's are careful, everything will work out.

And they also do tons of other things. Like for example, Kosh knows all about Sheridan before John is even born(like for hundereds of years before his birth). So it would not be so hard for Kosh to set an alarm to ''go to Earth and drop off a piece of himself the second little Johnny is born.'' And then sneak back into the night and wait to ''meet'' Sheridan for the first time (not) in 2259.

And this makes the line Kosh says ''I have always been here'' true.......just Sheridan did not know all the details.

[Pippa the Pixie]

OK....Vorlon conspiracy time.

Humm, you have given this a lot of thought.

[Rodin]

Humm, you have given this a lot of thought.

Well, apart from attributing the whole thing to NFL player Michael Sinclair instead of Babylon 5 character Jeffrey Sinclair.

[Darth Ultron]

Voices of Authority

Sheridan's coalition begins searching for the First Ones and incidentally discovers incriminating evidence about the assassination of President Santiago.


*Julie Musante- She really is a great character. Her propaganda is extremely fine-tuned. Almost everything Musante says seems reasonable at first blush and is difficult to argue against. She describes pointing out mistakes the government has made as "embarrassing our leaders", for example. She takes reasonable-sounding ideas to the extreme, which is the problem. But her propaganda sounds so good that it's difficult to resist it, especially for an everyday person, like we see with Zack. I cringed everytime Musante said "ideological purity", since it seems like such an obvious sign of a zealot, but other zealots seem to appreciate that kind of speech. Otherwise, she was a very strong character, able to think on her feet well, and not willing to take any crap from people she considered to be subordinate.

Too bad we never see her again.

*Zack gets some good mileage in this episode, with the running joke about his uniform not fitting, as well as his increasing dissatisfaction with both the Night Watch and Garibaldi. He's clearly very uncomfortable with the measures that the Night Watch is starting to take

Things that don't Make Sense


*Plug In- So Drall has read all the Great Machines First Ones logs. But instead of just telling what he read or say downloading the data into a crystal, he is like ''oh I need a human to come down to the planet and plug themselves into the Machine. ''

*Voice of Doom- So does no one recognize Morden's voice in the recording?

*Official Call- So, why does Clark use an ''official super secret code channel '' to make his Call of Evil?

*Floating Head- So are the Sigma 957 First Ones the Olmec gods?

Final- C, This episode has a lot of set-up in it for future events. Just as the Shadows are gathering their forces, our heroes are also making powerful allies. From all appearances, they will need more help than from just the Sigma 957 First Ones, but finding them is a first step.

[Rodin]

*Voice of Doom- So does no one recognize Morden's voice in the recording?

I never noticed, and I've heard Morden speak a lot more than most of the characters in the show. The only one of the main Earthforce cast to have really dealt with Morden is Sheridan, and even then for only a few days. It's not unreasonable that they didn't recognize the voice from a couple of disembodied sentences.

[Algeh]

This week, we'll be discussing:

• Dust to Dust
• Exogenesis

Feel free to discuss anything from the Babylon 5 series without using spoiler tags if you so choose. Please continue to use spoiler tags for things unrelated to Babylon 5 as you would in any other media thread.

[factotum]

Dust to Dust: Any episode with Bester being Bester (seriously, Walter Koenig is a seriously under-rated actor) is usually fun, and this one does not disappoint. We have a suggestion that Talia Winters has been dissected, but of course we don't know if that's real or is Bester trying to put the frighteners on the command staff--bit of a moot point since we're never going to see her again either way. Oh, and apparently Psi-Corps have created an addictive drug that can leave people catatonic or dead, purely in order to try and permanently induce telepathy in non-telepaths...lovely people, ain't they?

Oh, and note that Kosh says that line "I have always been here" again when he appears to G'Kar, so that kind of makes it less likely that it meant "I have always been in your mind" when he said it in Sheridan's dream.

Exogenesis: Just to note, the word "exogenesis" is a real one which basically means that life evolved elsewhere and somehow spread across space to Earth, rather than independently arising here. I'm not quite sure why JMS chose that name for this episode, because that's not really what's happening here? The alien parasites are spreading knowledge across the galaxy rather than life, so I suppose it's analogous in a way--although they've clearly managed to keep knowledge of their own existence quite secret during these travels, since neither Franklin nor Marcus have ever heard of them.

B plot: Ivanova is supposed to check if Lt. Corwin is suitable for "the conspiracy of light", but he gets the wrong end of the stick and thinks she's asking him on a date. He turns up with flowers, which, on realising his error, he says he just found outside the door. Later on, when Franklin asks her to give Marcus a second chance, she believes *he* left the flowers, so she angrily returns them to him--leading to him thinking that she's just given him flowers. Oh, those hilarious lovebirds, will they get anything right?

[Darth Ultron]

Dust to Dust

Bester visits the station to chase down a dangerous drug dealer.

Best Bester- He is really great in this episode. He comes off as a ''good guy'', just one that does not exactly agree with the Main Cast of heroes. Of course, the viewer is not exactly sure if that is the real Bester or if Bester is just lying...or is it somewhere in the middle. And it sure is nice when Bester points out that his badge and uniform are intimidating....just like Garibaldi. It is worth noting that when Bester describes himself as "just," there is absolutely nothing facetious in his voice or face. Bester truly believes that his work is just and necessary.

Vorlon Visions- Well, the vision that Kosh gives G'kar is flat out complete manipulation. It seems a bit odd if you just ''think it came out of nowhere'', but sure does fit in with the Vorlon Conspiracy. And Kosh sure does like the 'I am your father' trick. And it has the nice call back to season one when Kosh mentions the Narn as a ''dying race'', but it is interesting that Kosh does give G'kar a chance to change that...

Things that don't Make Sense

*So what is that odd ''transport'' ship Bester arrives on the station in?

*So Sheridan turns up right at the exact second to save Bester.

*So Delenn comes up with half a dozen Minbari telepaths in like a couple hours. Maybe there was a convention on the station?

*Doc Franklin ''does so research'' and finds the Anti-telepath drug? Is this some sort of secret? Earthforce would know the drug formula, right?

*G'Kar's door- As soon as he is dusted up, and half turns...the door opens. Like the door knows he wants to leave somehow? Or does the dust open doors?

*This might be the only time B5 security uses the 'sound stun' trick....that you'd think would be more common.

*Scry? -So.....how does Kosh know about G'Kar even using the dust? Is Kosh using some sort of psionic scrying to watch things happening on the station? Or maybe Kosh has psionic prophecy powers to see the future?

*60 days?- For two violent assault and mind rape, G'Kar gets 60 days in jail? Guess he is also lucky B5 has a long term jail and he does not get sent off the station.


Final- B, Any time ruthless Psi Cop Al Bester comes to the station, it is bad news for the regulars... and very good news for the viewer.

[Olinser]

Dust to Dust

Bester visits the station to chase down a dangerous drug dealer.

Best Bester- He is really great in this episode. He comes off as a ''good guy'', just one that does not exactly agree with the Main Cast of heroes. Of course, the viewer is not exactly sure if that is the real Bester or if Bester is just lying...or is it somewhere in the middle. And it sure is nice when Bester points out that his badge and uniform are intimidating....just like Garibaldi. It is worth noting that when Bester describes himself as "just," there is absolutely nothing facetious in his voice or face. Bester truly believes that his work is just and necessary.

Vorlon Visions- Well, the vision that Kosh gives G'kar is flat out complete manipulation. It seems a bit odd if you just ''think it came out of nowhere'', but sure does fit in with the Vorlon Conspiracy. And Kosh sure does like the 'I am your father' trick. And it has the nice call back to season one when Kosh mentions the Narn as a ''dying race'', but it is interesting that Kosh does give G'kar a chance to change that...

Things that don't Make Sense

*So what is that odd ''transport'' ship Bester arrives on the station in?

*So Sheridan turns up right at the exact second to save Bester.

*So Delenn comes up with half a dozen Minbari telepaths in like a couple hours. Maybe there was a convention on the station?

*Doc Franklin ''does so research'' and finds the Anti-telepath drug? Is this some sort of secret? Earthforce would know the drug formula, right?

*G'Kar's door- As soon as he is dusted up, and half turns...the door opens. Like the door knows he wants to leave somehow? Or does the dust open doors?

*This might be the only time B5 security uses the 'sound stun' trick....that you'd think would be more common.

*Scry? -So.....how does Kosh know about G'Kar even using the dust? Is Kosh using some sort of psionic scrying to watch things happening on the station? Or maybe Kosh has psionic prophecy powers to see the future?

*60 days?- For two violent assault and mind rape, G'Kar gets 60 days in jail? Guess he is also lucky B5 has a long term jail and he does not get sent off the station.


Final- B, Any time ruthless Psi Cop Al Bester comes to the station, it is bad news for the regulars... and very good news for the viewer.

She's the leader of the Rangers, an ambassador, and has previously been shown getting to Minbar and back in a matter of hours. So yeah, its easy to see her coming up with multiple telepaths at the drop of a hat.

Why would you think Earthforce would have the drug? Not a single race shown actually uses telepaths or telepathy in an actual combat role. Earthforce doesn't deal with telepaths - they call Psi Corps, who deal with them. And EVERYBODY knows Psi Corps has a drug that controls telepathy - how many times did we have to hear from Ivanova's whining that telepaths have 3 options of jail, Psi Corps or drug suppression. Franklin's research was just to get the formula and method for synthesizing some of it, and what the recommended dosage was.

G'Kar got 60 days for assault. The judge specifically said 'no less than' 60 days. 60 was the minimum, and G'Kar got it, which isn't a shock given how Garibaldi and Sheridan are pretty heavily sympathetic towards the Narn side.

You can't prosecute G'Kar for a telepath crime because in the eyes of regular law he isn't a telepath and the law doesn't acknowledge the ability of non-telepaths to commit telepath crimes. In the earlier episode where they had that girl manifest telepathic powers she illegally scanned and psychically assaulted multiple people but it didn't matter.

Not unlike the fact that you can't arrest and jail somebody for possession of a synthetic drug that has the effect of cocaine but ISN'T cocaine - it's not possession of a controlled substance because the law hasn't caught up to it yet and its not an official controlled substance.

Psi Corps prosecuted and handles telepath crimes. And because G'Kar isn't a telepath and they are trying to sweep Dust under the rug (heh heh heh ), Bester isn't interested in prosecuting him.

[tomandtish]

Why would you think Earthforce would have the drug? Not a single race shown actually uses telepaths or telepathy in an actual combat role. Earthforce doesn't deal with telepaths - they call Psi Corps, who deal with them. And EVERYBODY knows Psi Corps has a drug that controls telepathy - how many times did we have to hear from Ivanova's whining that telepaths have 3 options of jail, Psi Corps or drug suppression. Franklin's research was just to get the formula and method for synthesizing some of it, and what the recommended dosage was.

G'Kar got 60 days for assault. The judge specifically said 'no less than' 60 days. 60 was the minimum, and G'Kar got it, which isn't a shock given how Garibaldi and Sheridan are pretty heavily sympathetic towards the Narn side.

You can't prosecute G'Kar for a telepath crime because in the eyes of regular law he isn't a telepath and the law doesn't acknowledge the ability of non-telepaths to commit telepath crimes. In the earlier episode where they had that girl manifest telepathic powers she illegally scanned and psychically assaulted multiple people but it didn't matter.

Not unlike the fact that you can't arrest and jail somebody for possession of a synthetic drug that has the effect of cocaine but ISN'T cocaine - it's not possession of a controlled substance because the law hasn't caught up to it yet and its not an official controlled substance.

Psi Corps prosecuted and handles telepath crimes. And because G'Kar isn't a telepath and they are trying to sweep Dust under the rug (heh heh heh ), Bester isn't interested in prosecuting him.

More importantly, Psi Corp has no jurisdiction over a non-human telepath. The station can prosecute him for violating station laws, but Psi Corp's jurisdiction (officially) is over human telepaths only.

[factotum]

It does make you wonder what the protocol would be if, for example, a Minbari telepath went rogue and started brain-blending people on the station--would they call in Psi Corps or would they have to turn to the Minbari government?

[Jallorn]

It does make you wonder what the protocol would be if, for example, a Minbari telepath went rogue and started brain-blending people on the station--would they call in Psi Corps or would they have to turn to the Minbari government?

Definitely the latter. It would be a huge political embarrassment for the Minbari too. Of course, it would probably be some scheme by the warrior caste to push for war, but...