Retiering the Classes: Evangelist, Favored Soul, Healer, Mystic, Spont. Cleric

[Zancloufer]

1) If you are going to contradict me, contradict me. 6/4 is 1. Or you know, "You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels" If you have 6 caster levels, you don't have 8 caster levels, so you have 4 caster levels, so you get +1.

2) Quick check, what stat do Favored Souls cast off of? If you answered "two and the one that the sample favored soul was dumping is charisma, the one that governs bonus spells" then you answered correctly. Having fewer spells is often times similar to having fewer spells.


No it isn't. The Warmage has the best dumpster diving chassis in the game. People just keep insisting that Warmages shouldn't be allowed to Dumpster Dive because then Favored Souls would feel bad.

For some reason I thought it was 1+1/4 CL. Hmm. Also the FS and the Warmage both have the same spells per day (except 9ths which the FS caps 1 higher for) and both use Cha for casting. Yes a FS with low point buy MIGHT have less Cha, but it's like saying a Cleric casts less spells per day than a wizard because they don't max Wis as much as the wizard maxes Int.

Best dumpster diving chassis in the game? Wot? What is this I don't even. d6 HD, low Bab, 2+int skill points and one good save. Even if you are arguing it's because they "know all spells" and can therefore add more easily the Beguiler and Dread Necro both do that. Beguiler with Rainbow Servant or similar tricks is probably better with it's Int based casting and pile of skill points. Also oddly enough an invisible/hiddden Beguiler can overcome the Golems magic immunity at level 20.

[Beheld]

For some reason I thought it was 1+1/4 CL. Hmm. Also the FS and the Warmage both have the same spells per day (except 9ths which the FS caps 1 higher for) and both use Cha for casting. Yes a FS with low point buy MIGHT have less Cha, but it's like saying a Cleric casts less spells per day than a wizard because they don't max Wis as much as the wizard maxes Int.

This is another instance where you might want to look up the actual rules. Favored Soul saved DCs are based off Wisdom, bonus spells based off Cha.

If you have lower save DCs, your Nauseating Breaths are worse than Stinking Clouds, if you have fewer spells per day, then you have fewer of them. One way or another, Favored Souls casting Nauseating Breath are worse than Warmages casting Stinking Cloud.

Having two 18s and everything else 8 is 32 PB, which is already as high as the highest possible offered PB in the book, so they aren't just going to have both stats at the highest level with no cost (even before getting into racial bonuses)

[AnimeTheCat]

Edit:
Have you looked at the sanctified spell list, primarily in BoED but also in CoV? It's one of the best things the healer has access to.

I have, but the whole shtick of the healer is healing, but they don't get access to any of the best healing things, the simplest of which is spontaneous cure spells like the cleric. Having to specifically prepare cure spells is laborious and a potential waste of resources, in my opinion. It is better point per point of healing than a cleric (in my experience) but it just lacks the ease and flow of what a cleric does with spontaneous cure/inflict spells.

[eggynack]

I have, but the whole shtick of the healer is healing, but they don't get access to any of the best healing things, the simplest of which is spontaneous cure spells like the cleric. Having to specifically prepare cure spells is laborious and a potential waste of resources, in my opinion. It is better point per point of healing than a cleric (in my experience) but it just lacks the ease and flow of what a cleric does with spontaneous cure/inflict spells.

I don't know why it matters what their shtick is. In my opinion, what matters is what they're actually capable of, which is in large part about this weirdly powerful set of spells. That they can't spontaneously cure sucks. That they can cast animate with the spirit, valiant steed, vision of punishment, hammer of righteousness, and so on, does the opposite of suck.

[Anthrowhale]

I literally just demonstrated how the can have CL NI. Like, in the post are quoting.

You can't make a Warmage satisfying your claims so you suggest using a 4.2 trillion XP wish that will not be taken seriously by anyone. It's boring.

I mean, you removed it from the quote, because you are dishonest, but it was there.

You accused eggynack of being dishonest also. If you find yourself thinking everyone is dishonest, maybe the problem isn't everyone?

I don't know why you have such a crush on Warmage. They seem okish to me, but not particularly exciting. Arcane Disciple is good for them but you will be stuck with ~4 domains from a single deity and flip into MAD land as rmetagross notes. That's worthwhile because the Warmage has such a weak list, but it's far from exciting.

[Soranar]

I'll do the noncontroversial votes right away

Evangelist, Mystic, Spontaneous Cleric are all tier 1

-good spell list
-lots of spells
-access to several domains (which tend to grant key spells)
-the spontaneous cleric is a step above the other two due to turn undead

Healer tier 3

-kind of like a reverse battlefield control: this guy makes you guys keep fighting (and heals between encounters)
-the pet is pretty strong
-with the right feats /build you should have something to contribute in most occasions
-bumps up a tier if it has access to exalted spells
-difficult to optimize a fighting style (I guess a mounted charger that spent a feat to get lance proficiency)

Favored soul tier 2

-Too many spell knowns to be gimped by a restricted list like a sorcerer
-no obvious difficult choice in spell knowns, can even afford to take summon monster spells to gain access to more spells
-fairly good chassis, a mithral full plate makes the medium armor a non issue fairly soon
-you lose too much to be tier 1 (domain abilities and spells can be really good, turn undead is also an issue)
-when compared to a typical tier 3 class (say a bard or a swordsage) a favored soul mops the floor with them, this is my best argument as to their tier

But if I had to break it down, even a favored soul that didn't optimize his wisdom and just pumped his CHA

-can still summon a decent fighter or helper (summon monster 3-9, 1 and 2 are not worth it IMO)
-become a fighter type (divine power + righteous might)
-heal (lesser vigor, heal, mass heal)
-restore debilitating status effects (death, ability damage, negative levels, etc)
-prevent debilitating effects (dispel magic, protection vs evil, freedom of movement)
-use dispel magic to counterspell (and thus shut down a spellcaster)
-use longterm buffs for himself and the party (greater magic weapon, magic vestment)
-use lesser planar binding (and the better versions) like beefed up summon monsters (access to more spells, etc)

Now compare that to a bard or a swordsage?

Is a favored soul tier 1, no.

A tier 1 class can do all of that and more even with a gimped build. When compared to a tier 1 class

The favored soul's save DC will be hurt by the dual casting
He will lack the rest of the broken spells available at earlier levels (entangle, grease, color spray, web , stinking cloud, cloudkill, celerity, etc)
Lacks most forms of action economy (a permanent pet you don't need to summon like an animal companion, a familiar that can cast spells or share them, action granting spells, etc)
Has difficulty with movement (little access to flight, teleportation and the like, has to jump through hoops to get some)
Like all spont caster he won't have much downtime spells

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't know why it matters what their shtick is. In my opinion, what matters is what they're actually capable of, which is in large part about this weirdly powerful set of spells. That they can't spontaneously cure sucks. That they can cast animate with the spirit, valiant steed, vision of punishment, hammer of righteousness, and so on, does the opposite of suck.

Ok, I do see what you mean. I guess I was just left with a bad taste in my mouth when I realized that they're not the best healers even though they're called healers. You make a fair point, and I concede that you're likely right. I still feel like if I ever play one or allow a player to play one i'll allow them to spontaneously cast cure spells.

[ATHATH]

Only semi-on-topic, but I'm gonna just gonna drop this amazing (mostly for the spells) domain here...

http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...domain&alpha=T

Spell List:
True Strike: Dud
Gentle Repose: Decent
Haste: Really good
Freedom of Movement: Really good
Permanency: Decent-ish, although probably not that good to have as a spontaneous spell
Contingency: Really good
Moment of Prescience: Decent
Foresight: Really good
Time Stop: Really good

Oh, and it gives you Improved Initiative as a bonus feat. I think I'm in love.

Also, I suspect that an Evangelist could pull off a pretty decent Rebuking-focused build by taking every elemental domain and other domains that interact with Rebuking and just having ALL THE MINIONS (including some types of dragons!). Admittedly, that's a specific example.

[Beheld]

You can't make a Warmage satisfying your claims so you suggest using a 4.2 trillion XP wish that will not be taken seriously by anyone. It's boring.

"You successfully made a Warmage that satisfied your claims with a 0XP wish, and I'm mad about it so I'm just going to say that it's boring!"

Almost like breaking the game with NI Caster Level is a something anyone can do, so a class being able to do that at level 16 is not meaningful.

I don't know why you have such a crush on Warmage. They seem okish to me, but not particularly exciting. Arcane Disciple is good for them but you will be stuck with ~4 domains from a single deity and flip into MAD land as rmetagross notes. That's worthwhile because the Warmage has such a weak list, but it's far from exciting.

The Warmge isn't very good. That's kind of the point. Neither is the Favored Soul, when the presented Favored Soul build is about as good as a Warmage that takes Weapon Focus for every feat for 15 levels, that's an indictment of the Favored Soul.

[Anthrowhale]

and I'm mad about it so I'm just going to say that it's boring!"

Nah, I'm just disappointed. Resort to wealthomancy is an admission of failure in a build. It's boring.

[lord_khaine]

HAHAHA, but in fact, Favored Souls don't exist at all, so they are Tier (N/A).

I mean, if blatantly lying is the new stock in trade for Tier arguments, this is going to get old fast.

Making a scroll of Superior Resistance is not exactly like writing an entirely new spell.

Well.. i guess putting your hands over your ears and going "la la la" is also a way to respond if you have forgotten magic item creation rules are not rules but guidelines that need DM aproval.

Though if im suposedly lying, then by all means, point out the location and name of your runestaff

Planar Ally is great because and super powerful and high class because it gets you a temporary minion for a few days. But Charm Monster is terrible, because all it does is give you a permanent friend, and those suck." Sure thing.

I guess it is easy to confuse DOMINATE and CHARM monster. Well.. of course one of those can be used to fight for you.. and the other can be used to, and i quote the SRD for the friendly attitude "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate"

[Beheld]

Nah, I'm just disappointed. Resort to wealthomancy is an admission of failure in a build. It's boring.

"My way of getting infinite caster level is totally okay and not at all gamebreaking but your way of getting infinite CL is GAMEBREAKING!"

I mean, if infinite caster level was a thing that anyone actually cared about getting on their characters, a Warmage could just buy a runestaff with consumptive field in it, UMD being a Cleric 1, and Persist the spell Easy Meta, Practical Meta at level 18 like your character.

If for any reason at all, we actually cared about getting infinite Caster Level.

But we don't because game breaking TO is TO, and doesn't matter.

Well.. i guess putting your hands over your ears and going "la la la" is also a way to respond if you have forgotten magic item creation rules are not rules but guidelines that need DM aproval.

No, the magic item guidelines are guidelines the ones with weird crap about making infinite use items and constant effect, and not having to have spell completion. The rules for how to create scrolls are in fact, not guidelines. Likewise, Runestaves, because their are explicit rules for creating Runestaves with whatever spells you want that are literally exactly like the scroll rules.

So you can totally just make a runestaff with any spells you want in it, using the rules for doing that, just like you can make scrolls with any spells on them, using the rules for that.

I guess it is easy to confuse DOMINATE and CHARM monster. Well.. of course one of those can be used to fight for you.. and the other can be used to, and i quote the SRD for the friendly attitude "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate"

I guess it's easy to confuse the word FRIEND with the word ALLY. (Presumably you also reject the concept of using Diplomacy on charmed people and making a DC 1 check to change then to friendly or DC 15 to change to Helpful.)

[Anthrowhale]

You might want to be more careful with your words. Let me help.

"My way of getting infinite caster level is totally okay and not at all gamebreaking but your way of getting infinite CL is GAMEBREAKING!boring wealthomancy."

[remetagross]

(Presumably you also reject the concept of using Diplomacy on charmed people and making a DC 1 check to change then to friendly or DC 15 to change to Helpful.)

That is debatable, since one could read the Charm line of spells as setting the attitude of the target to "Friendly" for the duration of the spell, without any possibility to either improve or downgrade it apart from the cases the spell covers.

[eggynack]

I think there's a more straightforward argument against charm+diplomacy. It doesn't seem to make the target actually friendly. It says to treat them that way, but that's in the context of, y'know, how they regard you. They might not be friendly for all possible purposes, and one of the purposes left out could easily be modification through diplomacy.

[GilesTheCleric]

I'll do the noncontroversial votes right away

Evangelist, Mystic, Spontaneous Cleric are all tier 1

The favored soul's save DC will be hurt by the dual casting
He will lack the rest of the broken spells available at earlier levels (entangle, grease, color spray, web , stinking cloud, cloudkill, celerity, etc)
Lacks most forms of action economy (a permanent pet you don't need to summon like an animal companion, a familiar that can cast spells or share them, action granting spells, etc)
Has difficulty with movement (little access to flight, teleportation and the like, has to jump through hoops to get some)
Like all spont caster he won't have much downtime spells

I'm a little confused here. Almost all the drawbacks you list for FSes also apply to the classes you've listed as being T1. Does not having split casting alone really raise those those three classes to T1?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm a little confused here. Almost all the drawbacks you list for FSes also apply to the classes you've listed as being T1. Does not having split casting alone really raise those those three classes to T1?

I can't find the Evangelist, but the Mystic and Spontaneous Cleric also get (or can inherently get) Turning, meaning DMM is still online. That lack seems to be the main argument against the Favored Soul reaching Tier 2?

A big question that hasn't been addressed, I don't think, is how the Mystic and Spontaneous Cleric handle bonus domains. The Spontaneous Cleric specifically says "adds his two domain spells to his list of spells known; the Mystic seems even more direct in their presentation of only learning one domain spell/spell level. While it seems reasonable to assume that more Domains mean more spells known, it doesn't seem to be 100% RAW.

For the record, I'd vote

• Favored Soul is Tier 2.5ish-- it's certainly a 3 at lower levels, and climbs into T2 once you hit 3rd or 4th level spells, but the split-list casting leaves it on the weak side
• The Spontaneous Cleric and Mystic are stronger Tier 2s. DMM and domain powers make them a much more direct clone of the Cleric, in the same way that the Sorcerer can do any one subset of Wizard tricks.
• Healer is hard. I think it was the one class I voted "Tier X" on in the last thread, because it's effectiveness is just... all over the place. Sanctified Spells being in play or not makes a huge difference. Relative optimization levels and table culture make a huge difference in how useful the healing is. You get these huge spikes when the spellcasting pets come online, then quickly lose power as their casting becomes obsolete. I'd lob an average guess as somewhere around Tier 4 if pressed, I guess, but I really can't feel good about any specific placement.

[Gemini476]

Evangelists are not a very complicated variant. To wit:

1. Take a Cleric.
2. Make their casting spontaneous rather than prepared.
3. Give them the Sorcerer's spellcasting tables, and remove one 9th-level spell known at level 20. (It's possible that this is a typo, but you also get a new domain at 20.)
4. Remove Turn Undead.
5. Give them +1 domain/5 levels. (Mentioned in the tables but not the text.)
6. Remove Knowledge(arcana, history, the planes) from the list of class skills.
7. Add Gather Information and Knowledge(local) to the list of class skills.
8. Remove heavy armor proficiency.

And that's all she wrote, I think.


When it comes to Divine Metamagic, it's probably worth mentioning that the Divine Metamagic feat requires you to be able to turn or rebuke undead. Like, as a prerequisite for getting the feat. I don't remember if there's a domain that will get you that, but you'll need to spend one of your slots on that if you want to DMM as an Evangelist. (Or a prestige class or dipping one level of Cleric or whatever, but we're mostly ignoring multiclassing in these threads IIRC.)

[GilesTheCleric]

or dipping one level of Cleric or whatever, but we're mostly ignoring multiclassing in these threads IIRC.)

Both the Spontaneous Cleric and Evangelist count as "Cleric", so you can't dip Cleric with those, unfortunately.

[Gemini476]

Both the Spontaneous Cleric and Evangelist count as "Cleric", so you can't dip Cleric with those, unfortunately.

The Spontaneous Cleric's already got native turning, so that's mostly just a concern for the Evangelist.

Still a badish option for Healers and Favored Souls, but available outside the constraints of this thread. Prestige classes are a bit easier to swallow in any case as a spontaneous caster - you really don't want to fall two levels behind in spellcasting.

The Mystic might already have native turning, I honestly haven't ever even looked at that book.

[Soranar]

I'm a little confused here. Almost all the drawbacks you list for FSes also apply to the classes you've listed as being T1. Does not having split casting alone really raise those those three classes to T1?

All those drawbacks can be fixed with the right domain spells which all of these classes have access to. The only realy gimp to the favored soul is lack of domain access. Turn undead is useful but DMM metamagic is also rarely allowed so it's mostly a matter of powering divine feats which can be powerful but not as much as spells.

[Rizban]

Evangelist - I'm unfamiliar with it and don't have access to that DragMag. So, I have no meaningful opinion. n/a

Favored Soul - I don't understand the hate on this class. Yes, the cleric list often tends to be more situationally useful than the bread and butter wizard spells, but it's not bad. FS has the same casting as but more spells known than a sorc, so this makes up for that a bit. Split casting sucks, but it doesn't make you any more MAD than most cleric builds, and if you focus on no-save spells, then you can dump Wis without a problem. All good saves, medium BAB, and d8 HD are nice as well. The general class features are... strange and usually too late to be meaningful, but it does have class features of some kind. Overall, I'd still rate it on par with a Sorc. It seems like it takes a little more effort to optimize properly than a sorc, but not that much more. T2

Healer - Frankly, this class is terrible. It does one thing and claims to do that one thing well... but it doesn't. Standard clerics can outpace the healing on a Healer and have better options. Reactive, in combat healing is also one of the least optimal uses off actions in combat. Yes, it's necessary if you can't rez and need to save someone from death, but making it your primary role generally relegates your character to superfluousness. I'm tempted to dump them in the dregs of tier 5, but they are full casters and have some of the same types of tricks that all full casters have. There are ways to build them that make them not useless, but it's difficult without using SpC text to add spells to their list. I'm going to say they're a low T4.

Mystic - This is exactly a divine sorcerer who casts from the cleric list and trades a familiar for a domain. This gives it 1 more spell known per spell level than a standard sorc. From there, it just comes down to comparing the Cleric spell list to the Sor/Wiz list. I'd put Mystic on exactly the same tier as Sorcerer. T2

Spontaneous Cleric - It sacrifices the flexibility of anytime full list access, which is the primary advantage of being a divine caster over an arcane caster, to get spontaneous casting. There are a number of feats and ACFs that give clerics limited spontaneity that don't require fully sacrificing this benefit. This isn't entirely useless though, especially since each domain he picks up gives him 9 more spells known, and there are plenty of ways to pick up new domains. I'd rate this as high T2.

[eggynack]

Healer - Frankly, this class is terrible. It does one thing and claims to do that one thing well... but it doesn't. Standard clerics can outpace the healing on a Healer and have better options. Reactive, in combat healing is also one of the least optimal uses off actions in combat. Yes, it's necessary if you can't rez and need to save someone from death, but making it your primary role generally relegates your character to superfluousness. I'm tempted to dump them in the dregs of tier 5, but they are full casters and have some of the same types of tricks that all full casters have. There are ways to build them that make them not useless, but it's difficult without using SpC text to add spells to their list. I'm going to say they're a low T4.

As I've been noting, sanctified spells are very strong, and they mean the class is capable of significantly more than just healing. Also, the mount starts doing some cool stuff at level 12.

Edit: Also, corrupt spells maybe? They kinda technically have access to those too.

[Anthrowhale]

As I've been noting, sanctified spells are very strong, and they mean the class is capable of significantly more than just healing. Also, the mount starts doing some cool stuff at level 12.

Edit: Also, corrupt spells maybe? They kinda technically have access to those too.

I think the question is: What is the tier of a hypothetical class with spell slots but no spells on their list?

[eggynack]

I think the question is: What is the tier of a hypothetical class with spell slots but no spells on their list?

High four, maybe low three if you account for corrupt, I'd think. Sanctified spells are surprisingly variety filled and powerful. Corrupt spells are less interesting, in my opinion, but offer some really interesting stuff, up to and including a nearly top quality 9th. Toss in healer spells, which represent at least one full niche and maybe a bit of utility in one or two others, and the companion, which gets you a whole bunch of extra magic, maybe getting you to high four or low three on its own in that level range, and I feel like we're talking a clear three. These spells are great.

[Sagetim]

Alright, so, I'm going to start with the class that I have actually played before. I mean, if you count neverwinter nights 2 as playing the class. I do, because while it may not have had all of 3.5 in it, it could still give you a baseline of comparison between classes and help you test out builds and ideas.

Favored Soul: I would not be surprised if this could be optimized up to tier 2. In playing one, I found it to be a very solid class for buffing and party support. And, given the right amount of shenanigans while buffing, it can be a solid combatant as well. Add in shenanigans with persistent spell later on, and you don't need to heal the party between fights because everyone has Fast Healing with a 24 hour duration. I mean, that's not unique to this class, but it can do that. It gets more spells than a sorcerer (more spells than a shugenja as well, as I recall) and as long as you're not expecting it to drop fireballs and play some kind of outright damage dealing spell game, you're good. In a party, this class can join the front line and do well. It's when you start trying to cast spells that reqire saves that you're going to have issues, because it's got a dual stat set up for some god forsaken reason. Now, if you are rolling stats up, that's fine, you just play one when you have enough stats to play one and don't worry about the rest. But a lot of people here seem to be fans of point buy, and trying to point buy enough stats to be a good favored soul is going to be a pain in the ass. I would say they are Tier 3. They can do a handful of things well (healing, buffing, fighting) and have potential access to a solid spell list for solving problems that make you friends of npcs (like curing the sick). Oh, and I just looked up shugenja, they have the same number of spells known without the wonky rules of shugenja. The Damage redction is too late to be great, the wings are also a bit on the late side for usefulness, but it IS nice to be able to have weapon focus and specialization without having to dip any fighter levels. Energy Resistance is nice at 5, and a little low but better than nothing at 10 and 15.

Healer: Oh, wow, man, I remember looking at this class long ago and saying "I want to play one for flavor, but I know it would suck." After looking over their class abilities, they do one thing monstrously well. Heal. Heal, heal, heal for days. And not so much on those pesky combat spells to tempt them to do anything else. I suppose they might be able to pick up domains to help fix that, but even if they rebel and prepare a bunch of domain spells instead of any healer spells (or sanctified spells, or corrupt, oh wait, they can't be evil). Even if they rebel with regards to the spell list that has been granted upon them from on high, their class abilities make sure that they can cure any number of odd ailments at least once per day. Including missing limbs, drained levels, and oh, Death. That's a pretty damn potent capstone to just ignore a massive gold cost and true rez someone for free each week. Sure, it's their capstone, they ain't getting that one early or easily, but it's the kind of game changer that could alter the culture of a world for as long as that healer lives. But we're not really here to talk impacting the culture of the game world with regards to tier, we're talking how many problems the class can solve and how well they can solve those problems. They can solve the 'dying and mezzed ' problem with great competency. I would give them Tier 3, but only because I expect the rest of you to know how to make them competent at solving other problems with your build fu and optimization. If we are assuming someone who is not coming to this forum for advice on building and what not? Probably tier 4, because they are REALLY good at healing.

Spontaneous Cleric: From the spontaneous alternate class feature thing from Unearthed Arcana? Tier 2. You may have sorcerer problems now, but they aren't nearly as bad (you still get more spells known for most levels than sorcerer does) and while one of the cleric's great strengths is that they can pray for spells from the entire cleric list at any given day, you still get to pick your spells known from the cleric list. And you get domains to cast spontaneously from. And you can still beat things to death with a mace. And wear heavy armor. And shields. And turn undead. You're changing enough about the cleric to drop from tier 1 to 2, but your' still sitting pretty.

Mystic: From Dragonlance, right? Like the spontaneos cleric, but one domain and no heavy armor. Oh, and you lose turning. I mean, technically that's all impactful, but I don't see the mystic as dropping down to tier 3 because of it. They still have d8 hp, still have two good saves, still got 3/4 bab, and still have up to medium armor and are still Single Ability Casters. While lack of heavy armor prof means you can't jump on full plate as soon as the fighter, later on it doesn't mean much as you (just as anyone limited to medium armor proficiency) can get mithril full plate and stop giving a crap. Your domain pick is going to seriously shape your character, which makes sense given the fluff of the class. Because you're not drawing on divine strength from the gods. You're pulling divine power out of yourself and using it to cast spells. This means that you can give every bishop the finger and proceed to do whatever you want with your spells at any time. There is no god to cut you off for bad behavior. And while that doesn't necessarily come up that often here on the forums, that IS something that can happen to clerics in addition to paladins. The mystic can freely pick whatever spells they want without regard to alignment restrictions that normally apply to clerics, and if a mystic picks the Sun domain they get normal turning (you know, if you were dead set on that class ability for some reason). This class is still solid enough to rank tier 2 to me, especially if you pick a domain with incredibly abusable domain only spells to proceed to spontaneously spam on things. Oh, and they can do Sanctified or Corrupt spells.

Evangelist: So, from looking p the class and what I cold find on it easily, it's a dragon magazine class with better skill points, lighter armor, no turn undead, and hohohholy crap a lot of domains. Domains for days. I would put them solidly in tier 2, because they seem to be a 'better than the mystic' class. While the Mystic has to be careful about their domain pick, the Evangelist gets so many that they run into issues with needing a god badass enough to support them all the way to 20. Now, that's not a bad problem to have. I would not be surprised if someone could make a few Evangelist builds that compete with Tier 1 classes even with limited spells known, just from all the extra domain granted spells known. As far as I know, you still have the problem that most cleric based classes have of having to pay attention to alignment restrictions and act in accordance with your god's mandate and alignment, but that's pretty par for the course with divine magic. Unlike the Healer, they can go either Corrupt or Sanctified spells based on alignment as well, as far as I know. Now, if they were the domains only caster that the class apparently started as, then we'd be talking about a much lower tier class. But they have the baseline cleric list to draw from and a whole mess of domains to add to their spontaneous repertoire along with an augmented cleric chassis to back that up. Does anyone know if they get regular turning from picking up the sun domain? or was that a weird little Mystic only thing?

[eggynack]

(or sanctified spells, or corrupt, oh wait, they can't be evil).

I actually don't think there's anything intrinsic to the healer that forces you to not cast opposed alignment spells, and there's nothing intrinsic to corrupt spells that makes them inaccessible to good characters. Only actual mechanical problem is that corrupt spells might turn you evil. Something to keep an eye on, certainly, but from a strict mechanical perspective the healer can probably get a bit of utility here.

but only because I expect the rest of you to know how to make them competent at solving other problems with your build fu and optimization. If we are assuming someone who is not coming to this forum for advice on building and what not? Probably tier 4, because they are REALLY good at healing.

The healer is really interesting in terms of build and optimization stuff. I'm pretty firmly convinced that a healer with no optimization beyond knowing that sanctified spells exist, that they're good, and that healers can use them, lands in tier three. At least if you build your list reasonably. It single handedly expands their list from healing to, off the top of my head, blasting, minionmancy, debuffs, knowin' stuff, mobility, buffs, overnight rest, and even a bit of illusion shenanigans. And this stuff isn't in particularly low quality forms either. These aren't crappy throwaway spells that any real caster would dismiss. These are spells that are optimal for top tier casters. And not just because clerics weirdly get them spontaneously.

[Sagetim]

I actually don't think there's anything intrinsic to the healer that forces you to not cast opposed alignment spells, and there's nothing intrinsic to corrupt spells that makes them inaccessible to good characters. Only actual mechanical problem is that corrupt spells might turn you evil. Something to keep an eye on, certainly, but from a strict mechanical perspective the healer can probably get a bit of utility here.

The healer is really interesting in terms of build and optimization stuff. I'm pretty firmly convinced that a healer with no optimization beyond knowing that sanctified spells exist, that they're good, and that healers can use them, lands in tier three. At least if you build your list reasonably. It single handedly expands their list from healing to, off the top of my head, blasting, minionmancy, debuffs, knowin' stuff, mobility, buffs, overnight rest, and even a bit of illusion shenanigans. And this stuff isn't in particularly low quality forms either. These aren't crappy throwaway spells that any real caster would dismiss. These are spells that are optimal for top tier casters. And not just because clerics weirdly get them spontaneously.

Well, they are still alignment locked into good and required to heal good creatures who need healing (for example). They have an Ethos that doesn't seem very well defined (mostly implied), and that's probably why I assumed they have a similar alignment restriction on casting that clerics have. Then again, the only way for them to gain access to evil aligned spells is from sources outside their class (such as feats and Maybe corrupt spells). From the description of Corrupt spells in the Book of Vile Darkness, it sounds like they are so horrible that learning them would call the alignment of Good into question, and casting even one would probably drop you to neutral. The Healer is a Very goody two shoes class, it's why they get a unicorn companion. I'm pretty sure that kind of companion would skewer you for learning, let alone casting anything like Corrupt spells.

So while you might be able to technically utilize Corrupt spells, rules as written, as a healer, I don't think many gm's would let you do it for long (or at all) unless they just didn't care about enforcing class alignment things. That said, the Healer seems like a prime class for Book of Exalted Deeds stuff. The class is all about being a nice person to good people and the vow of nonviolence seems like it would jam with their whole 'sucks at combat anyway' thing.

Oh, one trick that the Healer would be well suited to do that other classes might have a harder time managing would be casting Sanctify The Wicked on people. Because they could charge people some amount of diamonds for the True Rez without having to actually expend those resources to cast it. Then they could take those diamonds for use with that Sanctified spell. Admittedly, eating a character level loss per casting would suck, but you pay the sacrifice cost at the end of the spell's duration anyway, so as long as you don't break the diamonds, you can keep a collection of penitent evil beings. Then, when things start going well and truly to hell, you break them all at once and fall over dead from being negative level 30 or whatever....or hit level 1 and keep getting reset to 0 xp with each gem breaking and forming into sanctified former villains.

[Gemini476]

I actually don't think there's anything intrinsic to the healer that forces you to not cast opposed alignment spells, and there's nothing intrinsic to corrupt spells that makes them inaccessible to good characters. Only actual mechanical problem is that corrupt spells might turn you evil. Something to keep an eye on, certainly, but from a strict mechanical perspective the healer can probably get a bit of utility here.

Isn't there a general rule that divine casters can't cast spells of the opposite alignment? I seem to remember that being pointed out somewhere.

[Grod_The_Giant]

As I've been noting, sanctified spells are very strong, and they mean the class is capable of significantly more than just healing. Also, the mount starts doing some cool stuff at level 12.

Edit: Also, corrupt spells maybe? They kinda technically have access to those too.

One issue with rating the Healer mainly on Sanctified Spells is that they're an external source of power. It's not as bad as rating a class on a specific ACF, feat, PrC or what have you, because Sanctified Spells aren't technically a choice, but it's still very possible to have a Healer who-- due to book restrictions-- can't use them. And I think that ought to be considered. It's probably not worth a whole tier, but it's definitely not a point in their favor.