The Coming Tunnel Battle [possible spoilers]

[Vreejack]

Possible spoilers--if I want to give myself that much credit.

Assuming the Battle for Gobwin Knob gets that far, the spectre of the tunnels as a future battleground is looming large before us. Parson is fully aware of the Ansom's planned feint into the tunnels--a move that would likely work only against someone as tactically stupid as Stanley--but he also mentioned forcing Ansom to commit to the tunnels for real. The simple way to do that is to destroy his siege units, which--to those of us with more experience on a hex grid than your average reader--could have been seen coming as soon as the abilities of the dwagons and warlords was obvious (which makes me want to tell the "too slow" wingers to "shut the boop up" because character development is all I really get out of this.)

Some thoughts. Will the siege be destroyed? The hit-and-run tactics necessary to take them out are interesting for a player but for a viewer they are as interesting as watching a chess game. A frame of dismembered cloth golems and frying marbits for fan service might be engaging but there is little else to say about it. It would make a good back drop for some more dysfunctional group dynamics on Ansom's side, however.

Will the siege even become moot? The plot singularity that is approaching will put Ansom, Jillian and the three croaked warlords together in a contest that we--lacking Parson's power glove--cannot predict the result of. Ansom may be croaked, or he may croak all three of Parson's warlords. Either of these possibilities is plot-shattering, making the rest of the battle too one-sided to be interesting without a deus ex machina, but it is possible that at least one uncroaked warlord will survive to cause havoc (along with the other two), or that Ansom will lose the Arkenpliers. The former will significantly weaken Parson's abilities, while the latter is a wrench--or, literally, pliers--thrown into the works of whatever people's expectations of this battle might have been. So it may be that the battle will end in that lake hex, but I rather think not. The tunnels have been waiting and will grow peevish if we ignore them.

Now to the meat of this discussion: why would anyone seriously entertain the thought of attacking through the tunnels? Unless you are achieving complete surprise, attacking through the tunnels is like gaining entry to the enemy's camp by allowing yourself to be imprisoned in their dungeon. The defender can simply seal your forces up in separate caverns where you can be dispatched piecemeal. Even if you have unlimited forces you run a very real risk of blocking the holes up with your own croaked, er, uncroaked. Let us not forget that Wanda can probably (we assume) raise Ansom's fallen forces for use against him on the battlefield. Would going to war against hell be any worse?

Ansom, being a fairly intelligent guy, would not launch this sort of attack unless he could achieve complete surprise, gaining entry to the inner fortress in force before Stanley could organize a effective resistance. This would seem to be impossible given the fact that battle is already in progress underground and the tunnels are (obviously) well-defended, but Jillian's concocted story about having escaped through a tunnel may give him hope that such an unguarded tunnel might exist. This is where the possibilities become truly interesting. Does Jillian know she is lying? Does Jillian know where a tunnel is? If so is it because she used it once before or because Wanda told her where it is for some purpose of her own? Or, when Team Stanley sees Jillian groping about for a supposed nonexistent tunnel, will they create the "secret" tunnel specifically for her and a small team of highly skilled and courageous heroes?

Another question comes to mind: what happens to Ansom when he is imprisoned forever in a oubliette of living rock? Liike Stanley, I can hardly wait.

[Lamech]

I think that going through the tunnels could only make things worse for Amson even if he has lost the siege. There could be fortifications underground similar to the above ground ones except laying traps would be even easier. Sizemore could cause havoc with his magic. If the dwagons can attack troop in the tunnels with their breath attacks, Amson could suffer massive causulties. At least some of Stanley's troops will get bonuses for tunnel fighting.

Amson might attack if he has misinformation or makes bad assumptions, but it won't be a good idea.

[ChowGuy]

If the dwagons can attack troop in the tunnels with their breath attacks, Amson could suffer massive causulties.

If the Dwagons can fit in "twisty little tunnels." If their breath attacks are effective in "twisty little tunnels." If they have unlimited uses of those attacks, can even use them at more then point-blank range to begin with, and can stay out of range of pikemen and other ground troops while they do so. None abilities of which we've seen demonstrated.

That's a lot of "ifs."

Will a tunnel battle be bloody? Probably. But we've already seen that Ansom is willing to use as many Schlemiel Elves and Luckless Elves as meat shields as it takes. Why should he care any more about Marbits. GET OVER the idea that Ansom "cares" any more about casualties then Stanley. He cares about keeping his job by and winning in the shortest time possible, that's all.

[Vreejack]

Will a tunnel battle be bloody? Probably. But we've already seen that Ansom is willing to use as many Schlemiel Elves and Luckless Elves as meat shields as it takes. Why should he care any more about Marbits. GET OVER the idea that Ansom "cares" any more about casualties then Stanley. He cares about keeping his job by and winning in the shortest time possible, that's all.

I agree that the dwagons will probably be useless in the tunnels, but consider the following: coming in through the twisty little tunnels is not like entering a breach in the walls. In fact, even a breach in the walls would be difficult to manage considering that it is still a choke point in which the attacker must advance single file, with the leading man fighting many defenders. Once the breach is captured the attackers can stream in and expand their front, but the process of getting through the initial breach is very bloody for the attacker. You might at first think the tunnels are easier because an equal number of attackers and defenders will be facing off within them as it was drawn in at least one person's imagination (I forget where) but an intelligent defender will never allow that to happen. The defender will turn the length of every stretch of tunnel into a long abbatoir of death for the attacker, in which he must fight past deadly murder holes and footfalls and stones raining down from above. There are probably entire caverns set up where attacking stacks can be separated from others, trapped, and drowned in water, lava, or worse (thank you, Sizemore). Furthermore, if Ansom tries to simply throw more meat at the tunnels then he runs the risk of actually blocking them up with dead flesh, which Wanda can then turn against him.

There are only two relatively safe and sane ways to attack via the tunnels. One that I did not mention before is to simply dig your own tunnels. This helps to even out the playing field since it is more difficult for the enemy to spring a trap on you in your own tunnel, but there was a long tradition of such mining and counter-mining in our world going back to at least medieval times and this is still Stanley's turf; I think the defenders could easily flood them out with whatever Sizemore has in store so long as they could hear the attackers tunneling in. The second way is to sneak in such that the defender does not even know you are coming. This is the way I think Ansom will choose, using Jillian's "escape route" as the basis of a plan.

I admit that this is a rather tenuous piece of speculation, but assuming that no words have been wasted and everything in the story is a clue and not just a throwaway line, this hypothesis fits rather well. For it to be true then Ansom must hear about Jillian's "escape" story, which he might have already received in Webinar's hat report. Ansom and Jillian must survive the coming battle with the wounded dwagons, and yet Parson must still be able to destroy the remaining siege weapons. The status of the Arkenpliers is actually irrelevant.

[ChowGuy]

The second way is to sneak in such that the defender does not even know you are coming. This is the way I think Ansom will choose, using Jillian's "escape route" as the basis of a plan.

I tend to agree. In fact, I've said before, that given the timing of his hiring the Archons, and where they were told to report(*), they may have been brought in expressly to facilitate just such an "infiltration." That was, after all, what the TV Angels specialized in, not major combat ops. That's also why I think that may have figured in Ansom's "Option 3" as a reason for Stanley to pull the Dwagons back, rather then press his current advantage. Right now, with Stanley's attention focused elsewhere, would be the perfect time for a covert op with the goal of seizing a forward strong point.

If so, whether Jillian's head-strong actions actually put that option in jeopardy will be the question. I think though that that sort of "gut reaction" to ride to Ansom's aid when she should be doing something else is just the sort of "subtle influence" Wanda would have expected, rather then something overtly disloyal.

It's cat-and-mouse. Ansom cannot be an entirely stupid commander, no matter what Stanley thinks (or led Parson to think), and though he may have been "predictable" I think he's capable of pulling off something "clever" on his own, now that his back is up to the wall.


(*) About whom, and their mission, Jillian knew nothing and could therefore not have revealed to Wanda even had she wished to. This would of course involve Ansom being ignorant of the Trimancers and thus presuming that Stanley remains oblivious to them, but that assumption is made by (almost) everyone here anyway.

By the way, that's another good reason why an initial search of the area was rational, if that was indeed the plan. If Stanley couldn't know all and see all, then somebody had to be lurking out there to report whether he took the bait or not, and can not be allowed to report further movements.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

if they use her 'escape route', then hopefully Wanda remembered to give her one that leads into a trap...and more appropriately, is hidden well enough to catch a large portion of troops in the trap before being discovered to be a trap.

Remember, if Ansom doesn't show up on time, the tunnel attack will proceed as planned unless they get word to them that says otherwise. With plenty of their heavy units and likely air and siege destroyed...attacking the wall is useless and futile as it will just make them targets for the dwagons and wall defenders without the ability to breach the wall. Being in a tunnel, even one likely to be trapped would be prefferable since it would force close combat and not expose too much of their forces to direct attack...the tunnels might be a 'safe haven' from the dwagons...while they may not be able to break through from underground, they will be able to dig in and setup a relatively safe base camp from which to plan their next actions.

Ansom has the numbers to absorb losses at a high rate, so if they can get in good with the tunnels and get an even kill ratio, or even as high as 10-1 kill ratio, they can likely win eventually since they have so many more men...provided that they can actually kill enemy troops.

Ya know...depending on restriction in combat, stack size in a single hex, and the ability of casters to cast spells over and over again...they could setup a max stack in front of a 'hospital' hex and cycle troops one hex back as they are wounded so that they can get healed and either rejoin or be replaced as necessary. If their warlords directed battle from just behind the front line (same hex, just not in contact), they could really grind down the defenders with minimal losses...minimal losses could be key, because that way they don't add much to the uncroaked ranks.

The forces of GK will be needing to use disposable units as much as possible (crap golems), traps, seal off certian tunnels, veil strategic access points, and set the stage to defend on ground of their choosing where they can force the enemy to attack in a way that they will outnumber Ansom's forces because of terrain and Ansom's forces will be wasted just sitting around or getting hit with traps and such.

If the dwagons can't go into the tunnels...it would be a great time to send a force of Dwagons to hit their capitals and production sites...if they can decrease their income, maybe raid their treasury, they could deal a crippling blow the 'real' way...make them unable to pay the upkeep on their units and force them to disband their forces. If they get hit hard while they are camped out with a huge force, they might find their 'supply' lines cut and no longer able sustain such a large force.

[Krelon]

Personally I believe that the hunt fails, that Ansom does either plan 1) or 2) and Parson somehow (using the mathamancy device) convinces Stanley to go for the siege and easy to get but significant targets of opportunity.

With the walls defended by dwagons (imagine breaths comingdown while the alliance slowly climbs the walls without siege towers) the tunnels remain the only alternative but ... fighting in twisty little tunnels sounds a lot like stalingard to me. You fight over every rock and 10ft. corridor so the defenders should be at a big advantage there.

Ansom may be not a genius but he is not stupid either, it is a very likely developement that he asks Jillian (who escaped through an unguarded tunnel - at least that's her story) to get a bunch of underground specialists to sneak into GK. There will be a marbit feint and a storming of walls to keep the defenders occupied, meanwhile the troyan fellowship will try to open the gates from the inside.

As we (the readers) know not all is well with Jillians mind, I believe it will be until the very last moment before we learn her true loyalties and it will be hers to make the special ops a failure or a success... quite a suspense if you ask me.

not sure if the following is still PG13 so spoilerized:

Spoiler

Show

my guess is that Jillian and Wanda are both from the 'Lost Croatan Tribe' and since there are no children (no need for becoming pregnant) that persons of the same sex being a couple is a perfectly normal thing in Erfworld.
... and I shudder to think what Parson-sized thing could find him attractive

I'm looking forward to find out more about their [Croatans] true agenda, so either Wanda swings towards the alliance or Jillian the other way.

[sihnfahl]

Personally I believe that the hunt fails, that Ansom does either plan 1) or 2)

Plan 2 (hunkering down) requires Jillian to have sufficient move to reach Ansom's position. I think the 'hunt' will only fail when Jillian runs out of move to keep searching; kind of makes option 2 moot. Option 1, the flight, is still viable... but Ansom will still lose his siege.

With the walls defended by dwagons (imagine breaths coming down while the alliance slowly climbs the walls without siege towers) the tunnels remain the only alternative but ... fighting in twisty little tunnels sounds a lot like stalingard to me. You fight over every rock and 10ft. corridor so the defenders should be at a big advantage there.

Not to mention the other defensive things on walls; archers, boiling oils, etc.
And, yes, forcing Ansom into the tunnels was part of Parson's plan.

Ansom may be not a genius but he is not stupid either, it is a very likely developement that he asks Jillian (who escaped through an unguarded tunnel - at least that's her story) to get a bunch of underground specialists to sneak into GK. There will be a marbit feint and a storming of walls to keep the defenders occupied, meanwhile the troyan fellowship will try to open the gates from the inside.

Well, that might be a bit hard to do; with the siege gone, it's a foregone conclusion that Ansom -has- to go through the tunnels. Pretty much every tunnel will be doubly defended and full of traps. Plus, while Ansom might think it work, we know it won't because of Stanley's setup; the lookamancer would find them handily.

my guess is that Jillian and Wanda are both from the 'Lost Croatan Tribe'

Possible; Wanda somehow knows Jillian is a Royal, while everyone else doesn't have a clue. Course, it could have just come out during some friendly chat after their... errr ... sessions.

... and I shudder to think what Parson-sized thing could find him attractive

One word. Bears.

[Jarawara]

... and I shudder to think what Parson-sized thing could find him attractive

One Word: "Bogroll"

That's why he was added into the storyline, as the hidden love-interest for Parson.
Three cheers for the true love-story of Erfwood!

[Lamech]

If the Dwagons can fit in "twisty little tunnels." If their breath attacks are effective in "twisty little tunnels." If they have unlimited uses of those attacks, can even use them at more then point-blank range to begin with, and can stay out of range of pikemen and other ground troops while they do so. None abilities of which we've seen demonstrated.

Your right the dwagons may not be useful. Although even if they can't get in to the tunnels any tunnels that run close to the surface could have a hole made for the dwagons to breath into along with doing things like pour boiling oil down on troops. A few breath attacks could kill a lot of troops in a tight space. If we look at the greens' breath attack on page 50 it sinks. The worst thing that could happen to Amson would be poision gas sinking through a tunnel a kill countless troops.

Of course the dwagons may be worthless, but then they could go raid other alliance cities or attack the other fliers or seal off Amson's escape routes. Plus, there would still be countless problems.

[SteveMB]

Your right the dwagons may not be useful. Although even if they can't get in to the tunnels any tunnels that run close to the surface could have a hole made for the dwagons to breath into along with doing things like pour boiling oil down on troops. A few breath attacks could kill a lot of troops in a tight space. If we look at the greens' breath attack on page 50 it sinks. The worst thing that could happen to Amson would be poision gas sinking through a tunnel a kill countless troops.

It's occurred to me that perhaps the reason a green is Wanda's choice of riding dwagon is that its breath weapon leaves the targets in better condition for uncroaking than the others -- not singed (red or blue), not covered in goo (pink) or worse (yellow). Waste not, want not....

[Surfing HalfOrc]

One Word: "Bogroll"

That's why he was added into the storyline, as the hidden love-interest for Parson.
Three cheers for the true love-story of Erfwood!

You know, in the Arts and Crafts section, there is an OotS House of Horrors section...

Keep it up, and there could be a "Parson's Love Interest" thread, or and Erfworld House of Horrors, then the mind would just melt!

[Radar]

The worst thing that could happen to Amson would be poision gas sinking through a tunnel a kill countless troops.

Or smoke; fire has a disterious effect in closed areas - troops will simply choke to death in tunnels. Definetly attack through tunnels is the worst possible scenario for Ansom and he knows it - that's why he insists on protecting siege engines at all cost.

Still if situation will force Ansom to enter GK through tunnels, the sneaking in plan might be considered especially because Jillian suposedly knows a secret tunnel leading in. Besides one can predict, that in case of underground battle we will see Sizemore true powers in action.

[jindra34]

I think its safe to assume that Ansom would dread going into the tunnels. If he thought there was anything more than a sliver of a chance he probably would be sending more than the marbits in as a feint.

[sihnfahl]

Still if situation will force Ansom to enter GK through tunnels, the sneaking in plan might be considered especially because Jillian suposedly knows a secret tunnel leading in. Besides one can predict, that in case of underground battle we will see Sizemore true powers in action.

Oh, I think his... specialty... would be the worst way of croaking units.

"Prince Ansom... I regret to inform you that we lost a full stack of Marbits in the tunnels. They were... smothered by... solid waste."

[Lamech]

In Klog 5 Parson writes that Sizemore dug a lot of the tunnels and built most of GK defenses, also Sizemore has "some tricks to slow them down". I'm assuming that was done with magic, so Sizemore might be able to do things like collaspe tunnels. Even if he was just lead the builders he would still be able to devise traps or some such.

[Vreejack]

In Klog 5 Parson writes that Sizemore dug a lot of the tunnels and built most of GK defenses, also Sizemore has "some tricks to slow them down". I'm assuming that was done with magic, so Sizemore might be able to do things like collaspe tunnels. Even if he was just lead the builders he would still be able to devise traps or some such.

I find it very hard to believe that the defenders wouldn't set up a lot of traps. They have had all the time they might need to prepare, and the attackers have no way to see what has been done. Given that the simplest and most deadly sort of trap is a straightforward cave-in I would not want to be in amongst the attacking party.

[Midgititp]

It seems to me that a battle in the tunnels wouldn't be as one-sided as many seem to think. Although numerical superiority will not affect the casualty rates the fact that Ansom has more warlords capable of leading the tunnel fighting will. (and more that can be lost)

The traps will likely slow the attacking troops down but no one on either side seems to see the traps doing much more than slowing down Ansom's troops. In any case, even if Parson wins this 'little battle' the real fighting is still ahead.

[sihnfahl]

The traps will likely slow the attacking troops down but no one on either side seems to see the traps doing much more than slowing down Ansom's troops. In any case, even if Parson wins this 'little battle' the real fighting is still ahead.

Personally, I see a collapsing of the tunnels, or even magically putting a few hundred tons of rock in the way, would slow someone down significantly. Don't you?
And if said collapse was engineered to be right on top of the Alliance troops...

[ag30476]

Personally, I see a collapsing of the tunnels, or even magically putting a few hundred tons of rock in the way, would slow someone down significantly. Don't you?
And if said collapse was engineered to be right on top of the Alliance troops...

I agree but [nitpick] in the real world you can't always collapse a tunnel to defend it, not if by doing so you collapsed the walls on top of the tunnel or if the tunnel supplied the city with water, etc [/nitpick]. But this is Erf so who knows?

Anyway, as has been metioned by many before, without getting into details of Erf-tunnel warfare, it's safe to say that if Ansom did not look forward to tunnel warfare when he had the option of the siege, then without the siege, the tunnel fighting becomes less attractive. And, without the siege, if the prospect of success in the tunnels drops enough then the coalition might just give up on taking Gobwin Knob altogether.

[Lamech]

The point I was trying to make with my last post was that Sizemore can do more than attack with solid waste, and that his magic probably doesn't deal exclusively with it. I'm sorry my last post was a little confusing.

Anyway more to the point. It is possible that GK has placed gates of some sort in the tunnels which the siege might be helpful or needed for. That way GK could seal off the tunnels with out collapsing the walls or anything important. Also if there are gates the deadliest traps are by the gates. Then the alliance would not only be slowed down, but they would be slowed down in a place that kills many, many soldiers.

the fact that Ansom has more warlords capable of leading the tunnel fighting will. (and more that can be lost)

While Amson may have more warlords, if Wanda can uncroak them that could change.

The traps will likely slow the attacking troops down but no one on either side seems to see the traps doing much more than slowing down Ansom's troops.

I see traps killing alot of troops, but maybe Stanley choose marbit safe traps.

And, yes the real fighting is still ahead.

[Midgititp]

As pointed out before, Ansom doesn't really care if he loses lots of men. He has several times more than he already needs. And recall the introduction to the story, it seems like the Marbits are a tunnel based group (or at least decent at mining), so any cave ins can be dug through.

But lets suppose that the traps kill half of Ansom's army (doubtful right?) then Ansom still has tons of soldiers left over to take GK. So the traps can't secure victory, they can only slow Ansom down.

As for uncroaking, remember first that you have to kill them, which itself will be a challenge since their leadership bonuses add to the stack's strength. And I would doubt it if Wanda can uncroak enemy warlords, but there's nothing so far to say she can't.

[Aquillion]

But lets suppose that the traps kill half of Ansom's army (doubtful right?) then Ansom still has tons of soldiers left over to take GK. So the traps can't secure victory, they can only slow Ansom down.

As for uncroaking, remember first that you have to kill them, which itself will be a challenge since their leadership bonuses add to the stack's strength. And I would doubt it if Wanda can uncroak enemy warlords, but there's nothing so far to say she can't.

Yes, but what if they kill half his army, then uncroak it? Suddenly things look much less rosy.

[nooblade]

I think that part of the reason why marbits are natural tunnel fighters, like goblins, is that they are capable of tunneling themselves out if they get stuck in a trap/collapsed area. Maybe that will influence the result of the underground battle. Another thing to consider is that, while a handful of marbits are fighting at one point in a system of tunnels, another few groups can be tunneling around in different directions, making attack more chaotic. There's probably no telling where those guys will be coming from.

Its interesting how this has also turned into a discussion of necromancy. But Ansom said he's hoping that uncroaked will be committed to tunnel fighting. If Ansom has a significant advantage in marbits vs goblins, then some uncroaked might need to be sent down there to prevent other goblins from being attacked from behind by a group of tunneling marbits. Maybe Sizemore's modifications address this? He might be able to make some sections of rock more resistant to tunneling.

[Lamech]

Tunneling through solid rock will take time, and if Amson's forces won't have time if there being shot at through murder holes, or if someone is pouring boiling oil on top of them.

Worse the tunneling will be all too visible to Stanley, and Amson doesn't know about the eyemancer trio. If Sizemore can magicaly cave in the new tunnels, it Ansom will just lose Marbits.

As pointed out before, Ansom doesn't really care if he loses lots of men. He has several times more than he already needs. And recall the introduction to the story, it seems like the Marbits are a tunnel based group (or at least decent at mining), so any cave ins can be dug through.

But lets suppose that the traps kill half of Ansom's army (doubtful right?) then Amson still has tons of soldiers left over to take GK. So the traps can't secure victory, they can only slow Ansom down.

As for uncroaking, remember first that you have to kill them, which itself will be a challenge since their leadership bonuses add to the stack's strength. And I would doubt it if Wanda can uncroak enemy warlords, but there's nothing so far to say she can't.

Amson only has 4 times the forces needed to take the city above ground with the siege. If going through the tunnels without siege is 4 times as difficult, the bonuses that Stanley's units will get, but some of Amson's units won't, will cause Amson to be unable to take GK.

[Smiley_]

I thought the main purpose of the tunnel battle was to draw forces away from Gobwin Knob. Ansom is probably only going to commit the marbits as planned. If they live, well then, thats good for Ansom. If they all croak, then they hopefully pulled forces out of the city.

If there are traps in the caves, Ansom still has all of his non-marbit forces, perhaps without the siege. There are still the elves, battle bears (maybe, Parson ordered Manpower and the rest to attack the Battle Bears as a secondary target), cloth golems, tcotchkes (whatever they are) sourmanders, and a whole mess of other stuff.

So even if Parson can pull out a victory in the tunnels, it still might not be significant.

[sihnfahl]

I think that part of the reason why marbits are natural tunnel fighters, like goblins, is that they are capable of tunneling themselves out if they get stuck in a trap/collapsed area.

Or they just get tunnel bonuses because they, like the gobwins, naturally live underground, in caves and in tunnels, much like how the woodsy elves are Forest-capable units.

Its interesting how this has also turned into a discussion of necromancy. But Ansom said he's hoping that uncroaked will be committed to tunnel fighting. If Ansom has a significant advantage in marbits vs goblins, then some uncroaked might need to be sent down there to prevent other goblins from being attacked from behind by a group of tunneling marbits.

No, just from sheer numbers doing frontal charges. Remember, Stanley's rather light on living units at the moment. Ansom has a -lot- of marbits. By flooding the existing tunnels with marbits, Ansom hoped Stanley would take the bait and commit some of the troops that could fight off the siege units to the underground battle.
But it was purely diversionary. He had no serious plan to actually get into GK through the tunnels. He's no fool (reckless sometimes, yes, but not a fool); he probably suspects that the tunnels are trapped in all sorts of ways... and that, if his troops actually made it close to the end of the tunnel, Stanley would probably just set a dwagon at each entrance and flame the marbits as they came close... if he didn't collapse the tunnel entirely...

[datalaughing]

If there are traps in the caves, Ansom still has all of his non-marbit forces, perhaps without the siege. There are still the elves, battle bears (maybe, Parson ordered Manpower and the rest to attack the Battle Bears as a secondary target), cloth golems, tcotchkes (whatever they are) sourmanders, and a whole mess of other stuff.

But the point that has been made repeatedly is that without the siege the original plan is screwed. Ansom and his commanders have stated multiple times that the siege engines are necessary. Without them Ansom's people probably won't be able to breach the huge walls defending GK. That's the basis for this entire thread. If Parson fries the siege Ansom can't breach the walls and has to fight another way, eg. by sending people through the tunnels.

[Midgititp]

Aquillon, I don't think you can uncroak enemy units en masse like that. If that were possible, why wouldn't that have been done before by Wanda. This is not the first major battle and Stanley has lost a lot of men prior to this.

So, we have to conclude that the reanimation of dead takes too much time to become a significant issue in the battle.

But lets think about this, is there another way that Ansom can do the siege without the siege engines?

[SauroGrenom]

One thing that comes to mind is that the concentration of forces that results from the tunnel fighting can be good or bad for either side of a particular battle.

With any bottle neck, what really matters is the strength of the plug.

It really comes down to the question of who has the tougher single stack. The tunnels will take away (or decrease) advantages of numbers, but there is still the open question of who's strongest stack of infantry is stronger.

Can Stanley build a stack of infantry tough enough to mow through the toughest stack Ansom can build? Ansom clearly has very tough infantry, and lots of leaders. I just don't see how any of Stanley's units are tougher than Ansom's "Heavies" stacked with tons of leaders. Stanley's strongest units are the dwagons, and it's unclear if they can fight in the tunnels at all. If Stanley cannot put together a defending infantry stack to beat Ansom's toughest attacking stack, then Ansom will eventually push through the defenses.