Star Trek Discovery, finally a trailer

[Cikomyr]

Because she has to be perfect, but not too perfect, wouldn't want her to be a Mary Sue. :rolleyes:.

You should watch Overly Sarcastic Production's video on the trope of Mary Sue. Its really enlightening.

Basically, we have codified an entire language meant for the sole purpose of discrediting female characters. Female characters should never be too perfect because they could be "Mary Sue", so many are written in with deliberate, arbitrary flaws to avoid the Mary Sue accusation. But its not any better.

Basically, a perfect feminine character is aberrant is obviously bad writing. While a perfect masculine character is standard and you can start an entire Dragonball franchise around the Superpowered Character without anyone ever flinching.

[Chen]

Basically, a perfect feminine character is aberrant is obviously bad writing. While a perfect masculine character is standard and you can start an entire Dragonball franchise around the Superpowered Character without anyone ever flinching.

To stay kinda on topic here, I'd remind you of the disdain people have for characters like Wesley Crusher another stereotypical "Gary Stu" character. It's not about perfect characters, its particularly about a character who is good at everything, always. Kirk himself is almost certainly another "Gary Stu". Some episodes of Voyager had Janeway take on the "Mary Sue" role too, though it was far less blatant than Kirk or Wesley.

[Cikomyr]

Viritually everything about the pilot was contrived, the characters uninteresting and their behavior unbelievable. Beyond this—there isn’t even a nod to the deep spirit of Star Trek, which is about peaceful exploration and the wonder of the unknown.

I think you confuse Framing and Theme here.

The Exploration framing device was a mean for going into Gene Roddenbury's core theme of Star Trek. And the real theme of Star Trek is that humanity can become, as a whole, a peaceful and united people that bypassed misery, suffering and prejudices.

Exploration is merely a way to show this utopia and contrast it against others, which often represented our current sins and drawbacks. Basically, Star Trek is alike to an Anthropomorphic Personification show where the main character is the Avatar of what is great about humanity, and the enemies/antagonists are what holds us back as a specie.

That is the thematic core of Star Trek. And this is why DS9 is more of a Star Trek show, by taking its framing elsewhere than "Exploration" and yet still being about the better angels of our nature (also asking why we deserve to become angels, how can angels continuosly deal with those who arent angels, etc..) while Voyager was just meaningless Exploration and autoritarian pseudo morality.

Now. Is this Star Trek about how we can be a better people? With other species representing what is wrong about us, and how we can deal with it?

If it is, then i dont care a fig about the lack of Exploration. Because the only exploration that matters is that exploration of our own nature. Since fantasy sci-fi worlds dont exist. But our own nature does.

[Cikomyr]

To stay kinda on topic here, I'd remind you of the disdain people have for characters like Wesley Crusher another stereotypical "Gary Stu" character. It's not about perfect characters, its particularly about a character who is good at everything, always. Kirk himself is almost certainly another "Gary Stu". Some episodes of Voyager had Janeway take on the "Mary Sue" role too, though it was far less blatant than Kirk or Wesley.

Very good point! I will have to reflect a bit longer on the Wesley Situation. I completely forgot about him (but lets be fair; I think everyone tries to wipe Wesley from their memory)

As for Janeway.. i dont know. I mean, that is one weird can of worm. Because the writers actually stated that they wanted absolutely no other characters to challenge her, otherwise the audience wouldnt accept her as a Captain.

This is why the Maquis storyline was dropped. Nobody could criticize Janeway's actions, so there was a framing of deliberate Mary Sue enforced by the writers (coming from condescension), but they also were pretty stupid in the way they wrote her, so she still consistently showed flaws and made stupid decision that no one could ever call her on.

Compare to Sisko. Who screwed up and was chewed on when it happened.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader
So, did you even watch the show?

If you read my longer post, with spoilers, you know that I have.

The moments that you cite may give a little lip service, but it feels superficial to me. The entire premise of the pilot, from what I can tell, is telling the story of how the XO helped to start a war with the Klingons. From everything I saw, the entire series will be oriented around fighting the relentlessly violent space barbarians. That’s not the Trek I want.

Originally Posted by Legato Endless
But the execution is sloppy and the dialogue is a clunky exchange of two people explaining what they both should already know.

This is exactly my frustration with the writing. The dialogue was meant for the audience, but it makes no sense in character.

That’s not just sloppy, that’s lazy. The writers should know better.

Originally Posted by Legato Endless
The show goes so far past that it's difficult to believe she's a trained officer, much less a product of Vulcan discipline and foresight.

Absolutely this. The XO is acting fundamentally contrary to everything we’ve been told about her training and childhood.

Yes, she was traumatized by the loss of her parents, but that’s not an excuse to dismiss her training wholesale. There is no in-character justification for how she’s behaving.

Originally Posted by Cikomyr
…i dont care a fig about the lack of Exploration. Because the only exploration that matters is that exploration of our own nature.

That may be all you derive from it, but I find this perspective very limited. Trek at its best can combine the exploration of both inner and outer space, with neither aspect glorified above the other.

And I don’t believe for a minute that Roddenberry only intended for Star Trek to be a morality play and nothing more. Trek was developed during the classic Space Age, when there was genuine excitement and fascination about the prospect of reaching out into the universe. The embers of that fascination may have burned sullen and low in today’s cynical, self-centered culture, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a part of Trek’s heart and soul at the outset.

[Scowling Dragon]

While a perfect masculine character is standard and you can start an entire Dragonball franchise around the Superpowered Character without anyone ever flinching.

Understand goshdarned Genre! DBZ is a Shonnen Series made to sell plastic crap to young boys at the age of 12. And the series gets TONS of **** for just riding on nostalgia and shoving all its characters to the side to focus on the charisma vacume that is Goku.

Nobody Bats an Eye at Kill La Kill (Except for people who focus on the dresswear thats aperantly apropriate at a pride parade but not in animation). But actually that show has WAY better writing and character balance, and a character that has growth, and progression, and its its fun, and revels in rediculousnes...

Point being your full of it.

[Dragonus45]

So MovieBob REALLY loved the first 3 episodes so far. Is it a good watch?

Moviebob has a lot of biases that all line up pretty well for making him not reliable for this sort of thing,

Well, a female black main character being perceived as obnoxious by default in geek fandom is par for the course, sadly.

Or characters who could give the classical Mary Sue a run a run for her money tend to be perceived as obnoxious by default in the geek fandom, and its not a sexist term get over yourself. Sure being well acted and having some personality dulls the pain now that we have seen the show but don't pretend that this new main character doesn't check of plenty of boxes in the too good to be true box.

[Chen]

As for Janeway.. i dont know. I mean, that is one weird can of worm. Because the writers actually stated that they wanted absolutely no other characters to challenge her, otherwise the audience wouldnt accept her as a Captain.

This is why the Maquis storyline was dropped. Nobody could criticize Janeway's actions, so there was a framing of deliberate Mary Sue enforced by the writers (coming from condescension), but they also were pretty stupid in the way they wrote her, so she still consistently showed flaws and made stupid decision that no one could ever call her on.

Janeway was less common but there are definitely episodes where for some reason she's the one to come up with the engineering solution or the tactical solution or the medical solution to the problem and shows up the respective chief on the matter. She was very like Kirk in those moments. Not that captains can't have the good idea but it was always done so poorly on Voyager that you noticed the disconnect there.

[Cikomyr]

Janeway was less common but there are definitely episodes where for some reason she's the one to come up with the engineering solution or the tactical solution or the medical solution to the problem and shows up the respective chief on the matter. She was very like Kirk in those moments. Not that captains can't have the good idea but it was always done so poorly on Voyager that you noticed the disconnect there.

Oh, i agree that she was technically competent on multiple sides. Maybe too many, but i dont really worry about those. Starfleet Captain & all

I think the issue comes from acually blatant wrong judgement calls. Ya know, the sort of errors only a Captain is in a position to make.

[ImperiousLeader]

If you read my longer post, with spoilers, you know that I have.

The moments that you cite may give a little lip service, but it feels superficial to me. The entire premise of the pilot, from what I can tell, is telling the story of how the XO helped to start a war with the Klingons. From everything I saw, the entire series will be oriented around fighting the relentlessly violent space barbarians. That’s not the Trek I want.

Since I can't argue feelings, I'll just say that I feel like you've created a Star Trek purity test that 75% of past Star Trek doesn't pass. "Relentlessly violent space barbarians"? Um, okay. So, why were the TOS Klingons so well developed? Don't like war stories? Guess DS9 isn't Star Trek enough. "Lip service"? Let's junk half of TNG were they're busy conducting negotiations or rescuing space colonies, cause that ain't real exploration.

That may be all you derive from it, but I find this perspective very limited. Trek at its best can combine the exploration of both inner and outer space, with neither aspect glorified above the other.

And I don’t believe for a minute that Roddenberry only intended for Star Trek to be a morality play and nothing more. Trek was developed during the classic Space Age, when there was genuine excitement and fascination about the prospect of reaching out into the universe. The embers of that fascination may have burned sullen and low in today’s cynical, self-centered culture, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a part of Trek’s heart and soul at the outset.

Again, Burnham is literally making a log, where she finds beauty and poetry in a binary star system, and that isn't enough? Her examination of the artifact, she's literally in awe of it as she's making her report.

"First officer's log, stardate 1207.3. On Earth, it's May 11, 2256, a Sunday. The crew of the USS Shenzhou has been called to the edge of Federation space to investigate damage done to one of our interstellar relays. Blast burns around the hole are inconclusive. Were they caused by an asteroid, or was it deliberately destroyed to limit Starfleet communications? And if so, by whom? Despite the risks of our mission, I remain optimistic. It's hard not to be in the face of such beauty – in this case, a binary star system. Around these two suns, ice, dust, and gasses collide to form planets future generations will call home. A humbling reminder that all life is born from chaos and destruction."

But no, this fails the Star Trek purity test. Geez, does "Space, the Final Frontier" fail too?

[SuperPanda]

I'm somewhat confused by the reactions I'm seeing to the XO. Over in the Orville thread she's being called more incompetent than anyone on that crew by a long shot. Over here she's being called "too perfect to be true." Both can't be true.

I think part of this is people checking out before a relevant conversation with the Captain in episode 2. It's heavily implied (if not outright stated) that Burnnam is the captain's pet project as much as her officer. She's been trying to re-integrate the young woman to human society and guide her progress - but she feared that the young woman's trauma and conditioning on Vulcan had left irreparable damage.

I see people saying that she should have better control over her emotions. My question there is: why? Vulcans have never been good at teaching someone to deal with their emotions - they only suppress them. For Vulcans that works because of their new-spiritual psychic powers - which humans lack. The XO clearly had a major issue with Klingons and Serek's idea of Therepy was to bombard her with reminders of that trauma until she shut down (punishing her for showing her distress and rewarding her for hiding it - all while a small child and all while it was still fresh in her mind).


Add onto that her casual arrogance, obvious delight in discovering the new/beautiful, and her assertion that her emotions serve logic (which is delivered as a rebuke to Serek in order to demand respect). What you have is a character who thinks herself perfect - but who everyone else thinks of as damaged and in need of help.

With that in mind I read the captain's "I think your ready for a command" bit as part test and part setting up that the Captain has let her guard down to her XO's issues. The Captain herself calls herself stupid for even thinking it after the events of episode 1 - suggesting that the inappropriate acts there were not normal (but completely understandable if under extreme emotional duress from facing the Klingons again).

Then looking at her plan - by the time she advocates for a Vulcan Hello, the other Klingons would have arrived to see a Federations ship firing on what is presented and a flying temple ... war started (though it would have been more satisfying that way).

Then when she's had a chance to think she advocates not killing the Klingon leader - which is actually logical and so the Captain listens. We see a glimps of who she is when she's not in extreme internal conflict. She's not perfect, but she's not incompetent either.

Lastly, (Spoiler warning for end of Episode 2)




there is the brawl on the Klingon ship. Her and he Captain are fighting physically superior opponents and the Captain is in trouble. The Klingon is between her and the Captain when she gets her weapon back. She switchs it to the skill setting, hesitates and fires. The scene is edited poorly, showing us her Captain's fate before she fired. But she also has a moment afterward where she seemed to realize the weight of what she did (reinforcing that she wasn't really thinking in the moment). Her emotions took over and it cost her a mother figure and cost the Federation peace.

Lasting personal and in universe consequence.

I'm not sure I trust Discovery to allow that to build and properly pay-off, but the potential is there. Burnnam is a deeply flawed character with a lot of room for real growth. The real series trailer at the end suggests that the writers are going to be heavy handed with everyone hating her, and her hating herself, But a new-different mentor figure trying to redeem her. It could work. I'm worried by how heavy handed it looked, but I felt that way before now and they pleasantly surprised me once. That buys them the benefit of the doubt.

[Velaryon]

I'm somewhat confused by the reactions I'm seeing to the XO. Over in the Orville thread she's being called more incompetent than anyone on that crew by a long shot. Over here she's being called "too perfect to be true." Both can't be true.

I'll agree that the criticism of the Burnham appears somewhat overblown to me. Her leaping immediately to mutiny when the captain doesn't go along with her suggestion is definitely behavior that should have prevented her from rising as high as she has in the Federation. Even before that though, we see her talking over other officers including the captain, and seeming to suffer no repercussions for it. This isn't "Anakin Skywalker in the Star Wars prequels" levels of emotional immaturity that get ignored by everyone around the main character, but it honestly does kinda remind me of that.

Sure, there's an in-universe explanation in that Sarek did a piss-poor job of teaching her to manage her emotions, but it's hard to believe that a character this obviously emotionally crippled could have risen to the rank where her captain thinks she's ready for command. I think the intention is to show us that she's pretty competent and in control except where Klingons are involved, but it felt kinda rushed to me, and didn't come off well as a result.

I think part of this is people checking out before a relevant conversation with the Captain in episode 2. It's heavily implied (if not outright stated) that Burnnam is the captain's pet project as much as her officer. She's been trying to re-integrate the young woman to human society and guide her progress - but she feared that the young woman's trauma and conditioning on Vulcan had left irreparable damage.

Well, that's CBS's fault for putting the show behind a paywall. And doubly so for only showing half the pilot on broadcast TV instead of the full two hours, which is what they should have done given what you're telling us about how it changes the way we look at the first episode.

[Kitten Champion]

So, I saw it. Kinda. The last five-or-so minutes of episode 2 were cut off because of the way our PVR works and the show deciding to go into the next hour. Rather annoyed about that.

It was okay, but other than Michelle Yeoh there's not much that I can point to and say "I really liked that". Felt a lot like the Warcraft movie, particularly if you take their version of Klingons as space Orcs.

My biggest singular issue is its willingness to bend itself to get the shot, that trailer-perfect image they desperately want. From the opening shot on the desert planet, to the EVA suit romp, through the Klingon's aesthetic in general, to the guy showing up at brig to be blown away -- you can see the mind working backwards from the story to get those images in there somewhere at some point.

[JadedDM]

Having finally caught up on the two episodes, here is what I thought as a lifelong Star Trek fan.

I liked it. The constant dutch angles and lens flares were sort of disorienting (they were really bad on any scene with the bridge), but I think I eventually got used to them.

Aside from that, though, I liked it. It was intense and riveting. I'm very curious to see where they take this show. It looks like it will be more storyarc based than episodic, like Deep Space Nine.

I really don't care about the Klingons' appearance. But then I'm one of the few Trekkies who didn't feel they needed to explain why Klingons look different in TOS and later series. I am more curious about their religious beliefs. That seems to go against what I know about Klingons, but it might be that this is some kind of cult. Or that's the impression I got, anyway. If they are moving away from the "Planet of Hats" thing, I'm okay with that.

I do wish they had chosen a different alien for the science officer than making up a new one. I've always felt like Star Trek has too many alien races as it is. But maybe they have some specific reason for going this route, I don't know. I would have liked to have seen an Andorian or Tellarite on the bridge instead. But then again, maybe there will be one. We haven't even actually seen the titular Discovery yet.

After hearing about the troubled production of this show, I was pretty worried. But so far, I'm pretty happy with it. I only hope it doesn't lose steam later in the season.

[Baby Gary]

I want to point out a couple things that no one (afaik) has pointed out.

the opening credits! I personally loved them they had a really cool look to them, just amazing. The opening credits are quite important and at least they got that right.

but the music!!!!! first, no real theme that I got from the first episode, I couldn't get any idea of any theme. Also the music for all the scenes was boring, it was expected. There were no instructing musical parts anywhere in this.

and the setting. what setting? you may ask. Exactly! there is none. this has really annoyed me. it doesn't have that star trek feel that I love

[Olinser]

I'm somewhat confused by the reactions I'm seeing to the XO. Over in the Orville thread she's being called more incompetent than anyone on that crew by a long shot. Over here she's being called "too perfect to be true." Both can't be true.

I think part of this is people checking out before a relevant conversation with the Captain in episode 2. It's heavily implied (if not outright stated) that Burnnam is the captain's pet project as much as her officer. She's been trying to re-integrate the young woman to human society and guide her progress - but she feared that the young woman's trauma and conditioning on Vulcan had left irreparable damage.

I see people saying that she should have better control over her emotions. My question there is: why? Vulcans have never been good at teaching someone to deal with their emotions - they only suppress them. For Vulcans that works because of their new-spiritual psychic powers - which humans lack. The XO clearly had a major issue with Klingons and Serek's idea of Therepy was to bombard her with reminders of that trauma until she shut down (punishing her for showing her distress and rewarding her for hiding it - all while a small child and all while it was still fresh in her mind).


Add onto that her casual arrogance, obvious delight in discovering the new/beautiful, and her assertion that her emotions serve logic (which is delivered as a rebuke to Serek in order to demand respect). What you have is a character who thinks herself perfect - but who everyone else thinks of as damaged and in need of help.

With that in mind I read the captain's "I think your ready for a command" bit as part test and part setting up that the Captain has let her guard down to her XO's issues. The Captain herself calls herself stupid for even thinking it after the events of episode 1 - suggesting that the inappropriate acts there were not normal (but completely understandable if under extreme emotional duress from facing the Klingons again).

Then looking at her plan - by the time she advocates for a Vulcan Hello, the other Klingons would have arrived to see a Federations ship firing on what is presented and a flying temple ... war started (though it would have been more satisfying that way).

Then when she's had a chance to think she advocates not killing the Klingon leader - which is actually logical and so the Captain listens. We see a glimps of who she is when she's not in extreme internal conflict. She's not perfect, but she's not incompetent either.

Lastly, (Spoiler warning for end of Episode 2)




there is the brawl on the Klingon ship. Her and he Captain are fighting physically superior opponents and the Captain is in trouble. The Klingon is between her and the Captain when she gets her weapon back. She switchs it to the skill setting, hesitates and fires. The scene is edited poorly, showing us her Captain's fate before she fired. But she also has a moment afterward where she seemed to realize the weight of what she did (reinforcing that she wasn't really thinking in the moment). Her emotions took over and it cost her a mother figure and cost the Federation peace.

Lasting personal and in universe consequence.

I'm not sure I trust Discovery to allow that to build and properly pay-off, but the potential is there. Burnnam is a deeply flawed character with a lot of room for real growth. The real series trailer at the end suggests that the writers are going to be heavy handed with everyone hating her, and her hating herself, But a new-different mentor figure trying to redeem her. It could work. I'm worried by how heavy handed it looked, but I felt that way before now and they pleasantly surprised me once. That buys them the benefit of the doubt.

Actually both can be true, if you're mis-interpreting the criticism of her.

She's not too good to be true. Everybody in-universe ACTS like she's too good to be true, despite her poor decisions, lack of discipline, lack of respect for others on command staff, and displayed emotional immaturity. Those aren't necessarily deal killers for somebody in Starfleet (many junior officers and crew in other series displayed worse traits), but as Michelle Yeoh's protege that she said is already ready for command? Absurd.

Not unlike Wesley Crusher. What killed him for a huge amount of people wasn't so much the character himself, but other character's insistence on gushing about how brilliant and awesome he was, despite ample evidence to the contrary regarding his poor decisions, and the writer's insistence on having other crew members suddenly lose 1/2 their IQ points so Wesley can save the day by doing their job for them.

When in-universe character opinions of a character radically diverge from audience perception of a character's actions on-screen, you have a problem. In fact on Tvtropes this used to be named The Wesley.

[SuperPanda]

I get where you are comming from - only I didn't see everyone in universe gushing about this character.

We see the Captain privately say she thinks the XO is ready for command, a comment which is somewhat colored by conversation in episode 2 (as I mentioned in the quoted post).

Other than that we see Serek who doesn't seem to respect her that much. The science officer who clashes with her. The Helmsman who refers to her as "number one" as well and seems very young (I read him having a crush on her in his actions)... the only one playing up how "perfect" she is is herself. The others seem to be letting it slide, either because she outhanks them (Science officer and helmsman), they are terrible at relationships (Serek), Or they are emotionally invested in building her up (The captain).

Is she in the wrong this episode? Heck yeah. She clearly suffers an emotional break (which makes sense given that she never learned to process emotion - only suppress it). Her arrogance (the character flaw you picked up on and disliked) led her to dismiss her own flaws and then caused her to completely dismantle everything she'd ever built.

In the court martial scene she is not defiant in the slightest - she is completely broken and resigned to the fate she is getting. She looks and sounds like she knows she deserves to be hated.

I too have a problem with how they get from here to where she is suppose to be on the USS Discovery. Her actions before the Klingon ship are disgraceful to the extreme - but they are understandable. They are unacceptable, and she seems to be aware of that - so the right person could see her as redeemable. Her greater crime was her heat of the moment act at the end of Episode 2 - an act which is far more forgiveable than the other issues. It is possible for that to work, though I still think it is unliekly.

I mentioned before in thread that I noticed a lot of clunk writing and effects which I felt obscured the subtly in the chsracterzation for the first officer, and I could completely understand how that could lead people to assume that the everything was just the result of bad writing and directing. I also conceded that I could be wrong in my views and just am too generous to things right now because I want it to be good. I need to see more to know for sure.

So I do get the criticism - and I've expressed that I understand how the writing might feel like it did not measure up. I also explained why I feel it was unfair and that I will only know for sure if I'm right or wrong after seeing more. It is clear you don't care about finding out if there was something deeper going on and are checked out. I hope you find something you enjoy to explore further. If you are interested I should be in a better position to defend / conceed my point in a few more weeks, when I've seen more of the show.

Edit: just in case it comes up: I enjoyed Star Trek 2009 but it really bugged me that Kirk got the Federation flagship just out of the academy after everything he's pulled. That was seriously stupid.

If episode 3 of Discovery is "you will be transported to prison on the Discovery - oh look now you are forgiven and XO again" it will be just as stupid as before and I will happily concede I was very wrong.

If she is recommissioned as an officer (but not XO) and then works to earn back respect over the season - then I'd be more forgiving of that (Because that's basically Tom Paris of Voyager). I wouldn't mind seeing a redemption arch where the chsracter has to work for it - and I am expecting that.

[Kitten Champion]

I didn't see much gushing either. They seem to understandably accept the person they've been presented with over the last 7 years of peaceful space exploration, particularly for the Captain who admits to being somewhat willfully blind to her flaws because of her own ego as her mentor.

Rather, Michael's issue is more of that the pilot needs to hastily establish her character so that you in the audience understand she is in fact acting acting outside of it, at least once she's confronted with the Klingons and what they represent to her... and it's just not something you can do well in such a limited time-frame, though the actors certainly try.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If episode 3 of Discovery is "you will be transported to prison on the Discovery - oh look now you are forgiven and XO again" it will be just as stupid as before and I will happily concede I was very wrong.

If she is recommissioned as an officer (but not XO) and then works to earn back respect over the season - then I'd be more forgiving of that (Because that's basically Tom Paris of Voyager). I wouldn't mind seeing a redemption arch where the chsracter has to work for it - and I am expecting that.

My guess is some high ranking officer, probably with a bit a a Picard vibe to him/her is going to say "you took the wrong actions, but for the right reasons, as the only person in the fleet who analyzed the Klingons' actions right. So here's a ship". From there on she will try her best not to ambush more of her own people and it will become known as a case of early installment weirdness from before the writers really found their stride. But I'd be happily surprised if she got to actually work to regain the Federation's and her colleagues' trust. Would be kind of cool too, a Star Trek series were arguably the main character is not the captain (commander Sisko doesn't count because he was in charge as a captain would be), not yet at least.

[Chen]

My guess is some high ranking officer, probably with a bit a a Picard vibe to him/her is going to say "you took the wrong actions, but for the right reasons, as the only person in the fleet who analyzed the Klingons' actions right. So here's a ship". From there on she will try her best not to ambush more of her own people and it will become known as a case of early installment weirdness from before the writers really found their stride. But I'd be happily surprised if she got to actually work to regain the Federation's and her colleagues' trust. Would be kind of cool too, a Star Trek series were arguably the main character is not the captain (commander Sisko doesn't count because he was in charge as a captain would be), not yet at least.

The trailers make it look like USS Discovery and it's captain are somewhat off normal compared to other Starfleet ships. It's not clear whether they're mavericks or more but there's something non-standard going on there. I also wonder how much time passes between the two episodes. I have a feeling its not immediate since again in the trailer the people seem to already know about her actions. Until I see it, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt they'll somehow transition this better than they did with giving Kirk the Enterprise (BOTH times).

[Rogar Demonblud]

I do wish they had chosen a different alien for the science officer than making up a new one. I've always felt like Star Trek has too many alien races as it is. But maybe they have some specific reason for going this route, I don't know. I would have liked to have seen an Andorian or Tellarite on the bridge instead. But then again, maybe there will be one. We haven't even actually seen the titular Discovery yet.

We have seen the cast lists. The only alien in the main cast is Doug Jones' character from the premiere. Everyone else is human. The only other aliens mentioned at this point are Sarek and the Klingons (sounds like a college band).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader
Again, Burnham is literally making a log, where she finds beauty and poetry in a binary star system, and that isn't enough?

I’m not claiming the character didn’t feel these things. I’m saying that the emphasis of the show seems to be on yet another space war, rather than exploration and wonder.

You may not consider that a distinction worth making, but I do.

Originally Posted by SuperPanda
I'm somewhat confused by the reactions I'm seeing to the XO. Over in the Orville thread she's being called more incompetent than anyone on that crew by a long shot. Over here she's being called "too perfect to be true." Both can't be true.

Well, I’m certainly not calling her perfect.

And after the third episode of Orville, I have to say that at this point they're doing Trek better than Discovery does.

Originally Posted SuperPanda
I think part of this is people checking out before a relevant conversation with the Captain in episode 2.

Originally Posted by Velaryon
Well, that's CBS's fault for putting the show behind a paywall. And doubly so for only showing half the pilot on broadcast TV instead of the full two hours, which is what they should have done given what you're telling us about how it changes the way we look at the first episode.

I think Velyaron is exactly right here. CBS split the pilot between two distribution models—the first half a traditional broadcast with commercials, and the second locked behind a paywall. They designed the breakpoint at a major cliffhanger in an attempt to get viewers so hyped that they would immediately sign up for the streaming service.

Unfortunately, the first half of the pilot was so terrible that it left me with zero interest in pursuing the second. If sounds as if there were developments in the second half of the pilot that brought a little more sense to the whole—but I certainly don’t care enough to pay to find out.

What I’d most like to know is how their hopeful projections of new sign-ups compared with the actual registrations on Sunday night. They were clearly hoping that Discovery would be their flagship to draw a flood of new subscriptions, and I'm curious if they fell short or met their goal.

Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
My biggest singular issue is its willingness to bend itself to get the shot, that trailer-perfect image they desperately want. From the opening shot on the desert planet, to the EVA suit romp, through the Klingon's aesthetic in general, to the guy showing up at brig to be blown away -- you can see the mind working backwards from the story to get those images in there somewhere at some point.

Very true, although this is how a lot of film and TV writing works, for better or for worse.

Originally Posted by Baby Gary
The opening credits are quite important and at least they got that right.

The credits were interesting, and I liked the visual style of them, although very different from typical Trek.

But what I found frustrating was that the credits featured the Discovery itself, which never even appeared during the broadcast of the first episode.

Originally Posted by Olinser
Everybody in-universe ACTS like she's too good to be true, despite her poor decisions, lack of discipline, lack of respect for others on command staff, and displayed emotional immaturity. Those aren't necessarily deal killers for somebody in Starfleet (many junior officers and crew in other series displayed worse traits), but as Michelle Yeoh's protege that she said is already ready for command? Absurd.

This exactly.

[Scowling Dragon]

So I just realised that the Acronym for this series is Star Trek: Discovery right?

So STD

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The trailers make it look like USS Discovery and it's captain are somewhat off normal compared to other Starfleet ships. It's not clear whether they're mavericks or more but there's something non-standard going on there. I also wonder how much time passes between the two episodes. I have a feeling its not immediate since again in the trailer the people seem to already know about her actions. Until I see it, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt they'll somehow transition this better than they did with giving Kirk the Enterprise (BOTH times).

I haven't seen all the trailers, but I looked up a pretty long one up after reading this, and I noticed most of the images are from the double pilot episode. Given the amount of stuff from elsewhere there's maybe 3 unfinished episodes in there with these two, but it could just as well be one. So at least going by that trailer and what we know now about the pilot I'm not sure if I could properly judge what the season might be like.

[Chen]

The part of the distribution model that makes no sense is that it's ONLY in the US. I watched both parts on standard TV (Space here in Canada) and will continue to do so weekly. It's just bizarre that only the US has it locked to the online platform. You'd think you'd do it for everyone. I mean it was going to get pirated anyways, but doing it this way seems to make it MUCH easier.

[JadedDM]

We have seen the cast lists. The only alien in the main cast is Doug Jones' character from the premiere. Everyone else is human. The only other aliens mentioned at this point are Sarek and the Klingons (sounds like a college band).

Oh, pooh.

Sometimes I wonder if the showrunners (like, all of them, ever since TNG and beyond) are like, ashamed of Tellarites and Andorians or something. I mean, their makeup can't be that expensive, can it?

At least one of the Federation ships that fought in the Battle of the Binary Stars was named the USS Shran.

So I just realised that the Acronym for this series is Star Trek: Discovery right?

So STD

That joke is so played out by this point, it stopped being funny (if it ever was in the first place) long before the pilot aired.

In any case, that would make Deep Space 9 "STD" as well. That's not how the Star Trek acronyms work. It's:

The Original Series (TOS)
The Animated Series (TAS)
The Next Generation (TNG)
Deep Space 9 (DS9)
Voyager (VOY)
Enterprise (ENT)
Discovery (DIS)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Chen
The part of the distribution model that makes no sense is that it's ONLY in the US. I watched both parts on standard TV (Space here in Canada) and will continue to do so weekly.

That really is strange, and frustrating. Some sinister marketing scheme is no doubt responsible.

Seriously, this is one more reason to move to Canada. (Except for ALL THAT SNOW.)

Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon
So I just realised that the Acronym for this series is Star Trek: Discovery right?

There comes a time in every young man’s life when, with a sudden blinding flash, he realizes what the acronym of this series might stand for.

People have been chortling about that since last October at least.

[Chen]

That really is strange, and frustrating. Some sinister marketing scheme is no doubt responsible.

Seriously, this is one more reason to move to Canada. (Except for ALL THAT SNOW.)

If you include the humidity the temperature since this past weekend has been fluctuating between 90 and 104 deg F. In Montreal. It's kinda crazy. (~90 inches of snowfall this past winter total so that is still a fair bit).

[ImperiousLeader]

I haven't seen all the trailers, but I looked up a pretty long one up after reading this, and I noticed most of the images are from the double pilot episode. Given the amount of stuff from elsewhere there's maybe 3 unfinished episodes in there with these two, but it could just as well be one. So at least going by that trailer and what we know now about the pilot I'm not sure if I could properly judge what the season might be like.

That is the weird thing about the first two episodes, they're a prologue, not a pilot. It's a little like trying to evaluate Lord of the Rings after reading the Hobbit, if Bilbo had stayed the ringbearer. This isn't off the official CBS YouTube feed, but check out the promo for episode 3. It makes a few things clearer:

1. The story is definitely centred on Burnham, and it's clear that she's the scapegoat of the war. Is there a time jump?
2. The USS Discovery is ... odd. Lorca is up to something, and he's gathering a lot of scientific minds.
3. The Federation/Klingon war is not necessarily the focus of the show, but it's present. Like background radiation.
4. Mudd ... I've not seen Mudd's Women, so I'm used to the buffoon from I, Mudd. Which feels like a different guy. I'll have to watch the other Mudd episode before passing judgement.

Also, not sure what's up with the Klingons.

[Legato Endless]

The part of the distribution model that makes no sense is that it's ONLY in the US. I watched both parts on standard TV (Space here in Canada) and will continue to do so weekly. It's just bizarre that only the US has it locked to the online platform. You'd think you'd do it for everyone. I mean it was going to get pirated anyways, but doing it this way seems to make it MUCH easier.

That really is strange, and frustrating. Some sinister marketing scheme is no doubt responsible

It's actually pretty simple. CBS is an American based company. They need something to leverage their new subscription service. They aren't getting that kind of money with Netflix and local stations handling distribution outside the States. But in the US, they can get that sweet sweet money from your subscription, and from watching their commercials ($6 only gets you the shows, you need to pay $10 to be ad free), and from selling your data.

That's why Discovery's effects look so fantastic. No network show could afford that kind of expenditure, but Discovery is the gateway drug for a different revenue model for CBS.

And this is quite possibly the future even if CBS fails. Or at least the Corporate vision of what it ought to look like. Worry not international community, with Disney pulling all of its content from Netflix to create their own version, you too might eventually get to experience this. And unlike CBS, what uh...is on all access besides Trek?, Disney probably does have enough IP to lure people into this.