Speculation about Belkar's development

[Dungeon-noob]

So, we know several things about the Belkster.
1. He is going to die fairly soon, a couple of in-story weeks if Roy and the oracle are to be believed.
2. He hasn't done much genuinily evil things since girard's pyramid, even showing kindness and (some) conscience with bloodfeast and the gnome shopkeep among others.
3. He seems surprisingly upset over everything related to Durkon's death and vamping, suspecting him way before everyone else and in general seeming way angrier about it then i would expect from him.

Drawing from this, i'm getting the feeling that Belkar is going to turn less evil/somewhat good before dying, and might actually have begun to care about people in general and perhaps Durkon in particular. Someone genuinly dying for you and spending their last breath asking for you to be spared seems to affect even Belkar.

What are your thoughts on the matter? Evidence pro or con? Any crazy theories of your own? Let's hear it!

[Riftwolf]

I think 'less evil' is more appropriate than 'somewhat good'. When he performs a truly selfless act for a sentient being (not just his pets), then we can consider 'somewhat good'

[Bedinsis]

I think 'less evil' is more appropriate than 'somewhat good'. When he performs a truly selfless act for a sentient being (not just his pets), then we can consider 'somewhat good'

What about the time he freed Enor and Gannji?

[Quartz]

I don't believe Belkar is going to die. The prophecy will be subverted somehow. We've already seen one possible way with Crystal-as-golem so it won't be that.

[Kish]

50 gold says Belkar's going to die and stay dead.

[Riftwolf]

What about the time he freed Enor and Gannji?

I'd chalk that one up to the cat, personally. (I'd forgotten that one in my mental review, but would still say one questionably good act doesn't make Belkar somewhat good. Less evil still applies)

[Mandor]

While Belkar is not a paladin, I think it's worth re-reading what Soon said to Miko about what true redemption requires.
Belkar, like Miko, has done none of this. "Perhaps, if there had been more time... but perhaps not...."

Now, that said, you can make a case that that extreme degree of redemption is not needed just to stop counting as evil, and Belkar only really needs to get into the Chaotic Neutral range to avoid the real big fire down below. I don't buy it. He has too much of a past to atone for. I doubt that in Stick-verse a deathbed conversion can atone for a lifetime of casually stabbing people to take their stuff, when Devas were already rating him in kilonazi's.

The only thing Belkar *might* have going for him, is that when the oracle was on record, he never actually said Belkar would die. Merely that he will take his "last breath ever". But you tell me which is worse: dying with no rez and going to the abyss, spending eternity turned into a stone statue, or having your soul literally uncreated by the Snarl. I really don't see Belkar having a happy ending, no matter how much people enjoy him as comedy gold. I do think in the end, his death will come with an illustration of just desserts for having been a selfish bastard who had absolutely no regard for the lives of anyone he didn't already know and consider a friend.

TARQUIN considered Malack a friend and was outraged at his death. Tarquin is not exactly going to join Roy in the Heavans when it's all said and done. So I don't think Belkar caring about the "real Durkon" or about Mr. Scruffy, or other specific single beings, is going to cut the mustard with the Celestial Ratings Bureau, when he honestly doesn't give a sheet about random strangers. He's still a ruthless evil bastard, even if he's our lovable ruthless evil bastard.

[Peelee]

The only thing Belkar *might* have going for him, is that when the oracle was on record, he never actually said Belkar would die.

And even then, "on record" only means "can bypass the memory charm," so even that is pretty weak.

[wumpus]

Belkar won't become good. He might be holding on evil, but that "only" means maintaining 9000 kilo-nazis of evil. And he is hardly even *intending* to become even neutral (Mr. Scruffy might be the one intending that), he is merely faking it and many of is fans hope that he will "fake it until he makes it" (somehow in two weeks).

He's going to die. About the only reasonable non-death fate for him is to be trapped in the world inside the Snarl (although why would he stop breathing and live?). He could become undead, but considering ~Durkon* has already gone that route I don't expect Rich to repeat himself (although ~Durkon vamping him is certainly on the table).

* I've noted that the forums seem to know the name of the spirit possessing Durkon, but I seem to have missed that strip.

[Kish]

The spirit has no name. Of the names the Order suggested for Vampire Durkon, "Greg" won a small, unofficial poll a forum poster started after the strip where the Order brainstormed what to call him.

[Riftwolf]

* I've noted that the forums seem to know the name of the spirit possessing Durkon, but I seem to have missed that strip.

Pretty sure he's called Greg.
Yup.
No one's suggesting otherwise.
Not even for a joke.
All hail Phyrnglsnyx!

[TheNecrocomicon]

I also personally believe that the prophecy is going to get subverted somehow. Weasel-wording is the Oracle's stock-in-trade on so many levels and, even if what he says backed by Tiamat's divine power is true, he can withhold information as he pleases. That said, whatever does happen to Belkar seems likely (to me) to be momentous and befitting a main character of the comic.

I don't think Belkar is ever going to truly give up evil, though. Maybe temporarily for some higher purpose, but not permanently -- he seems too dedicated to his warped ideals to make such a seismic shift in his outlook.

Pretty sure he's called Greg.
Yup.
No one's suggesting otherwise.
Not even for a joke.
All hail Phyrnglsnyx!

Meh. I prefer calling it "Lurkon", but that's just me.

[Ruck]

I don't think "the prophecy is going to get subverted" because there wasn't really a prophecy. There was the Oracle sarcastically hinting that Belkar would die a couple of times before putting it on the record. The Oracle used three different metaphors for dying, two in casual conversation and one "on the record" answer. He would have had to be deliberately hinting something to Roy and Belkar knowing that there was a truth he could word similarly to what he was suggesting to trick them. And there's more evidence his sarcastic comments in conversation are accurate ("You two are late for a couple of family reunions ") than a twisted manipulation of a technical truth.

People talk about the Oracle being a Letter of the Law guy a la Tarquin, or a weasel worder, but is he, really? The only time one of his prophecies proved useless was because Roy was weasel wording. Everything he's predicted has been accurate so far.

My prediction remains that Belkar will meet a fate similar to Kraagor's. I don't know if the Snarl will consume him, but I think he will die saving the rest of the Order (or a member of the Order, or maybe O-Chul to mirror his act of abandoning him). And I think his voluntary sacrifice will be the act that pushes him into the Chaotic Neutral afterlife.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

People talk about the Oracle being a Letter of the Law guy a la Tarquin, or a weasel worder, but is he, really? The only time one of his prophecies proved useless was because Roy was weasel wording. Everything he's predicted has been accurate so far.

Not quite true. There was also his answer "in his throne room" to Roy's first-ever question to him "Where is Xykon?", back when it was just him and Durkon.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Not quite true. There was also his answer "in his throne room" to Roy's first-ever question to him "Where is Xykon?", back when it was just him and Durkon.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that, since it was outside of the main comic. It is a legitimate example of a technically true answer but not a useful one. Since then, though, his answers have tended to go in the opposite direction: Take his response to Haley's question, which was metaphorical yet led her to make the right decision. I can't 100% say with certainty what his intent was here, but when someone uses three different metaphors for the same thing, I tend to think that's the thing they're talking about.

[hamishspence]

Yeah, I'd forgotten about that, since it was outside of the main comic. It is a legitimate example of a technically true answer but not a useful one. Since then, though, his answers have tended to go in the opposite direction: Take his response to Haley's question, which was metaphorical yet led her to make the right decision.

Indeed. Being hung out of the window probably meant that, at least for that visit, all his statements would be both accurate and helpful - out of a fear of Roy doing it again.

His comments in "casual conversation" have, as mentioned, consistently been accurate too.

[Saint Jimmy]

Honestly I think he's going to get Vamped by Lurkon/UnDurkon/Greg etc. while the Order is trying to stop the vampires. He would technically breathe his last, but since they will go to the dwarves (where Lurkon is) before fighting Xyon, Rich wouldn't be writing off a well-known main character before the series is finished. It seems the most likely to me. Sorry if this doesn't make the most sense, mobile on here is not good for me.

[Mandor]

Honestly I think he's going to get Vamped by Lurkon/UnDurkon/Greg etc. while the Order is trying to stop the vampires. He would technically breathe his last, but since they will go to the dwarves (where Lurkon is) before fighting Xyon, Rich wouldn't be writing off a well-known main character before the series is finished. It seems the most likely to me. Sorry if this doesn't make the most sense, mobile on here is not good for me.

Well remember.... Vampires CAN actually breathe, if they so choose.

[Peelee]

Honestly I think he's going to get Vamped by Lurkon/UnDurkon/Greg etc. while the Order is trying to stop the vampires. He would technically breathe his last, but since they will go to the dwarves (where Lurkon is) before fighting Xyon, Rich wouldn't be writing off a well-known main character before the series is finished.

Except since the vampire is a separate entity in control of the body, that would still be writing off Belkar. Not to mention the other prophecies.

[Ruck]

Honestly I think he's going to get Vamped by Lurkon/UnDurkon/Greg etc. while the Order is trying to stop the vampires. He would technically breathe his last, but since they will go to the dwarves (where Lurkon is) before fighting Xyon, Rich wouldn't be writing off a well-known main character before the series is finished. It seems the most likely to me. Sorry if this doesn't make the most sense, mobile on here is not good for me.

I don't think Rich would write off a main character before the series is finished, either, which is why I don't expect Belkar to die until the climax of the series.

Similarly, Rich has already vampirized one member of the Order; I don't see him repeating that as a storytelling device.

[Saint Jimmy]

Ah, I forgot about all that. I...now I dont really have any ideas. I guess that'll just make seeing what actally happens more surprising.

[Kish]

I don't think I follow. You forgot that the current antagonist who you thought would turn Belkar into a vampire is a separate entity from Durkon?

[Riftwolf]

I don't think I follow. You forgot that the current antagonist who you thought would turn Belkar into a vampire is a separate entity from Durkon?

Does that mean if Belkar is vamped, the prophecy will still be true because he's not the one doing the breathing? (I don't think Belkar will be vamped, I'm just being facetious)

[Kish]

The "not long for this world" clause would be unfulfilled as he would remain in the world, albeit as a prisoner in his own body. It'd fit if the vampire also took a one-way trip to another plane, though.

[Saint Jimmy]

I don't think I follow. You forgot that the current antagonist who you thought would turn Belkar into a vampire is a separate entity from Durkon?

Well, pretty much. In hindsight it seems really silly, but I tend to have trouble remembering important-ish details. Also I'm just mentally drained with trying to get everything done before finals week... Buit yeah you're right. I had rather substantial lapse in logic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Not quite true. There was also his answer "in his throne room" to Roy's first-ever question to him "Where is Xykon?", back when it was just him and Durkon.

Does anyone else see a critical distinction between "answer which the questioner could recognize as useless before the Oracle said the last word or two" and "answer which deliberately and successfully misleads the questioner"?

[Samzat]

Belkar won't become good. He might be holding on evil, but that "only" means maintaining 9000 kilo-nazis of evil. And he is hardly even *intending* to become even neutral (Mr. Scruffy might be the one intending that), he is merely faking it and many of is fans hope that he will "fake it until he makes it" (somehow in two weeks).

He's going to die. About the only reasonable non-death fate for him is to be trapped in the world inside the Snarl (although why would he stop breathing and live?). He could become undead, but considering ~Durkon* has already gone that route I don't expect Rich to repeat himself (although ~Durkon vamping him is certainly on the table).

* I've noted that the forums seem to know the name of the spirit possessing Durkon, but I seem to have missed that strip.

Belkar never got to 9 kilonazis, that was the projection for Belkar without Roy's intervention. With it, he capped out at 4 and is declining to lower than one by 1184. If he dies before the end of the year, he will still have one or less kilonazis, and thus is far closer to redemption than you guys think

Edit: its 1184 in OOTS-verse and therefore Belkar was at arond 0.1 kilonazis at the start of DSTP. Given his current path, he is surely redeemed to 0 or lower

[Peelee]

Belkar never got to 9 kilonazis, that was the projection for Belkar without Roy's intervention. With it, he capped out at 4 and is declining to lower than one by 1184. If he dies before the end of the year, he will still have one or less kilonazis, and thus is far closer to redemption than you guys think

Edit: its 1184 in OOTS-verse and therefore Belkar is at arond 0 or less kilonazis

The scale is still in units of kilonazis, so I don't think "closer than some claim" says much here. I'm closer to my hundredth birthday than my wife is, but we're still a helliva ways away from that.

Also, fewer, not less.

[littlebum2002]

Belkar never got to 9 kilonazis, that was the projection for Belkar without Roy's intervention. With it, he capped out at 4 and is declining to lower than one by 1184. If he dies before the end of the year, he will still have one or less kilonazis, and thus is far closer to redemption than you guys think

Edit: its 1184 in OOTS-verse and therefore Belkar was at arond 0.1 kilonazis at the start of DSTP. Given his current path, he is surely redeemed to 0 or lower

The scale is still in units of kilonazis, so I don't think "closer than some claim" says much here. I'm closer to my hundredth birthday than my wife is, but we're still a helliva ways away from that.

Also, fewer, not less.

Guys, Belkar is only as Evil as 1000 Nazis! He's surely going to a neutral afterlife!

[Ornithologist]

Guys, Belkar is only as Evil as 1000 Nazis! He's surely going to a neutral afterlife!

I appreciate this on many many levels. (On a sarcastic note, it depends on which 1000 Nazi's he is being compared to. Some of them were spies for the British, or helped Jews escape from the SS forces. He could end up being less evil than some actually not very evil people.) Back to the real point: chances are that a Kilonazis worth of evil is still very, very evil. He has quite a bit of effort to do to maybe get to almost CN.

I think he's hilarious, but the guy's gonna have to pay the piper.