The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign

[Keltest]

I'm saying that nobody has a claim based on intrinsic merit. You could arguably make a case for a divine mandate for the heirs of Talos, because of his apotheosis, because, again, Talos is real. Nobody else has any such claim, Ulfric included. I just think Ulfric's cause is just, the merit of his claim is no worse than Torygg's.

There is a rather significant gulf between a just cause, which Ulfric nominally has, and just actions, which Ulfric decidedly is not doing. The nords have every reason to be upset with the banning of Talos Worship, but when that translates into doing things like attempting a violent uprising, alienating your allies and slaughtering your own countrymen, then all the justice in the world wont save you from the fallout.

I guess you don't know how Sovngarde works. You don't go there for dying a coward's death, only dying bravely.

The metaphysics of death in Tamriel are largely unknown. Living a brave life seems to have as much to do with it as actually dying bravely. Otherwise a nord who, say, died of some wolf-inflicted disease a month later would be rather screwed, no?

If fighting the Thalmor is futile, then why are the Redguards succeeding in Hammerfell? Besides, with the Dragonborn at his side, there's no reason Ulfric send every last Thalmor in Skyrim to the afterlife.

One, Ulfric doesn't have the Dragonborn at his side for a good 90% of the war. Two, the redguards are succeeding in large part because the empire is feeding them supplies. Were they forced to rely entirely on the resources of their desert, they would be in much worse shape.

The Thalmor can't simultaneously be too stupid to understand demographics and too war-wise lose to you in battle. There's no question that they know that time is on the side of humans, so you can rest assured they're plotting their ultimate demise. Which is all the reason not to trust any truce you'd make with them. Ultimately, the "The Thalmor are too strong" line is just loser-talk. You can make war on your friends or you can make war on your enemies. Why is this a difficult decision?

This is an exceptionally ironic claim from someone who is supporting the guy who started a civil war and split the imperial legions. Ulfric is certainly not fighting the Thalmor in skyrim. If it sounds like loser talk to you, its probably because the empire was losing. Theyre negotiation from a position of weakness, and the only reason they can do even that much is because they sucker punched the Dominion enough that the politicians back home who aren't part of the death cult felt it.

[The_Jackal]

There is a rather significant gulf between a just cause, which Ulfric nominally has, and just actions, which Ulfric decidedly is not doing. The nords have every reason to be upset with the banning of Talos Worship, but when that translates into doing things like attempting a violent uprising, alienating your allies and slaughtering your own countrymen, then all the justice in the world wont save you from the fallout.

So your solution to being oppressed is to suck it up and ask nicely for the people oppressing you to stop? There's no reason that should pass in any medieval society, and less in Skyrim. Ulfric's actions were to challenge Torygg in a lawful duel, which he won. It was the Empire, who didn't like the results of the duel, and couldn't brave the policy consequences of Ulfric's victory, which reacted by branding him a traitor. If dueling for the leadership of Skyrim is illegal, then why did Torygg accept? Face it, the only reason Mede attainted Ulfric is because he's afraid of his empire crumbling away, as more and more provinces realize what a soft-sword chump he is.

The metaphysics of death in Tamriel are largely unknown. Living a brave life seems to have as much to do with it as actually dying bravely. Otherwise a nord who, say, died of some wolf-inflicted disease a month later would be rather screwed, no?

I'm sure that the Divines have sufficient wisdom to understand valor and its circumstances without resorting to such narrow, nitpicking interpretations of their will. More to the point, while dying of a malady contracted in battle might be ambiguous, forsaking your Gods out of fear isn't.

One, Ulfric doesn't have the Dragonborn at his side for a good 90% of the war. Two, the redguards are succeeding in large part because the empire is feeding them supplies. Were they forced to rely entirely on the resources of their desert, they would be in much worse shape.

So what's stopping Titus Mede II from doing the same for the Stormcloaks? Let Ulfric rule, wash their hands of Skyrim, claiming (not without truth) that they don't have the manpower to bring them to heel on behalf of the Thalmor, and then surreptitiously support their resistance?

This is an exceptionally ironic claim from someone who is supporting the guy who started a civil war and split the imperial legions. Ulfric is certainly not fighting the Thalmor in skyrim. If it sounds like loser talk to you, its probably because the empire was losing. Theyre negotiation from a position of weakness, and the only reason they can do even that much is because they sucker punched the Dominion enough that the politicians back home who aren't part of the death cult felt it.

You think if the Empire either a) stood up to the Thalmor or b) let him secede and fight them on his own that he wouldn't? That seems like a dumb play. If Ulfric is as self-serving as you seem to think, he'd be caught in an ideological trap, where he'd have to back up his talk with action. And after he wins, he says as much, "I'm not afraid of the remnants of the Legion, in time they'll all give up and go home. What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores. We must be prepared to face them."

If you want to judge the character of Ulfric, you need only look at how he faces Rikke, outside of Tullius' quarters in Castle Dour:

Ulfric: "Secure the door."
Galmar: "Already done."
Rikke: "Ulfric. Stop."
Ulfric: "Stop what? Taking Skyrim back from those who'd leave her to rot?"
Rikke. "You're wrong. Ulfric. We need the Empire. Without it Skyrim will assuredly fall to the Dominion."
Galmar: "You were there with us. You saw it. The day the Empire signed that damn treaty was the day the Empire died."
Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion."
Rikke: "You're a damn fool."
Galmar: "Stand aside woman. We've come for the General."
Rikke: "He has given up. But I have not."
Ulfric: "Rikke. Go. You're free to leave."
Rikke: "I'm also free to stay and fight for what I believe in."
Ulfric: "You're also free to die for it."
Rikke: "This is what you wanted? Shield brothers and sisters killing each other? Families torn apart? This is the Skyrim you want?!"
Galmar: "Damnit woman, stand aside."
Rikke: "That's not the Skyrim I want to live in."
Ulfric: "Rikke. You don't have to do this."
Rikke: "You've left me no choice... Talos preserve us."

[Anteros]

I'm saying that nobody has a claim based on intrinsic merit. You could arguably make a case for a divine mandate for the heirs of Talos, because of his apotheosis, because, again, Talos is real. Nobody else has any such claim, Ulfric included. I just think Ulfric's cause is just, the merit of his claim is no worse than Torygg's.

Fine, but only one of them is responsible for grabbing power and starting a bloody civil war.

I guess you don't know how Sovngarde works. You don't go there for dying a coward's death, only dying bravely.

Regrouping for the future isn't cowardly. Even if it was, there's nothing making it any better than any of the other afterlives that are known to exist.

If fighting the Thalmor is futile, then why are the Redguards succeeding in Hammerfell? Besides, with the Dragonborn at his side, there's no reason Ulfric send every last Thalmor in Skyrim to the afterlife.

That's a bit like asking why China had so much trouble with Japan in WWII but America didn't. They are completely different geographic locations with completely different military and economic strengths. The Thalmor have to cross an ocean or go through the Empire to attack Hammerfell. The Empire does not have that luxury. Hammerfell also has the benefit of the Empire propping their war efforts up economically, and the fact that the Thalmor and Empire have significantly weakened one another.

Sure, the Dragonborn throws everything out the window with their ability to single-handedly destroy armies. The Empire didn't have them when they sued for peace though, so it's largely irrelevant.

The Thalmor can't simultaneously be too stupid to understand demographics and too war-wise lose to you in battle. There's no question that they know that time is on the side of humans, so you can rest assured they're plotting their ultimate demise. Which is all the reason not to trust any truce you'd make with them. Ultimately, the "The Thalmor are too strong" line is just loser-talk. You can make war on your friends or you can make war on your enemies. Why is this a difficult decision?

Or you can make temporary peace and build strength for the future. The real loser-talk is assuming any tactical blunder that the enemy makes is part of their plan and not acting on it. It's not the Empire's fault that Ulfric is a moron who is explicitly playing right into the Thalmor's hands. Without Ulfric helping the Thalmor, the absolute worst case scenario for the Empire is that the war resumes. Which is no different than if they had no treaty at all. The only reason that there's any downside to the treaty at all is because Ulfric is an impatient ass who is willing to undermine all of humanity for the sake of grabbing power.

You think if the Empire either a) stood up to the Thalmor or b) let him secede and fight them on his own that he wouldn't? That seems like a dumb play. If Ulfric is as self-serving as you seem to think, he'd be caught in an ideological trap, where he'd have to back up his talk with action. And after he wins, he says as much, "I'm not afraid of the remnants of the Legion, in time they'll all give up and go home. What I fear, is that the Thalmor will see our victory here and turn greater attention to our shores. We must be prepared to face them."

Of course he wouldn't. He's a self serving liar. Why would you expect him to suddenly become selfless and help someone else? He preaches isolationism and Nord superiority to other races. He's not going to do anything against the Thalmor until they're at his doorstep, which won't be until the Empire and Hammerfell have both fallen.

Even if he wanted to help against the Thalmor (which he does not), what's he going to do? Muster his navy from his completely land-locked nation and sail across the ocean to attack them? March his armies across an entire hostile continent and then sail his non-existent navy across the ocean and attack them? If he had any intention of backing up the Empire against the Thalmor he wouldn't be rebelling in the first place. The Empire is certainly not going to be idiotic enough to trust him enough to march armies into their territories "to help". He'd grab power the second their guard was down. That's what he does.

[Mando Knight]

So what's stopping Titus Mede II from doing the same for the Stormcloaks? Let Ulfric rule, wash their hands of Skyrim, claiming (not without truth) that they don't have the manpower to bring them to heel on behalf of the Thalmor, and then surreptitiously support their resistance?

Because it weakens his position against the Thalmor, as well as the Legions he needs to fight them. He's not about to let Ulfric usurp the throne of one of the most important remaining provinces to his Empire without a fight any more than Ulfric is going to stand around and play the subterfuge game for the Empire's sake.

[Caelestion]

I didn't think that six years after the game was released that someone would pop up and try to argue that Ulfric is in the right, as if there was some sudden revelation that explains away everything in the game.

[tonberrian]

These arguments are why Skyrim keeps getting rereleased. If we want ES6 we need to stop arguing about Skyrim's civil war, no matter how tempting it is!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Wow this took off.

Why? Why should the stronger fighter hold back? What's so honorable about toying with your opponent? How does a duel to the death not qualify for 'true need'?

It didn't have to be a duel to the death, that's why it doesn't qualify. Ulfric could have talked it over. He could have made grand speeches on street corners, he could have quietly murdered Thalmor patrols in the wilderness. He even could have just built up more popular support before he called the High King out. He went for making a big statement instead. He even admits this to Galmar:

"Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls. Whoever we replace them with will need the support of our armies."

That's a remarkably self-serving bit of conjecture. Here's an idea: If you don't want your rule challenged, maybe do what's right without being told to.

That doesn't actually work. Witness: Uriel Septim VII and Mankar Camoran. Somebody will always get it into their head that you're doing a bad job and they could do it better, whether you're a king or street-sweeper. The big difference is that kings and other major authority figures have more ways of telling those somebodies to get lost, and tend to attract more dangerous somebodies in greater quantities.

I suspect the document in question is at least partially Forged. IE, we can't control or stop him, so we'll make it seem like he's doing our bidding so our superiors think we're geniuses and not incompetents.

This theory doesn't really work because the document in question is a dossier, not a report back to Summerset. So it has no reason to leave the Embassy. And the highest-ranked person there is Elenwen, who was personally involved in his interrogation, and who has no reason to lie to herself. There's also a bit of dialog between Elenwen and Ulfric that hints at their mutual history, so in order for that document to be a forgery she'd have to have gotten Ulfric to play along with it.

On top of that, the Empire is feeding them supplies through their interests still in the nation. Theyre pretending that the Hammerfell pirates are just stealing them, but theyre doing it on purpose.

Source. Please.

Except the only demand that matters to the final Thalmor plan, is the ending of Talos worship. Appeasement in this manner is no less a guarantee of annihilation than immediate surrender and the total genocide that would have followed. They're not after the simple removal of some faithful. They want the extinction of the races of man.

And how many of the nobles and politicians in Cyrodiil know this? Come to that, how many of the devout Talos worshipers know this? My understanding is that Tower theory and magical metaphysics are somewhat obscure even in Tamriel's scholarly circles; expecting the average citizen to know and understand that banning Talos worship today will get them unmade tomorrow is like expecting the average medieval farmer to know that nuclear waste is bad for them.

Even if he wanted to help against the Thalmor (which he does not), what's he going to do? Muster his navy from his completely land-locked nation and sail across the ocean to attack them?

Err, minor point: while it's arguable that Skyrim doesn't have much if any navy since we don't see any sign of one during the game, Skyrim is not land-locked; just off the top of my head Windhelm and Solitude both have ports.

These arguments are why Skyrim keeps getting rereleased. If we want ES6 we need to stop arguing about Skyrim's civil war, no matter how tempting it is!

Okay, topic change then. What is the next game going to do for a Mages Guild? The official one doesn't exist any more. If we end up in Hammerfell they could probably use the Blackcaster Mages Guild, but what if it ends up in Valenwood or Black Marsh? Are we going to get a showdown between the College of Whispers and the Synod?

[Triaxx]

Well, the Argonian's have their own assassin's, so maybe they have their own 'Nest of the Arcane' which could make Black Marsh interesting.

[Keltest]

Well, the Argonian's have their own assassin's, so maybe they have their own 'Nest of the Arcane' which could make Black Marsh interesting.

The wood elves and the argonians both have their own mage type organizations, but they are rather racial specific. An imperial couldn't become a spinner, for example.

It would have to be a new guild of some sort, or an older one not yet explored too much.

[The_Jackal]

I didn't think that six years after the game was released that someone would pop up and try to argue that Ulfric is in the right, as if there was some sudden revelation that explains away everything in the game.

Unfortunately, everything in the game includes plenty of evidence to support either opinion, and none of it is objective, as opposed to based on hearsay from biased witnesses. Personally, I didn't think that after six years there'd still be this many people so attached to the idea of an imaginary monarchy that they'd endorse systematic religious persecution. I guess we're both learning something new.

[Keltest]

Unfortunately, everything in the game includes plenty of evidence to support either opinion, and none of it is objective, as opposed to based on hearsay from biased witnesses. Personally, I didn't think that after six years there'd still be this many people so attached to the idea of an imaginary monarchy that they'd endorse systematic religious persecution. I guess we're both learning something new.

There was no systemic religious persecution. The empire paid lip service to the idea while basically telling Skyrim as long as they didn't shout it to the heavens, they would be left alone. Lo and behold, Ulfric decided that no, he had to shout it to the heavens darn it, and the Thalmor use that as proof that the Imperials were not holding up their end of the deal.

[Anteros]

Err, minor point: while it's arguable that Skyrim doesn't have much if any navy since we don't see any sign of one during the game, Skyrim is not land-locked; just off the top of my head Windhelm and Solitude both have ports.

You're right. I was looking at a version of the map that showed them being bordered on the north by mountains with no water. They'd still have to sail all the way around the continent through hazardous ice filled waters to get to the Thalmor. It's not a tactically viable option.

Unfortunately, everything in the game includes plenty of evidence to support either opinion, and none of it is objective, as opposed to based on hearsay from biased witnesses. Personally, I didn't think that after six years there'd still be this many people so attached to the idea of an imaginary monarchy that they'd endorse systematic religious persecution. I guess we're both learning something new.

You might have a point here if there were some kind of indication that Ulfric cared about relgious persecution more than as an excuse to grab power. Or if he weren't a complete idiot dooming all of mankind with his actions. He's painfully short sited. To make an analogy, if you're cold you don't burn down your shelter to get warm. That's what he's doing. Let's say he doesn't get lucky and the Dragonborn doesn't come along to save him...what's his long term plan? The Empire is going to be severely weakened by his rebellion and he is directly causing it to fall to the Thalmor. How well do you think Skyrim fares when they Thalmor are actually on his border with all the resources of the Empire at their disposal?

[Rynjin]

There was no systemic religious persecution. The empire paid lip service to the idea while basically telling Skyrim as long as they didn't shout it to the heavens, they would be left alone. Lo and behold, Ulfric decided that no, he had to shout it to the heavens darn it, and the Thalmor use that as proof that the Imperials were not holding up their end of the deal.

No, not even that. They have an entire religious order dedicated to shouting at the heavens and a bigass statue of Talos in the rich district of the city we are informed to be the largest trade hub in all of Skyrim and it wasn't an issue until Ulfric got a bee up his ass about being High King.

Okay, topic change then. What is the next game going to do for a Mages Guild? The official one doesn't exist any more. If we end up in Hammerfell they could probably use the Blackcaster Mages Guild, but what if it ends up in Valenwood or Black Marsh? Are we going to get a showdown between the College of Whispers and the Synod?

Assuming there needs to be one (I wouldn't mind skipping a Mage's Guild if necessary for lore reasons), it would be interesting to participate in the formation of a NEW guild. It would even give a justification for why you rise through the ranks so quickly. If you join the guild when it only has a dozen members, tops, and cause it to rise to prominence through your actions, it would make sense when you are near-unanimously voted to be their supreme leader.

[Caelestion]

Personally, I didn't think that after six years there'd still be this many people so attached to the idea of an imaginary monarchy that they'd endorse systematic religious persecution.

Don't you mean imaginary systematic religious persecution? That comment goes both ways.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

No, not even that. They have an entire religious order dedicated to shouting at the heavens and a bigass statue of Talos in the rich district of the city we are informed to be the largest trade hub in all of Skyrim and it wasn't an issue until Ulfric got a bee up his ass about being High King.

Actually do the Greybeards ever take a stance on Talos? Arngeir mostly talks about Kynareth. Heimskr preaching in the town square on the other hand...

Assuming there needs to be one (I wouldn't mind skipping a Mage's Guild if necessary for lore reasons), it would be interesting to participate in the formation of a NEW guild. It would even give a justification for why you rise through the ranks so quickly. If you join the guild when it only has a dozen members, tops, and cause it to rise to prominence through your actions, it would make sense when you are near-unanimously voted to be their supreme leader.

It doesn't need to be a Guild, as such, but each game usually has some sort of magical organization to join for people who like magic.

That said, founding a new guild would be fun. There could be a quest to find a spot to put the Guildhall, a quest to get it built/rebuilt/furnished, recruitment drives for radiant quests, quests to get prominent unaffiliated mages to join...

[Yuki Akuma]

Actually do the Greybeards ever take a stance on Talos? Arngeir mostly talks about Kynareth. Heimskr preaching in the town square on the other hand...

The Greybeards are a cult dedicated to Kynareth - I don't think they really care that much about Talos.

[Triaxx]

As far as I know, their only interaction is proclaiming Tiber Septim Dragonborn.

[Talion]

It doesn't need to be a Guild, as such, but each game usually has some sort of magical organization to join for people who like magic.

That said, founding a new guild would be fun. There could be a quest to find a spot to put the Guildhall, a quest to get it built/rebuilt/furnished, recruitment drives for radiant quests, quests to get prominent unaffiliated mages to join...

If it were to take place in Black Marsh I could see a 'rebuild the remnants of House Telvanni' story arch, as a counter to the local group. There's probably a couple of their former mage lords holding out somewhere. Divayth Fyr comes to mind (not that he gives a scrib jelly about politics) as the most obvious. Or perhaps new ones trying to rebuild from the ashes, in secret. On the other hand, rogue Telvanni make great quest fodder for just about any other organization, or even when just wandering about.

Picking one or the other (or a third option from an outside source) could be quite interesting.

[Rynjin]

Re: Greybeards I may have conflated mechanical stuff (Talos amulets being the ones that reduce Shout cooldowns) and lore.

[tonberrian]

Anyone interested in some ESO freestuff? I am getting Tamriel Unlimited, 750 crowns, and 15 days of ESO Plus in the humble monthly bundle. First come first serve, probably redeems as one item.

[Keltest]

I wouldn't say no to free stuff. ESO is pretty much the only elder scrolls game I play with any regularity now. Really burned out on Skyrim.

[tonberrian]

And sent. Also a vanity pet pig, too

[veti]

There was no systemic religious persecution. The empire paid lip service to the idea while basically telling Skyrim as long as they didn't shout it to the heavens, they would be left alone. Lo and behold, Ulfric decided that no, he had to shout it to the heavens darn it, and the Thalmor use that as proof that the Imperials were not holding up their end of the deal.

Once again you're rehashing purely one-sided imperial talking points. Please, please recognise that this is not "objective truth", this is quite explicitly the version of history that pro-imperial propagandists trot out.

One way and another, most people encounter more, and more sympathetic, pro-imperial sources than Stormcloak ones - largely, I suspect, because we spend so much time in Whiterun hold. That means the imperial narrative tends to become our "baseline". But it's still propaganda. I think it's really important not to forget that.

[Divayth Fyr]

But it's still propaganda. I think it's really important not to forget that.

I'm not sure Alvor is the type to deal in propaganda. And seeing how Heimskr still preaches despite the Thalmor being around and shrines of Talos still being found even in areas under full Imperial control, that story seems more plausible than not.

[Keltest]

I'm not sure Alvor is the type to deal in propaganda. And seeing how Heimskr still preaches despite the Thalmor being around and shrines of Talos still being found even in areas under full Imperial control, that story seems more plausible than not.

Indeed. And its not like there are a lot of stories of imperial soldiers barging into homes and smashing shrines or whatever.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not sure Alvor is the type to deal in propaganda. And seeing how Heimskr still preaches despite the Thalmor being around and shrines of Talos still being found even in areas under full Imperial control, that story seems more plausible than not.

Heimskr stands openly in front of a shrine of Talos in a major city that is still allied to the Empire, decrying that elves are horrible creatures who will take away your worship of Talos.

There's a temple of Talos in Markarth that doesn't have a priest, but does have at least a few offerings laid at the shrine.

BUT, consider this map

Spoiler: Big image

Show

While it doesn't make it true, the distribution of shrines is not equal... aside from the one in Markarth, Talos shrines are pretty rare in the Western, more Imperial-controlled, lands of Skyrim... closer to the Thalmor bases at the Embassy and Northwatch. So it might imply that there's been some destruction of sacred sites going on... or that Talos worship was more prevalent closer to his home in Windhelm.

[Keltest]

Heimskr stands openly in front of a shrine of Talos in a major city that is still allied to the Empire, decrying that elves are horrible creatures who will take away your worship of Talos.

There's a temple of Talos in Markarth that doesn't have a priest, but does have at least a few offerings laid at the shrine.

BUT, consider this map

Spoiler: Big image

Show

While it doesn't make it true, the distribution of shrines is not equal... aside from the one in Markarth, Talos shrines are pretty rare in the Western, more Imperial-controlled, lands of Skyrim... closer to the Thalmor bases at the Embassy and Northwatch. So it might imply that there's been some destruction of sacred sites going on... or that Talos worship was more prevalent closer to his home in Windhelm.

I think the Thalmor death squads that you can run into actively defacing the shrines do a little more than imply that theres some destruction going on.

[The_Jackal]

I'm not sure Alvor is the type to deal in propaganda. And seeing how Heimskr still preaches despite the Thalmor being around and shrines of Talos still being found even in areas under full Imperial control, that story seems more plausible than not.

Alvor, like most people, is susceptible to confirmation bias. Ralof and Alvor are quite literally put in the game to be advocates for their respective sides of the Civil War. Look, the RPG story fascists wanted a branching story, and this is what Bethesda produced: A story with no real consequences, no empirically provable 'correct side', and a bunch of evidence that was never vetted for continuity, or even making sense. Which is the real reason this argument is doomed to last forever.

Indeed. And its not like there are a lot of stories of imperial soldiers barging into homes and smashing shrines or whatever.

No, they're the corrupt cops to the Thalmor's mafia: Turning a blind eye while ruthlessly applying the 'rule of law' to anyone who resists or protests. Tell you what: If you can find a single Stormcloak patrol with a shackled imperial or imperial sympathizer in tow, then I might concede some kind of moral equivalence between Ulfric and Tullius. But to date, I've only ever seen Thalmor & Imperial patrols dragging people off in chains.

[Triaxx]

Have a look at the shrine just off the road from Helgen, where we find a dead Thalmor with a note, and a bunch of worshipper corpses.

Or the group that attacks when you deliver Torygg's warhorn to the shrine near Whiterun.

While we'll never agree on who's right, we can at least agree on who's evil.

[Keltest]

Alvor, like most people, is susceptible to confirmation bias. Ralof and Alvor are quite literally put in the game to be advocates for their respective sides of the Civil War. Look, the RPG story fascists wanted a branching story, and this is what Bethesda produced: A story with no real consequences, no empirically provable 'correct side', and a bunch of evidence that was never vetted for continuity, or even making sense. Which is the real reason this argument is doomed to last forever.

Insisting that our evidence "doesn't count" because it could be biased does not make for a particularly strong counterargument. This isn't even "what they say and what is shown don't match up", its just "well he's an imperial so it doesn't count."

No, they're the corrupt cops to the Thalmor's mafia: Turning a blind eye while ruthlessly applying the 'rule of law' to anyone who resists or protests. Tell you what: If you can find a single Stormcloak patrol with a shackled imperial or imperial sympathizer in tow, then I might concede some kind of moral equivalence between Ulfric and Tullius. But to date, I've only ever seen Thalmor & Imperial patrols dragging people off in chains.

Mostly the stormcloaks are just killing people who oppose them when I run into them and aren't actively supporting them. The first time you go into Windhelm you find two Stormcloak war veterans harassing a Dark Elf, not for being an Imperial, but for not being an overt stormcloak. If you want to talk about turning a blind eye, maybe look at how Ulfric is ruling his lands, letting bandits and thieves run rampant as long as they aren't bothering nords.