The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign

[Anteros]

I don't know what Brunwulf's motives are, and neither do you. Perhaps he's covering up his own dealings with the bandits, like Siddgeir but less honestly. How would we know? The bandits would be there just the same, and the quest would go the exact same way. Or perhaps he honestly, really does believe in what he's saying, but he's wrong; perhaps Ulfric has made repeated attempts to hunt down these bandits, but Brunwulf just doesn't know about it. We don't know. That's why it's rightly called "hearsay".

In any case, this mission cannot plausibly be called evidence of Brunwulf's honesty and integrity; it proves he is wealthy enough to pay an adventurer for this mission, and that is all it proves.

You can't possibly be equating completely made up scenarios with things that actually happen in the game and calling them equally likely.

Besides, we know a lot more than you're willing to admit here. We know not everyone is on board with the pretty picture Ulfric paints of himself, even within his own city. We know that Brunwulf is willing to act against the bandits when no one else in power there will. We know he lobbies for the Dark Elves' rights when Ulfric is in power. We know that Brunwulf is a fair Jarl who works against the Nord discrimination of other races if he takes power after Ulfric falls. We know he actively renovates the Gray Quarter and works against discrimination of the Argonians. We know all these things because they actually happen in the game and are not hypothetical scenarios that you just made up to support your point.

[Akisa]

Yeah, even as a firm Imperial supporter I can't see how anyone would want to pick the guy who almost executed you over the one being friendly in that particular scenario. I always pick Ralof too.

I may have some military bias but the way I see it. Hadvar had no choice and would face punishment for no results. Next Ralof does nothing to actually help you until you reach the keep. Not even in the apparent safety of the tower where you and him are in cover and Dragon is attacking somewhere else. He even tells you to jump to the next building and is unwilling to follow. No mention of trying to help the wounded in the tower, just go and jump and he'll follow as soon as he can. This leaves me to believe he has no care for the PC other than get him out of the way. Heck what was the point of running up the tower anyway? Other than to use as a scout to see where the dragon is or attack using a bow (which no one has)? Was he hoping that there was connections to ramparts up top or something?


Meanwhile Hadvar at least tries to keep you safe by trying to lead you to suitable cover. Hadvar has only two pauses in sprint for cover. The first is when he's trying to get a child to his father moments before a Dragon attempts to breath fire on the boy. Once Hadvar makes sure the boy is safe he has no moment to spare, because the four of you are not in cover should the dragon decides to circle around for a flank. Instead Hadvar tries to lead you to the only cover he knows can't be burnt down the keep.

The second pause was because there is a storm cloak he knows that is staring at him with a drawn weapon. There is no time in this situation to cut you free because he could be attacked at that moment. So a brief argument occurs before the both of them decide it's not a good idea to fight out in open while a Dragon is out there.

My other problem is that Ralof even manages to beat you to the keep. This means Ralof knew of an alternative way towards the keep entrance that ended up being faster. Why didn't Raloof offer to lead the PC towards this alternate path? Where is the rest of his stormcloak friends? While an answer is they went up ahead and he offered to stay behind In case the PC shows up; I'm not buying that because more than likely he would have been at the door way and call you over when he sees you.

In that split second decision I can easily see most people heading with Hadvar as Ralof seems like he's out for himself and even tried to get rid of you once.

[Anteros]

I don't buy that he's trying to get rid of you. What possible motive could he have to ditch a potential ally in that situation? Compared to someone who literally lined me up for execution less than 5 minutes ago, and could quite possibly be planning to send me right back to the headsman once we're clear? The choice is pretty obvious.

[Akisa]

I don't buy that he's trying to get rid of you. What possible motive could he have to ditch a potential ally in that situation? Compared to someone who literally lined me up for execution less than 5 minutes ago, and could quite possibly be planning to send me right back to the headsman once we're clear? The choice is pretty obvious.

Well possible motive is that he doesn't want you to see where or how Ulfric escape. Nor does he mentions where he went. My guess he may have been cut off but still has to keep secret.

[factotum]

I may have some military bias but the way I see it. Hadvar had no choice and would face punishment for no results.

It's also worth noting that Hadvar is the one who points out the discrepancy to the Captain ("This one's not on the list") and is then ordered to execute you anyway. While "I was only following orders" is somewhat shaky ground to stand on, it's difficult to see what else he could have done in this situation; if he'd actively refused to follow the order then there were plenty of other Imperial Legion guys around who would no doubt be more compliant.

Trouble is, Bethesda wanted to make it seem that the Imperial and Stormcloak approaches were both equally valid ways to go through the game, while allowing the player to do the usual "Fill in for yourself why you're a prisoner at the start of this game", and (unsurprisingly) they messed it up.

[veti]

You can't possibly be equating completely made up scenarios with things that actually happen in the game and calling them equally likely.

Correct, I'm not doing that.

I'm just pointing out that the set of "things that actually happen in the game" is a lot more limited than some people seem to be asserting it to be. And it tells us nothing whatever about the relative merits of Ulfric vs Brunwulf as a ruler of Eastmarch.

"Things that actually happen in the game" - Brunwulf pays us to kill some bandits. Well, guess what? Ulfric does that, too - just like every other jarl in the game, and some other people. Seriously, what am I "making up"?

[Keltest]

Correct, I'm not doing that.

I'm just pointing out that the set of "things that actually happen in the game" is a lot more limited than some people seem to be asserting it to be. And it tells us nothing whatever about the relative merits of Ulfric vs Brunwulf as a ruler of Eastmarch.

"Things that actually happen in the game" - Brunwulf pays us to kill some bandits. Well, guess what? Ulfric does that, too - just like every other jarl in the game, and some other people. Seriously, what am I "making up"?

There is sufficient corroborating evidence (like from the dark elves, who also claim Ulfric is racist towards them) and the Nords (who are openly racist towards the dark elves) to support Brunwulf's claims. Dismissing it as hearsay just because the bandits don't wear a giant "Ulfric is ignoring us, lets party on the graves of elves" banner in their camp is extremely intellectually dishonest.

[LibraryOgre]

Almost regardless of which side I pick in the civil war (if I do it at all, which is rare), I usually pick Ralof because he's just more friendly and I prefer his family to Hadvar's.

I always pick the Imperial side, because being friends with the blacksmith is better in the short term (which is where it matters).

[Keltest]

I always pick the Imperial side, because being friends with the blacksmith is better in the short term (which is where it matters).

Free ingots!

[LibraryOgre]

Free ingots!

Yep. As the game goes on, you can swipe more and more gear from him, sell it back to him, and keep going.

Wood only costs time to acquire. Ingots are money and XP.

[veti]

There is sufficient corroborating evidence (like from the dark elves, who also claim Ulfric is racist towards them) and the Nords (who are openly racist towards the dark elves) to support Brunwulf's claims. Dismissing it as hearsay just because the bandits don't wear a giant "Ulfric is ignoring us, lets party on the graves of elves" banner in their camp is extremely intellectually dishonest.

The notion that Ulfric is ignoring those bandits is hearsay; the notion that he's doing so because they've been harassing elven refugees, doubly so. And the assumption that Brunwulf wants them wiped out purely out of his own personal sense of justice? - that's a whole other assumption on top of the two layers of hearsay. None of these things are "shown in the game", and it's extremely intellectually dishonest to pretend that they are.

Sure, the Nords of Windhelm are racist. Exhibit A: harassment of Suvaris Atherton when you first enter the city, accused of being a spy. (Though to be fair, she is later revealed to be a spy, so let's not get too indignant for her. And no-one actually lays a finger on her - which puts her, so to speak, head and shoulders above the victim in the scene you see on first entering Solitude.) The Dunmer live in the Gray Quarter. On the other hand, they're not confined to it: they can and do go wherever, whenever they like. There's a Dunmer bard in the inn, a Dunmer merchant in the marketplace, a Dunmer farmer outside the gate, none of whom show any sign of being particularly put upon. At least a couple of elves in the city (Belyn Hlaalu and Niranye) will tell you that all their talk of persecution is overblown.

And the Dunmer themselves are no saints. Quite apart from Ms Atherton's activities, talk to Ambarys Rendar sometime: "It's not the cold of Skyrim that gets to me. It's the stink from the people." Of the Butcher, he says: "None of that matters to me. Until someone takes a Dunmer, I let Windhelm deal with its own problems." Which does lend credence to Rolff's complaint that the Dunmer don't exactly throw themselves into civic life.

But to the extent that the Dunmer are oppressed, do things improve when Brunwulf becomes jarl? The Dunmer carry on living in their "slum", Elda is still just as snooty when you enter the inn (if you happen to be a Dunmer). Does Rolff continue to patrol the Gray Quarter at nights? I don't know, never bothered to find out.

[The_Jackal]

Free ingots!

If you boost them, they're free anyway, and you can sell back what you craft with them just the same.

[Akisa]

If you boost them, they're free anyway, and you can sell back what you craft with them just the same.

But Khajit is no thief, Khajit is innocent of this crime!

[lunaticfringe]

But Khajit is no thief, Khajit is innocent of this crime!

This Khajit is always Thief first, Khajit takes all of worth.

[Temotei]

I always pick the Imperial side, because being friends with the blacksmith is better in the short term (which is where it matters).

I mean, I suppose if you're having trouble finding iron of all things, sure, but it's not like it's a rare resource. Nor is gold, and iron ore/ingots are cheap enough that even at early levels you can easily buy some without hurting your income too much.

[LibraryOgre]

I mean, I suppose if you're having trouble finding iron of all things, sure, but it's not like it's a rare resource. Nor is gold, and iron ore/ingots are cheap enough that even at early levels you can easily buy some without hurting your income too much.

I work like a fiend the first few days so I can buy and furnish Breezehome, because I can't stand leaving Lucia homeless.

[Talion]

This Khajit is always Thief first, Khajit takes all of worth.

Khajit is innocent of all wrong doing. Khajit has friends who make sure of this. Remove bounties, wipe record clean, as if nothing ever happened, and all for a small favor. Khajit certainly did not murder 4 people in broad daylight and go on unrelated crime sprees due to these factors.

[Keltest]

The notion that Ulfric is ignoring those bandits is hearsay; the notion that he's doing so because they've been harassing elven refugees, doubly so. And the assumption that Brunwulf wants them wiped out purely out of his own personal sense of justice? - that's a whole other assumption on top of the two layers of hearsay. None of these things are "shown in the game", and it's extremely intellectually dishonest to pretend that they are.

Sure, the Nords of Windhelm are racist. Exhibit A: harassment of Suvaris Atherton when you first enter the city, accused of being a spy. (Though to be fair, she is later revealed to be a spy, so let's not get too indignant for her. And no-one actually lays a finger on her - which puts her, so to speak, head and shoulders above the victim in the scene you see on first entering Solitude.) The Dunmer live in the Gray Quarter. On the other hand, they're not confined to it: they can and do go wherever, whenever they like. There's a Dunmer bard in the inn, a Dunmer merchant in the marketplace, a Dunmer farmer outside the gate, none of whom show any sign of being particularly put upon. At least a couple of elves in the city (Belyn Hlaalu and Niranye) will tell you that all their talk of persecution is overblown.

And the Dunmer themselves are no saints. Quite apart from Ms Atherton's activities, talk to Ambarys Rendar sometime: "It's not the cold of Skyrim that gets to me. It's the stink from the people." Of the Butcher, he says: "None of that matters to me. Until someone takes a Dunmer, I let Windhelm deal with its own problems." Which does lend credence to Rolff's complaint that the Dunmer don't exactly throw themselves into civic life.

But to the extent that the Dunmer are oppressed, do things improve when Brunwulf becomes jarl? The Dunmer carry on living in their "slum", Elda is still just as snooty when you enter the inn (if you happen to be a Dunmer). Does Rolff continue to patrol the Gray Quarter at nights? I don't know, never bothered to find out.

Sigh. If youre just going to dismiss everything every character says as "hearsay" and unimportant, there is no standard of evidence that will convince you, and I see no reason to continue treating this as a serious discussion. You are very clearly not interested in developing an honest picture of the situation in Windhelm or Skyrim.

[Temotei]

I work like a fiend the first few days so I can buy and furnish Breezehome, because I can't stand leaving Lucia homeless.

That is fair. Homesteading takes a lot of iron and those chitlins need somewhere to go.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

At least a couple of elves in the city (Belyn Hlaalu and Niranye) will tell you that all their talk of persecution is overblown.

That's incorrect on both counts.

"Too many dark elves in Windhelm complain about the way we're treated. What good does complaining do?"

That is not a claim that the talk of persecution is overblown, that is a claim that complaining about being persecuted is useless. If I am in a thunderstorm with a group of other people and we're all soaking wet, but they're complaining about being wet and I complain that they're complaining, that doesn't make them dry. This, combined with one of his other comments:

"The best way for us to win the Nords' respect is through hard work."

He's stating that the other Dunmer are going about improving their conditions the wrong way, not saying their conditions aren't that bad.

"It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

She isn't claiming the Dunmer aren't being persecuted nor does she claim they're exaggerating their state of persecution; she agrees they live in a slum, and admits she'd had difficulties herself originally. Like Belyn and his comment about 'hard work', she implies they're dealing with that persecution the wrong way, but that is not the same thing as claiming they are not being persecuted.

And it tells us nothing whatever about the relative merits of Ulfric vs Brunwulf as a ruler of Eastmarch.

Brunwulf didn't kill any kings and by extension, didn't start a civil war, so he's got that going for him.

Almost regardless of which side I pick in the civil war (if I do it at all, which is rare), I usually pick Ralof because he's just more friendly and I prefer his family to Hadvar's.

On my very first playthrough I followed Hadvar because Hadvar's armor was shinier and easier to see and thus I hadn't really noticed Ralof was an option.

On my second I followed Ralof and the jerk bailed on me halfway to Riverwood while I was being shot at by Imperial soldiers. Between that and the scene on entering Windhelm (I was playing a Dunmer that time)...needless to say I didn't join the Stormcloaks that playthrough.

Yeah, even as a firm Imperial supporter I can't see how anyone would want to pick the guy who almost executed you over the one being friendly in that particular scenario.

For myself, I can, and do resent the Imperial Legion for trying to execute me without trial. But I fell into that ambush alongside known Stormcloaks. I was dressed in prison rags; the only other guy in the cart dressed that way is a known horse thief, so even if I'm not a Stormcloak I know I look like I'm some kind of criminal. And I have zero legitimate explanation for being where I was. There comes a point where in order for them to know I'm innocent they more or less have to be omniscient...which they're not, and I try not to blame people for not acting on information they don't have.

Hadvar tries to help me escape in spite of the fact that I've been condemned to die. And tries to reason with the Stormcloaks you run across, rather than immediately kill them...yeah I prefer Hadvar to Ralof.

I do blame both those boys for dragging their feet getting back to their respective CO's though. Really guys, I was digging through tombs for months before I came to enlist, you couldn't have reported in and put me in your boss' good graces before I showed up?

[The_Jackal]

Sigh. If youre just going to dismiss everything every character says as "hearsay" and unimportant, there is no standard of evidence that will convince you, and I see no reason to continue treating this as a serious discussion. You are very clearly not interested in developing an honest picture of the situation in Windhelm or Skyrim.

LOL. Get over it. You're not changing your mind, or ours, so just stop trying to rebut this guy with this guy. The honest picture of the situation in Windhelm is that it's not profoundly different from any of the other holds. Ulfric is the Jarl, he doesn't have a mind-control device, so he can't be expected to make his subjects more or less virtuous than they are. The fact that Rolff Stone-Fist is a bigot doesn't have any bearing at all on the merits, or lack thereof, of the Stormcloak cause, just like the fact that Erikur is a rapist doesn't have any bearing on the legitimacy, or lack thereof, of Imperial rule.

The condition, social standing, and welfare of the Dunmer, Khajiit, and Argonians doesn't change, regardless of who wins the civil war, so you can climb off your high horse, and provide one straight answer to this question:

When the bad guys are coming for you and yours, where do you want your government's boot? In your enemies' kiester, or on your throat?

[Keltest]

When the bad guys are coming for you and yours, where do you want your government's boot? In your enemies' kiester, or on your throat?

Yeah, no. You can keep making false claims about the brutality of the empire until youre blue in the face, but it just isn't going to cut it.

[Triaxx]

The issue isn't the iron ingots, but the Steel. Corundum isn't in great supply early on in Skyrim, and those free steel ingots are enough to give you a leg up on the competition.

[Honest Tiefling]

I work like a fiend the first few days so I can buy and furnish Breezehome, because I can't stand leaving Lucia homeless.

...In my last game, I might have researched the wiki for the most desperate orphans to adopt and tried to compare which ones were the most needy. It's probably a good thing I'm not a parent in real life. I mean, I can't be the only one annoyed I can't raise my daughter as a proper Nord and give her a knife.

Also, as for the elves being honest about persecution, both Ninanye and Belyn have reasons not to be honest.

Nianye is a smuggler, with ties to criminal organizations and will act as a fence. She might not be an upstanding honest person. Belyn is another business person also disinclined to speak ill of those who help his farm. They both might not be willing to insult the current Jarl in front of a person in armor, but that's just speculation.

[veti]

I mean, I can't be the only one annoyed I can't raise my daughter as a proper Nord and give her a knife.

You can totally give your daughter a knife. My Sofie was running about with a glass dagger, the last time I saw her.

Mind you, she seems to prefer that creepy doll. I suspect she might be some kind of... magic-user.

[Akisa]

You can totally give your daughter a knife. My Sofie was running about with a glass dagger, the last time I saw her.

Mind you, she seems to prefer that creepy doll. I suspect she might be some kind of... magic-user.

Leave out a milk and bow see which one she goes for first.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Leave out a milk and bow see which one she goes for first.

Since we're talking about children in Skyrim here, I need to ask you to clarify: "bow" as in "ribbon tied in a fancy knot" or "bow" as in "thing you use to shoot deer"?

That said, there's nothing wrong with a child being able to conjure their own nightlight, or knowing how to heal their own scrapped knees. I would recommend no fire spells until they're older though. Too many of those houses are made of wood.

[Triaxx]

Shock spells of course are perfectly acceptable though. And Conjuration means she'll always have friends to play with. :D

[Akisa]

Since we're talking about children in Skyrim here, I need to ask you to clarify: "bow" as in "ribbon tied in a fancy knot" or "bow" as in "thing you use to shoot deer"?

That said, there's nothing wrong with a child being able to conjure their own nightlight, or knowing how to heal their own scrapped knees. I would recommend no fire spells until they're older though. Too many of those houses are made of wood.

A bow to shoot your enemies with. If she doesn't use a weapon than how is she going to go to sovngarde later in life?

[Triaxx]

Without issue according to Tsun.