WANTED: Vigilante Justice

[Logic]

If I had scried a wolf I would have lead with that. You're badly missing the point that I've claimed Sheriff and nobody else has. If I'm not the Sheriff, someone else should be countering my claim. Given that nobody is and you're continuing to try and lynch me, it just shows that you don't actually care if you lynch the seer.
Your logic doesn't work. I'm not claiming against Logic. They aren't claiming Sheriff. I'm the only person claiming Sheriff. Given that nobody else is doing so, you're just giving the wolves a free lynch (of the seer no less) without any kind of contest. This is very bad town play.

Actually, what you're doing is a very good wolf play, which is just short of demanding that the sheriff counter claim you.

I've already claimed to be the proxy for the seer. They are keeping mum for a reason.

And if you had a network that actually trusted you, then you'd likely have more support votes on me.

[Silent_Interim]

Hey, so, uh. I'm going to be absent from the forums until further notice.

The reason for this is that my laptop's power cable is busted, and I do not know when I'm going to be able to get a replacement. I'm working on a solution, but I'm also in the middle of a really big move, and I don't know when I'll be able to do it. I'm also having minor financial troubles, having recently set up a bank account for the country that I'm moving into and still having to present proof of address, which is quite difficult when I don't actually live anywhere. I have some money, and friends who can spot me in the meantime, but that's a thing that's happening, and frankly, this takes lower priority than that does. I'll do what I can from my phone and borrowed devices, but neither of those is consistent enough for me to make promises.

Thanks for understanding. If you could look for a replacement for me, Duneyrr, that would be great.

[Thematthew]

Ramsus looks like the better choice here. It just a bit to weird that the wolves would trade one of their own for the seer rather than just night kill him.

[Tom the Mime]

A silent man walks into town to see the sheriff whispering another newcomers ear, before seeing one of them wander off into the bar. Hearing raised voices, he walks in and sees a mighty few guns pointed at Ramsus.

@Logic: risky strategy going off wagon, even if it looks overwhelming. We need to keep at least 4 votes on a suspect even if decided given we haven't hit any bandits yet so there's likely 3 or 4 who could swing the vote if we're careless and they might need just the one mislynch at this stage. Given we need the margin in case wolves would be in that 4, it doesn't seem worth it. Sure they'd out themselves by swinging the lynch but we're rapidly approaching the point where they'd only need to do it once to win.

[Fin]

I do see one possible reason against a counter-claim (if Ramsus is not the Seer); if the actual Seer claims then the wolves now have a target for their night kill. By keeping quiet they are keeping the wolves guessing.

Emphasis mine.

This is absolutely why we don't need the seer to counterclaim. The claim from Logic is enough until we have proof through the Ramsus lynch.

In fact Ramsus was doing a good job of convincing me he was a victimised seer until they started pushing this strategy as it only helps the wolves long term

Tl:dr: Seer, do not reveal yourself

[Ramsus]

A member of my network just pointed out to me that if there are four wolves left, then we're at lynch or lose right now. That would greatly explain Logic/Logic's false seer's claim. They might not even have known I was the Sheriff. They just needed someone who wasn't a wolf for sure to die today.
I think I've made plenty arguments about why this lynch is terrible and I've never seen another game where anyone thinks it's a good idea to lynch an uncounterclaimed seer. Doing so at lynch or lose is pretty crazy.
At least when we lose I'll have the pleasure of being able to say I told you all so.

[Duneyrr]

Hey, so, uh. I'm going to be absent from the forums until further notice.

The reason for this is that my laptop's power cable is busted, and I do not know when I'm going to be able to get a replacement. I'm working on a solution, but I'm also in the middle of a really big move, and I don't know when I'll be able to do it. I'm also having minor financial troubles, having recently set up a bank account for the country that I'm moving into and still having to present proof of address, which is quite difficult when I don't actually live anywhere. I have some money, and friends who can spot me in the meantime, but that's a thing that's happening, and frankly, this takes lower priority than that does. I'll do what I can from my phone and borrowed devices, but neither of those is consistent enough for me to make promises.

Thanks for understanding. If you could look for a replacement for me, Duneyrr, that would be great.

No problem! Hope to see you back soon!

[Logic]

A member of my network just pointed out to me that if there are four wolves left, then we're at lynch or lose right now. That would greatly explain Logic/Logic's false seer's claim. They might not even have known I was the Sheriff. They just needed someone who wasn't a wolf for sure to die today.
I think I've made plenty arguments about why this lynch is terrible and I've never seen another game where anyone thinks it's a good idea to lynch an uncounterclaimed seer. Doing so at lynch or lose is pretty crazy.
At least when we lose I'll have the pleasure of being able to say I told you all so.

And what makes you so certain there are 4 wolves?
You have made one assumption, and then run with it as if it was fact. Unless you want to admit you actually know how many wolves there are because you are one.

[Ramsus]

That kind of argument is incredibly wolfish. I already included "if this is the case" in my statement. Blatantly trying manipulate what I said on top of claiming we don't need a counterclaim to lynch me? Why does anyone need any more proof than that that you're a wolf?

[Fin]

We don't need a counter claim. Logic knows who it is so if they are wrong we will lynch them.

If they are right and we out them we kill our seer. A counter claim wouldn't gain us anything because it would go like this.

Fin: I'm the seer
Ramsus: no you aren't, I am.
Fin: But I at least have a way to prove it by lynching you, what do you have
Ramsus: *doesnt reply because he would get lynch in this scenario 99 times out of 100 and we have now lost the secrecy of the seer identity*

[Ramsus]

You've completely ignored that if I'm correct, you don't get to lynch Logic or their "seer" because this is quite likely lynch or lose. You lynch me. The wolves kill someone in the night. Wolves win. The end. There is no next day.
Even if there are only three wolves, if Logic is one of them all he needs to do to have tomorrow be lynch or lose is claim some random non-wolf non-Bartender person was their "seer". And then following the behavior you've been going by so far, you'd just lynch that person and lose the game tomorrow instead of listening to sense then either.

Also what. Your scenario is absurd since it claims that I don't have the exact same method of proof that the other person does. If either one of us is lynched, the other person is the opposite side of the one who got lynched. And therefore we would KNOW who the wolf was.
But you've bound yourself headlong into this absurd situation where when I die and am revealed to be the seer, we don't know if Logic was actually a wolf or the dupe of a wolf. And we NEED to know that tomorrow if there are three wolves in order not to lose.
And there's no way there aren't at least three wolves.
And as mentioned before, if there are four wolves, lynching me means that we lose the moment I'm lynched unless the Bartender is incredibly lucky (and they won't be because Logic/person Logic claims is the false seer won't be the head wolf and so they'll just be guessing blindly).

So yeah. We're going to lose if you lynch me the way the situation is right now. And it's just sad. Because in every other game ever, people have known better than to lynch a seer when there isn't a counterclaim against them. For these exact reasons.

Edit: In summary: If you lynch me, we're likely losing immediately. If you lynch me without there being a counterclaim of Sheriff we have lost regardless as it will be a non-issue for the wolves to manipulate the result so that we don't lynch a wolf.

[AvatarVecna]

You've completely ignored that if I'm correct, you don't get to lynch Logic or their "seer" because this is quite likely lynch or lose. You lynch me. The wolves kill someone in the night. Wolves win. The end. There is no next day.
Even if there are only three wolves, if Logic is one of them all he needs to do to have tomorrow be lynch or lose is claim some random non-wolf non-Bartender person was their "seer". And then following the behavior you've been going by so far, you'd just lynch that person and lose the game tomorrow instead of listening to sense then either.

Also what. Your scenario is absurd since it claims that I don't have the exact same method of proof that the other person does. If either one of us is lynched, the other person is the opposite side of the one who got lynched. And therefore we would KNOW who the wolf was.
But you've bound yourself headlong into this absurd situation where when I die and am revealed to be the seer, we don't know if Logic was actually a wolf or the dupe of a wolf. And we NEED to know that tomorrow if there are three wolves in order not to lose.
And there's no way there aren't at least three wolves.
And as mentioned before, if there are four wolves, lynching me means that we lose the moment I'm lynched unless the Bartender is incredibly lucky (and they won't be because Logic/person Logic claims is the false seer won't be the head wolf and so they'll just be guessing blindly).

So yeah. We're going to lose if you lynch me the way the situation is right now. And it's just sad. Because in every other game ever, people have known better than to lynch a seer when there isn't a counterclaim against them. For these exact reasons.

Edit: In summary: If you lynch me, we're likely losing immediately. If you lynch me without there being a counterclaim of Sheriff we have lost regardless as it will be a non-issue for the wolves to manipulate the result so that we don't lynch a wolf.

Ramsus, I already told you in private that nobody has publicly counterclaimed, and I also told you that the same person who contacted Logic has also contacted me. I've already promised you that, if you flip Sheriff, I'll immediately go public with the name of the supposed seer. I don't know why you're pretending that a 1 in 4 ratio of wolves to total players is what you expect when in Worm WW you told me you expected 1 in 5, I don't know why you never replied to my promising, and I don't know why you're still pretending publicly that there's no counterclaim when I have outright told you that a counterclaim exists and that this lynch is testing it.

While I'm thinking on it, everybody can go ahead and have a link to the QT where this discussion took place.

EDIT: And since this was a problem the last time I linked a player-to-player QT publicly...

Spoiler: Have Some Pictures

Show

First
Second
Third
Fourth
Fifth
Sixth

Just in case.

[Ramsus]

Right. Because I should just take a random person's word for it they're not a wolf? What? No. That doesn't help in any way.

What I expect to be the case of wolf/town ratios isn't always what is the case. If you really believed this was the right move I don't think you'd be so weird (and frankly creepy) about making pictures out of a QT that we both shared where neither of us had claimed anything to each other. That QT nor your (creeeeeeeeepy) pictures don't proove the logic of this behavior is good or if I should trust you or not. In fact, it makes me REALLY not trust you. That behavior is really really.... just not good. I don't see town behaving that way.

Though either way. UUUGH. Please never do things like that again unless you're actually dealing with someone deleting messages from a QT or something. Just... like. That behavior. Don't do it. It makes me really not comfortable. In an irl game of WW that'd be like you secretly recording people whispering and then playing the recordings as proof. When what people said doesn't actually offer solid proof of anything except for extremely creepy behavior. Just... please don't do that again?

[AvatarVecna]

Right. Because I should just take a random person's word for it they're not a wolf?

Why not? You expect us to do it.

Seriously, calm down dude. They're just pictures. Last time I publicly linked a QT because I suspected it could contain worthwhile information for the lynch at hand, the person went back through and deleted all their posts in there. It's just a precaution against deceptive people.

[Ramsus]

No, I don't. I claimed in public. I am not hiding my claim behind other people so I or them can confuse who should be lynched if I've lied. It's absurd to even claim these behaviors are similar.

And no, I think I'll not "calm down" about such creepy behavior. You took a roleplaying QT and twisted it into what comes closest to an invasion of privacy as you can get in these games. I was enjoying this game, largely in part because it was one of the first games I've been in for a while where I haven't had a single negative experience. (I don't mean negative as in I haven't suffered any in-game drawbacks. I mean I haven't suffered any hostility or such that nobody should be having to deal with in these games.) And you've completely ruined that. And why? So you can claim words I wasn't going to delete and had absolutely no reason to delete even as a wolf are some kind of proof of something? And do it in such a creepy manner because someone else once deleted stuff from a QT? That's no excuse. It makes me super uncomfortable. I don't want to play in a community where people are taking pictures on the assumption I'm going to delete posts from a roleplaying focused QT and using them for whatever reason before I actually have deleted anything or made some kind of threat to do so. So no. Uuuuuuuugh. Creepy. Not "calming down" on that. It's not ok behavior. Please stop doing that or I'm never going to share a QT with you that isn't narrator given again. Because just.... yuck.
Seriously, I've had to put up with a lot of negative experiences on this forum. But this is the first time I've felt creeped out. Maybe instead of deciding you don't care and I'm the one being unreasonable here you might actually take a moment and consider that someone told you that something you did (that you in no way had to do for any reason) makes them uncomfortable and you shouldn't do that because maybe you want to be a decent person who actually wants to play a game with people who are able to enjoy playing with you?

[Duneyrr]

Right. I'm ending the day phase now.

Day 4 has ended. Night 4 will begin shortly

[AvatarVecna]

No, I don't. I claimed in public. I am not hiding my claim behind other people so I or them can confuse who should be lynched if I've lied. It's absurd to even claim these behaviors are similar.

And no, I think I'll not "calm down" about such creepy behavior. You took a roleplaying QT and twisted it into what comes closest to an invasion of privacy as you can get in these games. I was enjoying this game, largely in part because it was one of the first games I've been in for a while where I haven't had a single negative experience. (I don't mean negative as in I haven't suffered any in-game drawbacks. I mean I haven't suffered any hostility or such that nobody should be having to deal with in these games.) And you've completely ruined that. And why? So you can claim words I wasn't going to delete and had absolutely no reason to delete even as a wolf are some kind of proof of something? And do it in such a creepy manner because someone else once deleted stuff from a QT? That's no excuse. It makes me super uncomfortable. I don't want to play in a community where people are taking pictures on the assumption I'm going to delete posts from a roleplaying focused QT and using them for whatever reason before I actually have deleted anything or made some kind of threat to do so. So no. Uuuuuuuugh. Creepy. Not "calming down" on that. It's not ok behavior. Please stop doing that or I'm never going to share a QT with you that isn't narrator given again. Because just.... yuck.
Seriously, I've had to put up with a lot of negative experiences on this forum. But this is the first time I've felt creeped out. Maybe instead of deciding you don't care and I'm the one being unreasonable here you might actually take a moment and consider that someone told you that something you did (that you in no way had to do for any reason) makes them uncomfortable and you shouldn't do that because maybe you want to be a decent person who actually wants to play a game with people who are able to enjoy playing with you?

I'd give my behavior a lot more consideration as creepy if the pictures had existed prior to the post I made that includes their linking. Taking pictures every time there's a new post in the QT on the offchance that it might one day be deleted and turn out to be of some use in the game would be super-creepy and completely unwarranted at least 95% of the time because of the likelihood of being in a private conversation with someone and being absolutely sure that they're a wolf before sharing it publicly. The last time I posted a QT publicly without asking the other people in the chat for permission was when the chat was started with the specific intention of potentially getting them to spill information, and after it went public they deleted every single one of their posts in the chat. In the present and future, when I come to a decision that sharing a private conversation I had with somebody is worth posting publicly for people to analyze what they said for the purpose of potentially hunting down wolves, I'm not going to give any opportunity to do something like that.

As far as your "claim" goes, you have nothing going for you. It has been pointed out a couple times that you have nobody corroborating your story, but let me restate a bit from the QT that's worth putting in simpler terms:

On one side of this, we have Logic and their seer contact. I have already informed you that I'm aware of the seer contact in question, and confirmed privately with Logic they were contacted by the same person. As far as I'm concerned, that's three people corroborating this story, which requires that both of the other people in it with me are lying.

On the other side of this, we have you. You have offered no proof one way or the other on your role besides mindlessly repeating that you're the seer over and over, and you have nobody corroborating your side. Alright, let's give you a modicum of doubt and say that you're maybe the seer. You've had three scries, you made this post a half hour before you're going to die, and you're still not sharing them? Did you get no wolves? You're ten minutes from dying, do you have no names whatsoever of untrustworthy people to give town, especially when - again, in about ten minutes - your trustworthiness will be verified by the narrator? Are you just sabotaging town out of spite, or do you legitimately have no wolf scries? Okay, okay, maybe you didn't get any wolves. Did you get any villagers? Not from the votes I'm seeing. With how convinced you seem that a mislynch today loses things for town, your purported scry-confirmed villager network is flying under the table to avoid...what, getting spotted? If you're right, losing this lynch means the game is over, shouldn't you be pushing your network to prevent a mislynch? Sure, you and they might not know who the real villain to lynch today is, but the lot of you would have to know that Ramsus isn't the person to lynch today, and your votes would reflect that.

Alright, so your actions so far make no sense if you've had literally any wolf scries, and the actions of your and whoever's in your network make no sense if you've had any villager scries, so really you're a seer who has had three scries that failed to find anybody. Either you're being exclusively targeted by the Bartender, you haven't even attempted to scry anybody and you're useless as a seer anyway, or you're a wolf fake-claiming seer in a panic, and you're getting upset because town was actually coordinating this and you were expecting your panic!claim to get you off the hook and all it did was make you look even worse.

Between "Ramsus is being personally and solely targeted by the Bartender", "Ramsus is a very incompetent seer", and "Ramsus is a wolf", I know which possibility I'm placing my money on.

[Duneyrr]

I think you got ninja'd by the End of Day message.

Let's put this particular discussion down, as we can assume that Ramsus will have been lynched.

I'll publicly state here that I have no real power over what can and can't be posted here and I feel it would be a disservice to all players if I allowed any of my own personal feelings about events to influence any posts I make in this thread.

However, I am a bit upset about the level to which the metagame was taken. While Mafia is a game based around lies and manipulation of information, I hope we can all remind ourselves that this is a game played by real people and is supposed to be a fun experience - even if not a completely relaxing one.

I really appreciate all of you for making this game what it has been so far. It has had a lot of fun RP and interesting speculation, and I hope that it will continue.

- - - Updated - - -

The ruckus among the townfolk down at the saloon had pulled many townsfolk out of their homes. Dusty, downtrodden faces looked toward the Sheriff, surrounded by the armed men and women of Worston, kneeling beside the body of a man in the dust. With look of concentration on their face and a wanted poster in hand, the Sheriff carefully checked the features of the dead man against the photo on the poster.

"Yep. That's Jeb, alright. Looks like this town jus' bagged themselves a cuss'd bandit."

Relief flooded the faces of the onlookers as a pitiful cheer began to go up. They all knew that they still had a long way to go... and Mad Mac was still at large.

"Looks like we'll have a payout today. I'll go make the prep'rations."

Ramsus was lynched. He was A Bandit
Bounty payout has been awarded.

Night 4 begins now and ends between 23-47 Hours
(7/4 5:00_GMT - 7/5 5:00_GMT depending on activity)

Spoiler: Player List

Show

Ramsus - Lynched Day 4
Silent_Interim
rakkoon (Iceseer)
Chambers
Duck999 - Killed Night 1
Fin
AvatarVecna
Logic (Lex-Kat)
Thematthew
flat_footed - Killed Night 3
Smuchmuch - Killed Night 2
Murska - Lynched Day 2
Fuchur
rakkoon - Lynched Day 1
Sanity702 - Lynched Day 3
Tom the Mime (Eternis)

[Fin]

Jeez, well played Ramsus. The level of objection you put up nearly had me convinced. If it wasn't for the fact that in most games I used to play last time I was here we would always play proxies that kept me firm on the 'don't name the seer yet' path.

It was too big a risk.

Well played though.

Edit: Also, and this is just my two cents worth on the QT debate, when I used to play these last time I was on the boards we often used PMs we sent each other as evidence. It was flimsy but if I recall correctly, not frowned upon.

We never used to use QTs though so I am unaware if this means that the etiquette has changed

Edit again: Duneyrr I got $3.45 for that kill, there was 7 on the wagon and 24 divided by 7 is 3.42ish seeing as Ramsus got seven votes (literally everyone) does this mean that you didvide the bounty up exactly by the votes but only give it out to the villagers? I was under the assumption the wolf votes didn't count towards the bounty division ignore this I have your conversation with Murska properly now

[Ramsus]

Thank you for the kind words.

Think that's all I'm really allowed to say at this juncture.

[rakkoon]

Wow Ramsus, well played. It really reminded me of the Worms WW were I really was innocent and could not convince everyone. Glad I did not lynch a Sheriff in my first day back.

Personally I don't think we should share QT's but that might be something that should be in the rules of each WW game at the beginning. Hope you'll play again Ramsus.

[Ramsus]

I'm not going to stop playing games at this juncture. To be clear, my objection is to the pictures of the QT without there being a real need for that kind of thing. QT linking was expected as a possibility. And again.... hitting the barrier of what I can actually say.

Edit: I should note we should probably not discuss that topic any further since A) I'm dead and it's weird for me to post too much. and B) We were actually asked, as a group, to stop. I just felt weird not responding to people about it (and the compliments). But now I feel weird about responding too. *shrug* Hopefully Duneyrr isn't annoyed by this.

[AvatarVecna]

While I'm thinking on it: presuming they're active, if the Bartender would like to privately claim to either myself or Logic before the Night Phase is done, please do so; the seer wishes to coordinate with you.

[Fuchur]

I was away on a sportive event for almost all of the weekend, so I forgot voting and missed the cash, unfortunately. Ramsus was obvious enough, I've felt bad vibes from him after the sequence of mislynches so it only made sense to inspect him.

[smuchmuch]

(I just want to rise to grave to say: "Ha, called it !, laughed at me, did they !
... Okay sorry for the gratuitous boasting, but I think it's the first time in one of those game I actualy spotted a wolf correctly ever, let me have this, people. )

[Wizibirb]

*highfives smuchmuch from beyond the grave for calling it!* Same now I am the dead

[Duneyrr]

Night 4 has ended. Day 5 will begin shortly

- - - Updated - - -

"Chambers? Why would anyone want to kill Chambers?"

"Dunno, Sheriff, but that Mad Mac'll off anyone for ay reason, I reckon. I suppose he might've served him somethin' he didn't much care for."

"It's a shame, but life goes on."

"Man alive, ain't that a bit cold? Allways thought you got along well with Chambers."

"That I did. I visited that saloon o' his nearly every night."

"This about yer almighty tab? I hear his ol' woman'll be takin' over the business. Yer still gonna hafta plank down one way or another."

"That madman'll pay fer this. I swear on my life he'll pay."

Chambers was killed. He was The Barkeep

Silent_Interim has left the game and been replaced by Duck999

Day 5 begins now and ends in approximately 48 Hours
(7/7 5:00_GMT)

Spoiler: Player List

Show

Ramsus - Lynched Day 4
Duck999 (Silent_Interim)
rakkoon (Iceseer)
Chambers - Killed Night 4
Duck999 - Killed Night 1
Fin
AvatarVecna
Logic (Lex-Kat)
Thematthew
flat_footed - Killed Night 3
Smuchmuch - Killed Night 2
Murska - Lynched Day 2
Fuchur
rakkoon - Lynched Day 1
Sanity702 - Lynched Day 3
Tom the Mime (Eternis)

[Fin]

TheMatthew, because he is a bandit

[rakkoon]

So hows about theMatthew

NINJA FIN STRIKES AGAIN

[Thematthew]

Let me guess, the sheriff told you that?

I'm going to wait until we have actual word from the seer's proxy instead of your wild allegations fin.