Completely unimportant language misuses that bug you

[georgie_leech]

Just like gay can only mean happy.

GW

After all, coining new phrases or meanings isn't allowed, as "coin" only refers to those shiny bits of metal we exchange for goods and services.

[Bohandas]

Just like gay can only mean happy.

You missed the last paragraph. At this point in time gay cannot be used to mean happy (except in historical fiction) as that usage is no longer extant. A deprecated usage is almost as bad as a made up one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You missed the last paragraph. At this point in time gay cannot be used to mean happy (except in historical fiction) as that usage is no longer extant. A deprecated usage is almost as bad as a made up one.

I missed it because you only added it after I had posted. And that is not a reason or a defense of your position. First, gay can be used to mean happy even today. Second, I'm sure there are other neologisms who even you would agree their original meaning is extant and that doesn't make the neologism any less valid. Finally, the whole line of reasoning is ridiculous. Who gets to decide when enough time has passed? You? Me? The government? The word's new meaning is in use, has been picked up by dictionaries, the future is now

Grey Wolf

[Bohandas]

After all, coining new phrases or meanings isn't allowed, as "coin" only refers to those shiny bits of metal we exchange for goods and services.

It has to be something that in some way follows from the old meaning (coin in this sense is cognate to coin (verb)- to make a coin (noun) by ananogy of things being made in both cases). I've been repeatedly and firmly told that this definition has nothing to do with either reproductive biology or societal roles, which if taken as true rules out any connection to the classical meanings.

[Bohandas]

Which reminds me, the pronounciation of "Indianapolis". Etymologically it's obviously Indiana-polis, but it seems everyone pronounces it India-napolis.

I've always heard it pronounced Indian-apolis rather than either of those (even though, as you said, logically it really should be Indiana-polis)

[FreddyNoNose]

If ever someone posts a video of Gandalf battling Nazi's on the Death Star the internet will be complete.

Don't you remember the original Internet? I am not surprised as everyone had their memory erased because of it. j/k

[Jormengand]

I daresay that in 20 years time it will be an accepted mainstream meaning, and if it becomes so then I shall have to accept it as such because my mind has no more power or relevance to the world than anybody else's, but it is not a correct mainstream usage now, so until that time I will continue to be bothered by it.

It is a largely accepted meaning, despite your stubborn refusal to accept it.

It has to be something that in some way follows from the old meaning (coin in this sense is cognate to coin (verb)- to make a coin (noun) by ananogy of things being made in both cases). I've been repeatedly and firmly told that this definition has nothing to do with either reproductive biology or societal roles, which if taken as true rules out any connection to the classical meanings.

Except that it doesn't. We've explained this.

Did you just decide to post crap in this thread because the thread for talking smack about trans people is closed? Or do you actually expect that people will believe you despite the fact that they have shown the wisdom not to?

[Bohandas]

Who's talking smack?

The things I've said are dismissive at worst. I haven't said anythig hostile; though I might as well since it's clear you're going to assume hostility anyway.

[Jormengand]

Who's talking smack?

The things I've said are dismissive at worst. I haven't said anythig hostile; though I might as well since it's clear you're going to assume hostility anyway.

Yes, I assume you're being hostile when you're using your flawed understanding of linguistics, psychology and biology to critique the idea of me being who I am. Yes, I assume you're being hostile when you come here just to complain about the way I talk about my own gender. Yes, I assume you're being hostile when you didn't drop being a jerk to trans people when the thread for doing so was locked. Yes, I assume you're being hostile when you resume hostilities. That shouldn't surprise you.

[Bohandas]

There;s a big difference between being indifferent to people and actually being hostile to them. Technically they're mutually exclusive.

[Jormengand]

There;s a big difference between being indifferent to people and actually being hostile to them. Technically they're mutually exclusive.

Ah yes, indifference, that feeling you have towards people who want to be accepted and about whom you construe that as shoving their opinions down your throats. Indifference, yes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It has to be something that in some way follows from the old meaning (coin in this sense is cognate to coin (verb)- to make a coin (noun) by ananogy of things being made in both cases).

For the third time: just like gay meaning "homosexual" follows from the old meaning "happy", of course.

GW

[2D8HP]

For the third time: just like gay meaning "homosexual" follows from the old meaning "happy", of course.

GW

When I was a kid in the early 1970's my parents would refer to "the straights" meaning non beats/hippies (same meaning as "squares" had in the 1950's ya dig? Yes I was a "tie-dyed diaper baby")..

That "straight" came to mean "heterosexual" in the 1980's caused me some confusion.

[Lissou]

When I was a kid in the early 1970's my parents would refer to "the straights" meaning non beats/hippies (same meaning as "squares" had in the 1950's ya dig? Yes I was a "tie-dyed diaper baby")..

That "straight" came to mean "heterosexual" in the 1980's caused me some confusion.

It's still used that way. "The straight man", "with a straight face" and so on. I guess I can understand the confusion but I wasn't particularly confused learning both meanings at once. It makes sense, both mean "conforming to X", the difference is just what X means.

[Velaryon]

How do you feel about "n'est pas" vs "innit"? :D

Not familiar with the usage of either of those, but if there are perfectly serviceable English equivalents then I would likewise call them unnecessary.

[georgie_leech]

Not familiar with the usage of either of those, but if there are perfectly serviceable English equivalents then I would likewise call them unnecessary.

Heh. Innit is a heavily accented version of "isn't it," so I'd say there's an english equivalent.

[Rockphed]

I also object to the redefinition of the redefinition of the word "planet". It was needless and it wasn't applied consistently; if I understamd it correctly then technically Neptune shouldn't be a planet for the same reason that Pluto doesn't meet the definition, the orbits of the two bodies intersect

While on the one hand I agree that the IAU definition change was slightly arbitrary and poorly executed, I think the proper place to look to decide how to define planets is at exoplanets. The smallest planets discovered outside our solar system are only slightly bigger than the moon. One, Draugr, orbits the long dead remains of a star, the other of similar size orbits a main-sequence star at about .1 AU (9.3 million miles). As planets get bigger and closer to their parent star, it becomes easier to detect them. As they get smaller and further away, it becomes harder to find them. I think that having a threshold for planet hood be based on how hard to detect the object around another star would be best, but the current IAU rules approximate that without having too much statistical weight.

That said, Pluto will always be a planet to me.

[Rockphed]

It's still used that way. "The straight man", "with a straight face" and so on. I guess I can understand the confusion but I wasn't particularly confused learning both meanings at once. It makes sense, both mean "conforming to X", the difference is just what X means.

Also, especially on tvtropes, "played straight" meaning "went the expected route with the trope".

[Velaryon]

Heh. Innit is a heavily accented version of "isn't it," so I'd say there's an english equivalent.

That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure because I don't usually see it written out. As you say it's just accented English, so I don't think it really counts.

[Aedilred]

Also, especially on tvtropes, "played straight" meaning "went the expected route with the trope".

I wonder whether this goes back to a longer expression, "play with a straight bat". A cricket reference referring to doing something in a completely orthodox and technically correct (if by implication, somewhat unimaginative) way. This on the basis that coaching manuals and consequently classical cricket coaches would teach young players to keep their bat upright at all times. Conversely, to say someone is "not playing with a straight bat" carries a hint of gamesmanship or shenanigans about it.

It's fairly easy to surmise a derivation of "played straight" from "played with a straight bat".

I presume however that in the sexuality sense, "straight" came about as the opposite of "bent". That there seems now to be some degree of overlap might simply be coincidence.

[2D8HP]

I wonder whether this goes back to a longer expression, "play with a straight bat". A cricket reference referring to doing something in a completely orthodox and technically correct (if by implication, somewhat unimaginative) way. ..

Well the 1962 booklet that comed from 1959's
"How to speak hip" album,

(which is as funny as I remember!),

On the subject (sorry) there was a mighty funny record album from 1959 titled "How to speak Hip". It was mostly obsolete (and funny sounding slang). Sample: "I am now disguised as an actual hipster" "Hey man, who's the cat with the microphone in his beard?"..... "Well gotta go work to pay the rent" "What's he do?" "He's in the insurance business" "Hey he just got hit by a car!" "Yeah man, like I said, the insurance business".

has "Straights" as "Civilian cigarettes" (presumably regular tobacco)



"Straight" itself had multiple "hip" meanings, some of which are contradictory (meaning both sober and intoxicated in different contexts)

source

More interesting to me is that "hipster" was largely synonymous with "beat/beatnik" shading into non-violent criminals and artists, wheras today the way I mostly hear "hipster" used makes it sound more like a substitute fot "yuppie" (Young Urban Professional).

[Draconi Redfir]

i can't help but cringe any time i hear someone pronoucne "Nursery" as "Nurshery"

there is no H in the word! Why are you pronouncing an H in the word if one does not exist in it!?

[Peelee]

has "Straights" as "Civilian cigarettes" (presumably regular tobacco)

So there are military cigarettes, I assume? I imagine they're like when the US tried to assassinate Castro with exploding cigars; we used military-grade smokables, not wimpy civvies.

[2D8HP]

So there are military cigarettes, I assume? I imagine they're like when the US tried to assassinate Castro with exploding cigars; we used military-grade smokables, not wimpy civvies.

Peelee,

I will never win.

Keep it up!

[Peelee]

Peelee,

I will never win.

Keep it up!

See, that's when you jump in saying that "military grade" means "done by the lowest bidder," and that the military grade cigarettes are probably just rolled hay or something.

[137beth]

I also object to the redefinition of the redefinition of the word "planet". It was needless and it wasn't applied consistently; if I understamd it correctly then technically Neptune shouldn't be a planet for the same reason that Pluto doesn't meet the definition, the orbits of the two bodies intersect

Would you prefer that Pluto be called a space station instead?

I know transsexual people exist. I never said that they didn't or anything even close to denying that they do. There are many men who identify as women and many women who identify as men and they are men and women respectively because the words refer to reproductive structures rather than states of mind or quarternary sex characteristics in the brain. I'm not saying that how the language works is a good thing either; it's bad and it's sad but that's still the fact of what the words mean. Just because it's bad doesn't mean it isn't true. Global warming isn't good either but it's true and people have to deal with it.

Just as faith can not really move mountains, how you feel on the inside doesn't change the facts of language or biology It is impossible for things of the mind to directly override things of the world or of culture.

I daresay that in 20 years time it will be an accepted mainstream meaning, and if it becomes so then I shall have to accept it as such because my mind has no more power or relevance to the world than anybody else's, but it is not a correct mainstream usage now, so until that time I will continue to be bothered by it.

You know, it's been quite awhile since I've read anything in ancient languages, but I'm pretty sure I recall a Roman poet describing a trans woman, who was referred to using masculine nouns at the beginning and then abrubtly switched to feminine nouns (the poet did so without actually using the words for "man" or "woman," instead taking advantage of the fact that all nouns in Latin have genders.) I think it was Catullus, but my memory is pretty damn hazy.
I think the usage you are complaining about might be a bit older than you realize.

After all, coining new phrases or meanings isn't allowed, as "coin" only refers to those shiny bits of metal we exchange for goods and services.

Could I sig this? Or at least extended-sig it? This post is the funniest thing I have read all day (not much of an achievement considering I just woke up, but still)

[Knaight]

I know transsexual people exist. I never said that they didn't or anything even close to denying that they do. There are many men who identify as women and many women who identify as men and they are men and women respectively because the words refer to reproductive structures rather than states of mind or quarternary sex characteristics in the brain. I'm not saying that how the language works is a good thing either; it's bad and it's sad but that's still the fact of what the words mean. Just because it's bad doesn't mean it isn't true. Global warming isn't good either but it's true and people have to deal with it.

Nonsense. As with all things biological definitions are complicated and frequently partially contradictory and subject to recent updates (the knowledge that DNA was where genetic traits were stored is less than 70 years old, and we can now edit genomes and induce new traits in multicellular organisms. That level of knowledge doesn't come without altering a few models). On top of that the words have been used for secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics for approximately as long as the words have existed, as is evidenced by people using them on people when they haven't actually seen the reproductive organs in question. Even if you completely ignore brains you've got gamete count, chromosomes, hormone concentrations, morphology of primary sexual characteristics, morphology of secondary sexual characteristics, and a whole bunch of other things because biology is complicated. All of these are used as models, all of these can contradict each other, and if you look at how people actually determine gender on a day to day basis when you don't have access to a suite of biological tests a whole bunch more appear that are cultural in nature. That's how the words have been used for a long time, that's what they mean, and insisting that they only refer to reproductive structures is prescriptivism based on a downright shoddy understanding of biology.

[georgie_leech]

Could I sig this? Or at least extended-sig it? This post is the funniest thing I have read all day (not much of an achievement considering I just woke up, but still)

By all means, sig away

[Bohandas]

Nonsense. As with all things biological definitions are complicated and frequently partially contradictory and subject to recent updates (the knowledge that DNA was where genetic traits were stored is less than 70 years old, and we can now edit genomes and induce new traits in multicellular organisms. That level of knowledge doesn't come without altering a few models). On top of that the words have been used for secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics for approximately as long as the words have existed, as is evidenced by people using them on people when they haven't actually seen the reproductive organs in question. Even if you completely ignore brains you've got gamete count, chromosomes, hormone concentrations, morphology of primary sexual characteristics, morphology of secondary sexual characteristics, and a whole bunch of other things because biology is complicated. All of these are used as models, all of these can contradict each other, and if you look at how people actually determine gender on a day to day basis when you don't have access to a suite of biological tests a whole bunch more appear that are cultural in nature. That's how the words have been used for a long time, that's what they mean, and insisting that they only refer to reproductive structures is prescriptivism based on a downright shoddy understanding of biology.

I think my issue comes from the fact that I come from a zoology background educationally (technically my major was general biosci but I took very few human specific courses) and they pretty much exclusively go by gonads/gamete production. Thus the birds that lay eggs are female despite the fact that they have mismatched sex chromosomes and the males don't, peacock blennies that display behaviors typical of the females of their species but produce sperm are male, and there are non-male hyenas and lemurs despite the fact that all members of those species have phalluses and produce large quantities of testosterone

[Frozen_Feet]

Not a misuse, but a source of confusion due to etymological roots:

The prefix "trans-" means "beyond; over ; across". So for example "transhuman" means "beyond humanity".

So it takes me a few extra seconds to grok a gender of a person when they are referred to as "transwoman" or "transman".

Then there's how petty people can get about what is or isn't polite language. In Finnish, "trans" is acceptable way to refer to a transsexual/-gendered person. "Transu", meanwhile, is considered a slur. (Compare "tranny" in English.)

Another weird case was when a Polynesian got offended by polyamorous people using "poly-" prefix as a shorthand for polygamous people. They argued "poly-" should be reserved as a shorthand for Polynesian people, as is common in Polynesia. But their argument for this was that Polygamous people were somehow cultural appropriation, erasure of Polynesians etc., and went on an impressive tangent about American cultural imperialism and so forth.

The joke, of course, being that "poly-" is Greek prefix for "many", "Polynesia" comes from Greek "poly" + "nesos", literally meaning "many islands". And it was given to a group of islands by French during 1700s. "Polygamy" likewise comes from Greek and probably has existed at least as long.

---

But if there is one misuse that really bothers me, it's using the word "inevitable" in reference to things which are not. Like change of language, in this thread.

More seriously: the inevitability of change is only true in an extremely general level and across long time spans. Contrast and compare to "it's the fate of all things under the sky, to grow old and wither and die". When it comes to specific words or phrases in the present, it does not apply and certainly isn't immune to human actions and intent. People can both accidentally and intentionally butcher words to the point communication becomes difficult.

Secondly, "change" is not inherently positive. Saying "eh, language changes" in response to someone being bothered by misuses is akin to saying "eh, meat rots" to someone worrying about their next meal.