Designing Star-Fantasy Races

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm always a big fan of 'plant people' as well... maybe a species who spends their adult life as a 'magical tree' but their seeds are humanoids and travel extensively to find places to 'root' (which is based on magic stuff like galactic leylines and the like). This could be your 'ancient mysterious race'; with trees found in many worlds seemingly predating space travel of most races. Maybe central figures in Druidism?

What if they're very very long-lived, and spend part of their life in a fairly human-sized bipedal form, but have to find one of these "places of power" to put down roots from time to time to recharge, or when they want to reproduce?

[Max_Killjoy]

I would just present the Aelfar as is. Yeah, not the most politically correct, but I don't really see a culture of flesh shapers embracing motherhood with long lives without tons of people deciding to try different bits out. The nudity also makes sense. If you are into writing fiction, I'd suggest writing about Naked Grandpa. Nothing says 'Guys, nudity doesn't ogling hot women, other people are naked and you aren't supposed to be doing that' like reminding people that if nudity is the norm, Grandpa's nekkie too.

Sometimes artfully presented minimal clothing is more flattering to the form than outright nudity, and it sounds like the point is exhibition of excellence, rather than titillation, so perhaps that's another way of handling that aspect.

As for gender and sexuality, they way these people have been described, I can see them regarding physical gender as no more important or core to identity than shirt color or whatever is to most of us.

I do wonder... it sounds like they have artificial wombs and other means of reproduction -- why actually giving birth "the old way" still so important to them?

[Honest Tiefling]

What if they're very very long-lived, and spend part of their life in a fairly human-sized bipedal form, but have to find one of these "places of power" to put down roots from time to time to recharge, or when they want to reproduce?

I think Max Killjoy has a lot of good ideas, but since it isn't my setting, I didn't know how to respond. But this idea, I love and feel the need to address. If becoming Rooted is the only way to reproduce, it could lead to a sad event where the Lotusian has to say goodbye to every person they have met that isn't one of their kind. Given their tendency to be diplomats and explorers, it would stand to reason that many Lotusians enjoy the presence of other species. But if they are to continue their existence, they must sacrifice their relationships with these people. Sure, they could talk through others, but they'll know it just isn't the same, and not everyone could drop things on the frontier to go back to go scuba diving on the Lotusian worlds.

Furthermore, these rooted Lotusians would also be unable to explore. After years, possibly centuries of exploring, adventure and meeting new and exciting people, they're now...Done. Never again to experience that. The lake they are in is their world now and they might grow resentful of the younger Lotusians they have birthed because they are free. They don't know what it is like to never be able to travel or to speak to their friends again. They just can't understand that sacrifice.

Now, in some ways, this tragedy should be explored. However, given that everyone else is running around with potentially created machine spirits and escaped a dying world or are masters of flesh crafting, it seems weird that the Lotusians never fixed this issue. I would find it interesting if the Lotusians did once exist in this fashion, where once rooted you could never go back. The despair and rage they experienced could have been the event that led to the creation of the Snapperjaws, especially if younger Lotusians wanted to experience freedom and didn't always obey the Rooted ones utterly.

I just spent centuries knowing that everyone I had met in my youth had died and I had no way to prevent their suffering or even be there for them. Their friends and family died for me and I could not even know their fate. I was trapped within my own body. My own descendants could not understand, and they ignored my pleas to help those people. Now I will uproot myself and make others feel as I once did. You will know what it is like to have your freedom, your identity and your body changed. You will know pain as I have felt pain, and if I cannot make you feel as I did, you will feel pain in any way I can.

Changing the Lotusians so they could once again experience freedom could have also occurred due to a favor from another race, such as the Aurian Empire, Aelfar or the Kixians. There are a lot of ways it could go, but the idea that the Lotusians have a myriad of opinions on the matter could make for some interesting roleplay.

[Max_Killjoy]

I think Max Killjoy has a lot of good ideas, but since it isn't my setting, I didn't know how to respond. But this idea, I love and feel the need to address. If becoming Rooted is the only way to reproduce, it could lead to a sad event where the Lotusian has to say goodbye to every person they have met that isn't one of their kind. Given their tendency to be diplomats and explorers, it would stand to reason that many Lotusians enjoy the presence of other species. But if they are to continue their existence, they must sacrifice their relationships with these people. Sure, they could talk through others, but they'll know it just isn't the same, and not everyone could drop things on the frontier to go back to go scuba diving on the Lotusian worlds.

Furthermore, these rooted Lotusians would also be unable to explore. After years, possibly centuries of exploring, adventure and meeting new and exciting people, they're now...Done. Never again to experience that. The lake they are in is their world now and they might grow resentful of the younger Lotusians they have birthed because they are free. They don't know what it is like to never be able to travel or to speak to their friends again. They just can't understand that sacrifice.

Now, in some ways, this tragedy should be explored. However, given that everyone else is running around with potentially created machine spirits and escaped a dying world or are masters of flesh crafting, it seems weird that the Lotusians never fixed this issue. I would find it interesting if the Lotusians did once exist in this fashion, where once rooted you could never go back. The despair and rage they experienced could have been the event that led to the creation of the Snapperjaws, especially if younger Lotusians wanted to experience freedom and didn't always obey the Rooted ones utterly.

I just spent centuries knowing that everyone I had met in my youth had died and I had no way to prevent their suffering or even be there for them. Their friends and family died for me and I could not even know their fate. I was trapped within my own body. My own descendants could not understand, and they ignored my pleas to help those people. Now I will uproot myself and make others feel as I once did. You will know what it is like to have your freedom, your identity and your body changed. You will know pain as I have felt pain, and if I cannot make you feel as I did, you will feel pain in any way I can.

Changing the Lotusians so they could once again experience freedom could have also occurred due to a favor from another race, such as the Aurian Empire, Aelfar or the Kixians. There are a lot of ways it could go, but the idea that the Lotusians have a myriad of opinions on the matter could make for some interesting roleplay.

Even if they don't have to put down roots forever, just for say 50 years to reproduce, and then they get to go out and wander again*... it still would mean they'd need to leave everyone they know behind, and the world "out there' would change and move without them, for that 50 years.


* maybe they need the energy from the "place of power" to reproduce, but not otherwise, in a less parasite-ish way similar to how mosquitoes only need blood to reproduce.


E: I'm trying to get through the thread in detail, it's hard to read some of the mega-posts on my work laptop and follow the conversation. So if I repeat something someone's said or seem to have ignored where the conversation has already gone, it's not intentional.

[Honest Tiefling]

Even if they don't have to put down roots forever, just for say 50 years to reproduce, and then they get to go out and wander again*... it still would mean they'd need to leave everyone they know behind, and the world "out there' would change and move without them, for that 50 years.

Very true! So either version would work if the idea I presented is used.

* maybe they need the energy from the "place of power" to reproduce, but not otherwise, in a less parasite-ish way similar to how mosquitoes only need blood to reproduce.

Could be a 'place of power' (80's space fantasy after all), or it could just be the right conditions. Planets vary, and you probably don't want to have your baby in the equivalent of Death Valley. The water needs to be just right and plenty of carbon dioxide and oxygen for the widdle seedlings as well as plenty on-hand nutrients. If they have some sort of restriction or issue reproducing, that might influence them to think that each individual is precious, and life is not a gift to be wasted. That might help explain why they are so diplomatic, as they have see the struggle to make sure their young are taken care of, and know the bonds of family aren't unique to them. Heck, it could be a past issue that was solved but still heavily resonates in their culture.

Perhaps a 'place of power' isn't so much required, as heavily desired? Perhaps being Rooted in a place of power means they get better offspring and they want their offspring to have every chance they can get. They wouldn't be very expansionist, as they could only settle a handful of worlds. More worlds wouldn't really benefit them the same way, so why bother?

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

It'd be much appreciated. Would the implants be racially restricted? I think that is eaiser and could be explained that they are limited geographically and few races would put an implant into a member of another race. And due to that aversion, putting an implant into a another race could have some side effects...

What I'm essentially thinking with Arcano-Implant is that it's a racial feature; basically, every scavver gets modded at some point in their youth, either as a coming of age ritual or just a nececessity to deal with injury or whatever. These implants can't be exactly duplicated by other races; they're tailored for scavver biology.

That's not to say that arcanotech implants are unavailable to all species, but these would be treated as a kind of magic item.

After thinking about this, you might want to have some crossbreeding rules. I could recount things people have done, but I don't want to start whinging here when we have a goal! But yes, people do weird stuff with cross-breeding. So I have to ask, how common would crossbreeds be, and what crossbreeds could exist? What would be the rules of such?

Just in knee-jerk reaction, crossbreeds are semi-common; they're not going to replace purebreeds by a long shot, but they're hardly unheard of.

As for the rules... this is a shorthand, I can go into more detail when I've had time to think.

Humans can interbreed with anything. Literally, anything. However, except with some compatible species, most reproduction results in either-or offspring. If a kixian hooks up with a human and she lays her egg, she will get what are, functionally, either a pure kixian (although probably one step closer to the Integrator format) or a pure human.

Aelfar are definitely more inter-compatible than is normal, though not to the same extent as humans. They do have better access to flesh-crafting (see below) and they do tend to have a better chance of providing hybrids.

Lotusians and Snapperjaws normally can't crossbreed with anything - but that may change as we rework them. Although humans may be able to do it, since that's one of humanity's "hats".

Vanadirans can be impregnated by most species, although 90% of such pregnancies produce female vanadirans with minor traits (coloration, personality, etc) inherited from the father, and the remaining 10% produce either male or female offspring of the father's race.

Other races are a more case-by-case basis; fertile with some, infertile with most.

Flesh-crafting can be used to overcome reproductive difficulties. The simplest option is to take material from both parents and combine it to create a working hybrid in a uterine replicator. Far more complex is a long regime of what amounts to geno-therapy, permanently (unless they get themselves changed back deliberately, of course) rendering them interfertile only with each other.

Admittedly, I was never a fan of this troupe because if it is handled badly, you make your elves into Giant Pandas who refuse to bonk one another.

True enough.

Okay. I think I got confused. I like this feature, because it effectively scales with their level and is a feature that is useful throughout their career. I would also reword the racial ability to make it clear this is how it is intended, as it would affect how the race should be balanced.

Yeah, sure, that makes sense. And no worries on the confusion.

Through how are the World Ships and other ships of the Scavvers ruled? The Quarians had a militaristic structure, but if the Scavvers are perfectly happy with their awesome world ship and have tons of resources, that doesn't make sense.

Hmm... perhaps a council of either clan-elders or senior technomancers? Basically, the people who have the training to keep the World Ships running and growing are the ones in charge?

I'd also be interested in what sorts of art forms are present. And before you say that's not a part of adventuring, you need art in a campaign setting to make it seem more alive and to have awesome things to steal.

Agreed. Not an artistic person myself, but I'll put some thought into this.

Since this is space fantasy, and features actual technomancy, I'd suggest as an alternative that the "artificial intelligences" are actually artificial spirits -- spirits created from scratch to fulfill a specific purpose in a machine or system.

The spirits of the dead, however, might be kept in icons... either kept in family homes as a techno-version of ancestor shrines, or gathered in great Wisdom Vaults where some past expert or sage could be summoned up to share their knowledge.

That's... essentially what I was going for. "Tech-spirits" are akin to familiars; they're mindless, formless entities formed from raw magical energy, given consciousness through rituals and the influence of the physical shell they are bound into.

E: Putting an artificial spirit in a living body would be considered taboo, perhaps. As would putting a "natural" spirit in a machine.

E2: This makes me think of a plot seed with a rogue faction of flesh-shapers getting together with a rogue faction of scavvers to create an artificial body and inhabit it with an artificial spirit.

Nice idea, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

What if they're very very long-lived, and spend part of their life in a fairly human-sized bipedal form, but have to find one of these "places of power" to put down roots from time to time to recharge, or when they want to reproduce?

Hmm, having to use the leylines to reproduce makes sense; it further adds to why they're a rare race and explains their interest in cultivating the ley-lines.

Sometimes artfully presented minimal clothing is more flattering to the form than outright nudity, and it sounds like the point is exhibition of excellence, rather than titillation, so perhaps that's another way of handling that aspect.

As for gender and sexuality, they way these people have been described, I can see them regarding physical gender as no more important or core to identity than shirt color or whatever is to most of us.

I do wonder... it sounds like they have artificial wombs and other means of reproduction -- why is actually giving birth "the old way" still so important to them?

Firstly, that's exactly what I had in mind; it's not bout being nude, it's about artful presentation and minimalism - to the aelfar, that's even more tantalizing than actually just showing everything off.

Secondly, that is exactly right.

For your final comment, at this point, it's tradition. They didn't start out being able to do all this stuff with life-shaping, they just developed it before their original homeworld went kablooie. They've never really forgotten their roots - with their extended lifespans and abilities at cheating death, like most elves, they're socially rather conservative. It's just their culture doesn't mesh up at all with what we humans think of as conservative.

I think Max Killjoy has a lot of good ideas, but since it isn't my setting, I didn't know how to respond. But this idea, I love and feel the need to address. If becoming Rooted is the only way to reproduce, it could lead to a sad event where the Lotusian has to say goodbye to every person they have met that isn't one of their kind. Given their tendency to be diplomats and explorers, it would stand to reason that many Lotusians enjoy the presence of other species. But if they are to continue their existence, they must sacrifice their relationships with these people. Sure, they could talk through others, but they'll know it just isn't the same, and not everyone could drop things on the frontier to go back to go scuba diving on the Lotusian worlds.

Furthermore, these rooted Lotusians would also be unable to explore. After years, possibly centuries of exploring, adventure and meeting new and exciting people, they're now...Done. Never again to experience that. The lake they are in is their world now and they might grow resentful of the younger Lotusians they have birthed because they are free. They don't know what it is like to never be able to travel or to speak to their friends again. They just can't understand that sacrifice.

Now, in some ways, this tragedy should be explored. However, given that everyone else is running around with potentially created machine spirits and escaped a dying world or are masters of flesh crafting, it seems weird that the Lotusians never fixed this issue. I would find it interesting if the Lotusians did once exist in this fashion, where once rooted you could never go back. The despair and rage they experienced could have been the event that led to the creation of the Snapperjaws, especially if younger Lotusians wanted to experience freedom and didn't always obey the Rooted ones utterly.

I just spent centuries knowing that everyone I had met in my youth had died and I had no way to prevent their suffering or even be there for them. Their friends and family died for me and I could not even know their fate. I was trapped within my own body. My own descendants could not understand, and they ignored my pleas to help those people. Now I will uproot myself and make others feel as I once did. You will know what it is like to have your freedom, your identity and your body changed. You will know pain as I have felt pain, and if I cannot make you feel as I did, you will feel pain in any way I can.

Changing the Lotusians so they could once again experience freedom could have also occurred due to a favor from another race, such as the Aurian Empire, Aelfar or the Kixians. There are a lot of ways it could go, but the idea that the Lotusians have a myriad of opinions on the matter could make for some interesting roleplay.

Agree so much; some very good ideas.

And in fact, that's an excellent idea for exploring both the Lotusians and the Snapperjaws. Hells, making it that "Seedbearers" are no longer required to be stationary, even if they do still end up turning into the treants to the "Saplings'" wilden, could even be why the lotusians are experiencing a resurgence.

...You guys keep moving faster than I can keep up with, so I'll end this here, but I just want to say that your input is most valuable, Max_Killjoy, and I'm happy to welcome you to the team, if that's what you're interested in.

[Max_Killjoy]

I mean relatively voluptuous. An aelfar matriarch could give herself literally breasts the size of watermelons and buttocks the size of Japanese cooking pumpkins, but she would not, because that'd be obscenely ostentatious by the standards of her people.

I suspect one of them doing that might hear stage whispers of "How gauche! Really." behind their back.

My impression so far is that there's an aspect of "art form" to how they view flesh-shaping, and the trick wouldn't be "as big as possible", but "exactly big enough, just the right curve, just the right etc". There might even be competing artistic traditions, and "languages" of art that are meant to convey certain signals and messages.

E: the idea of all these hidden messages, layers within layers, subtle signals that other cultures just don't have the refinement to understand... I think it fits in with the idea of the aelfar as an ancient, conservative, intricate culture. Think of some of the imperial courts of our past, where the fabric, cut, and color of one's garments was sending precise signals that those who grew up in the court could receive intuitively, but those from outside were clueless about... ( "The loutish boars. Really. No one of their station should be wearing green..." )

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

I suspect one of them doing that might hear stage whispers of "How gauche! Really." behind their back.

My impression so far is that there's an aspect of "art form" to how they view flesh-shaping, and the trick wouldn't be "as big as possible", but "exactly big enough, just the right curve, just the right etc". There might even be competing artistic traditions, and "languages" of art that are meant to convey certain signals and messages.

Very much so.

And, indeed, that's definitely key to the race; it's not just about power, it's about art. They are masters of life and death, flesh and bone, blood and sinew... but, power wielded clumsily is wasted and vulgar. To display strength with precision and control, that is the measure of a true superior being.

[Honest Tiefling]

My impression so far is that there's an aspect of "art form" to how they view flesh-shaping, and the trick wouldn't be "as big as possible", but "exactly big enough, just the right curve, just the right etc". There might even be competing artistic traditions, and "languages" of art that are meant to convey certain signals and messages.

...So in this setting, it would be perfectly valid for Aelfar to discuss over dinner what is the ideal balance between aesthetics and function for boobs. And of course, a good chunk of the guests would be technically discussing their own man-boobs if they felt like being male that century.

I really shouldn't be so amused by this, especially since this is supposed to be a serious setting, but I'm still amused by it.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

...So in this setting, it would be perfectly valid for Aelfar to discuss over dinner what is the ideal balance between aesthetics and function for boobs. And of course, a good chunk of the guests would be technically discussing their own man-boobs if they felt like being male that century.

I really shouldn't be so amused by this, especially since this is supposed to be a serious setting, but I'm still amused by it.

Heh, well, 80s space fantasy isn't without its own share of silliness too. It doesn't have to be gloom and doom all the time.

[Max_Killjoy]

...You guys keep moving faster than I can keep up with, so I'll end this here, but I just want to say that your input is most valuable, Max_Killjoy, and I'm happy to welcome you to the team, if that's what you're interested in.

I'm scratching my worldbuilding and brainstorming itch.

It's your setting, so I'm just putting out ideas as they come to me.


(PS, see edit in my post above.)

[Max_Killjoy]

So... Rather than throw spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks, you should probably break things down into Systemic and Story roles for the different species to occupy.

What mechanical roles need to be covered? Well. You need a races which "Exemplifies" each class, providing good bonuses to what that class does and generally creating a nice synergy. You should also make Flexible races, which are good at a selection of classes. Once you know which races have which stat bonuses, move on to story.

What story roles need to be covered? Ultimately that depends on the reality you're trying to create. In a game where Tech v Magic v Nature is a driving force for the story you'll need races which exemplify those story roles. But in a game where it's the Living fending off the Dead in a "Necrotic Assault" type storyline, such distinctions of Tech/Magic/Nature are far less relevant than things like undead knowledge, defensiveness, or how fast someone goes from "Hold the line" to "RETREAT!"

Farscape, for example, is one of the strongest "Star Fantasy" TV Shows that has existed thus far in Western Television. To create the appropriate blend of character races they needed a Warrior Culture, a Benign Religious culture, a Dominating culture, and a Political Culture as their core identities with Human as an outside observer looking in and providing an avenue for the audience to judge different aspects of the cultures as the story progressed and introduced further cultures and examined how the initial cultures interacted with them.

You'll see the same thing on every Star Trek, by the way. Star Wars, however, focuses on a core story without much exploration of different Cultures within the core narrative. Part of why it's a Space Opera.

Once armed with these two concepts, mechanical and story role, it's fairly easy to build out from the initial framework. Strong Techno-Race? Lots of cybernetics, might actually be a robot, perhaps a tiny creature in a robot suit, large strong people (or small high grav people) who use high tech to fight. Etc, etc, etc.

Each PC race created should be tied into the core story of the setting, to give the players a definite sense of connection to the world. Otherwise they're just tourists and the stakes of the game go down, dramatically.

I agree with the last paragraph -- the story of each species should be intertwined with the overall backstory of the setting, and entangled with the nascent events going forward, in some way that makes them relevant and engaged.

My preference for creating each species, however, is quite different. I'm far more interested in applying biology, history, politics, technology, culture, etc, than I am in any sort of narrative or mechanical "roles". I really don't like planets, countries, or species "of hats".

[Max_Killjoy]

...So in this setting, it would be perfectly valid for Aelfar to discuss over dinner what is the ideal balance between aesthetics and function for boobs. And of course, a good chunk of the guests would be technically discussing their own man-boobs if they felt like being male that century.

I really shouldn't be so amused by this, especially since this is supposed to be a serious setting, but I'm still amused by it.

Heh, well, 80s space fantasy isn't without its own share of silliness too. It doesn't have to be gloom and doom all the time.

There's always a potential for a certain sort of subtle body-horror or cross-cultural "gives me the shivers" when dealing with a culture that views skin and flesh and bone as a canvas...

(Please let's not get into the Tzimesce or the Dark Eldar, with their anything-but-subtle body horror...)

[Honest Tiefling]

(Please let's not get into the Tzimesce or the Dark Eldar, with their anything-but-subtle body horror...)

Not familiar with either, but I think I get the gist of things. Maybe to balance out their vanity and horror elements, we should consider giving them some positive traits.

For instance, what if an Aelfar was born with a defect (that is not genetic, because I have no idea how that would ever occur with these people)? I assume that given their focus upon their own race and anything with Aelfar DNA being a member, they'd go out of their way to fix the issue.

Through, if they have such a concern for their own members, how are they a deadly decadent court? Or are children, pregnant people and those who are nursing just completely off the table for such things? Or is it a intricate court where fortunes are made based on one's cunning, intellect and grace, but they don't tend to assassinate each other very often? Or are the stakes higher as one's status goes higher, so lower ranking nobles might sabotage each other slightly, but queens and the like play a very different, deadly, game? Or the deadly part only comes in sanctioned duels?

Admittedly, not a big fan of the drow despite their fashionable coloration, since you'd think they'd be hard pressed to replenish their numbers.

Also, have these guys fixed any plagues? Maybe they have, with some claiming it was an altruistic act, while others claim it was simply for the challenge of it?

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

The idea of all these hidden messages, layers within layers, subtle signals that other cultures just don't have the refinement to understand... I think it fits in with the idea of the aelfar as an ancient, conservative, intricate culture. Think of some of the imperial courts of our past, where the fabric, cut, and color of one's garments was sending precise signals that those who grew up in the court could receive intuitively, but those from outside were clueless about... ( "The loutish boars. Really. No one of their station should be wearing green..." )

Indeed. That's a key part of my vision of the race.

Not familiar with either, but I think I get the gist of things. Maybe to balance out their vanity and horror elements, we should consider giving them some positive traits.

For instance, what if an Aelfar was born with a defect (that is not genetic, because I have no idea how that would ever occur with these people)? I assume that given their focus upon their own race and anything with Aelfar DNA being a member, they'd go out of their way to fix the issue.

Through, if they have such a concern for their own members, how are they a deadly decadent court? Or are children, pregnant people and those who are nursing just completely off the table for such things? Or is it a intricate court where fortunes are made based on one's cunning, intellect and grace, but they don't tend to assassinate each other very often? Or are the stakes higher as one's status goes higher, so lower ranking nobles might sabotage each other slightly, but queens and the like play a very different, deadly, game? Or the deadly part only comes in sanctioned duels?

Admittedly, not a big fan of the drow despite their fashionable coloration, since you'd think they'd be hard pressed to replenish their numbers.

Also, have these guys fixed any plagues? Maybe they have, with some claiming it was an altruistic act, while others claim it was simply for the challenge of it?

Yes, they would try to fix the defect.

Hmm... Honestly, my answer swings somewhere between your 2nd and 3rd thoughts - of the two, the third is probably closest to the truth.

Yes, most definitely.

[Max_Killjoy]

Well... it's not as if "feminine monogender race for whom sex and reproduction are independent" is that unheard of a concept in fantasy. I can easily name two races who fit that bill - the Blind Warrior-Women of Altaria, from RIFTS, and the Asari of Mass Effect, know there was a third such race from some sci-fi game in the 90s - Star Commander, I think it was called, and I'm sure there's others.

Plus... even if the backdrop is stars & planets rather than dungeons & ruins, this is still D&D. Have you seen some of the stuff that passes for biology in this game? Hard science isn't exactly the building block of the game here.

But... I am open to discussing fixing them. My basic intention with the race is to throw together the Ctarl-Ctarl of Outlaw Star, the Khaijit of Elder Scrolls (where, depending on moon-phase, kittens produced by any female khaijit can grow up to be house-cats, dire tigers, or cat-people), and the Altarian Warrior-Women and see if I can come up with something suitably pulpy/80s.

Something to keep in mind with asexual reproduction -- the alternative exists for reasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolut...etic_variation

[Max_Killjoy]

I... honestly don't know how to answer this. PF's space-fantasy elements just don't really click with me - they feel more like a PF analogue to D20 future than something that supports the "D&D in Space" motif. Spelljammer, I love it for being a non-planar world-hopping setting, but in the end, it's too campy and too obviously "Age of Sail in Space" in its motif.

I... really don't know how to explain what the setting is supposed to be. It's D&D under alien skies. Where ancient ruins may orbit dying suns and pirate kings gather the loot of a thousand worlds, ripe for the plucking. It's a place where science and sorcery are indistinguishable and often equally mysterious, where psychic elf-like matriarchs command mind-thralled hulking space orc slaves, and mechanical beings wield swords enwreathed in the same elemental fire that gives them life and soul, and brave adventurers travel between the stars on glimmer-scaled dragons whilst brandishing a sword in one hand and a pistol-like laser-wand in the other.

...Sorry, I really can't answer it better than that.

That's pretty evocative, actually. It's a great starting point to explain what you're after.

It sounds like a world where there's light, but maybe not always the "right" colors... and shining at odd angles, casting long strange deep shadows.

Spoiler: spoiler added to quote for sake of page space

Show

The Aelfar will tell you that the Sundering of the Exodus, when different colony-fleets went different ways after fleeing the death of their homeworld, was born of outside circumstances. And, this is true to an extent; space-storms and the like did play a large role in causing lone ships or whole groups to break away from the main fleet as it traveled towards its current domicile. But the truth is that a large part of the blame lies in aelfar arrogance and the simple fact that long-range communication was never a priority for them. By the time they managed to get a proper star-spanning network going, those who'd gotten lost along the way were scattered into the darkness of space; the "mainstream" community doesn't even know that any of these "strays" managed to survive.

Not that they'd care much, because even now, the aelfar are not exactly a united people. That's what happens when you're an entire race of aristocrats - there's literally no class divisions as such amongst the aelfar. You have the necromancer elves, who are basically the nobles, and you have the various engineered slave-beasts, which are, quite obviously, not going to be a political presence - how often does your computer get to vote on your income tax?

Incidentally, this means that "Aelfar Space" is a great origin point for "minor" PC races; experiments in more independent/intelligent slaves that may have failed, or worked too well, or even worked out as intended.

Aelfar society is a byzantine affair - the trope that comes to mind is "Deadly, Decadent Court". Aelfar group themselves in very large extended family units - Clans, Houses, whatever you want to call them - and these are essentially nations unto themselves that conduct both internal and external intrigue, mostly against other aelfar Houses.

Yeah, there are shades of drow culture in this, but it's essential that they're not as mindlessly obsessed with backstabbing treachery as the drow - they're not desperate to please an insane demon-goddess, after all.

Aelfar Houses are matriarchal, mostly out of symbolism: their cultural ideology is rooted in the concept that they are masters of life and death. As women, by giving birth, produce new life, they are seen as exemplifying this mastery. However, the active embrace of flesh-warping and biomancy has...influenced this. There are male House Heads... but, achieiving that position requires a sacrifice. To become able to access this highest of social ranks - in a nutshell, aelfar culture is like "male mayors are fine, male senate members are fine, but only a woman can be president" - an aelfar male has to undergo a ritualized "ascension" process, which boils down to either being transformed into a woman and undergoing a complete and successful pregnancy, or altering their anatomy to undergo a pregnancy whilst male. A House Head literally cannot claim the seat unless they've given birth at least once, and some of the more ambitious male House Heads do so more than once, for whatever reason.

Incidentally, in a "splatbook writeup" of the setting, there would be a huge sidebar here stating "yes, this is potentially some creepy crud; consider your players' feelings and adjust this aspect of the lore to suit your table!"

Despite what one might think, Aelfar culture is very much not a necrocracy. That's not to say sapient aelfar undead don't exist, but, culturally, they're inferior: undeath is seen as the route of a failure, someone who lacks the mojo to preserve their life any other way. Aelfar liches and mummies are forbidden by law from holding positions of political power and influence; an aelfar who chooses to become a lich is a very obsessed sage or even someone sentenced to this fate as the ultimate punishment.

Aelfarian longevity is assisted by their mastery of necromancy and flesh-warping. Of course, culturally, there are limits to what is acceptable; feasting on souls to sustain your youth is pretty much the height of unacceptable even to the most jaded aelfar House Head. Likewise, body-jacking younger aelfar is a hideous crime. You don't get to do that stuff. Period.

"Clone-jacking", on the other hand, where a young, soul-less body is produced in a uterine replicator for the explicit purpose of being a new host to an old soul, is legal. But "rejuvenated" aelfar are legally considered entirely new people by aelfar law. This means that such an aelfar cannot retain anything from their past life except maybe their membership in their old House, and even that can be renounced if they desire it or their House doesn't want them back. It's a brand new start... in every possible way. Many aelfar who undergo "rebirth" in that way don't even both to make an identical clone, to reinforce that by doing so, their old life is ending. New faces, new appearances - maybe even new genders, if they feel like it - it's rather like Gallifreyian Regeneration in Dr. Who, only without the ability to carry on the previous existence's life.

The Aelfar have a... complicated... relationship with the outside universe. A lot of their focus is directed inwards, for obvious reasons. But external diplomacy is a thing for many reasons. Outside factors can not only be a potential edge in the "great game" they play amongst their own kind, but the simple truth is that the novelty amuses and excites the Aelfar. After all, if you're going to live for eons, why do the same thing over and over again?

Novelty is a big commodity for these necromantic elves, and that really shouldn't be surprising when you think about it.

For obvious reasons, the "Xixixians" (and I desperately need help with a better name) attract a certain paternal fondness from the Aelfar, if with some condescending overtones. They see a kindred spirit and the bugs are eager to learn from the masters, so tutelage and trade are common.

Traggens amuse the aelfar, who see them as perfect playthings; easily bent to heel by enchantment spells if brute force is necessary, easily goaded by the skilled diplomat, and mindlessly violent enough to be huge fun as the war against each other, battle-beasts or anyone the aelfar sees fit to aim them at - yes, this has strained ties with the galaxy when they realize aelfar houses are behind traggen crusades.

Dworgs really don't like the aelfar, but when they're aware of them, the aelfar actually quite like them. The fact that these are "traggen with brains" intrigues and excites the aelfar, who consider them much better sport. Hells, if I ever do 5e crunch for the Tel-Amhothlan (elf/orc hybrids from Kingdoms of Kalamar), they would fit in perfectly as the fruit of the rare unions when aelfar persuade dworg "rival-friends" to give in to their feelings of Foe Yay. That's not to say there aren't traggen-born Tel-Amhothlan, but they're much rarer, as fewer aelfar see the traggen as being worth coaxing into bed.

Felinoids are similar to the traggen, as far as Aelfar are concerned: deliciously violent and primitive, and so much fun to play with.

Humans are fun; not as viable as sport as the traggen and felinoids, but amusing, and that adaptability has such interesting prospects. Aelfar being aelfar, this interest can range from trading agreements to trying to enslave and experiment upon humans to trying to get humans into bed.

Denizens of the Aurian Empire are mostly rivals, which in the aelfar viewpoint actually makes them valuable friends: testing their mettle against the military might of the Aurian Empire is a good way to while away the centuries.

For the same reason, Quetzalii and their tendency to hate aelfar makes them fun, although most consider them much more boring than dworgs - so prone to ranting about "the light" and all that nonsense.

Snapperjaws are basically slave-stock waiting to be tamed, as far as the aelfar are concerned. They haven't succeeded on a wide scale yet, but they've had results promising enough to keep the "kill them all, they're useless vermin" advocates to an easily ignored minority.

Lotusians make aelfar roll their eyes with their preaching, but the elves do respect the plant-sages. They just don't show it very openly. Still, they admire the lotusian pasion, and their knack for surviving.

Scavvers are... mostly under the aelfar radar. These space elves prefer bio-tech and necro-tech for their gear, so they don't have a lot of interest in the mekanikal artificering of the scavvers. They're not hostile, they just... don't usually interact.

Voidstalkers are a source of keen interest, and their assassins have often had profitable relationships amongst the aelfar Houses.

...And, I've basically run out of steam here, so I'll just leave this for when you return.

You're really off to a great start with this.

Somewhere in the thread I got the idea that the Scavvers and the Aelfar were somehow related in their distant origins, that they had left their original homeworld(s) for related reasons or something -- was that someone else's idea that was bouncing around, or something you'd mentioned along the way? IMO, there's a lot to be said for some connection, mistrust, and/or relationship between the masters of flesh-magic and the masters of tech-magic.

[Honest Tiefling]

Somewhere in the thread I got the idea that the Scavvers and the Aelfar were somehow related in their distant origins, that they had left their original homeworld(s) for related reasons or something -- was that someone else's idea that was bouncing around, or something you'd mentioned along the way? IMO, there's a lot to be said for some connection, mistrust, and/or relationship between the masters of flesh-magic and the masters of tech-magic.

Along this vein, the Scavvers have horn like protrusions from their skulls. Presumably the Oni would as well. Is there a hint of relation between the two?

And to be fair, oni and tielfings have had a shared ancestry anyway in DnD for a few editions...

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

That's pretty evocative, actually. It's a great starting point to explain what you're after.

It sounds like a world where there's light, but maybe not always the "right" colors... and shining at odd angles, casting long strange deep shadows.

Why, thank you!

Somewhere in the thread I got the idea that the Scavvers and the Aelfar were somehow related in their distant origins, that they had left their original homeworld(s) for related reasons or something -- was that someone else's idea that was bouncing around, or something you'd mentioned along the way? IMO, there's a lot to be said for some connection, mistrust, and/or relationship between the masters of flesh-magic and the masters of tech-magic.

No... nothing about a direct connection was ever mentioned or implied before you. They both lost their worlds, but their species aren't related - they even lost them in different ways.

Along this vein, the Scavvers have horn like protrusions from their skulls. Presumably the Oni would as well. Is there a hint of relation between the two?

And to be fair, oni and tielfings have had a shared ancestry anyway in DnD for a few editions...

Wasn't particularly planning on it; the Oni are supposed to be mutated traggen, created and then discarded by the Aurian Empire.

[Max_Killjoy]

No... nothing about a direct connection was ever mentioned or implied before you. They both lost their worlds, but their species aren't related - they even lost them in different ways.

I must have misread something, then. Regardless, it does make a point of contrast between the two cultures.

[Honest Tiefling]

I must have misread something, then. Regardless, it does make a point of contrast between the two cultures.

Agreed. Are any races related? It might help flesh out a race you are having issues with.

And what are the Scavver 'Horns'? Personally, I would find it amusing if the Oni had tusks, as opposed to the Scavvers, who have a more horn-like structure. Then again, maybe having people poach Oni for their ivory would be too silly.

As for continuing the thread, let's go back to the Scavvers. They're little artic techmonkies, with strong respect for their technology due to spirits inhabiting it. They're modest, since their culture derived from one wearing a lot of clothes and because they have a lot of snarky tech lying around complaining at them.

1) What of gender? Yeah, we have some interesting options in the Aelfar and Lotusians, but we don't know what their view of it is.

2) What are their views of the environment? Perhaps they don't have a high respect for nature, because nature on their world kept trying to eat them. Why preserve dumb animals and useless plants at the expense of sapient life? Especially when that life tries to eat your children constantly? Would also be another pro for the whole world ship thing. No space dingos trying to eat your babies.

3) Maybe they hate vermin. They like their world ships nice and clean, and a vermin infestation is from some idiot bringing one on board. These things have no use or purpose to them, and therefore must be eradicated.

4) Are other people allowed on their world ships? I imagine if you are doing a space fantasy world ship there is room to spare, but things aren't built for them.

5) No race other then the Lotusians seem to have scent. Who would have scent? I feel like this shouldn't be the scavver to make them more Greasemonkey and less actual monkey, but perhaps the Oni should have scent?

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Agreed. Are any races related? It might help flesh out a race you are having issues with.

Hmm... just thinking about it...

Oni and Dworgs are both offshoots of the Traggen race.

Snapperjaws are an offshoot of the Lotusian race.

It might perhaps be interesting if Quetzalii are actually the origin point for Ryujin - that, much like how the Aurian God-Emperors originally made Oni by corrupting/mutating Traggen, they similarly perverted the Quetzalli to create their new slave-soldiers, repeating history.

In fact, back on page 2, I think the original concept of the Quetzalii is that they were humans, originally, but used ancient rites/relics to transform themselves into the semblance of and/or heirs to a now-extinct race of (somewhat misconceptually perceived as) benevolent beings - basically an adaptation of the 3.5 lore for Dragonborn, but using Coatls intead of Dragons. So, whilst Quetzalii can propagate themselves, they can also transform human volunteers into new members of their race as well.

This would make Ryujin originate as either humans or Quetzalii, although they are now their own independent race - it's more of the difference between Apes and Humans, whilst the Traggen-Dworg/Oni split is more of a Neanderthal/Cro-magnon level of difference.

There aren't any other races off the top of my head that I was thinking are directly related to each other, although that is something we should maybe discuss?

And what are the Scavver 'Horns'? Personally, I would find it amusing if the Oni had tusks, as opposed to the Scavvers, who have a more horn-like structure. Then again, maybe having people poach Oni for their ivory would be too silly.

Scavver horns are chitinous growths; they serve no practical purpose, but may have been mating displays in their primordial ancestors. Oni horns are reinforced bone and are sharp & durable enough to be used as weapons.

As for continuing the thread, let's go back to the Scavvers. They're little artic techmonkies, with strong respect for their technology due to spirits inhabiting it. They're modest, since their culture derived from one wearing a lot of clothes and because they have a lot of snarky tech lying around complaining at them.

Yeah, that's more or less how they're shaping up to be.

1) What of gender? Yeah, we have some interesting options in the Aelfar and Lotusians, but we don't know what their view of it is.

I was thinking that, for scavvers, they're fairly normal. Being monotremes removes a lot of the inherent "gender vulnerability" of a more mammalian organism - their young gestate externally in eggs, after all - and so that makes them fairly gender indifferent. Men and women exist, but there's no real reason to push them to different roles.

That said, in most egg-laying species, the females are larger than the males, to better cope with the act. Not saying that scavvers would be outright matriachal - if anything, they would probably be more techno-magocrical, relying on the leadership of those best adept at manipulating the arcane sciences and sorceries that sustain their existence - but it might be simple biology that the female scavvers are bigger than the males.

2) What are their views of the environment? Perhaps they don't have a high respect for nature, because nature on their world kept trying to eat them. Why preserve dumb animals and useless plants at the expense of sapient life? Especially when that life tries to eat your children constantly? Would also be another pro for the whole world ship thing. No space dingos trying to eat your babies.

That... actually makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider it further fuels why they'd prefer World Ships to living on inhabited worlds, particularly if we emphasize their homeworld's status as a Death World - which makes the Kixians and their love of their similarly lethal homeworld really incomprehensible to them, and furthermore builds a sense of common ground with the Aelfar, who suffer no lower life save that which they can master.

In fact, given their Iconic Class is the Artificer, who have the ability to create a lesser construct helper as a universal class feature... maybe most animal and even many plant lifeforms on the World Ships are mekanikal constructs? Clearly machine-based, but somehow acting like plants and animals?

...As I say this, and I'll hope you both forgive me, this blend of masked figures and preferring mekanikal life to organic is kind of reminding me of the Quintessons, which may be fruitful territory to explore.

3) Maybe they hate vermin. They like their world ships nice and clean, and a vermin infestation is from some idiot bringing one on board. These things have no use or purpose to them, and therefore must be eradicated.

That makes all too much sense.

4) Are other people allowed on their world ships? I imagine if you are doing a space fantasy world ship there is room to spare, but things aren't built for them.

Hmm... I'd say that direct access is probably very restricted. Scavvers are the friendliest neighbors in the world, so long as you reciprocate their "this is your side of the fence, this is mine, we don't cross over, see?" attitude. They never fail to be polite when landing on other worlds to trade or do whatever, but they are fiercely protective of the independence and sovereignty of their homes.

Respect that, and you got no problem. Indeed, once they feel comfortable enough that they can trust you, they'll allow you aboard: it's just not something they extend automatically to everybody. And violating trust of that level? Ohhh boy. They don't ever forget, or forgive.

5) No race other then the Lotusians seem to have scent. Who would have scent? I feel like this shouldn't be the scavver to make them more Greasemonkey and less actual monkey, but perhaps the Oni should have scent?

I would argue that all of the "beastfolk" races - ryujin, ki'rinii, hengeyokai, quetzalii, kixians, gyokutans, vardirans, the lotusians, the snapperjaws and the oni should have scent abilities. The snapperjaws retain it because of their lotusians (maybe just call 'em "Veshy", plural and singular?) ancestry, the beastfolk have it because they're more "animalistic", and oni had it engineered into them by the God-Emperors to better blend in.

I'd also argue that pheromone "language" is probably most important amongst the veshy, the snapperjaws and the oni, whilst for the beastfolk races, it's more an added level of nuance to body language and spoken communication.

[Max_Killjoy]

The scavvers don't have to hold a monolithic opinion on a lot of things... those different ships and fleets also present the possibility of different subcultures.

Maybe some of the big ships maintained zoos, trying to preserve the life of their native world.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

The scavvers don't have to hold a monolithic opinion on a lot of things... those different ships and fleets also present the possibility of different subcultures.

Maybe some of the big ships maintained zoos, trying to preserve the life of their native world.

Hmm... you know, that actually does make a lot of sense. The antipathy towards vermin and parasites probably is more monolithic, but, you're right, scavvers could run the gambit from "desperately preserving what they can of the old world" to "artificial life is superior".

Also, can we come up with a better name? "Scavver" really derives from "Scavenger", and I'm not sure that it works as a name if this race isn't desperately clinging to existence on the fringes of society like the quarians were.

[Max_Killjoy]

Hmm... you know, that actually does make a lot of sense. The antipathy towards vermin and parasites probably is more monolithic, but, you're right, scavvers could run the gambit from "desperately preserving what they can of the old world" to "artificial life is superior".

Also, can we come up with a better name? "Scavver" really derives from "Scavenger", and I'm not sure that it works as a name if this race isn't desperately clinging to existence on the fringes of society like the quarians were.

Maybe part of what of what makes them somewhat frustrating to deal with for other cultures is that you can think you know all the ins and outs and quirks of dealing with them... and then you run into a group from another fleet.

As for that name, here's some brainstorming:

Katikarat
Relojero
Zegarmistrz
Shasovnik
Demjimêr
Kelloseppä

Spoiler: The "big secret"

Show

When I'm stuck for a name, I start throwing words that are related to the thing I'm trying to name into Google Translate, until something inspires me, and then play with it until I like the result.

Each of those words is "clockmaker" in another language.

Or maybe they don't share names for certain things in their own language, for reasons related to why they don't show their skin, or because names have power, or...

Maybe "scavver" was an insulting name someone else applied to them in the distant past, and they decided to own it.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

That's a pretty neat idea, and it makes sense. Different world-fleets being unique sounds like a good angle to me.

Also, from your sample names, I think Rollejero catches my attention the most.

Now... I wanted to wait until Honest_Tiefling was back to bring this up, but I feel I should just go ahead and share it. I've been doing some thinking about the Tanuki race of the Aurian Empire, and here's something that came to me: in the myths, as I recall, tanuki are very fond of sake, and they're frequently depicted carrying a sake gourd (which, admittedly, is based on their status as symbols of good luck). Morever, they're actually considered one of the more magically powerful breeds of hengeyokai, even better at shapeshifting than kitsunes are.

So, what if the "role" the tanuki play in the Aurian empire is as a race of alchemists? The Aurians have a big "fantasy Orient in space" motif, and alchemy was very important in China (and, to a lesser extent, Japan) - they would essentially be the empire's "tech guys", responsible for many of their basic magical gears and medicines.

If that works... here's an expansion that's more controversial: given that tanuki are rather heavily gender-aspected in their traditional mythos, perhaps one way of homaging it is to have it that the God-Emperors have manipulated the tanuki race; females are now kept under close control, and dosed with alchemical concoctions that cause 90% of all tanuki to be born male. This stranglehold over the reproductive abilities of the race forces the tanuki to obey the God-Emperors loyally and serve them, or else risk extinction.

There's also the possibility of this leading to a "third" gender that basically amounts to "expendable" males repurposed into comfort women used to keep the majority of males who'll never win breeding rights under control, but that's probably too dark and/or fetish fuelly to be taken seriously.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's a pretty neat idea, and it makes sense. Different world-fleets being unique sounds like a good angle to me.

Also, from your sample names, I think Rollejero catches my attention the most.

Mess around with it a bit, tweak it to fit.

Now... I wanted to wait until Honest_Tiefling was back to bring this up, but I feel I should just go ahead and share it. I've been doing some thinking about the Tanuki race of the Aurian Empire, and here's something that came to me: in the myths, as I recall, tanuki are very fond of sake, and they're frequently depicted carrying a sake gourd (which, admittedly, is based on their status as symbols of good luck). Morever, they're actually considered one of the more magically powerful breeds of hengeyokai, even better at shapeshifting than kitsunes are.

So, what if the "role" the tanuki play in the Aurian empire is as a race of alchemists? The Aurians have a big "fantasy Orient in space" motif, and alchemy was very important in China (and, to a lesser extent, Japan) - they would essentially be the empire's "tech guys", responsible for many of their basic magical gears and medicines.

If that works... here's an expansion that's more controversial: given that tanuki are rather heavily gender-aspected in their traditional mythos, perhaps one way of homaging it is to have it that the God-Emperors have manipulated the tanuki race; females are now kept under close control, and dosed with alchemical concoctions that cause 90% of all tanuki to be born male. This stranglehold over the reproductive abilities of the race forces the tanuki to obey the God-Emperors loyally and serve them, or else risk extinction.

There's also the possibility of this leading to a "third" gender that basically amounts to "expendable" males repurposed into comfort women used to keep the majority of males who'll never win breeding rights under control, but that's probably too dark and/or fetish fuelly to be taken seriously.

While normally I'd avoid "planet of hats" worldbuilding like I'd avoid the plague, or gas station sushi... in the case of your Aurian Empire with its Confucian undertones and "quasi-deity" rulers, I think it makes sense.

There's some risk in using alchemy and medicine as the heavy-handed means of enforcing the loyalty of the people who are also your best and brightest in those fields and do most of that work.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

I forgot to bring this up... essentially, what I'm thinking about on a meta-level is that the Couatls, the Aurian Emperors and the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers represent the last remnants of ancient "dragon-gods", dragon-like demi-deities who once ruled the universe. Furthermore, they all contrast each other by being morally gray, and yet exhibiting it in different ways.

For the Couatls, they're remembered as a force of good, when the truth was their battling evil was mostly due to finding it fun and as part of a complex social manuevering system than anything.

The Clan-Mothers are supposed to be relatively "human"; they created the Vanadirans for kinship and company, because they were lonely, and they do care for their daughters... but they still enjoy how those daughters will fight, bleed and kill to try and express their love and worship for the beings who gave birth to them.

The Aurians truly mean well, and there should be some positive traits to the Empire as well. But, they are arrogant, full of over-inflated egos, and willing to squash dissent because of that superiority - "I know what's best, so shut up and do what I say", in a nutshell, which causes them to lean the most heavily towards black of the three, just as the Couatls, due to being dead and somewhat taken out of context, lean the most towards being white.

Does this make sense to you all?

[Max_Killjoy]

I forgot to bring this up... essentially, what I'm thinking about on a meta-level is that the Couatls, the Aurian Emperors and the Vanadiran Clan-Mothers represent the last remnants of ancient "dragon-gods", dragon-like demi-deities who once ruled the universe. Furthermore, they all contrast each other by being morally gray, and yet exhibiting it in different ways.

For the Couatls, they're remembered as a force of good, when the truth was their battling evil was mostly due to finding it fun and as part of a complex social manuevering system than anything.

The Clan-Mothers are supposed to be relatively "human"; they created the Vanadirans for kinship and company, because they were lonely, and they do care for their daughters... but they still enjoy how those daughters will fight, bleed and kill to try and express their love and worship for the beings who gave birth to them.

The Aurians truly mean well, and there should be some positive traits to the Empire as well. But, they are arrogant, full of over-inflated egos, and willing to squash dissent because of that superiority - "I know what's best, so shut up and do what I say", in a nutshell, which causes them to lean the most heavily towards black of the three, just as the Couatls, due to being dead and somewhat taken out of context, lean the most towards being white.

Does this make sense to you all?

It makes sense to me.

Is it widely understood that they're the remnants? Do they use this as a validation of their power, in the way that a king might claim descent from a semi-mythical hero or demigod, or the founder of an ancient dynasty?

Or are their origins "secret knowledge", or lost in the fog of the long-distant past?

Do the two remaining "ruling castes" make different / competing claims as to why the old empire fell, as to who is the legitimate inheritor of the "ruling mandate", etc?

Do the two "ruling castes" have access to secret knowledge, science, etc, from the old empire that isn't shared with any of their subjects, and allows them to maintain their edge? This might answer how the Aurians are able to manipulate the reproduction of the Tanuki, who are supposed to be their empire's "alchemists" and "physicians", without the Tanuki easily overcoming it.

[Max_Killjoy]

No... nothing about a direct connection was ever mentioned or implied before you. They both lost their worlds, but their species aren't related - they even lost them in different ways.

Found it -- I knew I wasn't crazy (at least as it relates to this particular thing).

This gives me an idea. What if the Scavvers and the Aelfar were from the same dead world, and originally one people?

I also saw your subsequent reply.