Path of War Zealot Build Help

[applied_people]

First things first. THANKS for all the work you've put into your Zealot guides @Elricaltovilla and @Castilonium! And thank you to all those who contributed frequently and thoughtfully to the discussion of each guide here on the forums.

With that taken care of, I'm hoping I can get some build help with a Zealot I want to play in my group's next campaign (should begin in about a month). Before I get to the build, there are a few important things to consider that should be factored into any advice offered. I posted this to the discussion thread for Castilonium's guide, but that's a bit old at this point. Hopefully, starting this new thread will get some eyes and advice.

Spoiler: Considerations

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• 1. My DM has agreed to allow 3PP content as long as he has access to the materials for review. That being said, I want to be very cautious with this character and not get 3PP materials bonked with the ban hammer for seeming too OP. I already optimize the most in our group and can tend to overshadow the other players. For that reason, I want this character to be focused on a protection/control tanking style vs. a damage dealing style.
  
• 2. While I consider myself a reasonably experienced player, there feels like a lot of built in complexity in this class (with great potential for it to get even more complex). So for this 'starter' zealot, I'd like to keep things pretty simple in the hopes that this will allow me to have a good handle on my character and his abilities and not slow down play at the table. Again...I fear the ban hammer.
  
• 3. I'm open to making big changes or small changes, to dipping, to whatever really...but keeping in mind the goals of relative ease of play, a focus on making the group shine and keeping it safe, and not frustrating my DM!

Spoiler: Half-Giant Protection Zealot

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Starting Attributes
Strength: 17 (15 + 2 racial)
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 8
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 16

Traits (getting 3 by taking a flaw)
Alternate Racial Traits: Liberty or Death & Psionic Resonance
- Adopted (Helpful)
- Community Minded
- Blade of Mercy

Martial Tradition: Lords of the Wheel (Riven Hourglass for Piercing Thunder)

Feats and Class Abilities (Favored class bonuses going to 1/4 conviction)
1F: Discipline Focus (Eternal Guardian)
2C: Combat Conviction --> Enforcer (Horsechopper)
3F: Extra Conviction --> Impulsive Reactions
4C: Personality Fragment (+3 to Intimidate)
5F: Bodyguard
6C: Psionic Conviction --> Unlocked Talent (Minor Metamorphosis)
7F: Pikeman's Training
8C: Improved Zeal
9F: Psicrystal Containment
10C: Path of Dedication
11F: Psicrystal Reservoir
12C: Path of Dedication, Improved
13F: Discipline Mastery
14C: Strike of Unity
15F: Advanced Study
16C: Combat Conviction --> Advanced Study

I've tried to work through some of my maneuver selections as well, but, of course, I'm doing so in a vaccum since I've no idea what campaign we'll be playing yet. At any rate, here's where I'm at though 5th level:

1st: Vigilant Keeper's Stance, Terrifying Blow (s), Hunting Party (s), Harmony Shattering Strike (s), Encouraging Roar (b), and Minute Hand (b)
2nd: Unbroken Stride (stance), Pride Movement (b)
3rd: Fear the Reaper (c)
4th: Relentless Warden's Strike (replacing Minute Hand)
5th: Riven Hourglass Stance, Chains of Doubt (s)

[JonathanPDX]

If you're in the level 5-9 range the absolute best thing you can do is get Elemental Flux Stance. For the cost of one 1st level maneuver known and a trait to access the discipline, you're getting +2D6 electrical damage, 15 electrical resist, +4 initiative and +4 dodge AC. You can even switch your active element between encounters for Fast Healing 1! It's totally overpowered and unbalanced compared to similar options at that level but it's so good, and it fits your defensive theme.

I know damage isn't your goal, but I've been playing a Zealot in a gestalt Skull & Shackles Campaign for a few months and it's a blast. Move action aid another, swift action boost, standard action strike makes for a very efficient combat cycle. My character is a Psion (Egoist) / Zealot with Scarlet Throne and Elemental Flux disciplines. Rising Zenith Strike is essentially a guaranteed crit and there are a lot of tricks to max your Sense Motive check to make it even greater than your attack bonus. In my case, I'm throwing around 8D6 weapon damage (Huge size from Metamorphosis, doubled) +2D6 electrical (Flux stance) +4D8 (Noble Blade Boost, doubled) +24 (STR boosted by Metamorphosis, doubled) +12 (power attack, doubled) +1 (weapon enchant.) Rolling that many dice will probably make your DM throw something at you, so I don't recommend it if he's squeamish. :)

If your goal is more defense than damage, have you also considered the Warder? A friend in my campaign is playing one and he loves it. I put out more raw damage but he has a lot of options, debuffs, AOOs, and tricks to protect the party and keep the bad guys away from the squishy casters. It feels like my Zealot is juggling a lot more abilities while his Warder is focused on poking people with a stick and bashing them with a shield.

[Castilonium]

Glad to hear you like my guide so much and have found it helpful And JonathanPDX, glad you're having a good time with your Zealot build!

applied_people, since you want to be safe about not having your GM ban 3pp, you may want to consider being a different race than Half-Giant. From a GM's perspective, all Powerful Build does is increase your damage by a huge amount, and a lot of GMs get spooked by big damage on support characters. Try a race that can get a bonus to charisma, as that will increase your power points, save DCs, and intimidate check. Half-orc is a great choice for +2 intimidate and a luck bonus to saves, and Maenad can get +2 strength almost for free and is proficient with the Flying Blade (a great twohanded AoO weapon) and the Scorpion Whip (Letting you use the Reach + Shield fighting style at level 1 without having to take Pikeman Training). In short, pick a race that does less raw damage and has more support options.

Discipline Focus (Sleeping Goddess) is better than (Eternal Guardian) because it has more and better disabling strikes. You're level 5, so your go-to strike is Chains of Doubt. Or maybe I misunderstood and you're starting at level 1. Whatever the case, you can use retraining to fix the feat. You'd even be safe dropping it altogether and get Enforcer as your level 1 feat, so that you'll free up a conviction and be able to take the amazing Improved Path of Dedication at level 10 rather than 12, and and Impulsive Reflexes at level 2 rather than 3.

You have a very good AoO Zealot build, but it's going to be fairly complex to play. It looks like you're aiming for Chronal Fission at level 9, so at that point, you'll have to constantly manage Martyrdom, 2 counters, and Living Bastion. If you want something that's simpler and less feat-intensive, try an Archery Zealot with the Destruction mission and get Tempest Gale. You won't have to worry about positioning as much, and you can use your mission to proactively help your allies take out key enemies rather than have another reactive ability thing to manage. You can also debuff or lockdown multiple enemies at once with Storm of Steel. The Phoenix Champion prestige class gives you Phoenix Wing Strike, an incredibly easy-to-use and powerful strike with versatile effects. Make sure you know at least one Silver Crane maneuver to get the most value out of it.

[applied_people]

Rolling that many dice will probably make your DM throw something at you, so I don't recommend it if he's squeamish. :)

If your goal is more defense than damage, have you also considered the Warder? A friend in my campaign is playing one and he loves it. I put out more raw damage but he has a lot of options, debuffs, AOOs, and tricks to protect the party and keep the bad guys away from the squishy casters. It feels like my Zealot is juggling a lot more abilities while his Warder is focused on poking people with a stick and bashing them with a shield.

Thanks for your insights, JonathanPDX!

I'm currently playing an Beastmorph Alchemist and the other players already grumble a bit about his damage output and extremely high survivability. The DM understands that I'm more experienced and like to put together strong builds; so it hasn't been too much of an issue on his end. BUT, since I'm planning to bring 3PP to the table, I'd rather take on a different role that helps the rest of my group shine. I think that will keep everyone at the table happy with the addition and will hopefully result in others trying out Path of War or Psionics or whatever.

Regarding Warder, yes! I've definitely considered it...and frankly, I am still considering it. Mainly because it seems like a bit less to juggle than the Zealot and it's only introducing 1 new system rather than 2. Where I have not yet spent a lot of time looking is at the Warlord. Is that worth a glance, in your opinion?

[upho]

Post moved from Castilonium's zealot guide thread:

Hullo applied_people! (Hey, are you some kind of awesome evolved hive mind collective? ) Nice to hear you like Castilonium's great guide and his zealous corner of the Playground, so do I.

Regarding your build:

Considerations

I think your considerations seem very wise. A few related recommendations:

I already optimize the most in our group and can tend to overshadow the other players. For that reason, I want this character to be focused on a protection/control tanking style vs. a damage dealing style.

As you're probably aware, even at quite moderate optimization levels, a defender/control style zealot is often able to contribute more in combat than the typical damage dealing style Paizo martial classes, especially in higher levels. So I'd still be careful not to end up with a character that is actually OP for the game, despite the low damage combat style. However, reading between the lines of what you wrote, I suspect the guys in your group would be much more likely to frown upon the one-shot potential of say a barbarian übercharger than of the defender and buffing power of an equally optimized zealot, even should more than half of the barb's actual damage output in reality be generated by the zealot.

If I'm correct, I think your build outline so far seems to be pretty well aligned with this consideration.

While I consider myself a reasonably experienced player, there feels like a lot of built in complexity in this class (with great potential for it to get even more complex). So for this 'starter' zealot, I'd like to keep things pretty simple in the hopes that this will allow me to have a good handle on my character and his abilities and not slow down play at the table. Again...I fear the ban hammer.

Yes, zealots unfortunately tend to be quite difficult to build and especially to play due to the many options and moving parts IME. But provided the game doesn't start at an unusually high level or have you advance very quickly, I think you'll have no problems learning how to use your abilities without slowing things down well before you get any new and unfamiliar stuff to consider. That said, I also really recommend you first try out new things in practice by yourself to get a feel for them and how they mesh with the mechanics you already know, before using them in-game for the first time.

Build Outline

Looks fine overall. A few comments/questions:
Str 17/Cha 16 - How are you going to prioritize increases to these? Especially in a low/modest op game, I think it's fully possible to focus more on Cha, although I believe you'll still risk becoming dependent on attack-boosting stuff in mid/high levels when facing more challenging foes. I suggest you simply keep your Str high enough to give you a reasonable chance (say at least 75%) to hit your "typical" opponent's AC with your highest bab attacks, and otherwise prioritize Cha.

5F: Bodyguard - A good choice, just remember that this requires you to be adjacent to the ally (regardless of your typically melee reach of 20'+), and if you apply the Aid Another bonus to your ally's attacks, it won't get your zeal bonus.

6C: Psionic Conviction --> Unlocked Talent (Minor Metamorphosis) - Considering your small pool of PP and that you'll only be able to manifest this at ML 1, I'd consider substituting this by giving an ally caster a cheap wand of enlarge person to poke you with before combat during early levels, and then to invest in UMD for a total of +19 and get a dorjes of (minor) metamorphosis, if possible. 50 uses of ML 5 minor metamorphosis, augmented with 4 PP (a total of 3 options from the power's lists) has a market price of only 3,750 gp, and 50 uses of a very powerful ML 7 metamorphosis is likewise relatively cheap (20,250 gp) in higher levels. (Or retrain Unlocked Talent as soon as you can get your UMD high enough if no ally can use a wand of enlarge person.)

7F: Pikeman's Training - Due to your Powerful Build trait, this feat won't give you anything except the potential to increase your weapons' damage die size (you can already wield a Medium size horsechopper and a shield without any penalties).

15F: Advanced Study / 16C: Combat Conviction --> Advanced Study - Taking this twice in a row is a bit redundant IMO, especially if retraining isn't banned for some reason.

TL/DR I'd consider replacing Unlocked Talent and one Advanced Study, and most certainly the quite pointless Pikeman's Training, with something more interesting. Perhaps something to boost the control/debuff power of your AoOs and/or strikes a bit, or maybe a discipline style feat chain? And as I believe your build will probably be more than sufficient in your game even without filling these three feat slots with more mechanically useful combat stuff, you may want to look into options that could be interesting from a pure flavor perspective instead.

Addendum: I also agree with what Castilonium wrote, with one potential exception:

From a GM's perspective, all Powerful Build does is increase your damage by a huge amount, and a lot of GMs get spooked by big damage on support characters.

While I absolutely agree about not boosting damage, I have to say that in this case I believe Powerful Build won't actually have that much effect on damage. (As Power Attack isn't involved, it will only allow for wielding a weapon with a larger base damage die size and a 1.5 x Str bonus to damage, for an average increase of about +5 per attack while using enlarge person or similar for a total damage of 2d8+11 at 10th level (assuming Str 22 and a +2 weapon). As a comparison, an attack from a similarly enlarged human barb or bloodrager swinging a greataxe with Power Attack would typically deal at least 3d6+25 at this level, and likely more times per round.)

For support/control defender builds like this, I also believe the greatest benefits of Powerful Build has nothing to do with the increased damage potential. Instead, I think it's primarily the ability to wield a martial reach weapon and a heavy shield without weapon size penalties or the need for further investments (like Pikeman's Training and/or Exotic Weapon Proficiency etc). Secondarily, it's the improved defenses against most size-dependent abilities, thanks to being treated as one size category larger. In effect, while you're Large size (enlarge person or similar), the attacker also has to be at the very least Large in order to use most combat maneuvers against you, or Huge or even Colossal in the case of many common monster abilities like swallow whole, grab, trample etc. And conversely, being treated as larger will of course also increase the number of foes which you can use your own size dependent abilities against, and your chances of successfully doing so. Hence why I think Mighty Frame is typically a more worthwhile feat than Pikeman's Training even for control style defenders who don't really give a crap about damage, and even when it requires a trait.

@ applied_people If these benefits risk making your character - or having it perceived as - too powerful for the game, the half-giant is of course still a poor choice. However, if you'd like to keep the half-giant but fear Powerful Build will boost your damage numbers too high, I recommend you simply do some light self-nerfing and treat your Medium size horsechopper as a 1-handed weapon in all respects while wielding it in one hand (1 x Str to damage etc).

[applied_people]

Thanks for the reply, Castilonium! To answer a general question, we haven't started the campaign but I expect to start at level 1. And if you don't mind, I have a few follow up questions that were sparked by your response!

applied_people, since you want to be safe about not having your GM ban 3pp, you may want to consider being a different race than Half-Giant...In short, pick a race that does less raw damage and has more support options.

I had considered this very point. I looked at the Bloodforge Grendle...oof. Their Intimidation abilities are frighteningly OP. Then I looked at the Half-Orc, but I got scared off because I would need to take Wild Talent to get Unlocked Talent. So then, I was thinking that I might just stick with the Half-Giant but go sword-and-board with a longsword (and no Power Attack); so that his damage would be less. What do you think of that?

Or if I did go Half-Orc, would you still advise investing the feats to get Unlocked Talent? If so, where would you place them in the build? Finally, there's the Maenad. I'm interested because they have fun flavor, are naturally psionic, and with the scorpion whip can use the reach + shield style from the start. But isn't there a drawback to the scorpion whip? I think I remember something from either your guide or the discussion. And after reading the description of both the whip and scorpion whip, I don't think I understand the mechanics of either one very well.

Discipline Focus (Sleeping Goddess) is better than (Eternal Guardian) because it has more and better disabling strikes. You'd even be safe dropping it altogether and get Enforcer as your level 1 feat, so that you'll free up a conviction and be able to take the amazing Improved Path of Dedication at level 10 rather than 12, and and Impulsive Reflexes at level 2 rather than 3.

I like your suggestion to take Enforcer at 1 and Impulsive Reflexes at 2. But are you saying that Discipline Focus is not really needed for my build or is overkill? I want to trigger my riders as much as I can, but if I'm going from an 85% success rate to a 95% success rate, then I'd agree that my feat is probably better spent elsewhere.

You have a very good AoO Zealot build, but it's going to be fairly complex to play. It looks like you're aiming for Chronal Fission at level 9, so at that point, you'll have to constantly manage Martyrdom, 2 counters, and Living Bastion.

I hope that by level 9 the learning curve will have flattened out enough that I can keep up with all those things and not slow down play. I'm pretty good about planning out each of my actions before it's my turn and keeping things moving at the table. I like to keep my turns tight; so I'm also willing to miss opportunities/not use each and every ability at my disposal sometimes.

If you want something that's simpler and less feat-intensive, try an Archery Zealot with the Destruction mission and get Tempest Gale.

I did think a bit about dipping Privateer Desperado to have some fun with ranged Dirty Trick. I'm not sure this would do much for satisfying my ease of play requirement though. But, oh man, does that variation sound fun! On the other hand, I have an aversion to archers. I think it has something to do with a ranger who played in my very first campaign and went by the oh-so-funnylame name of Avon Fingerb*ng. ::facepalm:: So no archers for me.

[Castilonium]

Unlocked Talent (Minor Metamorphosis) is great because of the versatility it offers. It looks like you're just going to use it for size-increases, though. Upho gave good advice, you don't need to spend a feat/conviction picking it up and instead can get a wand of enlarge person, dorje of minor metamorphosis, dorje of metamorphosis, or even just potions of enlarge person (just 50 gp a pop). They all have a very good return on investment for a reach control character. So if you're foregoing Unlocked Talent, feel free to be a half-orc with a reach weapon.

The scorpion whip is weird, but here's how it works. If you're only proficient with a scorpion whip, then it's just a light reach weapon. It threatens at the same range any other reach weapon, and can't attack inside your reach deadzone. You can't strike out to 15 feet with it. HOWEVER! If you're proficient with both a regular whip and scorpion whip, then you can also strike out to 15 feet, and also strike inside your reach deadzone. Being proficient with both gives you the best of three worlds: Reach + Shield combat style, extra range for initiating strikes, and don't have to worry about your reach deadzone. You'll still need armor spikes (or Improved Whip Mastery) in order to use AoOs inside your deadzone, though. It's a very good weapon for support and defense, but obviously not great for damage.

Discipline Focus is more of a luxury. It's not crucial to bringing your playstyle to life. It just makes you 10% more likely to lockdown a given enemy with a strike. Use your feats and convictions to improve your capabilities and utility before using them to numberstack.

The complexity will increase as you level up. You'll just have your immediate/swift action to manage at level 1, but you'll get Martyrdom and more AoOs at 2, Mission and Echoes of Steel at 4, Chronal Fission at 9, Improved Path of Dedication at 10, Overpowering Optimism at 11, Martyrdom on every single collective member at 12, and maybe even God of the Hourglass Stance at 15. I think you'll be able to handle it since you seem like a mindful and easygoing person. In my experience, the most difficult thing to remember is Echoes of Steel. An easy solution is to echo ally-buffing boosts and laser beam maneuvers onto your psicrystal. Flickering Defense (Riven Hourglass 3) is perfect for that, since it's a counter that doesn't involve and checks or saves.

If you don't like bows, you can go with guns instead! The Sea Training privateer ploy lets you use a heavy shield and pistol, and reload as a free action. You can choose other ploys, but you'll need to use a buckler instead of a heavy shield, and spend a full round action to reload every 3 shots, the capacity of a Dragoon Pistol. If combats are short, 3 shots will be plenty. You can have two backup shots in the form of a Tube Arrow Shooter on each arm. And there's always Robe of Needles for extra backup.

Also, a note on Warders. They don't have anywhere near as many tools for protecting teammates as Zealots do. They're tough themselves, and make teammates hard to hit with aegis and armiger's mark, and can use Extended Defenses a few times per day, but that is the absolute extent of their class features as far as supporting allies goes. Their main schtick is to AoO enemies to death with their Zone of Nope, and to do that, they want to stack their AoO damage as high as possible to be a big threat. Simpler than a Zealot, yes, but that's not the playstyle you're looking for.

[applied_people]

Hey, are you some kind of awesome evolved hive mind collective?

Lordy, don't I wish! Life would be so much simpler. Most of the time, I feel like I'm in the middle of an ocean, chained to the various members of my nuclear family, and each of us is swimming as hard as we can in separate directions.

Nice to hear you like Castilonium's great guide and his zealous corner of the Playground, so do I.

Your affection for that 'zealous corner' shows! Thanks for all the time and thought you have invested there. I'm delighted you took some time to offer your thoughts here too.

Now on to your comments!

I suspect the guys in your group would be much more likely to frown upon the one-shot potential of say a barbarian übercharger than of the defender and buffing power of an equally optimized zealot, even should more than half of the barb's actual damage output in reality be generated by the zealot.

Yes, I think so too.

provided the game doesn't start at an unusually high level or have you advance very quickly, I think you'll have no problems learning how to use your abilities without slowing things down well before you get any new and unfamiliar stuff to consider. That said, I also really recommend you first try out new things in practice by yourself to get a feel for them

Regarding the learning curve, I'm in agreement. We tend to start at level 1 and move at a fairly leisurely pace; so I think I'll be able to keep up. But I am definitely taking your advice to practice on my own to heart. I'm currently playing a level 18 beastmorph alchemist with a surprising (to me at least) number of things to be mindful of for his immediate, swift, move and standard actions. I have combat flow notes that I always keep handy to help me keep things straight (and to remind me about some of the cool stuff I can do!).

Looks fine overall. A few comments/questions:
Str 17/Cha 16 - How are you going to prioritize increases to these? Especially in a low/modest op game, I think it's fully possible to focus more on Cha, although I believe you'll still risk becoming dependent on attack-boosting stuff in mid/high levels when facing more challenging foes. I suggest you simply keep your Str high enough to give you a reasonable chance (say at least 75%) to hit your "typical" opponent's AC with your highest bab attacks, and otherwise prioritize Cha.

I'm struggling here, to be honest. If I stay Half-Giant, I could go 16, 10, 12, 8, 10, 18. But should I drop my CON that low to get my CHA bonus to +4? Even with my STR at 16, I'm still only a +6 to hit at level 1 even when Encouraging Roar is up (65% chance to hit vs. CR 1 median AC of 14).

5F: Bodyguard - A good choice, just remember that this requires you to be adjacent to the ally (regardless of your typically melee reach of 20'+), and if you apply the Aid Another bonus to your ally's attacks, it won't get your zeal bonus.

Good reminder on the adjacency requirement. With the Commitment class feature, it would be easy to overlook that.

6C: Psionic Conviction --> Unlocked Talent (Minor Metamorphosis) - Considering your small pool of PP and that you'll only be able to manifest this at ML 1, I'd consider substituting this by giving an ally caster a cheap wand of enlarge person to poke you with before combat during early levels, and then to invest in UMD for a total of +19 and get a dorjes of (minor) metamorphosis, if possible. 50 uses of ML 5 minor metamorphosis, augmented with 4 PP (a total of 3 options from the power's lists) has a market price of only 3,750 gp, and 50 uses of a very powerful ML 7 metamorphosis is likewise relatively cheap (20,250 gp) in higher levels. (Or retrain Unlocked Talent as soon as you can get your UMD high enough if no ally can use a wand of enlarge person.)

Admittedly, I had overlooked the ML1 cap on this feat. I can see how being able to manifest this 4 or 5 times per day at low levels could be very versatile and powerful. But never being able to spend more than 1PP is definitely limiting. I'll need to think more about if and where this belongs in my build.

7F: Pikeman's Training - Due to your Powerful Build trait, this feat won't give you anything except the potential to increase your weapons' damage die size (you can already wield a Medium size horsechopper and a shield without any penalties).

Seems like there is something I don't know about either Powerful Build or using weapons that are smaller than what you are normally allowed to wield without penalty or both. When I look at my copy of Ultimate Psionics, I don't see a provision of Powerful Build that allows for what you are suggesting. Are there rules here that you can point me to?

At any rate, what I think you are saying is that a Medium-sized PC with Powerful Build/Mighty Frame can wield a Medium-sized two-handed weapon in one hand. And thus, be able to wield a Medium-sized reach weapon in one hand and a shield in the other with no penalties. Is that right? Seems like that's what you are stating here and below.

15F: Advanced Study / 16C: Combat Conviction --> Advanced Study - Taking this twice in a row is a bit redundant IMO, especially if retraining isn't banned for some reason.

At that point, I was running out of steam and wasn't sure where to go. My knowledge of disciplines isn't deep enough yet for me to know at which points in my build I'm really going to want access to more maneuvers.

And as I believe your build will probably be more than sufficient in your game even without filling these three feat slots with more mechanically useful combat stuff, you may want to look into options that could be interesting from a pure flavor perspective instead.

I think this would be a fun and rewarding avenue to explore.

While I absolutely agree about not boosting damage, I have to say that in this case I believe Powerful Build won't actually have that much effect on damage.

Perhaps at low levels the slightly elevated damage would be noticeable. But to your point(s) on this topic, I know that there will be 1 or 2 heavy hitters in the group that should quickly draw any short-lived scrutiny away from this issue. And if need be, I can take your final suggestion and self-nerf.

For support/control defender builds like this, I also believe the greatest benefits of Powerful Build has nothing to do with the increased damage potential. Instead, I think it's primarily the ability to wield a martial reach weapon and a heavy shield without weapon size penalties or the need for further investments (like Pikeman's Training and/or Exotic Weapon Proficiency etc). Secondarily, it's the improved defenses against most size-dependent abilities, thanks to being treated as one size category larger. In effect, while you're Large size (enlarge person or similar), the attacker also has to be at the very least Large in order to use most combat maneuvers against you, or Huge or even Colossal in the case of many common monster abilities like swallow whole, grab, trample etc. And conversely, being treated as larger will of course also increase the number of foes which you can use your own size dependent abilities against, and your chances of successfully doing so. Hence why I think Mighty Frame is typically a more worthwhile feat than Pikeman's Training even for control style defenders who don't really give a crap about damage, and even when it requires a trait.

All of these reasons make a lot of sense to me. And I'd like to play the Half-Giant, but if in the end, I decide to go Half-Orc, what would make sense weapon-wise? Even with the Half-Giant, I'm struggling a bit here. Do I just keep the Horsechopper, take Weapon Group Adaptation, and call it a day?

And two final questions. Should I be considering Martial Power? I worry about the to-hit penalties. And are the advanced Psicrystal feats something I could do without and not suffer overly? It actually seems like it might make Psionic Focus a more interesting resource to manage if I have to sacrifice more to regain it.

[upho]

Lordy, don't I wish! Life would be so much simpler. Most of the time, I feel like I'm in the middle of an ocean, chained to the various members of my nuclear family, and each of us is swimming as hard as we can in separate directions.

Heh, I'd guess that if my friends with nuclear families read this they'd say: "Exactly! This guy gets it. And... Uh... Well, you sure he said he doesn't know how to create a psionic colliective?"

Seems like there is something I don't know about either Powerful Build or using weapons that are smaller than what you are normally allowed to wield without penalty or both. When I look at my copy of Ultimate Psionics, I don't see a provision of Powerful Build that allows for what you are suggesting. Are there rules here that you can point me to?

At any rate, what I think you are saying is that a Medium-sized PC with Powerful Build/Mighty Frame can wield a Medium-sized two-handed weapon in one hand. And thus, be able to wield a Medium-sized reach weapon in one hand and a shield in the other with no penalties. Is that right? Seems like that's what you are stating here and below.

(Replying to this first, since it's relevant to other things below.)

Ooops! I managed to sneak in what is actually a minor house rule used in my games, forgetting that strictly according to RAW, Powerful Build doesn't allow you to wield weapons as if you were one size category larger, just to wield "weapons designed for a creature one size larger". So no 2-handed Medium weapons in one hand. Sorry!

Unless your GM also find it reasonable that Powerful Build allows for this, I really think you should go with a maenad or horc (and keep Pikeman's Training) instead of the half-giant. But I also think you should ask before you give up on the half-giant completely, and perhaps suggest you treat the 2-handed weapon as 1-handed, meaning it basically amounts to giving you a more flexible version Pikeman's Training and won't increase your damage.

I'm struggling here, to be honest. If I stay Half-Giant, I could go 16, 10, 12, 8, 10, 18. But should I drop my CON that low to get my CHA bonus to +4? Even with my STR at 16, I'm still only a +6 to hit at level 1 even when Encouraging Roar is up (65% chance to hit vs. CR 1 median AC of 14).

First off, my previous comment on this was a bit lacking, sorry 'bout that. What I was trying to say is that in most games I believe the relative costs to maintain a full bab class' standard attack accuracy vs a typical monster of CR = level actually tends to decrease quite rapidly after the first four or five levels or so, while a lacking hit probability is of course going to become increasingly problematic if ignored.

Spoiler: 75% Hit Chance Benchmark in Detail

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For example, a 1st level PC of a full bab class without native accuracy boosts would need to start with Str 18 and say Weapon Focus in order to have a 75% hit chance vs the "average" AC 12 of a CR 1 monster. At 6th level, the same guy would also need for example a +1 weapon and a +2 Str belt - quite significant investments at this level - to still have a 75% hit chance vs the average AC 19 of a CR 6 foe. But at 11th, he could get away with buying for example a dirt cheap cracked Pale Green Prism ioun for 4k to maintain his relative hit chance, even though his Strength score remains 20 and he doesn't gain any other new boost beyond his increased bab. And likewise at 16th level, he would only need to add another +1 - which he most likely can get for mere pocket change at this level - in order to still have a 75% hit chance vs the average AC 31 of a CR 16 monster.

This general development of decreasing relative costs to maintain relative hit chance is of course often even more noticeable in reality, as bonuses from class features, feats and temporary accuracy buffs (spells, maneuvers etc) also tend to become increasingly significant, numerous and frequent. Also, my "75% hit chance benchmark" refers to the actual typical hit chance when in the character is in combat, including any temporary buffs that can be expected to be in effect during a large majority of combat rounds. So for example, in most combats in many games/parties, I can expect an arcane caster to hit my martial character with haste as soon as they're able to. Meaning I usually include the +1 from haste when calculating my expected typical minimum hit chance from 7th level or so. And I do the same from 1st level when it comes to stuff like an allied bard's Inspire Courage, an allied skald's Raging Song, and any bonuses from a stance I'm likely to use by default etc.

So very generally speaking, I believe that for a build which starts at 1st and has a high priority stat besides the attack stat, but which will virtually always attack at full bab and won't use stuff with attack penalties, it's a good idea to initially give the attack stat the highest priority, and then to primarily focus on the other important stat once you're past the first levels and your hit chance is sufficiently high. And of course, the initial attack stat score can be reduced as long as the lost accuracy can be compensated for with other (practically) permanent attack boosts.

As Castilonium wrote, being a maenad or a horc also have great perks. With these races, I'd probably go 16, 10, 14, 8, 10, 16, putting the racial bonus in Str or Cha, and then put all level increases in Cha and prioritize item boosts to Cha as long as my hit chance can be expected to remain at 75% or more vs a monster of a CR equal to my level. In the case of the maenad, I'd rely on the Outburst ability to increase my hit chances when needed, and I'd likely try to take a leak COWPIS in a Wayfinder as soon as possible, giving me Weapon Focus for a total market price of only 2k. As a horc, I'd probably also need to prioritize attack boosts even higher initially. I'd likely first look for that in 1st level stances which remain useful later on, like Obsidian Reflection Stance, so I don't have to wait for magic item bonuses.

As a zealot with an AoO/reach focused combat style, I believe it's better to not use Dex as your attack stat, since it will conflict with the size penalties of size increases, limit weapon choices and require one or more early level feat slots which you want for other stuff. So I believe the above two races are the top choices for the kind of zealot you seem to be aiming for. Which of these you decide to go with is primarily a matter of taste IMO, although I think I would personally would lean towards the horc due to its improved saves and darkvision.

If using the stat array I mentioned above, here's my simplified summary of the most relevant advantages of each race for this kind of zealot (note that these aren't necessarily of equal relative importance):

Maenad Outburst to improve Str when most needed, free proficiency with some good exotic weapon choices, free Wild Talent.

Horc +1 luck to all saves (or +2 with Fate's Favored), +2 Intimidate, darkvision.

At that point, I was running out of steam and wasn't sure where to go. My knowledge of disciplines isn't deep enough yet for me to know at which points in my build I'm really going to want access to more maneuvers.

I think it would be best to simply leave these feat slots open for now, plan the rest of your build and allow yourself to get more familiar with maneuvers and the zealot before deciding.

And two final questions. Should I be considering Martial Power? I worry about the to-hit penalties.

I suggest you wait with Martial Power until you have a better feel for how useful it would be and how difficult it will be for you to compensate for the attack penalty, as this will probably also be dependent on the abilities and tactics of other party members.

And are the advanced Psicrystal feats something I could do without and not suffer overly? It actually seems like it might make Psionic Focus a more interesting resource to manage if I have to sacrifice more to regain it.

Yes, but on the other hand, you'll have more than enough complex mechanics to manage during combat. So I think it seems like a good idea to invest in basically not having to worry about your focus.

[applied_people]

Thanks again, Castilonium and Upho for your advice! It's been a great help so far. At this point, I'm still building and tweaking, but I had a quick question that you both probably know the answer to.

Does the Horc alternate racial trait "Chain Fighter":

A) grant proficiency with ALL flails and heavy flails (including those behind the Exotic gate) or
B) does it grant proficiency with all non-Exotic flails and heavy flails and then reduces the proficiency threshold for spiked chains and dire flails from Exotic to Martial?

Up until now, I've been reading it as B.

Looking at the Maenad's Weapon Familiarity racial trait, the language is similar to Chain Fighter. It reads:

Maenads are proficient with flails. Maenads treat any weapon with the word “maenad” in the name as a martial weapon rather than an exotic one.

Based upon some of the recommendations and language in your guide, @Castilonium, I get the sense that you interpret it as A. Is that right? Is there a rule/ing somewhere that I'm unaware of that should steer me toward interpretation A?

If A, is an acceptable interpretation, then a Horc could also begin play with scorpion whip proficiency. And flailpole proficiency for that matter.

[applied_people]

So thanks again Upho and Castilonium for your advice to date! Here's where I've ended up through Level 11. I'm sure I'll tweak the build based upon the particular campaign our DM selects, the group makeup, etc. But I think the bones are in place.

Introducing Felix Pickleweed! A former reformed marauder who once served under the Dread Captain Alexandra. Known by another name in his pirating privateering days, Felix was lost at sea during a particularly vicious boarding. By chance, he washed ashore near a small Halfling settlement in Qadira, and for no reason that Felix understood, then or now, they tended his wounds and gave him food and quarter.

More importantly though, they taught him their ways and their love of Sarenrae. After half a decade among his adopted community, Felix emerged a new man with a new name. He has decided to set back out into the world, having pledged to himself and to his goddess to protect those who need protecting, to stand for those who cannot stand for themselves, and to extend Sarenrae's mercy as often as he can, even to those who deserve far worse.

With an Intimidating and fearsome mien, a hard-earned and shameless talent for fighting Dirty, a fanatical desire to Aid those in his charge, and a bevy of martial expertise at his disposal, Felix is a worthy if unlikely servant of the Dawnflower.

Spoiler: Felix Pickleweed, Half-Orc Warlord Privateer 1 / Zealot X

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Starting Stats (20 PB): Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 16

Alternate Racial Traits: Sacred Tattoo
Traits: Practiced Initiator, Community-Minded, Blade of Mercy, Adopted (Helpful), Fools for Friends
Flaw: Unlearned

Martial Tradition: Lords of the Wheel
Weapon of Choice: Horsechopper

Feats & Gambits/Ploys/Convictions
Level 1: Warlord (Privateer) 1. Enforcer, Additional Traits; Dastardly Gambit, Salt in the Wound
Level 3: Zealot 2. Pikeman’s Training; Impulsive Reactions
Level 5: Zealot 4. Psionic Meditation; Personality Fragment (Bully)
Level 7: Zealot 6. Psicrystal Containment; Psionic Conviction: Psicrystal Reservoir
Level 9: Zealot 8. Weapon Group Adaptation (Polearms); Path of Dedication
Level 11: Zealot 10. Dirty Trick Master; Path of Dedication, Improved

Stances & Maneuvers
Level 1: Warlord (Privateer) 1. Phalanx Lancer; Encouraging Roar, Pride Movement, Clockwatcher, Hunting Party, Piercing Strike, & Tactical Strike
Level 2: Zealot 1. Vigilant Keeper's Stance; Minute Hand, Guard's Oath, Harmony Shattering Strike, Strike of the Hourglass, Terrifying Blow
Level 3: Zealot 2. Unbroken Stride; Flash of Insight
Level 4: Zealot 3.Fear the Reaper (replacing Guard's Oath), Relentless Warden's Strike
Level 6: Zealot 5. Riven Hourglass Stance; Chains of Doubt (replacing Harmony Shattering Strike), Defending the Pride
Level 8: Zealot 7. Armory of the Sleeping Goddess (replacing Minute Hand), Grim Guard's Laughter
Level 10: Zealot 9. Chronal Fission or Inarguable Presence; Relativity Burst (replacing Flash of Insight), Gift of Time/Reunion in Dreams
Level 12: Zealot 11. Chronal Fission/Inarguable Presence/Unavoidable Gaze; Overpowering Optimism (replacing Terrifying Blow), Harry the Prey/Shatter the Hourglass/Strike of Transfixed Awe

[Castilonium]

It seems that the maenad's weapon familiarity could be read as only granting proficiency solely with flails, the onehanded martial weapon that's worse than a longsword. I really hope that isn't the case. But as for Chain Fighter for half-orcs, the intent seems much more clear that it only works with the specific weapons listed, not all weapons in the flail weapon group. Interpretation B of yours. They wouldn't have listed specific weapons if that racial trait would give half-orcs proficiency with all flails.

Now I'm sad, though. If maenads aren't actually proficient with all flails, that makes them a lot worse. I'm just going to shove my head in the ground like an ostrich and hope nobody else notices this.

Your build looks good, and you have everything you need to be an extremely powerful controller and support character. But I'd be leery about getting Dirty Trick Master at level 11. The inescapable lockdown is pretty ludicrously powerful, especially stacked on top of one of your disabling strikes. But at least you didn't combine it with Seize the Opportunity, so you'll only be doing it once per round at most, so it shouldn't be too terrifying for the GM.

Another thing to be leery of is Community-Minded + Defending the Pride. It effectively means your entire party has +4 AC almost permanently, a rather boring and undynamic form of numberstacking. If your party ends up being untouchable, your GM might feel compelled to stretch combat lengths, or simply increase the attack bonuses of your enemies. And when that happens, you'll be even more strapped for swift actions because you'll need to keep up Defending the Pride as much as possible to compensate.

[upho]

So thanks again Upho and Castilonium for your advice to date! Here's where I've ended up through Level 11.

Felix Pickleweed looks great! His background is interesting and should provide your GM with plenty of plot hooks if he wants to make things more personal. And having Castilonium's Alexandra "guest starring" as his old pirate captain is brilliant! Has me singing "What shall we do with the drunken half-orc? Hoorah! And up she rises!"

A few comments and questions on some of the build details (in red):

Spoiler: Felix Pickleweed, Half-Orc Warlord Privateer 1 / Zealot X

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Traits: Practiced Initiator, Community-Minded, Blade of Mercy, Adopted (Helpful), Fools for Friends Whoa, Felix's Aid Another is gonna rock. Hard. And Community-Minded might just rock too hard when combined with some of Felix's maneuvers (like Defending the Pride).
Flaw: Unlearned Seems fitting. (Although Knowledge skills would most likely have been one of his greatest weaknesses anyway.)

Martial Tradition: Lords of the Wheel Just a reminder: the described traditions are to be treated as suggestions only, and whether they exist in your game and their specifics is completely up to your DM to decide. So unless you've already talked to your DM about this and know the Lords of the Wheel exists in the setting, I suggest you do so before planning build choices dependent on access to Riven Hourglass.

Level 11: Zealot 10. Dirty Trick Master; Path of Dedication, Improved Careful! Even though Felix doesn't have Seize the Opportunity at this level (unless he gets it through a Training Weapon), Dirty Trick Master gives him tremendous lock-down power if used as written. Felix may very well become OP for your game if he only needs to make two successful dirty tricks to remove an enemy from combat. If you'd like to make the effects of DTM less devastating, I suggest you talk to your DM about using a minor house rule, allowing the target to remove the condition as a full-round action when/if the condition would normally prevent the target from taking the standard action otherwise required.

Level 1: Warlord (Privateer) 1. Phalanx Lancer; Encouraging Roar, Pride Movement, Clockwatcher, Hunting Party, Piercing Strike, & Tactical Strike As per the PoW errata, Felix can also swap one these maneuvers for one of higher level when his warlord IL reaches 4 and every even warlord IL thereafter. So at character level 7th, he should upgrade one of these to a 2nd level maneuver, and at 11th he should upgrade another one for a 3rd level maneuver.

EDIT: Ouch! At least half-stalker'd by Castilonium! /EDIT

[applied_people]

Now I'm sad, though. If maenads aren't actually proficient with all flails, that makes them a lot worse. I'm just going to shove my head in the ground like an ostrich and hope nobody else notices this.

<whistles as he walks right by the enormous headless bird attached to the ground>

Your build looks good, and you have everything you need to be an extremely powerful controller and support character. But I'd be leery about getting Dirty Trick Master at level 11. The inescapable lockdown is pretty ludicrously powerful, especially stacked on top of one of your disabling strikes. But at least you didn't combine it with Seize the Opportunity, so you'll only be doing it once per round at most, so it shouldn't be too terrifying for the GM.

Good point. Maybe I'll go a different direction at that juncture.

Another thing to be leery of is Community-Minded + Defending the Pride. It effectively means your entire party has +4 AC almost permanently, a rather boring and undynamic form of numberstacking.

Another good point. Usually the players at my table are in no danger of becoming untouchable even with +4 to AC, lol. But yes, I don't really want an arms race with the DM. Maybe I'll take Circling the Prey there instead. Much less likely to generate DM aggro...after all, it's just a tiny little 5' step!

[applied_people]

Felix Pickleweed looks great! His background is interesting and should provide your GM with plenty of plot hooks if he wants to make things more personal. And having Castilonium's Alexandra "guest starring" as his old pirate captain is brilliant! Has me singing "What shall we do with the drunken half-orc? Hoorah! And up she rises!"

Thanks! Glad you like him. The reference to Alexandra was my way of tipping my hat to the guide that made Felix who he is today!

Traits: Practiced Initiator, Community-Minded, Blade of Mercy, Adopted (Helpful), Fools for Friends Whoa, Felix's Aid Another is gonna rock. Hard. And Community-Minded might just rock too hard when combined with some of Felix's maneuvers (like Defending the Pride).

As you noted, Castilonium also mentioned this. I'll probably go with something less conspicuous like Circling the Prey.

unless you've already talked to your DM about this and know the Lords of the Wheel exists in the setting, I suggest you do so before planning build choices dependent on access to Riven Hourglass.

Shouldn't be an issue with my GM, but I'll take your advice!

Level 11: Zealot 10. Dirty Trick Master; Path of Dedication, Improved If you'd like to make the effects of DTM less devastating, I suggest you talk to your DM about using a minor house rule, allowing the target to remove the condition as a full-round action when/if the condition would normally prevent the target from taking the standard action otherwise required.

I like this solution. Assuming I still want to take DTM at that point in Felix's career, I'll offer this to my DM.

As per the PoW errata, Felix can also swap one these maneuvers for one of higher level when his warlord IL reaches 4 and every even warlord IL thereafter. So at character level 7th, he should upgrade one of these to a 2nd level maneuver, and at 11th he should upgrade another one for a 3rd level maneuver.

Thank you! I saw this in the errata but failed to put 2+2 together and realize that I could retrain my warlord maneuvers as well.

Thanks very much for the analysis and advice!