D&D 3.5 Wizard VS Classic Dr. Strange

[ColorBlindNinja]

I've heard a lot of people say that classic Dr. Strange is capable of taking a wizard in a fight. I admit my knowledge of comics is rather limited, so I thought I'd ask the playground for a consensus on this.

I had two scenarios in mind:

-Wizard at level 20.
- Wizard at level 40 (yeah, including epic spell casting).

Assume TO for the wizard, anything short of Pun Pun and literal godhood is acceptable (Ice Assassins of gods are fair game ).

I would encourage anyone who advocates for one side or the other to explain their reasoning for their conclusion.

[noob]

Wizard level 40 can create an infinitely negative dc spell and thus gain infinite level and infinite wealth and get infinitely far into the past.(he could already do that at level 21)
Now the thing is that both have a whole lot of random weird abilities(tons of manuals for the wizard and tons of comic books for dr strange) and that is very hard to compare.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wizard level 40 can create an infinitely negative dc spell and thus gain infinite level and infinite wealth and get infinitely far into the past.(he could already do that at level 21)
Now the thing is that both have a whole lot of random weird abilities(tons of manuals for the wizard and tons of comic books for dr strange) and that is very hard to compare.

Out of curiosity, how would you achieve infinite mitigation?

Aside from that, I think an epic Wizard could smite Dr. Strange from his demi-plane with an epic scrying spell.

[noob]

Make a spell that needs an infinity of level 9 slots sacrificed by allied casters since you do not need to pay the cost of casting for researching a spell.

Aside from that, I think an epic Wizard could smite Dr. Strange from his demi-plane with an epic scrying spell.

now read all the comics about dr strange there might be a spell for avoiding that in the comic.
anyway if the level 20 or 40 wizard was in the comic then dr strange would have the spell or solution to avoid that situation since he is a comic book wizard.
Basically a comic book character always have a solution and the dnd wizard always have tons of tools both are similar in the fact they solve most of the problems they meet.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Make a spell that needs an infinity of level 9 slots sacrificed by allied casters since you do not need to pay the cost of casting for researching a spell.

Interesting, I never heard of that before. Just another way for epic spellcasters to break the game in half, I suppose.

now read all the comics about dr strange there might be a spell for avoiding that in the comic.
anyway if the level 20 or 40 wizard was in the comic then dr strange would have the spell or solution to avoid that situation since he is a comic book wizard.
Basically a comic book character always have a solution and the dnd wizard always have tons of tools both are similar in the fact they solve most of the problems they meet.

I think what you're describing is more narrative convenience than anything else. I think reading all the comics is a bit much, however the spell that you cast in an epic scry can be just about anything (including epic spells). Doing that from your time accelerated demi plane is a nigh foolproof way of killing almost anything.

[Quertus]

Well, I suspect Wizard 20 could defeat Dr. Strange using nothing more than Simulacrum x NI of Dr. Strange.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, I suspect Wizard 20 could defeat Dr. Strange using nothing more than Simulacrum x NI of Dr. Strange.

Ice Assassin is basically a Simulacrum 2.0, being at full strength rather than half. There's no HD limit on Ice Assassin either.

[Psyren]

Well, I suspect Wizard 20 could defeat Dr. Strange using nothing more than Simulacrum x NI of Dr. Strange.

The issue though is that heroes like Strange and Flash aren't actually wizards, they're clerics. Meaning that their power source is ultimately something external to themselves with a will of its own. So you can clone Strange, but what you get wouldn't actually be the Sorcerer Supreme of this dimension, as only one entity can (usually) wear that title. What happens at that point would be up to the writer, but would probably involve any imposters no longer existing and Strange victorious.

Not saying you couldn't beat him - just not the typical TO way of throwing an Aleax or IA at him.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The issue though is that heroes like Strange and Flash aren't actually wizards, they're clerics. Meaning that their power source is ultimately something external to themselves with a will of its own. So you can clone Strange, but what you get wouldn't actually be the Sorcerer Supreme of this dimension, as only one entity can (usually) wear that title. What happens at that point would be up to the writer, but would probably involve any imposters no longer existing and Strange victorious.

Not saying you couldn't beat him - just not the typical TO way of throwing an Aleax or IA at him.

Would Ice Assassin work on a D&D Cleric? RAW I should think so. If it does work, would that be a sufficient precedent for it to create a full fledged copy of Dr. Strange?

It's hardly a huge deal if it doesn't; it's not as if D&D wizards are hurting for options.

[Inevitability]

Assuming there's comic-D&D magic transparency, I don't see why a wizard couldn't just drop an AMF (make it planet-wide at epic levels) and kill Strange using some of the ways to get around AMFs. Even in a straight-up fistfight the wizard might stand a reasonable chance: D&D characters are notoriously resilient after all.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Assuming there's comic-D&D magic transparency, I don't see why a wizard couldn't just drop an AMF (make it planet-wide at epic levels) and kill Strange using some of the ways to get around AMFs. Even in a straight-up fistfight the wizard might stand a reasonable chance: D&D characters are notoriously resilient after all.

- Without some sort of transparency, this match would be kinda pointless.

- I would use selective AMF for extra LOLZ. Unless Dr. Strange has some sort of ability to act Dead Magic Zones, this should work.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dweomer of Transference should make the Wizard immune to all of Strange's spells.

What kind of protections does Strange have.

[noob]

His cape is definitively a Cloaker monk/a bunch of prcs who have been enchanted(I mean look at how this cape attacks people it is surely a cloaker).

[The_Jette]

Dweomer of Transference should make the Wizard immune to all of Strange's spells.

What kind of protections does Strange have.

Well, his arsenal includes protective amulets gathered over millenia by previous Sorcerer Supremes, plus the ability to call on a few Gods for added protection. Also, Marvel doesn't really handle spells the same way that D&D does. Strange can protect himself from spells in general, not just low level spells. He protected himself, and a number of others, from a spell that altered all of reality during the M-Day event, which removed mutant powers from 98% of mutants. He regularly fights entities that encompass entire realities, and are essentially gods. Plus, his most common enemy is Mephisto, who is essentially the devil in the Marvel universe. Unfortunately, there's no Marvel/D&D comparison sheet that we can look to for classification. So, this question is going to come down to:
"Wizard does x"
"Strange wouldn't even be affected by x. And, he could do y."
"You obviously don't know how powerful x is or you wouldn't say that."
"Your argument is bad and you should feel bad."

[Psyren]

Would Ice Assassin work on a D&D Cleric? RAW I should think so. If it does work, would that be a sufficient precedent for it to create a full fledged copy of Dr. Strange?

You can copy a cleric just fine. But his deity can simply withhold all spells from the copy. It might even immediately fall.

It's hardly a huge deal if it doesn't; it's not as if D&D wizards are hurting for options.

That's basically what I said - it's not auto-loss, you'd just need some other strategy (for a change.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, his arsenal includes protective amulets gathered over millenia by previous Sorcerer Supremes, plus the ability to call on a few Gods for added protection. Also, Marvel doesn't really handle spells the same way that D&D does. Strange can protect himself from spells in general, not just low level spells.

Between Selective AMF and Dweomer of Transference, the wizard is virtually immune to magic too.

How is Dr. Strange's physical resistance? Also, I was under the impression that it takes some time for Strange to bind with some of his god friends. If that's the case how long would that take?

[Nifft]

Player: "Dungeon Master! I've come to bargain!"

DM: "Rocks fall. You die."

Player: "Okay, I make a new character just like the previous one. Dungeon Master! I've come to bargain!"

DM: "God damn it."

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can copy a cleric just fine. But his deity can simply withhold all spells from the copy. It might even immediately fall.

I'd say that falls under the DM's purview, as RAW is ambiguous.

That's basically what I said - it's not auto-loss, you'd just need some other strategy (for a change.)

Ice Assassin spam is kinda boring anyway.

[Florian]

Dr. Strange will always win. Why? he´s a narrative character that will always find a solution to anything, while the D&D Wizard is a rules construct where the player will sift thru available rules options to find a combo that will break the game. The former always wins, as it doesn´t have to care for the rules. Period.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dr. Strange will always win. Why? he´s a narrative character that will always find a solution to anything, while the D&D Wizard is a rules construct where the player will sift thru available rules options to find a combo that will break the game. The former always wins, as it doesn´t have to care for the rules. Period.

Again, that's narrative convenience.

I want to know if Strange can win with just his preexisting abilities.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Dr. Strange will always win. Why? he´s a narrative character that will always find a solution to anything, while the D&D Wizard is a rules construct where the player will sift thru available rules options to find a combo that will break the game. The former always wins, as it doesn´t have to care for the rules. Period.

That's not how Vs. works. We are suppose to compare the preexisting power and abilities of the characters and determine a victor. Claiming that a narrative character would always win against a rule construct doesn't make sense in a number of scenarios, like if there's a huge power gap between the two characters.

Additionally, Strange has lost fights before, so there's no reason to assume that he would beat the Wizard.

[INoKnowNames]

Rhetorical Question: Why is it that, on this forum in particular, the first thing people want to do when something gets popular is figure out how to kill it or stat it (typically so that it can be killed or used to kill)?

[noob]

Ice assassin out every entity from the marvel multiverse and then make those new entities help your ice assassin of doctor strange and also ice assassin the authors of dr strange and make them write a comic book of how your dr strange beat the non ice assassin dr strange?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ice assassin out every entity from the marvel multiverse and then make those new entities help your ice assassin of doctor strange and also ice assassin the authors of dr strange and make them write a comic book of how your dr strange beat the non ice assassin dr strange?

Waaaaay too convoluted.

You'd be better off just dominating the author and having them write a book where the wizard wins.

[Florian]

Again, that's narrative convenience.

I want to know if Strange can win with just his preexisting abilities.

Strange is pretty close to an PF Psychic when it comes to abilities. As this, he´s close to using the full rules based on Occult Adventures, something a regular arcane caster doesn´t have defenses against, especially when Psychic Duels and the Akashic come into it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Strange is pretty close to an PF Psychic when it comes to abilities. As this, he´s close to using the full rules based on Occult Adventures, something a regular arcane caster doesn´t have defenses against, especially when Psychic Duels and the Akashic come into it.

Wouldn't Mind Blank protect against a psychic duel?

I'm unfamiliar with Akashic, you'll have to elaborate.

Edit: I think you may be underestimating the sheer volume of immunities that wizards can have.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Strange is pretty close to an PF Psychic when it comes to abilities. As this, he´s close to using the full rules based on Occult Adventures, something a regular arcane caster doesn´t have defenses against, especially when Psychic Duels and the Akashic come into it.

Wouldn't Psychic abilities be classified as psionics? Because Dweomer of Transference makes you immune to psionics.

EDIT; Also an AMF should work just fine.

[Psyren]

I want to know if Strange can win with just his preexisting abilities.

His "pre-existing abilities" can literally be anything depending on the writer. More importantly, he has multiple artifacts in his possession that only work for him, which would allow him to ignore defenses like AMF and DoT.

[Florian]

Wouldn't Psychic abilities be classified as psionics? Because Dweomer of Transference makes you immune to psionics.

EDIT; Also an AMF should work just fine.

Missing the point. There´s no psionic-magic divide in PF, but there´re abilities that you can´t have a defense against, as those explicitly call out that nothing can prevent them, ever.

Edit: Psychic Duels are underrated, as is the ability to create Mindscapes with individual planar traits.

[Tainted_Scholar]

His "pre-existing abilities" can literally be anything depending on the writer.

No, his "pre-existing abilities" are abilities he's already been shown to have.

More importantly, he has multiple artifacts in his possession that only work for him, which would allow him to ignore defenses like AMF and DoT.

How?