D&D 3.5 Wizard VS Classic Dr. Strange

[Tainted_Scholar]

Who would qualify? And being immune to damage is trivial for both parties.

How is Strange going to make himself immune to Damage?

There are a ton of fates worse than death as any wizard would know. Dropping you off in the Far Realm without your powers for instance.

How is suppose to take away the Wizard's Powers?

On the fast time demiplane stuff: that tactic really only works if your foe is on the material themselves. Strange is constantly astral projecting (Astral is timeless, so no amount of time ratio will beat it),

That's the D&D Astral Plane though. Strange's Astral Projection works differently.

so no amount of time ratio will beat it), and even if he weren't, his sanctum is on multiple planes at once too, including several with fast time traits of their own.

Unless any of his sanctums have an infinitely faster time flow, I think the Wizard has the advantage, because every second in the normal planes is equal to an infinite years on her Demi-Plane.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah. Strange is powerful, but he's meant to be challenged and the readers are meant to believe he might fail.

D&D Wizards, at high TO... They're not like that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Who would qualify?

That's what Mind Rape is for, it can explicitly induce emotions.

There are a ton of fates worse than death as any wizard would know. Dropping you off in the Far Realm without your powers for instance.

How does Strange do that exactly?

Putting the obvious paradox aside, wouldn't that just erase the fact that you teleported through time?

Forced Dream is reality warping, your timeline never existed.

Every last one of these has holes and/or is dispellable.

You can make most of your buffs supernatural. What holes are you referring to?

On the fast time demiplane stuff: that tactic really only works if your foe is on the material themselves. Strange is constantly astral projecting (Astral is timeless, so no amount of time ratio will beat it), and even if he weren't, his sanctum is on multiple planes at once too, including several with fast time traits of their own.

Doesn't Strange leave his body vulnerable while he's astral projecting? As Tainted Scholar pointed out, the wizard's demi plane will probably be faster.

Can Strange attack across planes, and if so how does that work?

[Psyren]

How is Strange going to make himself immune to Damage?



How is suppose to take away the Wizard's Powers?

He can take the powers of gods through force of will. He rarely does this as it is considered taboo/black magic, but the option is there.

That's the D&D Astral Plane though. Strange's Astral Projection works differently.

You're having your cake and eating it again. If Strange's Astral is different and his Artifacts are different, his spells must be different too. There's no point to this discussion if every definition is "whichever one favors the wizard."

Unless any of his sanctums have an infinitely faster time flow, I think the Wizard has the advantage, because every second in the normal planes is equal to an infinite years on her Demi-Plane.

No time at all would count as "inifinitely fast."

That's what Mind Rape is for, it can explicitly induce emotions.

You would have to mindrape Strange himself to make him feel emotions that aren't there.

Forced Dream is reality warping, your timeline never existed.

And therefore neither did you?

You can make most of your buffs supernatural. What holes are you referring to?

Death Ward for instance doesn't make you immune to death, merely death effects. Mind Blank doesn't make you immune to will saves. Holes like that.

Doesn't Strange leave his body vulnerable while he's astral projecting? As Tainted Scholar pointed out, the wizard's demi plane will probably be faster.

Can Strange attack across planes, and if so how does that work?

How would a god do it?

[JNAProductions]

Mind Rape any random person into loving Strange, then Love's Pain that person.

No MR on Strange needed at all.

[Scots Dragon]

That's what Mind Rape is for, it can explicitly induce emotions.

Who someone thinks their loved one is by virtue of a spell that explicitly creates falsehoods, and who the actual loved one is, is quite a considerable difference. Especially since these changes can be reversed to normality by use of various methods. I'd personally rule that the creature's original true loved one is whoever would be affected by the spell, because that would fit the themes going on. It's a textbook example of sympathetic magic, and all sympathetic magic requires an actual genuine connection; it cannot be falsified.

Also 35 hit points for 3.5 intelligence points is hardly an efficient way of killing someone.

[ColorBlindNinja]

He can take the powers of gods through force of will. He rarely does this as it is considered taboo/black magic, but the option is there.

So it would be out of character for him to do so.

You're having your cake and eating it again. If Strange's Astral is different and his Artifacts are different, his spells must be different too. There's no point to this discussion if every definition is "whichever one favors the wizard."

His spells might be different. But just because they both have the same name doesn't mean that they're the same plane. Unless there is evidence that Strange's astral plane is timeless, why would we imagine it to be?

No time at all would count as "inifinitely fast."

Then both parties would experience time at the same rate.

You would have to mindrape Strange himself to make him feel emotions that aren't there.

I don't need Strange to feel anything. All I need is to Mind Rape some hapless commoner and then cast the spell on them. Strange will take unavoidable damage.

And therefore neither did you?

No. The caster is unaffected by the disappearance of the timeline. Forced Dream resets everything back to the beginning of your turn. You travel to the universes beginning, head back to the present and then activate it. There's nothing in the power description that would imply paradoxes are an issue. It was all just a dream.

Death Ward for instance doesn't make you immune to death, merely death effects. Mind Blank doesn't make you immune to will saves. Holes like that.

Hide Life does make you immune to death. Between True Seeing and Mind Blank, what will saves are going to be an issue?

How would a god do it?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Who someone thinks their loved one is by virtue of a spell that explicitly creates falsehoods, and who the actual loved one is, is quite a considerable difference. Especially since these changes can be reversed to normality by use of various methods. I'd personally rule that the creature's original true loved one is whoever would be affected by the spell, because that would fit the themes going on. It's a textbook example of sympathetic magic, and all sympathetic magic requires an actual genuine connection; it cannot be falsified.

Also 35 hit points for 3.5 intelligence points is hardly an efficient way of killing someone.

Love is entirely a subjective emotion. Feelings can change on a whim. Mind Rape can induce love, Love's Pain requires the target to be in love. There's no rule basis for your argument.

Love's pain can be powered up with metamagic, and if you use it from a fast flowing demi plane it can deal a ton of damage quickly.

Edit: Also, the wizard is probably replicating the spell with Wish or is immune to ability damage.

[Scots Dragon]

So it would be out of character for him to do so.

Actually no. The fact is that he can, will, and has done it. It's just under the category of stuff he'll pull as a later resort.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Actually no. The fact is that he can, will, and has done it. It's just under the category of stuff he'll pull as a later resort.

So the question is, can the wizard kill him before that?

[Scots Dragon]

So the question is, can the wizard kill him before that?

Survey says probably not. More powerful entities have tried.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Survey says probably not. More powerful entities have tried.

You have to back up your claims with actual reason.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Survey says probably not. More powerful entities have tried.

How would Strange kill the wizard?

Also, I forgot a great combo: regeneration (Shapechange into an Elemental Weird) and Favor of the Martyr. You're immune to damage.

[Scots Dragon]

You have to back up your claims with actual reason.

Respect threads are kinda useful...

He's done stuff like going up against and wielding galaxy-shattering forces. You really do need stuff on the level of high-scale Mage: The Ascension tricks to match Strange.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Respect threads are kinda useful...

He's done stuff like going up against and wielding galaxy-shattering forces. You really do need stuff on the level of high-scale Mage: The Ascension tricks to match Strange.

A D&D Wizard can literally produce an infinite amount of force.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Respect threads are kinda useful...

He's done stuff like going up against and wielding galaxy-shattering forces.

So, what specific tactic are you proposing?

[Psyren]

His spells might be different. But just because they both have the same name doesn't mean that they're the same plane. Unless there is evidence that Strange's astral plane is timeless, why would we imagine it to be?

I'm going to focus on this bit first because nothing else I would say matters without it. Do words/names matter or not? Does text matter or not? Rules As Written doesn't care if "artifact" has different connotations between a rulebook and a comic - an artifact is an artifact. Similarly, it doesn't care if "Astral Plane" implies something different either. RAW only cares if they have the same name. Either you accept that premise, or there's really no point in continuing this discussion as we'll just be comparing apples to apple-shaped volkswagens.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm going to focus on this bit first because nothing else I would say matters without it. Do words/names matter or not? Does text matter or not? Rules As Written doesn't care if "artifact" has different connotations between a rulebook and a comic - an artifact is an artifact. Similarly, it doesn't care if "Astral Plane" implies something different either. RAW only cares if they have the same name. Either you accept that premise, or there's really no point in continuing this discussion as we'll just be comparing apples to apple-shaped volkswagens.

RAW deals with D&D. It's silly to claim that a completely different plane of existence named the Astral Plane should be identical to the one in 3.5 just because they have the same name.


Again, this equates to claiming that a god from a completely different work of fiction should be immune to disintegration just because D&D ones are. This a non sequitur.

Certain generalized words may have identical meanings: plane of existence, magic, ect. But specific terms should not. Otherwise, Thor in Marvel would have the same abilities as Thor in Deities and Demigods. That doesn't make any sense.

It's hardly an apples to oranges comparison to say that two terms with the same name aren't equal.

[Psyren]

RAW deals with D&D. It's silly to claim that a completely different plane of existence named the Astral Plane should be identical to the one in 3.5 just because they have the same name.

Again, RAW means Rules As Written. If the written words don't matter, then nothing in your wizard's spells do either and this whole thread is pointless.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I'm going to focus on this bit first because nothing else I would say matters without it. Do words/names matter or not? Does text matter or not? Rules As Written doesn't care if "artifact" has different connotations between a rulebook and a comic - an artifact is an artifact. Similarly, it doesn't care if "Astral Plane" implies something different either. RAW only cares if they have the same name. Either you accept that premise, or there's really no point in continuing this discussion as we'll just be comparing apples to apple-shaped volkswagens.

Except they're shown to be completely different. It doesn't matter if they have the same name if the barely reassemble one another.

This would be like claiming that Smaug can cast as a Sorcerer.

Or claiming that virus zombies are immune to crits (Despite the fact that they die to headshots).

Yes, we need to find equivalents so as to determine how they interact, but just because they have the same name doesn't mean they are the same thing.

Again, RAW means Rules As Written. If the written words don't matter, then nothing in your wizard's spells do either and this whole thread is pointless.

This is like claiming that the Twillight vampires should die to sunlight because they're called vampires. The rules work differently between different franchises. Strange will follow his franchise's rule and The Wizard her's.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Again, RAW means Rules As Written. If the written words don't matter, then nothing in your wizard's spells do either and this whole thread is pointless.

RAW matters in the context of D&D. Marvel Comics are not part of those rules.

[Psyren]

This is like claiming that the Twillight vampires should die to sunlight because they're called vampires. The rules work differently between different franchises. Strange will follow his franchises rule and The Wizard hers.

Great, so Strange wins because he's protagonist and a lynchpin of his universe, while Joe Wizard 20 is a random nobody.

RAW matters in the context of D&D. Marvel Comics are not part of those rules.

Indeed, making this contest pointless, glad we agree.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Great, so Strange wins because he's protagonist and a lynchpin of his universe, while Joe Wizard 20 is a random nobody.

Dude, Strange has lost fights before. Just because he's a protagonist doesn't mean he's going to win.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Great, so Strange wins because he's protagonist and a lynchpin of his universe, while Joe Wizard 20 is a random nobody.

So if we set this in the D&D verse, then the wizard wins?

Indeed, making this contest pointless, glad we agree.

No, VS debates tend to have compatibility issues. It's hardly pointless; these issues can be overcome.

[Psyren]

So if we set this in the D&D verse, then the wizard wins?

The D&D universe has a DM who would answer that question.

Dude, Strange has lost fights before. Just because he's a protagonist doesn't mean he's going to win.

Lost fights sure, but not overall conflicts. Nothing with any permanence, in other words.

No, VS debates tend to have compatibility issues. It's hardly pointless; these issues can be overcome.

That usually starts with agreeing on terms. You can't say "fire means something different in this universe therefore they can't burn each other." Either Magic A is Magic A and we can discuss, or not and not.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That usually starts with agreeing on terms. You can't say "fire means something different in this universe therefore they can't burn each other." Either Magic A is Magic A and we can discuss, or not and not.

A more apt analogy would be if fire was a green gelatin dessert in D&D while it was just normal fire in the Marvel. If that were the case would you be claiming that D&D should burn Strange just because they're both called fire?

[ColorBlindNinja]

The D&D universe has a DM who would answer that question.

D&D games have DMs, the D&D universe doesn't.

That usually starts with agreeing on terms. You can't say "fire means something different in this universe therefore they can't burn each other." Either Magic A is Magic A and we can discuss, or not and not.

Literally no one has claimed that or anything tantamount to that. Objections were raised on two topics: are D&D artifacts and god created items equivalent, and whether or not the Marvel Astral Plane is the same as the D&D one.

I would be willing to accept the bit about artifacts and I could accept that Dr. Strange's spells are fundamentally different from D&D ones. But the Astral Planes being the same and AMF not blocking Stange's (non artifact) magic is where I disagree. Neither of those claims make any sense.

[Psyren]

A more apt analogy would be if fire was a green gelatin dessert in D&D while it was just normal fire in the Marvel. If that were the case would you be claiming that D&D should burn Strange just because they're both called fire?

Depends, does the RAW say "fire?"

D&D games have DMs, the D&D universe doesn't.

Sure it does, he/she is Ao's boss.

Literally no one has claimed that or anything tantamount to that. Objections were raised on two topics: are D&D artifacts and god created items equivalent, and whether or not the Marvel Astral Plane is the same as the D&D one.

I would be willing to accept the bit about artifacts and I could accept that Dr. Strange's spells are fundamentally different from D&D ones. But the Astral Planes being the same and AMF not blocking Stange's (non artifact) magic is where I disagree. Neither of those claims make any sense.

RAW doesn't have to make sense. See also drown healing or a god's toenail being in your pouch so you can Ice Assassin it. Neither of those make sense, but RAW is RAW.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Depends, does the RAW say "fire?"

Are you seriously saying that if RAW referred to green gelatin dessert as fire, you would argue that it would burn Strange?

[Psyren]

Are you seriously saying that if RAW referred to green gelatin dessert as fire, you would argue that it would burn Strange?

Are you seriously saying you have a god's body parts in your spell component pouch?

Ridiculousness cuts both ways.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Depends, does the RAW say "fire?"

That doesn't make them the same thing. They're fundamentally different.

Sure it does, he/she is Ao's boss.

Isn't Ao exclusive to Forgotten Realms?

RAW doesn't have to make sense. See also drown healing or a god's toenail being in your pouch so you can Ice Assassin it. Neither of those make sense, but RAW is RAW.

If RAW describes the Astral Plane as having certain properties, and Marvel's Astral Plane has different properties, then they're not the same thing. RAW is referring to something else entirely.

Are you seriously saying you have a god's body parts in your spell component pouch?

Ridiculousness cuts both ways.

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of being ridiculous, you're just wrong.

Or, are you saying that Marvel Thor be the same as D&D Thor because they share the same name?

I truly think we're arguing in circles at this point. I disagree with you, but I don't think this debate is going anywhere. Perhaps we should agree to disagree?