D&D 3.5 Wizard VS Classic Dr. Strange

[Tainted_Scholar]

Except, the only canonical god parts we have access to — the Hand and Eye of Vecna — are major artefacts, which wish cannot reproduce.

What does Wish have to do with this? We're talking about Eschew Materials.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Except, the only canonical god parts we have access to — the Hand and Eye of Vecna — are major artefacts, which wish cannot reproduce.

Artifact != god DNA. They're not the same thing. Besides, Artifacts have no GP limit either and are thus game for Eschew Materials.

[Scots Dragon]

What does Wish have to do with this? We're talking about Eschew Materials.

Fair point, sorry.

Eschew Materials can't reproduce them either because the cost would be way, way higher than a single gold piece. They don't have a listed price because it's impossible to recreate them and they are one-of-a-kind items.

[Hackulator]

That's irrelevant; this is a TO discussion. What DMs will or won't allow is of no consequence here.



Unless you can list a price, your argument has no rules backing. I'm not using wishing for artifacts, I'm wishing for a DNA sample.


It is a RAW reading.




Yes it does, they're listed separately in the description. No limits are given on what magic items you can wish for.

That is not RAW, that is rules interpreted how you want them. The exact text of eschew materials is

"You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal."

or

"A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level."

Simply because the people who wrote the books did not include everything that could ever exist in their equipment tables does not mean things not on those tables have a value of 0. That is an inane reading in an attempt to do something that is clearly outside of the intention of the power.

As for the statement "what DMs would say doesn't matter" yes, I will admit that if you are allowed to stack every ability in the game on your wizard making all the rules calls in your favor as to what you can do, you could probably defeat Doctor Strange, but you have at that point basically taken the Narrative power you denied to me, given it to yourself and claimed some sort of victory.

I feel like I won, I'm good here.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Fair point, sorry.

Eschew Materials can't reproduce them either because the cost would be way, way higher than a single gold piece. They don't have a listed price because it's impossible to recreate them and they are one-of-a-kind items.

Again though, since they don't have a listed price, then in RAW they aren't worth any money. Therefore Eschew Materials can stand in for them. I know it's silly and doesn't make sense but that's how it works in RAW.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That is not RAW, that is rules interpreted how you want them. The exact text of eschew materials is

"You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal."

or

"A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level."

Simply because the people who wrote the books did not include everything that could ever exist in their equipment tables does not mean things not on those tables have a value of 0. That is an inane reading in an attempt to do something that is clearly outside of the intention of the power.

As for the statement "what DMs would say doesn't matter" yes, I will admit that if you are allowed to stack every ability in the game on your wizard making all the rules calls in your favor as to what you can do, you could probably defeat Doctor Strange, but you have at that point basically taken the Narrative power you denied to me, given it to yourself and claimed some sort of victory.

I feel like I won, I'm good here.

Um, good for you then?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Fair point, sorry.

Eschew Materials can't reproduce them either because the cost would be way, way higher than a single gold piece. They don't have a listed price because it's impossible to recreate them and they are one-of-a-kind items.

Artifacts aren't really important to this discussion, but unless you can show a GP cost for god DNA, your argument has no RAW basis.

Saying that there are artifacts that contain god DNA isn't enough. This is like claiming that you can't wish for metal, because there's an artifact that is made out metal.

That is not RAW, that is rules interpreted how you want them. The exact text of eschew materials is

"You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal."

or

"A spell cast with Eschew Materials can be cast with no material components. Spells without material components are not affected. Spells with material components with a cost of more than 1 gp are not affected. An eschewed spell uses up a spell slot zero levels higher than (the same as) the spell's actual level."

Simply because the people who wrote the books did not include everything that could ever exist in their equipment tables does not mean things not on those tables have a value of 0. That is an inane reading in an attempt to do something that is clearly outside of the intention of the power.

That's simply how the rules work.

As for the statement "what DMs would say doesn't matter" yes, I will admit that if you are allowed to stack every ability in the game on your wizard making all the rules calls in your favor as to what you can do, you could probably defeat Doctor Strange, but you have at that point basically taken the Narrative power you denied to me, given it to yourself and claimed some sort of victory.

I feel like I won, I'm good here.

Narrative power has nothing to due with the abilities of a character. I have quoted text from the rules to support my arguments; indeed much of what I've proposed is common TO.

[woweedd]

Hmmm...ON the one hand, a Level 20 Wizard has spells that make them god-level powerful. On the othe rhand, the Doctor has half a century's worth of spells, amassed by dozens of writers, all with different ideas of what "magic" means. I"m not sure there is a concrete winner here. Pretty much any abused feat a D & D WIzard can pull, you can find a panel somewhere of the Doc doing something equally ridiculous.

[SimonMoon6]

Dr. Strange has survived inside the sun, traveled through time under his own power to win fights he had lost or was going to lose, and defeated God in a fight (yes like, the judeo-christian god).

And he was defeated by Plantman.

[Scots Dragon]

And he was defeated by Plantman.

Having not prepared the right spells or taken on unprepared, I'm pretty sure the wizard with its half-BAB, d4 hit dice, and strength-as-dump-stat wouldn't really fare much better.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Having not prepared the right spells or taken on unprepared, I'm pretty sure the wizard with its half-BAB, d4 hit dice, and strength-as-dump-stat wouldn't really fare much better.

So you're saying Strange was being a complete and utter moron?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Having not prepared the right spells or taken on unprepared, I'm pretty sure the wizard with its half-BAB, d4 hit dice, and strength-as-dump-stat wouldn't really fare much better.

This Wizard would simply have all of her spells made permanent via Alter Reality.

[Scots Dragon]

So you're saying Strange was being a complete and utter moron?

Or suffering from DM Fiat.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Or suffering from DM Fiat.

I think you mean Author Fiat.

[Scots Dragon]

I think you mean Author Fiat.

It's not that different a concept, so...

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's not that different a concept, so...

No, it isn't.

That is one more argument against narrative convenience; it doesn't always work in your favor.

[Scots Dragon]

No, it isn't.

That is one more argument against narrative convenience; it doesn't always work in your favor.

If actual narrative convenience were in play, the two would wind up having a dramatic conversation of some kind and the fight wouldn't happen because they'd both wind up being distracted from it by their mutual complaints about the lower-tier fighter types they both keep having to bail out of everything from mind control to castings of Evard's Black Tentacles.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If actual narrative convenience were in play, the two would wind up having a dramatic conversation of some kind and the fight wouldn't happen because they'd both wind up being distracted from it by their mutual complaints about the lower-tier fighter types they both keep having to bail out of everything from mind control to castings of Evard's Black Tentacles.

Speaking of Dramatic conversation, you never addressed the fact that the Wizard could use diplomacy to win.

[Mato]

Speaking of Dramatic conversation, you never addressed the fact that the Wizard could use diplomacy to win.

That's probably because it only works on non-player characters and the wizard needs to win initiative and spend six seconds in order to make an effective dc 60 check with a cross-class skill that runs off his dump stat. It's like assuming a 1st level commoner will roll three natural 20s in a row and submitting it as proof that you can easily and instantly kill a fortieth level wizard with a dull rock.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's probably because it only works on non-player characters and the wizard needs to win initiative and spend six seconds in order to make an effective dc 60 check with a cross-class skill that runs off his dump stat. It's like assuming a 1st level commoner will roll three natural 20s in a row and submitting it as proof that you can easily and instantly kill a fortieth level wizard with a dull rock.

It's pretty easy to get Diplomacy as a class skill and pump it to insane heights.

While I personally don't approve of diplomacy shenanigans in this instance; can you provide proof that Dr. Strange isn't immune to diplomacy?

He's not from D&D , so you can't say that it's because he's a playable character.

[Scots Dragon]

It's pretty easy to get Diplomacy as a class skill and pump it to insane heights.

While I personally don't approve of diplomacy shenanigans in this instance; can you provide proof that Dr. Strange isn't immune to diplomacy?

He's not from D&D , so you can't say that it's because he's a playable character.

He has stats intended for use by players in the old Marvel Super Heroes Role-Playing Game.

[Tainted_Scholar]

That's probably because it only works on non-player characters and the wizard needs to win initiative and spend six seconds in order to make an effective dc 60 check with a cross-class skill that runs off his dump stat. It's like assuming a 1st level commoner will roll three natural 20s in a row and submitting it as proof that you can easily and instantly kill a fortieth level wizard with a dull rock.

Wining Initiative is easy, also is Strange the type to attack his opponents when they're trying to talk to him? As for making a DC 60 check, also easy. There are plenty of buffs that shoot your skill checks through the roof. Hell we can even have the Wizard use bluff and pretend to surrender first if we don't want to take that negative 10 on the check for a rushed diplomacy.

[Mato]

Wining Initiative is easy, also is Strange the type to attack his opponents when they're trying to talk to him? As for making a DC 60 check, also easy. There are plenty of buffs that shoot your skill checks through the roof. Hell we can even have the Wizard use bluff and pretend to surrender first if we don't want to take that negative 10 on the check for a rushed diplomacy.

This must be what Dr Steven Strange felt like in the dark dimension.

Besides initiative and the skill check, there anything else you'd like to gloss over before I rewind back to my earlier quote about Dr Strange simply traveling backwards through time to ignore the wizard's initiative check?

[ColorBlindNinja]

This must be what Dr Steven Strange felt like in the dark dimension.

Besides initiative and the skill check, there anything else you'd like to gloss over before I rewind back to my earlier quote about Dr Strange simply traveling backwards through time to ignore the wizard's initiative check?

Strange can't do that because of Temporal Repair.

[Tainted_Scholar]

This must be what Dr Steven Strange felt like in the dark dimension.

While in the Dark Dimension Strange had to deal with exceptionally well worded and reasonable arguments as to why he should surrender?

Besides initiative and the skill check, there anything else you'd like to gloss over before I rewind back to my earlier quote about Dr Strange simply traveling backwards through time to ignore the wizard's initiative check?

I didn't gloss over the initiative and skill checks, I just explained that they can easily be pumped through the roof.

[Segev]

Perhaps the way to go about this is to attempt to faithfully stat Dr. Strange using 3.5/PF rules, giving him all the abilities he has?

The thing about D&D pseudo-vancian casting is that you CAN see equivalents in fiction, but they're hard to identify. When a wizard character is setting up rituals, or is building limited-use magic items or one-off charms, he's doing much what a D&D wizard is doing in preparing his spells. D&D wizards, despite the mechanical emphasis on prepared spell slots, are really preparing their spells by doing complicated magical things that they can then quickly trigger later on.

A lot of what Doctor Strange does is either not D&D pseudo-vancian wizardry, because he just kind-of knows how to fling magic around in those ways, or is the kind of stuff the pseudo-vancian wizard does in his preparation time. Sure, it looks fancy and magical, but the end results are a prepared thing to unleash later, not a useful magical spell in its own right then and there. (I'm thinking of the movie scene where he's playing with the apple right now.)

The rules of magic can be more narrative in a narrative work, and still have pretty firm rules. But they're harder then to quantify in a game-play fashion.

So, the question is, would Dr. Strange even be a wizard? Would he be a sorcerer?

I posit that he's probably closer to an artificer with access to magic items he's built that give him at-will magical effects.

[noob]

Alternatively he is a war-mage that then took levels in rainbow war-snake and who is an artificer?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Perhaps the way to go about this is to attempt to faithfully stat Dr. Strange using 3.5/PF rules, giving him all the abilities he has?

The thing about D&D pseudo-vancian casting is that you CAN see equivalents in fiction, but they're hard to identify. When a wizard character is setting up rituals, or is building limited-use magic items or one-off charms, he's doing much what a D&D wizard is doing in preparing his spells. D&D wizards, despite the mechanical emphasis on prepared spell slots, are really preparing their spells by doing complicated magical things that they can then quickly trigger later on.

A lot of what Doctor Strange does is either not D&D pseudo-vancian wizardry, because he just kind-of knows how to fling magic around in those ways, or is the kind of stuff the pseudo-vancian wizard does in his preparation time. Sure, it looks fancy and magical, but the end results are a prepared thing to unleash later, not a useful magical spell in its own right then and there. (I'm thinking of the movie scene where he's playing with the apple right now.)

The rules of magic can be more narrative in a narrative work, and still have pretty firm rules. But they're harder then to quantify in a game-play fashion.

So, the question is, would Dr. Strange even be a wizard? Would he be a sorcerer?

I posit that he's probably closer to an artificer with access to magic items he's built that give him at-will magical effects.

That's a rabbit hole I'd prefer not to dive into headfirst.

It would be extremely difficult to try to stat Strange as D&D anything.

[Scots Dragon]

I posit that he's probably closer to an artificer with access to magic items he's built that give him at-will magical effects.

He's not an artificer because most if not all of his magic items are artefacts that he has acquired as part of storylines and as part of his official position. He also doesn't need a single one of them to cast any of his spells.

[Darth Ultron]

Can you provide some evidence for this claim?

Just about any comic book where Dr. Strange casts a spell.

Can you show evidence of this unbounded power? From the Wiki articles I read through, it would seem that Strange has limits.

He really does not, other then the ''metacomic'' idea that they don't want Dr. Strange to alter the multiverse like play-dough.

Dr. Strange can, at will, cast a magic spell to do anything he wants. Simple magic spells, what D&D considers like all spells, he can do at will with no real limit other then ''he gets tired like a human''.

But that is not all. At will, he can cast unbelievably powerful spells that can do anything beyond the power of all reason. Now he does have the vague limit here of he can only cast ''a couple'' such spells and then he needs to ''rest'' for a bit, the fact that he is a ''good guy'' and he follows some self imposed rules.

And if all of that was not enough, he can telepathically command any of the couple of dozen artifices he owns to do magic, and most of his artifacts are of the ''wish effect times a trillion'' type effect.

Dr. Strange does not cast spells in the D&D sense as ''this is what this spell does'', he casts a spell as just raw magic and can make anything into anything or whatever he wants.

As a ''good'' guy, Dr. Strange does the classic ''wrongbad good''. So like if some demons pop up and say kill a family, he will be all like ''well too bad, people die''. Worse, he can do something about it, such as the fact he can time travel at will, but he will say he must ''follow the rules'' and can't do it. But, of course, he breaks the ''rules'' at will (whenever a writer wants him too).

I guess most Wiki's just say ''Dr. Strange can use magic?''