Erfworld Thread X: A Series of Unfortunate Cliffhangers

[JavaScribe]

This feels like the perfect place to switch to Jillian!

[Welf]

Wasnt it about how Achilles could never beat a turtle in a foot race if the turtle was allowed to start halfway there?

Zeno write the Achilles one, too. I thought the Homer one is more fitting since it is about splitting a finite distance into a infinite amount of tasks. There is also a third one about an arrow that can not move, since it always occupies an space and is motionless at that instance. That also might work as an analogy for current updates.

I am disappointed with how Erfworld as a whole. 50-60% of texts and comics should be edited out. It feels like a meandering mess. The updates itself are not as good as they used to be. They often get bogged down by magi-speak that is supposed to be clever, but actually is only distracting. It's a far cry from the book 1 comics that were packed with information and meaning. Back then a single panel gave us more to discuss than a entire update today.

[-D-]

This feels like the perfect place to switch to Jillian!

The plot is about to explode! That means Jillian, Stanley, Trammenis, Unknown view point #1, Ceasar, Wanda, Bill, Ted, Ted's best friend AT MINIMUM.

[guttering flame]

The plot is about to explode! That means Jillian, Stanley, Trammenis, Unknown view point #1, Ceasar, Wanda, Bill, Ted, Ted's best friend AT MINIMUM.

You forgot the Bat Legion. They appeared so much recently. It's about time we get a few POVs from them.

[deuterio12]

You know, Efworld basically fell into a subtle but dangerous mistake.

Too. Many. Characters. At the same time.

The author himself indirectly admited it that in that recent off-topic rant about delays, that when somebody does something important he needs to take in account all of the other characters reactions and that's a lot of work.

You don't say?

First we only had Stanley+Hamster+Ansom+Digdoug+Wanda+Vampire+Jillia n. Meaty, but not overwhelming. There were some other minor named characters but they got limited screen time (Charlie was pretty nice as the background mercenary leader) or plain died (Ansom's sergeant, the cyclops troll, rest his soul).

But then Rob started adding characters left and right and added a pseudo-ressurection artifact on top. He's been slowly writing himself in a mess and by trying to keep them all detailed, the quality just drops.

I had some hope when Charlie just nuked the thinkmancer's temple as retaliation for killing his brand new mancers, but of course nope, they all came back right away.

[deuterio12]

Double post sorry.

[-D-]

You know, Efworld basically fell into a subtle but dangerous mistake.

Too. Many. Characters. At the same time.

The author himself indirectly admited it that in that recent off-topic rant about delays, that when somebody does something important he needs to take in account all of the other characters reactions and that's a lot of work.

You don't say?

I actually slightly disagree. He didn't fell into a subtle but dangerous mistake. He dug the hole, then threw himself in with abandon.

Error #1: Too many characters. Yeah; I agree fully.
Error #2: Lack of focus. Rob DOESN'T have to tell us, what each pawn in the game of chess thinks about his spear or severe lack of chocolate fudge. It's artist prerogative to show us only relevant parts.
Error #3: Tell, tell, tell, tell, tell. What's especially galling is instead of showing how stuff happens, we get told what each of them is thinking. In Book 1 there was very little details about what Character X was thinking, but it worked so, so, so much better.

[guttering flame]

Error #2: Lack of focus. Rob DOESN'T have to tell us, what each pawn in the game of chess thinks about his spear or severe lack of chocolate fudge. It's artist prerogative to show us only relevant parts.

I'm not sure. Erfworld is an alien world populated with puppet characters. Getting into the head of those simple soldiers or a caster from a different speciality was illuminating. As long as we only got external views of these characters and Parson's observations of them we couldn't be sure what made them tick. Though spreading the POVs all over was hardly necessary.

[-D-]

I'm not sure. Erfworld is an alien world populated with puppet characters. Getting into the head of those simple soldiers or a caster from a different speciality was illuminating. As long as we only got external views of these characters and Parson's observations of them we couldn't be sure what made them tick. Though spreading the POVs all over was hardly necessary.

It's never necessary. You could have made Parson a quasi caster and thus able to link up, then explain the concepts in a linkup. Having an audience surrogate character is great, especially because when you explain to him, you explain to the audience, so he and audience are in sync. Right now, we know more than Parson does, so after they explain to us, they need to have a scene, they explain that stuff to Parson (hopefully offscreen).

And sure, one soldier would be interesting to see a perspective, but a whole boatload is just tediously slow.

[guttering flame]

It's never necessary. You could have made Parson a quasi caster and thus able to link up, then explain the concepts in a linkup. Having an audience surrogate character is great, especially because when you explain to him, you explain to the audience, so he and audience are in sync. Right now, we know more than Parson does, so after they explain to us, they need to have a scene, they explain that stuff to Parson (hopefully offscreen).

And sure, one soldier would be interesting to see a perspective, but a whole boatload is just tediously slow.

I meant we and Parson aren't sure how human these Erfworlder really are or whether they have a will of their own and similar questions. They seem to be but maybe they're just well made puppets. Just because they pass some Turing tests doesn't mean there's something meaningful inside them. Getting a simple spear-bearer's POV or an archer's, freshly popped proves it. Seeing how the world looks from the eyes of royalty and various magicians adds to the picture. But I agree Rob made a mistake turning them into a legion of full-time POV characters.

[-D-]

I meant we and Parson aren't sure how human these Erfworlder really are or whether they have a will of their own and similar questions. They seem to be but maybe they're just well made puppets.

I think, they established their non-puppet nature as far as Book 1. We see them, love, bleed and die. Even Parson mourns Misty, and is angry at the (Erf)world, for being so cruel.

[Jasdoif]

Error #1: Too many characters. Yeah; I agree fully.
Error #2: Lack of focus. Rob DOESN'T have to tell us, what each pawn in the game of chess thinks about his spear or severe lack of chocolate fudge. It's artist prerogative to show us only relevant parts.
Error #3: Tell, tell, tell, tell, tell. What's especially galling is instead of showing how stuff happens, we get told what each of them is thinking. In Book 1 there was very little details about what Character X was thinking, but it worked so, so, so much better.

There's nothing inherently wrong with having a lot of characters. Or using a minor character as a point-of-view character. Or with writing through a character's thought process.

The issue here (with since Book 3) is that Rob isn't using these tools to tell the story effectively.

---

Normally, if you have multiple characters in a scene you write it once, with a single point-of-view character. Typically, this is the character with the most to learn (so the audience can learn alongside them) or the most to lose (so the audience can empathize with their tension) in the scene. Other characters are acknowledged through the observations of, or interactions with, the PoV character. Bits of character thought processing can be good too, especially in conjunction with observation; coming to a conclusion from something you see happening isn't particularly active, but it's far less passive than simply seeing something happen. Of course, it's even better if the character then acts on the new conclusion, in the same scene.

Similarly, using a minor character for point-of-view is a perfectly valid approach if the major characters in the scene have nothing to learn and nothing to lose from it. My personal preference in such situations is to look long and hard at whether the scene needs to exist in the first place, but occasionally there's a use for it; and in such cases it's better to have an interesting scene with a minor/new PoV character than a boring scene with a major PoV character.

...like those in the the Jack-PoV update prior to this one. The major change was the reveal (to Parson's allies) of Roger working with Vanna against Parson...which was entirely subsumed with the most recent Maggie-PoV update, since Maggie was also there when it happened and Maggie's scene continues after said reveal. Almost like Rob couldn't decide how to handle the key sequence effectively, chose to write it twice instead of making a decision, and then padded out each update with extra introspective scenes for...some reason?

Not to say there was nothing else of interest in Jack's thinking, there was. But is this the time for it? That amount of extraneous detail is better suited for relieving tension...and since the audience already knew there's a ploy in action against Parson, this should a time for building tension instead.


Plot explosions and tension killers; that's not the plot exploding, that's exploding the plot. Hmm...well we were talking about thread titles earlier, so why not?

"Erfworld Thread XI: That's Not the Plot Exploding, That's Exploding the Plot"

[Anteros]

I honestly suspect it's just easier to write a bunch of filler than it is to write a satisfying story, and Rob just doesn't really know what he wants to do with his own story any more. He's likely treading water because he needs that sweet update money to keep the comic afloat, so he has to push out something, even if it's low quality and doesn't progress the story at all.

It's not that I think he's intentionally writing a bad story because he's lazy or something...it just seems like he doesn't know how to get the story to where it needs to be, and so he keeps pushing these meaningless updates in the meantime where the plot doesn't really move.

[Jasdoif]

I honestly suspect it's just easier to write a bunch of filler than it is to write a satisfying story, and Rob just doesn't really know what he wants to do with his own story any more. He's likely treading water because he needs that sweet update money to keep the comic afloat, so he has to push out something, even if it's low quality and doesn't progress the story at all.

It's not that I think he's intentionally writing a bad story because he's lazy or something...it just seems like he doesn't know how to get the story to where it needs to be, and so he keeps pushing these meaningless updates in the meantime where the plot doesn't really move.

At the high level...I think these days, Rob enjoys the worldbuilding more than he does the story he's presumably trying to tell. We've been getting a lot of details about how casters perceive the world by discipline, how casters organize themselves by discipline in the Magic Kingdom, leaders of those caster organizations, politics between those caster organizations....The content of many of these updates could easily pass as vignettes in a Magic Kingdom supplement for an Erfworld RPG, and conceivably pull more weight than they do as scenes in a story.

[-D-]

There's nothing inherently wrong with having a lot of characters. Or using a minor character as a point-of-view character. Or with writing through a character's thought process.

The issue here (with since Book 3) is that Rob isn't using these tools to tell the story effectively.

I'd say in general case, there isn't a problem with it too many characters. But the way Rob writes them, he wants to tell us, what each of them is thinking/knows, at each moment, so we know why they acted that way. The problem is of course, DON'T do that, let the audience figure out their motivation and thoughts, from their action.

Similarly, using a minor character for point-of-view is a perfectly valid approach if the major characters in the scene have nothing to learn and nothing to lose from it. My personal preference in such situations is to look long and hard at whether the scene needs to exist in the first place, but occasionally there's a use for it;

Yeah, you're right. But in Erfworld, we get a lot of the Dwagons are going to descend upon town of Gooblygook; here is what Mook#4 is thinking few seconds before they start their descent... It's is done.

Instead of fiery crescendo, we get Mook#4 is thinking, because WE NEEDED THAT.

I was kinda getting to that in error#3, Rob, likes to tell us in detailed, repetitive fashion what each pawn is thinking.

"Erfworld Thread XI: That's Not the Plot Exploding, That's Exploding the Plot"

I'm gonna park my vote here (for time being)

[Welf]

Plot explosions and tension killers; that's not the plot exploding, that's exploding the plot. Hmm...well we were talking about thread titles earlier, so why not?

"Erfworld Thread XI: That's Not the Plot Exploding, That's Exploding the Plot"

I agree with the suggestion and everything else you wrote.

I meant we and Parson aren't sure how human these Erfworlder really are or whether they have a will of their own and similar questions. They seem to be but maybe they're just well made puppets. Just because they pass some Turing tests doesn't mean there's something meaningful inside them. Getting a simple spear-bearer's POV or an archer's, freshly popped proves it. Seeing how the world looks from the eyes of royalty and various magicians adds to the picture. But I agree Rob made a mistake turning them into a legion of full-time POV characters.

It used to be enlightened. The text updates about Wrigley and his spear were interesting, and made a nice little arc. It showed the thinking of a simple infantrist, expanded the world, and also gave insight were Stanley, a major supporting character came from. Nothing of that can be found in the last update. It's no new information or insight about characters or world we get. The thinkamancer thought r´trees had been mentioned a lot of times before, and it gets old.

[deuterio12]

Stanley, a major supporting character

Wait, since when is Stanley The Tool a supporting character? He's the boss of half the protagonists, he got an huge royal coalition aiming for his head, he's attunned to an arkentool and isn't afraid to use it. He's the first target of Jillian's hatred, the only character who ever defeated Caesar (aka the dude who's been known for capturing cities by himself). He was the first to properly communicate with the first sentient city in Erfworld, he charmed the juggle elves, he leads the one and only freaking dwagon fleet in Erfworld while rocking out, and he's aiming at nothing less than conquering everything. If that doesn't qualify him as one of the main protagonist too, what does?

[DataNinja]

The thing is, basically, what matters in the comic is how he interacts with Parson. This isn't the story of Stanley doing all those things... he's there, and he does things, but those aren't the focus of the story. For instance, in the first book, Stanley heading to FAQ mattered because of how it affected Parson - the story of him getting there didn't really matter in and of itself. OR, more recently, sure, him getting the Juggle Elves was important storywise, and gave him some time to shine, but it was a side event, and could have been, theoretically, done offscreen, without affecting the narrative.

And that's the important thing. For a protagonist, if you don't see their parts of the story... you don't really have a story anymore. Supporting characters enhance when used properly, but they could theoretically have no focus attributed to them.

[JavaScribe]

The latest.

[some guy]

Spoiler

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Parson's feet are connected to a base, as if he is pawn (a pawn only in the link-up? Or a pawn in Erfworld?). Also, Parson's crotch is covered by a word balloon, I think no crotches were covered in earlier link-ups.

[Razade]

Well, something finally happened. Guess Parson is going to get a new pair of shoes after all.

[-D-]

Well, something finally happened. Guess Parson is going to get a new pair of shoes after all.

Eh. Maybe. If he does leave Erfworld, shoes would be his only way back. But Judy isn't from regular Parson!Earth.

[DigoDragon]

Well, something finally happened. Guess Parson is going to get a new pair of shoes after all.

Well that didn't go quite as I expected. So... is this gonna be like 8 Simple Rules after John Ritter's gone?

[deuterio12]

Heh, they summoned him once, now just need to summon him again.

Notice however the bracer was not left behind. So if Hamster still has it in stupidworld, that will be pretty handy.

Meanwhile:

The thing is, basically, what matters in the comic is how he interacts with Parson. This isn't the story of Stanley doing all those things... he's there, and he does things, but those aren't the focus of the story. For instance, in the first book, Stanley heading to FAQ mattered because of how it affected Parson - the story of him getting there didn't really matter in and of itself. OR, more recently, sure, him getting the Juggle Elves was important storywise, and gave him some time to shine, but it was a side event, and could have been, theoretically, done offscreen, without affecting the narrative.

"Now think. I want a guy who's commanded all different kinds of battles. I want him to be obsessed with war. Somebody who plans wars and kills his foes for fun. I want a guy who snacks on gwiffons and eats marbits for BREAKFAST! And I know the spell will bind him to serve me, but I don't want a morale case. Get me somebody who actually wants to be summoned."

That's honestly the page that really sold me Erfworld. And Stanley. Hamster only got summoned in the first place because Stanley added all those extra clauses, otherwise Wanda may've just summoned generic super general #187.

And everything Hamster has done or plans to do must cover the clause of "Keep Stanley alive". Because Stanley refuses to get an heir. Because he's the motherf******* Stanley, the only leader in Erfworld that realizes heirs are pretty much more trouble than they're worth (besides Charlie but he's a cheater), and you don't need them anyway if you're playing to win instead of just trying to keep the status quo.

[Welf]

Well, something finally happened.

Uhm I think we agreed to hide massive spoilers like that?

But snarking aside, I like that it goes forward. I liked the page.

Spoiler

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Parson going back to Earth was expected, it had to happen. It gives a way to retrieve the Arkenshoes, and cuts the thread of eternal service to Stanley. Very bad for the later, since it means he is much more disposable. He could resummon him, but with the block to the Magic Kingdom that is unlikely. And the Arkenshoes give you the power to go where you belong. I think we all expected this to happen since we read those lines.

[guttering flame]

I wonder if the next few updates will be about a civil war between Bill, the dolls & Vanna and Ceasar's few brave men bats or Parson and his former rpg palls.

[Rockphed]

I wonder if the next few updates will be about a civil war between Bill, the dolls & Vanna and Ceasar's few brave men bats or Parson and his former rpg palls.

Parson's apartment has been rented out to some other poor schlub. Parson shows up in the bathtub. Hilarity ensues.

[Yana]

Spoiler: new comic

Show

Can someone just squash Vanna already? She's somehow more insufferable than Jillian.

[halfeye]

Spoiler: new comic

Show

Can someone just squash Vanna already? She's somehow more insufferable than Jillian.

Spoiler

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I think Caesar just did, that's what Shirley is complaining about.

[MReav]

Spoiler: new comic

Show

Can someone just squash Vanna already? She's somehow more insufferable than Jillian.

Spoiler

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Okay... I am currently confused as to what just happened.