Most Optimized Wizard a Fighter Can Beat.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Another Wizard Vs. Fighter thread, just with a slight change.

The Fighter will be high Practical Op. He is allowed multi-classing, but the majority of his levels must be in Fighter or Fighter prestige classes.

As for the Wizard, we will see how intelligently built and played a Wizard can be while still losing to the Fighter. I don't a Wizard so dumb she wears her underwear on her head.

Both of them will be Lvl 20, all first party material is available to them.

Also, I would like to avoid UMD Fighter if at all possible (Also, there have to be better Fighter than just relying on UMD).

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'd imagine that a well build Fighter could triumph over an Evoker Blaster Wizard.

A Batman Wizard? I somehow doubt it.

[Gellhorn]

If the wizard a) doesn't use something like ice Assassin or "btw I'm not really here I'm miles away on a different plane", b) doesn't have contingencies or other passive defences, and c)the fighter wins initiative, the fighter can probably win the fight assuming they can kill the wizard in one round.

I'm not saying this wizard is played super intelligently, or to their strengths, I'm just using this as a kind of starting point for both of them.

[Tainted_Scholar]

If the wizard a) doesn't use something like ice Assassin or "btw I'm not really here I'm miles away on a different plane", b) doesn't have contingencies or other passive defences, and c)the fighter wins initiative, the fighter can probably win the fight assuming they can kill the wizard in one round.

I'm not saying this wizard is played super intelligently, or to their strengths, I'm just using this as a kind of starting point for both of them.

The Wizard also would need to not use Nerveskitter in order for that to work.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the wizard a) doesn't use something like ice Assassin or "btw I'm not really here I'm miles away on a different plane", b) doesn't have contingencies or other passive defences, and c)the fighter wins initiative, the fighter can probably win the fight assuming they can kill the wizard in one round.

I'm not saying this wizard is played super intelligently, or to their strengths, I'm just using this as a kind of starting point for both of them.

No contingencies or passive defenses seems pretty unlikely considering most buffs last all day these levels.

[Gellhorn]

The Wizard also would need to not use Nerveskitter in order for that to work.

Falls under C

Edit: By "no passive defences", I really meant not too many, at least of the big ones that just say no to the fighter's ability to one shot the wizard, like foresight. I mean yeah of course the wizard will have some stuff up.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Edit: By "no passive defences", I really meant not too many, at least of the big ones that just say no to the fighter's ability to one shot the wizard, like foresight. I mean yeah of course the wizard will have some stuff up.

Ah, I see.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Edit: By "no passive defences", I really meant not too many, at least of the big ones that just say no to the fighter's ability to one shot the wizard, like foresight. I mean yeah of course the wizard will have some stuff up.

Actually the Wizard could have Foresight up and the Fighter can still win.

Foresight, by itself, only grants a +2 to AC and Reflex and prevents the subject from being flatfooted. It only becomes a problem for the Fighter when combined with Celerity, Immediate Actions, Trigger phrases and the like.

[Jowgen]

I think the fighter should be assumed to be speced for initiative and using some form of lockdown build, i.e. a mageslayer feat-chain based something. Then it actually becomes an excercise in how little optimization the Wizard can get away with, rather than how to get the Fighter to 1-hit kill the wizard.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think the fighter should be assumed to be speced for initiative and using some form of lockdown build, i.e. a mageslayer feat-chain based something. Then it actually becomes an excercise in how little optimization the Wizard can get away with, rather than how to get the Fighter to 1-hit kill the wizard.

The major issue I see with a lockdown build is that Quickened spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity. A Quickened Dimension Door would allow the Wizard to escape pretty easily.

Trying to 1-hit kill the Wizard seems like a better stratagem for the Fighter.

Is Craft Contingent Spell on the table for the Fighter (you can buy them after all)? That would help a lot.

[Tainted_Scholar]

The major issue I see with a lockdown build is that Quickened spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity. A Quickened Dimension Door would allow the Wizard to escape pretty easily.

Trying to 1-hit kill the Wizard seems like a better stratagem for the Fighter.

So, we're looking at a Charging Build with optimized Initiative.

The Fighter might also want to carry a non-metal weapon to bypass Iron Guard.

Is Craft Contingent Spell on the table for the Fighter (you can buy them after all)? That would help a lot.

As long as it stays PO.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So, we're looking at a Charging Build with optimized Initiative.

The Fighter might also want to carry a non-metal weapon to bypass Iron Guard.

It probably wouldn't hurt for it to be magic either.

As long as it stays PO.

That's going to cut into WBL fast.

[Tainted_Scholar]

It probably wouldn't hurt for it to be magic either.

Obviously, otherwise Starmantle would block it.

That's going to cut into WBL fast.

He could probably only afford one or two contingencies on top of his other gear.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Obviously, otherwise Starmantle would block it.

In fairness, Starmantle is 1/Minute Per Level; the wizard may have to cast Time Stop and buff himself to have it up.

He could probably only afford one or two contingencies on top of his other gear.

I think that the Fighter is going to run into problems covering his bases. Wizards have such a large library of spells that a single weakness left unaccounted for can be fatal.

Edit: Ghostform is probably better than Starmantle, except in duration.

Or Shapechange for incorporeal; it lasts longer than either.

[Doctor Awkward]

Honestly, it would probably just be a much faster approach to just systematically eliminate the tools a Wizard brings that result in an auto-loss for the Fighter.

Even an Evoker Wizard wins if he opens with Disjunction + Quickened Fly and moves 60 feet straight up.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Honestly, it would probably just be a much faster approach to just systematically eliminate the tools a Wizard brings that result in an auto-loss for the Fighter.

Even an Evoker Wizard wins if he opens with Disjunction + Quickened Fly and moves 60 feet straight up.

The sad thing is while that may indeed be faster, it'll still take forever.

[icefractal]

It's going to be a bit tricky to define, because a purpose-built Fighter could defeat a Wizard who was - in general - fairly optimized, as long as that Wizard was built with a weakness left open intentionally. But that's not very informative, so I guess we should consider a Wizard who is 'typical' for the level of optimization.

I think if we assume:
1) The Wizard is playing by the normal rules. No tricks to get more spells/day than the table gives, or to have more than normal WBL, or to maintain buffs much longer than normal.
2) It's just the Wizard, no pre-fight minion-mancy. 3) We count "the Wizard ran away" as a win for the Fighter. Let's say the Fighter wants to wreck the Wizard's prize-winning rose garden, and the Wizard is trying to stop that.
4) The Wizard doesn't know significantly in advance that the Fighter is coming. This is pretty likely if #1 is true and the Wizard has multiple enemies - limited divination spells only go so far.
5) The Fighter does get and intelligently use normal WBL. Doesn't mean UMD, but none of this "Winged Boots mean you're not a Fighter any more" nonsense.

Then the Fighter just needs to be a couple degrees more optimized than the Wizard. Although that is assuming someone specifically built as a Wizard-slayer - a general purpose warrior is not likely to do as well.

Even an Evoker Wizard wins if he opens with Disjunction + Quickened Fly and moves 60 feet straight up.

Well, if the Fighter's Will save is bad. With a good enough Will save, Disjunction does nothing to magic items. Obtaining a strong Will save requires more work than just casting a core spell, but that's what I mean by "a couple degree more optimized".

Also, you bring up something - what level is this happening at? I think the Fighter does best in the middle levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's going to be a bit tricky to define, because a purpose-built Fighter could defeat a Wizard who was - in general - fairly optimized, as long as that Wizard was built with a weakness left open.

I think if we assume:
1) The Wizard is playing by the normal rules. No tricks to get more spells/day than the table gives, or to have more than normal WBL, or to maintain buffs much longer than normal.
2) It's just the Wizard, no pre-fight minion-mancy. 3) We count "the Wizard ran away" as a win for the Fighter. Let's say the Fighter wants to wreck the Wizard's prize-winning rose garden, and the Wizard is trying to stop that.
4) The Wizard doesn't know significantly in advance that the Fighter is coming. This is pretty likely if #1 is true and the Wizard has multiple enemies - limited divination spells only go so far.
5) The Fighter does get and intelligently use normal WBL. Doesn't mean UMD, but none of this "Winged Boots mean you're not a Fighter any more" nonsense.

Then the Fighter just needs to be a couple degrees more optimized than the Wizard. Although that is assuming someone specifically built as a Wizard-slayer - a general purpose warrior is not likely to do as well.


Well, if the Fighter's Will save is bad. With a good enough Will save, Disjunction does nothing to magic items. Obtaining a strong Will save requires more work than just casting a core spell, but that's what I mean by "a couple degree more optimized".

Also, you bring up something - what level is this happening at? I think the Fighter does best in the middle levels.

Did you have a specific build in mind?

[icefractal]

Did you have a specific build in mind?

It's going to vary by how optimized the Wizard is.
* A Wizard as seen in the majority of campaigns (let's be honest, most casters are not played anywhere near their peak) could be defeated by a decent uber-charger.
* Something similar to the Elder-Evil-slaying Monk builds (but Fighter instead), could handle a moderately optimized Wizard.
* Good luck dealing with a TO-level Wizard, the only way would be similarly TO-level WBLmancy, at which point the 'Fighter' part is irrelevant.

If you mean, am I going to make a specific build ... probably not. Certainly not without a specific Wizard build being present. It's a lot of work, and fighting against Schroedinger's Wizard is a futile errand. Besides:

Wizards always win everything. Yes, everything. Don't question it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's going to vary by how optimized the Wizard is.
* A Wizard as seen in the majority of campaigns (let's be honest, most casters are not played anywhere near their peak) could be defeated by a decent uber-charger.

I'd agree that a charging build is our best bet. Arena battles tend not to have difficult terrain or anything that wouldn't shut down charging, so that's good.

* Something similar to the Elder-Evil-slaying Monk builds (but Fighter instead), could handle a moderately optimized Wizard.

I recall reading a thread where Tippy challenged the Playground to defeat all the Elder Evils with a Monk build. Is that what you're referring to?

* Good luck dealing with a TO-level Wizard, the only way would be similarly TO-level WBLmancy, at which point the 'Fighter' part is irrelevant.

Not only that, but without spellcasting the Fighter is still at a disadvantage. Though at high TO such contests are practically pointless.

If you mean, am I going to make a specific build ... probably not. Certainly not without a specific Wizard build being present. It's a lot of work, and fighting against Schroedinger's Wizard is a futile errand.

I see your point. I was thinking more of general tactics and gear than specific build.

I remember a Cowl of Warding being useful (if expensive). Mind Blank, Freedom of Movement and Spell Turning all in one package.

[Florian]

Hm. I´d probably use Fetchling as base race, upgrade the racial SLAs with Shadow Traveller to gain DimDoor to get Dimensional Assault going, Step Up, Step Up and Strike and Dimensional Step Up. I´d dip two levels of Barbarian to gain Fiend Totem, Superstition, Witchkiller and Spellsunder. Rest would go towards Combat Reflexes, Brute Style, Cloak and Dagger Style, round out with Balor´s Whip feat chain, Disruptive, Spellbreaker, Cut From The Air. (I try to avoid having to go into Shadowdancer or Horizon Walker)

This is a heavy denial/martial control build. Teleport-Pouce to get close, auto-movement to stick to the target - up to teleporting/plane shift along with it if necessary, everything provokes AoOs, even defensive casting and you can chain up combat maneuvers as AoO. (Edit: With the very weird side-effect of auto-triggering the Steal combat maneuver on each attack/AoO, so we´ll quickly rob the target of their WBL)

That should be able to tackle a broad range of standard wizard builds. What it prolly can´t beat is a Chronomancer, Combat-Diviner and builds focused on Bilocation and/or Akashic Form w/o having to resort to Wish for an AMF (or use an Ankou´s Shadow build)

[rel]

The issue with these threads is the back and forth. The wizard can do this but the fighter can do that but then the wizard can do the other and so on.

It assumes both parties have far too much information about each other and I don't think it reflects the actual capabilities of either class very well.

So instead try the following experiment.

1) Come up with a wizard. Stats, daily buffs and preperations, general habits, etc.

2) Don't tell anyone these stats but hold them in escrow so you can't change them

3) invite people to make a fight guy that the wizard has unknowingly wronged. The fighter knows who the wizard is and where they hang out.
The wizard isn't (initially) aware the fighter exists. As with the wizard, the fighter needs stats, tactics and so on.

See who wins and go from there. I think the challenge becomes a lot more interesting if the wizards preperations are fixed rather than specifically countering the fighter trick of the day BUT the fighter isn't omnisciently aware of said preperations.

[Endarire]

A Fighter may be in better shape if he relies on bows/thrown weapons/other ranged options.

What about UMD?

[Frozen_Feet]

A long, long time ago I started a somewhat similar thread where the question was "How big of a dragon can a Fighter beat?" The restrictions on that were more stringent for the Fighter, though: no magic items, no supernatural, spell-like, psi-like etc. abilities or feats, all levels must be in Fighter. On the dragon side, any CR was fair game.

I personally made a Raptoran archer build which could defeat Young Red Dragons, and another poster made a Darkstalker charger build which could in theory one-shot an ancient gold wyrm and force a really high number of poison saves. The problem was getting a clear shot more than anything, as a Fighter is not super good at actually finding the higher CR dragons.

Anyways... for the Fighter, you can use Raptoran for (Ex)traordinary flight, Darkstalker to become very hard to detect, possibly Hidden Talent for Call Weaponry to always have a chance to recover a magic weapon if one is lost.

[noob]

2) Don't tell anyone these stats but hold them in escrow so you can't change them

So I can make a murkdweller caster who picked up himself as a familiar and then became a changeling wizard(polymorph scroll and then take a level) and so can change his build with a simple action because his familiar can become any valid familiar(and thus he can become any wizard at any time as long as he have a casting of celerity ready)

[Beheld]

The issue with these threads is the back and forth. The wizard can do this but the fighter can do that but then the wizard can do the other and so on.

It assumes both parties have far too much information about each other and I don't think it reflects the actual capabilities of either class very well.

So instead try the following experiment.

1) Come up with a wizard. Stats, daily buffs and preperations, general habits, etc.

2) Don't tell anyone these stats but hold them in escrow so you can't change them

3) invite people to make a fight guy that the wizard has unknowingly wronged. The fighter knows who the wizard is and where they hang out.
The wizard isn't (initially) aware the fighter exists. As with the wizard, the fighter needs stats, tactics and so on.

See who wins and go from there. I think the challenge becomes a lot more interesting if the wizards preperations are fixed rather than specifically countering the fighter trick of the day BUT the fighter isn't omnisciently aware of said preperations.

I mean, the point of this thread is a Wizard that can be beaten, so that's a lot more likely to produce a Wizard that can't be beaten.

But also, you have a bit of a contradiction in 1) and 3). If the Wizard's general habits result in no one knowing where he is most of the time, then the fighter won't know where they hang out.

I mean, does have have secret spies chilling on the Wizard's demiplane? In his MMM?

[herceg]

The major issue I see with a lockdown build is that Quickened spells don't provoke attacks of opportunity. A Quickened Dimension Door would allow the Wizard to escape pretty easily.

That's a not entirely typical use of an 8th level slot*, plus a fancy way of giving up your actions for that round and your immediate action for the next before your turn.
(note the "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. " part in the spell's description)


Edit: * What I mean is, how many non-fully optimized wizard will have such a spell prepared at that level?

[Beheld]

That's a not entirely typical use of an 8th level slot*, plus a fancy way of giving up your actions for that round and your immediate action for the next before your turn.
(note the "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. " part in the spell's description)


Edit: * What I mean is, how many non-fully optimized wizard will have such a spell prepared at that level?

They only need any swift action spell at all that breaks cover for even a moment. A 5ft step plus casting blockade denies AoOs to your lockdown build and allows them to cast any non quickened spell to teleport.

But I agree, why cast Quickened Dimension Door when you cast Greater Dimensional Step and teleport as a swift action a bunch of time.

[Frozen_Feet]

How about putting the optimization floor at the actual floor for the Wizard?

Namely, the Blind Idiot Wizard: started out at negative modifiers for Intelligence and Wisdom and never bothered to raise them. Cannot actually cast any spells. Uses his wealth to emulate a fighter.

Then iterate upwards, giving each new Wizard one more point of intelligence so you go through Wizards who only have access to 1st/2nd/3rd/etc. spell levels untill you finally get to 9th?

[Florian]

Why not start with the iconics as a baseline? I think Mialee and Ezren have official stat blocks, at least up to lvl 15. No sense in going lower than _that_.