El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm just wondering if Susan is just going to gain more magic power the longer her hair is, or if there is a limit. If there is no limit, and the longer her hair is means the more power she has, she could grow her hair out and be a Repunzelic badass.

If I am not mistaken, most people cannot grow their hair beyond their knees (give or take). It take a very specific (and relatively rare) gene for head hair to grow beyond your height.

If you think about it, it is weird that our head hair grows that long at all. The hair in the rest of our body, and the hair in every other mammal grows to a certain length, and then stops. I understand that it is believe that hair has long been a sexual signaler, and thus long hair was selected early in our development post-bipedalism.

TL;DR: I think Susan's hair is as long as it can be.

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

If I am not mistaken, most people cannot grow their hair beyond their knees (give or take). It take a very specific (and relatively rare) gene for head hair to grow beyond your height.

If you think about it, it is weird that our head hair grows that long at all. The hair in the rest of our body, and the hair in every other mammal grows to a certain length, and then stops. I understand that it is believe that hair has long been a sexual signaler, and thus long hair was selected early in our development post-bipedalism.

TL;DR: I thing Susan's hair is as long as it can be.

Grey Wolf

I figure as much.

When I first saw the Tangled trailers, I thought the magic hair acted as a "limb" of sort because the trailer I saw, Rapunzel was never seen throwing the hair, just the hair flying out from off screen. So ideally I hope for crazy long animate hair.

[halfeye]

Anyone else think that Diane's hair is going to turn black when she (eventually) empowers?

[Mith]

Anyone else think that Diane's hair is going to turn black when she (eventually) empowers?

I hope not. Susan had a pretty specific reason to have her hair go black, as she fundamentally hates the fact that her hair is blonde, and tries to cover it up. Diane has no reason to do so.

[Qwertystop]

I hope not. Susan had a pretty specific reason to have her hair go black, as she fundamentally hates the fact that her hair is blonde, and tries to cover it up. Diane has no reason to do so.

She associates hair-color-change with powerful magical events (moreso than is realistic, due to her experiences), and is quite impressed by Susan? Could honestly be that it changes because she expects it to.

[halfeye]

I hope not. Susan had a pretty specific reason to have her hair go black, as she fundamentally hates the fact that her hair is blonde, and tries to cover it up. Diane has no reason to do so.

Yeah, but Susan's hair just went blonde when she powered up. So Diane doing the reverse would keep them different. They are sort of a pair, so doing matching things might make thematic sense. Still, Diane ought to run now, she can't power up yet so far as we know.

<edit>

There's a lot of action in this at the moment, I like it.

[Leewei]

Yeah, but Susan's hair just went blonde when she powered up. So Diane doing the reverse would keep them different.

I like this idea - sisters who swap hair colors when powering up.

[Vinyadan]

Ying! Yang! Team Tao, blast off at the speed of Light!

[Lamech]

So... Susan is a Super Saiyan?

Greg's gonna be so jelly.

More of the exact opposite. Her hair turns black by storing magic power, and then when the magic power is used it returns to its normal color. Super Saiyans turn their normal black hair blonde because they are using so much power.

[halfeye]

I do like how much action is happening at the moment, even if the aberations are looking a bit weak. Drop bear vampire is a nice idea, though it could do with being actually dangerous.

[Calemyr]

I do like how much action is happening at the moment, even if the aberations are looking a bit weak. Drop bear vampire is a nice idea, though it could do with being actually dangerous.

I don't know. If it weren't for Diane's warning, Susan would be dead, and the drop bear really had no great interest in killing the girls beyond a cheap shot made in frustration. He wants to do the job and get paid, not have fun or eat a vampire hunter. He was just about to just leave them be, expecting one of the less professional vamps to take them out, but I think Susan now has his full, undivided attention. With Adrian rushing in for the save, I think it's likely this vamp will prove dangerous enough to test Super Susan's limits, unlike the dopey dragon.

I do, however, really like the suggestion that the drop bear is not actually Australian. There's just something refreshing about the idea that this guy sought immortality, found it, noticed that his particular brand looked like a deranged koala, and just went with it. No contrived coincidence, just "Huh, I turn into a koala now. Guess I should learn how to say g'day.".

Also, I'm wondering how Diane will react to this. How I like to envision it is: "Okay, Ellen and Nanase are martial arts wizards... mages... whatever. I can accept that, I've known Nanase long enough not to doubt it. Grace is a shape-shifting superheroine. Sure, why not? Elliot is a gender-shifting superheroine. I... am still trying to process that one, actually. And now you're some kind of magical vampire hunter?! What is wrong with your group?! Don't tell me Justin really is the reincarnation of an ancient pharaoh with an obsession for card games or something..."

[Mith]

Don't tell me Justin really is the reincarnation of an ancient pharaoh with an obsession for card games or something..."

I like the idea, but I don't think Diane is far enough into nerd space to make that joke.

[Rater202]

I like the idea, but I don't think Diane is far enough into nerd space to make that joke.

Diane: "...joke?"

[Lizard Lord]

Is Raven going to teach Susan sword fighting somewhere down the line? After todays strip I can't imagine it not being an option at the very least.

[Vinyadan]

And then Susan will meet Noah and they will get married, and crown their dream of opening a fishery in Anchorage.

[Rater202]

Tedd recently learned that Raven is his Godfather. Raven was supposed to be the one to teach Tedd magic.

Susan might be Raven's descendant and the door is open for him to teach her sword fighting.

Raven is already the teacher of Justin, Nanase, Ellen, and Grace.

Elliot and Sarah are th only ones who don't have a direct in yet, and the night is still young.

Come on Wizard Sensei Raven!

[Calemyr]

I like the idea, but I don't think Diane is far enough into nerd space to make that joke.

I was trying to suggest he has made the claim before to her. One of his earliest displays of magic (though it was just an ASMA move rather than actual magic) was an illusion making him look like Yama Yugi. I could totally see him using nerdy references to run circles around Diane when she's annoying him. While she wouldn't get the reference, she would have remembered the claim (girl is a lot smarter than she lets on to as a rule). Suddenly that dismissed little tidbit doesn't sound quite as absurd after Susan is caught sword fighting a dragon vampire and Nanase has been declared royalty by an extra-dimensional spell-casting gryphon knight and her wife...

[Mith]

I was trying to suggest he has made the claim before to her. One of his earliest displays of magic (though it was just an ASMA move rather than actual magic) was an illusion making him look like Yama Yugi. I could totally see him using nerdy references to run circles around Diane when she's annoying him. While she wouldn't get the reference, she would have remembered the claim (girl is a lot smarter than she lets on to as a rule). Suddenly that dismissed little tidbit doesn't sound quite as absurd after Susan is caught sword fighting a dragon vampire and Nanase has been declared royalty by an extra-dimensional spell-casting gryphon knight and her wife...

Fair enough.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Monday

Show

Well... crap. Looks like we are going the "descended from elves" route for the big secret of magicians after all.

I still hope that Adrian is the grandfather and his son simply looks a lot like him. Otherwise, this makes Adrian the "cheating cheater who cheated", as Edward so elegantly put it, and I am going to be obligated to hate someone I've really liked thus far. My main hope is that Adrian has undeniably black hair while dream daddy had the black&white approximation of brown. Also, I'm still hoping that his problem has been the assumption that everyone he's ever loved has cheated on him, as that builds a heart-wrenching tragedy that has no real villains - the best kind of tragedy, to my mind.

I do kinda wonder what Pandora meant when she asked if Susan was going to help. Was she hoping she'd say no? Was she hoping her son wouldn't be fighting alone? Was she trying to gauge if Susan had Reckless Hero Syndrome like Blaike and Elliot? (Really, something needs to be done to raise awareness of RHS...) Maybe this time she'll play the role she was originally hired for: a magical weapon dispenser. More likely, though, we'll have vamps going after the undefended but potentially threatening Diane and Susan will rush to save him. Proving that she does have a minor case of RHS, but also some common sense (a term so inaccurate as to verge on farce).

That said, I just noticed that she ashed that dragon vampire without a second thought. For someone so heavily scarred by killing something (and supposedly never having had to again), she is doing a good job putting the mental breakdown off until the danger has passed. She's been cool and collected in previous dangers (like the Omega Goo), but those instances a) didn't involve vampires, which are a sore point with her and b) she herself didn't kill anything in them (Ellen took out the Goo). Not a big deal, I just thought it was worth noting.

[JeenLeen]

Spoiler: Monday comic

Show

I imagine that the 'descended from elves' aspect is not exactly biological. From some of Noah's comments, it seems that Raven is (at least to his and his mother's knowledge) sterile. Whether it's that he's biologically incapable of having children or forbidden by Immortal law to sire children is an unknown, I guess, but effectively it's the same (since we can assume Raven'd be killed or punished if he did have kids.) Thus, really doubting Raven is Susan's dad. Though perhaps his dad was somehow related to Raven, such as a child.

I reckon that there's something about tutelage under an elf that leads to him impacting pregnancies. So, in some sense, Raven is Tedd's father (and likely Nanase's), but it's not that he cheated with Tedd's mom. At least, that really doesn't seem to be part of Raven's personality.*

*I do realize that Raven could have matured a lot in the last 15-20 years, but since he is probably centuries old already, the idea that he matured from a 'cheating cheater who cheated' to someone more noble and respectable in such a small sliver of his lifetime seems doubtful. Possible, if he felt great remorse at the break-up of Tedd's parents and that led tot he maturity. But all this seems in line with his wanting to fight in several wars through history (noble sense of wanting to help)... seems inconsistent with being a cheater.

On a less serious note, in reference to yesterday, I do like the idea of Raven training Susan in sword-fighting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I imagine that the 'descended from elves' aspect is not exactly biological. From some of Noah's comments, it seems that Raven is (at least to his and his mother's knowledge) sterile.

Yes, but we know from here that all immortals have been lying to themselves about something. If that something is "magicians are descended from us through our elf children, who turns out are NOT sterile" then what Noah thinks he knows is just lies told to him by Pandora's previous life.

GW

[Calemyr]

Yes, but we know from here that all immortals have been lying to themselves about something. If that something is "magicians are descended from us through our elf children, who turns out are NOT sterile" then what Noah thinks he knows is just lies told to him by Pandora's previous life.

GW

Indeed. The situation is this:

1) We know from Adrian and Pandora that he is not able to serve in the military despite his desperate need to serve the people he lives with. He is given some freedom to defend himself and others from magical threats on a personal scale.
2) Adrian believes himself to be sterile, and his comments on that front have had a bitter subtext to them.
3) The god of magic told Pandora that her past self lied to her about one fact, regarding magic and the role bloodlines play in it, and the revelation shocked her.
4) When Pandora was seen next, she is utterly broken by the revelation because it caused her to lie to Adrian and she is afraid that her son will hate her when the truth comes out.
5) Jerry Loki Zeus was captured by Pandora shortly afterwards and has since become neurotically obsessed with protecting Susan and Diane from everything.
6) When Susan chooses to engage the vampires, Zeus's first thought is how Pandora was going to kill him.
7) Now Susan states that daddy dearest looked uncomfortably like Adrian's elven (younger) self.

All that adds up to paint a pretty simple picture: A simple fact Adrian Raven has accepted and gospel, taught to him by his mother, is a lie, and the truth carries serious consequences for him. An obvious conclusion that can be drawn from this is that he is, in fact, not sterile. Why would that matter? If he has had fathered children that he didn't recognize as his own because he honestly believed he couldn't do so. From there you can extrapolate the heartbreak what such a misunderstanding could lead to, much less the consequences when it's later clarified.

More to the point, Pandora is actively protecting Susan despite her not playing an active role in the ancient immortal's plans. Pandora has never displayed any particular interest in Susan, and now we know that she's not only assaulting immortals found at her bedside but said immortal has been terrorized into taking his role as her guardian deadly seriously. She has only ever gotten that serious when it comes to Adrian, as she proudly uses "for my family" as her motivation for much of what she does of her own volition. She may like Sarah, but she treats Susan like family. And since Zeus believed there was an acceptable likelihood that Diane was Susan's sister, it carries over to her to some degree.

There are a few reasons that I worry about Adrian being Susan's father:
1) Edward Verres openly despises "cheaters", with surprising bitterness even for him.
2) Nanase's mother hates Adrian.
3) Adrian was very close to Edward and Noriko and says with conviction that he's the reason they'll never get back together.

That paints a possibility that Adrian could plausibly be Susan's father and a philanderer. It's all too human a failing, which would make even more sense for a supposedly sterile man with eternal youth, cursed to see any and all loved ones age and pass while he remains in his prime. There are a number of examples ranging from the Highlander franchise to the Witcher, I believe...

I hope not as, as I've said, he'd drop from the top of my favorites list to the bottom in that case. It's also not Dan's style. But the framework is in place that this could be a plausible outcome.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why are you calling Zeus "Loki"?

[Calemyr]

Why are you calling Zeus "Loki"?

Ah. That would be for a very simple, very logical reason. I screwed up. I tried to type that fast, and mixed up the name. Not only is Loki a god whose name sounds a little like Jerry, he's a trickster which would have been fitting. He strikes me as a Loki rather than a Zeus, and I was too dumb to double check such a simple thing as a character's name.

[JeenLeen]

That paints a possibility that Adrian could plausibly be Susan's father and a philanderer. It's all too human a failing, which would make even more sense for a supposedly sterile man with eternal youth, cursed to see any and all loved ones age and pass while he remains in his prime. There are a number of examples ranging from the Highlander franchise to the Witcher, I believe...

I hope not as, as I've said, he'd drop from the top of my favorites list to the bottom in that case. It's also not Dan's style. But the framework is in place that this could be a plausible outcome.

Yep, that's a persuasive argument. I hadn't factored in why Pandora would care so much about Susan and Diane.
The only big flaw I see in it is that Susan was obviously born and her father knew about her, so if Adrian were her dad, he must've known he was her kid or believed that his wife cheated on him. Ooh... what if he started cheating because he was hurt by believing his wife cheated on him?
Wait, no, that wouldn't really work, since then he couldn't have impregnated both Susan and Diane's moms at about the same time, since it takes time to figure out one is pregnant.

Also, based on Edward's background checks and being friends/former-friends with Adrian, he'd know that Adrian were Susan's legal father. I think that would have come up at some point, since Edward (presumably) also believes elves are sterile.

[Calemyr]

Yep, that's a persuasive argument. I hadn't factored in why Pandora would care so much about Susan and Diane.
The only big flaw I see in it is that Susan was obviously born and her father knew about her, so if Adrian were her dad, he must've known he was her kid or believed that his wife cheated on him. Ooh... what if he started cheating because he was hurt by believing his wife cheated on him?
Wait, no, that wouldn't really work, since then he couldn't have impregnated both Susan and Diane's moms at about the same time, since it takes time to figure out one is pregnant.

Also, based on Edward's background checks and being friends/former-friends with Adrian, he'd know that Adrian were Susan's legal father. I think that would have come up at some point, since Edward (presumably) also believes elves are sterile.

I'm still favoring the "extra-dimensional refugee" background for Diane. Basically, that her mother came from another reality and died giving birth. This is primarily for two reasons: First, "almost identical" twins being tied to extra-dimensional duplicates has been a recurring theme (Ellen's dream life, Lord Tedd, Beta Tedd, Magnus/Terra, etc). Second, despite this being a major fact in their lives, nobody has brought it up at all. At. All. That's really suspicious from a narrative standpoint. Diane literally is Susan, just not our dimension's Susan.

As for Adrian, I do think there are problems with him being the father, but they're not beyond explanation, particularly if Adrian kept his private (as Mr. Pompoms) and adventuring (as Adrian Raven) lives separate. Given the fact that Dan greatly regretted going too dark with Sister 2 and forced himself to kill Damien just to be sure that storyline stays dead, I just don't see him taking a character like Adrian down a route he couldn't be redeemed from. Heck, this is a guy who made the puppy-saving "Good" Tom because he felt manipulative "Bad" Tom was giving people named Thomas a bad name. I'd be impressed (disturbed but impressed) if he could make a major character in his story a serial adulterer.

That said, having him make horrible decisions because his lovers always "proved" unfaithful would be reasonable. He can try to come back from that by showing his descendants the attention he should have given his children. That would make him a flawed but likable character.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: Monday

Show

Well... crap. Looks like we are going the "descended from elves" route for the big secret of magicians after all.

I still hope that Adrian is the grandfather and his son simply looks a lot like him. Otherwise, this makes Adrian the "cheating cheater who cheated", as Edward so elegantly put it, and I am going to be obligated to hate someone I've really liked thus far. My main hope is that Adrian has undeniably black hair while dream daddy had the black&white approximation of brown. Also, I'm still hoping that his problem has been the assumption that everyone he's ever loved has cheated on him, as that builds a heart-wrenching tragedy that has no real villains - the best kind of tragedy, to my mind.

I do kinda wonder what Pandora meant when she asked if Susan was going to help. Was she hoping she'd say no? Was she hoping her son wouldn't be fighting alone? Was she trying to gauge if Susan had Reckless Hero Syndrome like Blaike and Elliot? (Really, something needs to be done to raise awareness of RHS...) Maybe this time she'll play the role she was originally hired for: a magical weapon dispenser. More likely, though, we'll have vamps going after the undefended but potentially threatening Diane and Susan will rush to save him. Proving that she does have a minor case of RHS, but also some common sense (a term so inaccurate as to verge on farce).

That said, I just noticed that she ashed that dragon vampire without a second thought. For someone so heavily scarred by killing something (and supposedly never having had to again), she is doing a good job putting the mental breakdown off until the danger has passed. She's been cool and collected in previous dangers (like the Omega Goo), but those instances a) didn't involve vampires, which are a sore point with her and b) she herself didn't kill anything in them (Ellen took out the Goo). Not a big deal, I just thought it was worth noting.

Spoiler

Show

The Dragon doesn't look like a person. Psychologically,it's easier to kill a frightening animal or monster than it is to kill something that looks like a person.

Yes, but we know from here that all immortals have been lying to themselves about something. If that something is "magicians are descended from us through our elf children, who turns out are NOT sterile" then what Noah thinks he knows is just lies told to him by Pandora's previous life.

GW

Spoiler

Show

Not Magicians.

Heka states that it is specifically seers, other wizards, and people that have strong affinities to kinds of magic are all descendedd from "thing that shocked Pandora."

So, I think being a seer, Wizard, or having an affinty might be a case of "you've got human magic but also a teensy bit of Immortal Magic and that makes your magic special."

[Douglas]

I really doubt that Adrian is Susan's father, the fact of Susan's dad recognizing her as his own doesn't fit with that. My bet is that he's her grandfather or great grandfather. He's old enough for it by a large margin, and him spurning his child and cutting contact because he believes it can't possibly be his child would perfectly explain why he doesn't know anything about further descendants.

It's possible he could be Diane's father, though.

[Vinyadan]

OK, we'll get the explanation in a couple of years

[Rater202]

...I will be so disapointed if this arc doesn't lead into a "definitive" Ellen family tree that makes all of the main cast and a decent amount of the supporting cast "related" by Grace logic.

(If Raven is Susan's grandfather, this makes Noah her uncle and Tedd her god-uncle.)