El Goonish ShIVe: Damn It, Dan, Stop Teasing Us!

[Lamech]

So people are mentioning that magic doesn't care about biology because Cheerleadra is super strong. Which is true. But I suspect it does that by burning up magical energy. See: Not-Tengu. Plus magic DOES have physical considerations when working on stuff: See Ted's watches not working with a normal level of mana, but a wand possibly doing so.

Now, I'm sure someone talented and clever could design a form that was better at combat stuff than either a male or female form would be without needing to burn magic. Except over in Magus-world they apparently can't even design a car or really understand the inner workings of magic, and biological beings are hard. The designer didn't leave any source code or documentation for them. Its almost like they were designed by taking a bunch of working forks, merging them semi-randomly to produce a number of new forks, randomly introducing some changes in the code, occasionally by completely deleting, copying or moving a chunk of it, then using some partially random algorithm to pick a new set of forks to repeat the process with until you got a strong general AI.

Plus, we don't know what the rules of magic are over in Magus-verse. So we don't know how well they can willy-nilly design forms. Probably not as well as Ted can.

So maybe Magus is just an A-hole, but not strictly wrong. On the other hand I suspect flying is easier if you're lighter.

[Rater202]

...Does Ellen know about Tedd's spell? If so, that basically deflates Magus's argument since if she wanted to be male, she could ask Tedd to perma change her back.

...Magus also is apparently not considering that Ellen might be upset to wake up in a body that Nanase, who Ellen loves, would not be physically attracted to(Nanase has confirmed that she was never attracted to Elliot when they were together.)

[Mechalich]

...Does Ellen know about Tedd's spell? If so, that basically deflates Magus's argument since if she wanted to be male, she could ask Tedd to perma change her back.

He seems to think Ellen is being heavily socially pressured to conform to her female gender identity, because while society is able to accommodate the existence of Elliot's mysterious twin sister it's not able to accommodate the existence of Elliot's clone. This is a rather bogus argument - having a long lost male twin is no less likely than having a long lost female twin.

It seems very clear that Magus is unaware or doesn't understand that Ellen doesn't have Elliot's childhood experiences, she has the alt-universe ones that Nioi implanted in her and that experience was more vivid than the memories she inherited from Elliot. Ellen, when created, had a "newborn soul," but she had Elliot's memories. Elliot has a (largely) male gender identity, so drawing on that it would make a certain sense that Ellen would have a male mental identity to draw upon. However, that identity go overridden with a set of memories implanted by Nioi, which had a female identity from birth and no male identifiers. So not only is Magus being overbearing and imposing his own viewpoint on another person, he's doing so based on the wrong data.

Also, going back to read old comics and check into this allowed me to re-discover the existence of the Ellen of the Beta Tedd universe, who appears to be comfortably female, which is further evidence that Magus doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to alternate universe variants.

This isn't really surprising, Elliot (core universe) is not the most gifted person when it comes to logical reasoning, he tends to trust he emotional intuition instead. This usually works out because he has good instincts. Magus, deep down, may share that trait, but he's all out of sorts right now due to projecting the context of his universe onto a different one, lacking critical information that derives from a third universe he probably doesn't even know exists, and months of intense stress putting him on the edge of a psychotic break. Certainly Magus shares the logical reasoning weakness, since he's actively provoking a magical battle inside the mystic equivalent of an ammo dump.

[Forum Explorer]

There's also the very important fact of even if Magus is 100% correct, that still doesn't mean he should assume that he's correct. He needs permission first, rather then just zapping Ellen and leaving.

[Lamech]

There's also the very important fact of even if Magus is 100% correct, that still doesn't mean he should assume that he's correct. He needs permission first, rather then just zapping Ellen and leaving.

This is probably the most important point. No zapping people without informed consent!

[Fyraltari]

Oh carp he has ACTUAL ARGUMENTS! RUN FOR COVER!

Also, going back to read old comics and check into this allowed me to re-discover the existence of the Ellen of the Beta Tedd universe, who appears to be comfortably female, which is further evidence that Magus doesn't know what he's talking about with regard to alternate universe variants.

When did he mention alternate universe variants?

Certainly Magus shares the logical reasoning weakness, since he's actively provoking a magical battle inside the mystic equivalent of an ammo dump.

He is? Standing still and pointing fingers, "J'accuse" style is provocking a battle now?
Note that Elliot is the only one using exclamation marks in today's comic. Magus is calmish.

There's also the very important fact of even if Magus is 100% correct, that still doesn't mean he should assume that he's correct. He needs permission first, rather then just zapping Ellen and leaving.

He isn't trying to zap anyone at the moment. I'm pretty sure that when he says "fix her before I leave" he means the universe not the building.

[Drascin]

He isn't trying to zap anyone at the moment. I'm pretty sure that when he says "fix her before I leave" he means the universe not the building.

No, he's pretty clearly absolutely intending to zap her without consent and only has not done so yet because he's busy angrily explaining himself. If Elliot hadn't been there to rant at Ellen would have been zapped into a dude's body without her consent by now.

I mean, he's straight up saying that he knows better than whatever Ellen says, because whatever Ellen says is purely based off social pressure and not what she really wants. "I know what you need better than you do" is not an argument that leads to much respect of consent and personal decisions.

[Qwertystop]

No, he's pretty clearly absolutely intending to zap her without consent and only has not done so yet because he's busy angrily explaining himself. If Elliot hadn't been there to rant at Ellen would have been zapped into a dude's body without her consent by now.

I mean, he's straight up saying that he knows better than whatever Ellen says, because whatever Ellen says is purely based off social pressure and not what she really wants. "I know what you need better than you do" is not an argument that leads to much respect of consent and personal decisions.

Not quite. He's saying he knows better than what Ellen said to Elliot. Hypothetically, what Ellen says to him (when Elliot is out of earshot) could be enough to convince him if he could be convinced that she's not pressured into saying it.

Two scenarios come to mind, one bringing in the information we (and Elliot, and Ellen) know, the other sticking just to what Magus knows.

Sticking to what Magus knows:
Magus talks to Ellen out of earshot of Elliot. Magus tells Ellen that, if she wants him to, he can permanently change her default to male, leave, and then she goes and lies to Elliot saying that Magus wouldn't listen to her. In this scenario (where everything is actually how Magus thinks it is), Ellen has an excuse for the change, can't be forced into reverting it (because no such options exist), and can still use temporary stuff if social pressure requires it (which Magus seems to see as not so much of a problem as long as the default is correct). If Ellen tells him that she wants to stay female under this scenario, he might actually listen to her.

Of course, if we bring in the information he doesn't have:
Magus talks to Ellen out of earshot of Elliot. Magus tells Ellen the same stuff as in the former scenario. Ellen tells Magus that she's had that option for months and honestly doesn't want the change, and also that she's got an entire childhood of memories from growing up female and is entirely comfortable as she is. Magus either sees sense, or transforms her anyway (at which point it gets reverted within half an hour of returning to Moperville and seeing Tedd).

I think either Elliot or Magus could reasonably suggest waiting for Ellen to wake up and asking her. Elliot as a "get this guy to slow down and see sense", Magus to get Elliot to stay out of the way. Either way, Magus would then expect the first of my two scenarios, and Elliot would expect the second.

[Kish]

I don't believe Tedd has the power to transform anyone else's default form. His mark lets him change his sex--not other people's. In the very unlikely event that Magus changes Ellen's default form to male, she'll need to be regularly zapped back to being female for the rest of her life or until some other "not currently standard for her world" type of magic is used to undo what Magus did.

I also think getting Magus to wait for her to wake up is going to be a lot harder than just asking him to.

[Douglas]

Tedd can put his mark's spell into a wand, and in fact already has. Anyone can use that wand to cast that spell, changing their own default form. Tedd also thinks he knows how to make wands that change default form in general, having learned how his mark's spell does it by using his Seer insight on it.

[Southern Cross]

Actually, according to Tedd, he CAN change other people's sex by touching them, but he can't change their default form. He also thinks that he can make a wand that would change other people's default form, though.

[Vinyadan]

Was destroying the diamond a way to make it impossible for Ellen to go back to being a woman, after having been "fixed" (which sounds like she's poultry BTW)?

[Kish]

As was just established, Tedd actually can make a wand to change her back, which was a line I didn't remember (thanks, Douglas).

[Kish]

I also think getting Magus to wait for her to wake up is going to be a lot harder than just asking him to.

My mistake. Looks like we're going with 100% wacky misunderstandings between Elliott and Magus.

[Fyraltari]

Aaaaaaaand he tried to permanently alter the sex of an uncounscious person. Elliot, kick his ass.

Was destroying the diamond a way to make it impossible for Ellen to go back to being a woman, after having been "fixed" (which sounds like she's poultry BTW)?

I don't think so. Magus says that he modified the effect (most likely so that his new body would look like his old one and more importantly don't have another newborn Elliot soul in it) and that the immortal (likely Pandora) told him to expect the diamond to shatteras a result. The Diamond is more trouble than it is worth anyway, the Dunkels wouldn't have used it (and end up with yet another Ellen/Elliot ?).

Also Abraham is an idiot.

[Drascin]

My mistake. Looks like we're going with 100% wacky misunderstandings between Elliott and Magus.

I mean, at the point of openly saying "I don't have time to wait for something as minor as consent on a permanent body change on someone" we're kind of not in misunderstanding territory anymore. We're on "you, sir, need to chill the heck out and if that requires punching you unconscious that is honestly a fairly proportionate response" territory.

[Kish]

I apparently need to explain why I suddenly reversed position.

He said he was going to try to "wa--" Dan, in the commentary, called out that we should look at what "wa" might be the beginning of.

Thus: I was wrong. He didn't intend to alter the sex of an unconscious person. He intended to wake Ellen up.

[Douglas]

I apparently need to explain why I suddenly reversed position.

He said he was going to try to "wa--" Dan, in the commentary, called out that we should look at what "wa" might be the beginning of.

Thus: I was wrong. He didn't intend to alter the sex of an unconscious person. He intended to wake Ellen up.

Yep. And I'd bet the percentage of readers that jumped to the same conclusion as Elliot is very high.

[Vinyadan]

1. Hard to read page.

2. Those boobs are ridiculous. "I am the defensor of goodness! I am the lightbulb of the universe! Also, out of nowhere, I am bulkier than usual, and I will smother you with my breast!". Bulkier, yeah. Boobs of rage. They're funny, but also out of place in this dramatic arc.

[John Cribati]

High muscle mass without fat to support it is decorative, not effective. So yes, this Not-Cheerleadra Elliott being bulkier than regular Cheerleadra makes a certain amoint of sense. And since breasts are basically clumps of fat that humans have been conditioned to find pleasing, it makes sense that they be larger with his higher fat ratio.

[Calemyr]

Also consider Magic's grasp of subtlety. It doesn't do finesse well, it favors big things. You want to be female, you'll be female in every language - especially braille. With the exception of Tedd, whose androgyny is an explicit running joke (which Magic seems to understand), Magically generated female forms have gender-identifying traits dialed up in order to remove ambiguity, with shape/silhouette being a primary identifier since the invention of pants. Also, Dan has a specific art style and probably assumes (likely accurately) that a good chunk of his fan base enjoys his work specifically for that style. I'm a narrative addict, myself, so it's the characters and their story that attract me - not how they're drawn. But that's just me.

For my part, I can see both sides of this fight.

Of course Magus was going to try to wake her before doing anything. His dialogue has made it abundantly clear that he has a sense of morals and a desire to atone for the things he's done wrong. He explicitly kidnapped Ashley just so the Dunkels could be informed of what was done and why, in case his possession of Elliot kept him from remembering the event, including going into unnecessary detail to confess to crimes nobody knew (or needed to know) he committed. Given half a chance, he would have rather been up front with them in the first place, but the risk that posed to his plans was too great. And more or less impossible.

Of course Elliot isn't going to trust him, though. For all his moralizing and hand-wringing, Magus has made several life-changing decisions for people unilaterally and without much hesitation, all for his personal gain. If he couldn't wake Ellen up, he almost certainly would have transformed her with little more than an apology. Her consent is desirable but not as vital as his personal absolution for creating her and forcing her to live (what he believes is) a lie. Forced to make a choice between the two objectives, such as the imminent arrival of government agents, and he'd be hard pressed to see it as a decision. For his part, Elliot had a split second to decide between "trust" and "protect", and that wasn't much of a decision either.

I am interested in seeing the role Ashley plays in this sequence of events. Will she try to wake Ellen up, try to drag her to safety, or stare out the window in awe of her badass boyfriend-slash-girlfriend? Or, and I dread this thought, will she try to use an artifact to help Ellen or Elliot and cause a lot of trouble in the process? I rather doubt it, as she's been shown to be exceptionally sensible when books aren't involved, but nobody is without senseless moments and they often crop up at the worst times. No matter what she does, I imagine it will better inform us of her character.

Also, I am wondering if Ashley/Ellen run afoul of Sirleck on the way out. We didn't see the body and DBZ rules apply. Being trapped in the building alone with a pissed off, injured, and incorporeal vampire who needs a body (and already knows better than to try Ellen again) might be the one situation where her screwing with artifacts she doesn't understand becomes fully understandable...

"Hey look it's my cousin Ellen from my mom's side.
-I thought your cousin Ellen was a girl? I mean Ellen's a girl name right?
-I have two cousin named Ellen one (from my dad's side) is a girl, the other is a boy, his parents thought he was going to be a girl, actually, the doctor got it wrong. It's rare but it happens. They didn't know at the time that my other cousin was called Ellen too. We call him Magus, it's a thing from when we were kids.
-Wow, what are the odds of that! You look a lot like each other, if he wasn't blonde I'd swear yu were twins.
-You think so? Everyone says that but I just don't see it."

AAnd then everybody just calls him Magus.

Life ain't easy for a boy named Sue Ellen.

This argument amuses me, though, because it reminds my of my own life a little.

Spoiler: Silly personal sidestory

Show

I have two uncles named Jim on my mother's side. Apparently my grandfather's second wife named their son Jim in a successful bid to cut his half-brother out of family memory. Not a nice person, my grandmother. It was kind of weird when it came out, but my mother at least finds it amusing that she could introduce herself with "this is my brother Jim and this is my other brother Jim", so there's that.

[Rater202]

Also, I am wondering if Ashley/Ellen run afoul of Sirleck on the way out. We didn't see the body and DBZ rules apply. Being trapped in the building alone with a pissed off, injured, and incorporeal vampire who needs a body (and already knows better than to try Ellen again) might be the one situation where her screwing with artifacts she doesn't understand becomes fully understandable...

Dan confirmed Sirleck's death in the commentary and we did see him burning up just like all the other dead vampires.

[Drascin]

Yep. And I'd bet the percentage of readers that jumped to the same conclusion as Elliot is very high.

Honestly, in Elliot's place I wouldn't have let Magus even get that far in the sentence. The punch would have gone the moment he pointed a casting hand at Ellen.

[Calemyr]

Dan confirmed Sirleck's death in the commentary and we did see him burning up just like all the other dead vampires.

That is very likely true. However...

1) The line between the pyrotechnics of Magus's spell and the pyrotechnics of Sirleck's demise is a little fuzzy. Whether Sirleck burst into flames and died or Magus went for the kill with a fireball isn't explicitly clear in-comic.

2) Sirleck did not leave any ash behind, unless it's the debris that is explicitly outside the window. Ash would have counted as "the body" in this case. What we see out the window could be his fading ashes or comic shorthand for falling debris. All of which, I might remind you, is outside the window and therefore most of the context remains outside of our vision.

3) Dan said Sirleck is dead, yes. He also suggested today that Magus is quoting a Muppet bear infamous for bad comedy. Take him literally and Sileck is dead and Elliot hates Jim Henson. Take him sarcastically and he might as well have said "There's no way he could have survived that." or "What could possibly go wrong?" or "The rest of this will be a milk run.". Should Sirleck pop up and attack Ashley, you can expect the commentary to read something equivalent to "<memepic>Oh Snap!</memepic> Oh noes. Sirleck is still alive. How could this have happen. I is surprise." Tell me I'm wrong, I dare you.

That said, your interpretation of the available evidence is entirely valid and most likely correct. I simply mean to suggest the opposite reading also has merit. Perhaps I am a bit biased, of course, as I'd like to think Sirleck was built up enough not to simply go out like a Yamcha.

He could at least go out like a Krillin.

[Lord Raziere]

Honestly, in Elliot's place I wouldn't have let Magus even get that far in the sentence. The punch would have gone the moment he pointed a casting hand at Ellen.

Yeeeaaaaah, I'm right there with you. While Magus has an argument, from Elliot's perspective this is the guy who just went off on a rant about an alternate version of himself with a different life, whom Elliot and readers perspective seems to be happy with how things are, especially since they are basically the same person you'd think that if Ellen had any problems she'd confide in him about it? And is now pointing a casting hand when he could just try to shake her to wake her up or something instead of a fancy spell.

I mean Magus is kind of ignoring that if Ellen did change back to a man, it would get into questions about the real difference is between Elliot and Ellen is then, complicate everyone's lives and kind of provoke questions about why are there twins of Elliot now and where did Ellen go, and Ellen would have identity problems about it, just different ones since everyone would keep mistaking her for Elliot when in the past she has wanted to stick out and not be him since Elliot is already there. because if I remember, the entire Ellen story so far has been her wanting to be her own person and do things differently from Elliot. I kind of feel her priorities are less "get back to whatever normal is" and more "find out who I can be if I'm no longer the person I was created from." and I kind've feel it would leave Nanase stuck up a creek. I feel as if she would be involved in this considering they're girlfriends.

Like yes, perhaps Magus has an argument, but the visual evidence to me says otherwise about her emotional state and what her priorities are, which is what Elliot would have to work with. There is also the possibility that Magus is projecting a bit? Like what if Magus got railroaded into being a man so that he can be a battle-magus and is trying to justify it but deep down actually hates that it happened to him?

[Calemyr]

Yeeeaaaaah, I'm right there with you. While Magus has an argument, from Elliot's perspective this is the guy who just went off on a rant about an alternate version of himself with a different life, whom Elliot and readers perspective seems to be happy with how things are, especially since they are basically the same person you'd think that if Ellen had any problems she'd confide in him about it? And is now pointing a casting hand when he could just try to shake her to wake her up or something instead of a fancy spell.

I mean Magus is kind of ignoring that if Ellen did change back to a man, it would get into questions about the real difference is between Elliot and Ellen is then, complicate everyone's lives and kind of provoke questions about why are there twins of Elliot now and where did Ellen go, and Ellen would have identity problems about it, just different ones since everyone would keep mistaking her for Elliot when in the past she has wanted to stick out and not be him since Elliot is already there. because if I remember, the entire Ellen story so far has been her wanting to be her own person and do things differently from Elliot. I kind of feel her priorities are less "get back to whatever normal is" and more "find out who I can be if I'm no longer the person I was created from." and I kind've feel it would leave Nanase stuck up a creek. I feel as if she would be involved in this considering they're girlfriends.

Like yes, perhaps Magus has an argument, but the visual evidence to me says otherwise about her emotional state and what her priorities are, which is what Elliot would have to work with. There is also the possibility that Magus is projecting a bit? Like what if Magus got railroaded into being a man so that he can be a battle-magus and is trying to justify it but deep down actually hates that it happened to him?

There's also the second life stuff. I don't know exactly how much Elliot knows about it (or how much Magus has overheard), but that right there largely invalidates Magus's opinion. Yes, at one point Ellen was a gender-flipped clone of Elliot who went on a rampage and then tried to commit heroic suicide because she believed she wasn't going to last all that long anyway. She had a male's memories and a male perspective and she honestly was kinda strong-armed into accepting a female role despite her male origins. The dreams changed that, as Ellen now has a full eighteen years of memories as a girl that are separate and feel more real to her than those she shares with Elliot. Ellen is no longer just "a man trapped in a woman's body and then screwed over by circumstances", she is her own person and she is female. Hopefully she'll have an opportunity to explain this to Magus.

[Ibrinar]

You know 18 years of memories from another world pretty much means she remembers a bunch of people she will never see again because she isn't in that world. Was that ever brought up?

[Fyraltari]

1. Hard to read page.

Agreed, the first time around I thought Magus at shot at Elliot who transormed amidst the blast, cinematic-style.
It took reading Kish's post and rereading the strip that I realized what was actually happening.

2. Those boobs are ridiculous. "I am the defensor of goodness! I am the lightbulb of the universe! Also, out of nowhere, I am bulkier than usual, and I will smother you with my breast!". Bulkier, yeah. Boobs of rage. They're funny, but also out of place in this dramatic arc.

I think it's meant to look like Ellen whose pectoral area is quite generous.

[Mith]

You know 18 years of memories from another world pretty much means she remembers a bunch of people she will never see again because she isn't in that world. Was that ever brought up?

IIRC, She reaches the age of 17 or so and ends up "going to college." There was the plot point of her best friend visiting as well.

[Calemyr]

You know 18 years of memories from another world pretty much means she remembers a bunch of people she will never see again because she isn't in that world. Was that ever brought up?

Hmm... yes and no, if I recall correctly. I believe she stated that her last dream finalized the memories in a way, kinda like the last episode of a good TV show. She got to say goodbye and all that closure business. And she believes that she may even meet them again one day, because she lives an absurd life and absurd things happen around her regularly. But when she references her second life memories, it's always about her experiences there rather about the friends she had those experiences with (Archie not withstanding).

So, I think she does remember them and probably misses them, but it's like going to college. You leave a lot of your old life behind and start a new life. You feel their absence but it isn't long before that doesn't hurt so much and bit by bit you move on.

Also, a lot of the people she "grew up with" likely have counterparts in her waking life, like Tedd, so it isn't exactly the same as losing everyone you grew up with, and it happened incrementally so her waking mind had time to make sense of it all. Outside of a stated problem keeping track of which history is which, all it really did was provide her with a childhood of experiences as a girl so that she feels like she grew up a woman as opposed to a recent event.