afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Efrate]

Fiendish codex II lords of hell details the law chaos war a bit, along with the pact primeval and fall of Asmodeaus. afro might know more but thats a place to start.

[Edreyn]

Nice, will read it! Thank you.

[Eldan]

1) What happens to the souls of creatures who are sacrificed to a deity they don't worship?
Do they end up in the realm of the said deity, or they go to their "usual" afterlife, or something else?

2) Where I can read more about war of Law and Chaos, that predated Blood War?

3) Can the length of Blood War, or Law-Chaos War, be measured in a sensible number of years, epochs, eras, modron marches or something else? If so, what those number will be?

4) Are there any articles or books about Factions in Sigil, while there still were many of them, before Lady's interruption?

There is an inofficial Planescape timeline, based on various campaign settings and vague mentions here and there. There's a few versions of it, like here and here, but what it seems to boil down to is that it seems as if the DND timeline seems to go back at least 100'000 years.

The most relevant sources are "Hellbound: The Blood War" and "Faces of Evil" for Planescape, with bits and pieces in Planes of Chaos, Planes of Law and Planes of Conflict but those are second edition boxed sets and kind of difficult to get. The two Fiendish Codices are your best bet for third edition.

As for the old factions: basically nothing, outside some fan material. We know there were a lot, one or two are namedropped sometimes, but not much is known.

[Edreyn]

This also seems interesting. Thank you too.

EDIT: I remember that in Planescape Torment, there is one man from Sensates Hall saying something like(not exact quote): "Imagine that your life is a pebble in the ocean, which is a pebble in another ocean and so...".

I once did try to compare mass of one gram of water to a mass of all water on earth. Then I multiplied it again because it's "a drop in another ocean".
The number should have above 1000 zeroes in it. So I think that it's much longer then 1 million years.

[Eldan]

It's not really about the length of time, I suppose. By all estimates, mortals have only been on the planes for a few ten thousand years, as have most relevant events. The war is huge in scope, not necessarily unfathomably old. There are quotes about the Blood War that state that entire Prime Worlds (planets) are overrun or destroyed in it on a regular basis. It is probably fought simultaneously on more fronts than there are people on Earth. But of course, the War of Law and Chaos was before mortals were a thing and it isn't really possible to estimate how long it was.

[Edreyn]

So, you think he means the scale and not the length of time? Actually, I never saw it this way. Okay, I will keep reading things you suggested.

[Alea]

I’m sorry, but there are so many flaws in your reasoning here:

• Your quotation, though a paraphrase, still uses “the ocean,” not “all the water in the world,” which is dramatically larger figure.
• He doesn’t specify which ocean, and for that matter, even if he did say “world,” he didn’t specify which one. While modern Earth is accessible from the Planescape, it is exceedingly unlikely that any character in Planescape: Torment would actually be referring to it.
• The guy is being metaphorical to begin with, and there is no reason to expect he is speaking with particular precision here. He’d have to tell us how large a pebble and how large an ocean for any kind of mathematics to make any sense.
• Even if he intended to be precise in his statement, he’s also welcome to be wrong. He almost-certainly didn’t even try the math you have tried, and even if he had he’s allowed to make an error doing so, or to be wrong about the size and/or age of the universe.
• “Your life” to a sensate is not a measure of time—or space, for that matter. It’s a measure of experience—how many events you have taken part in, how many places you have seen, how many people you have interacted with, and so on. The entire raison d’être for the Sensate faction is to maximize those experiences. And in a multiverse with an infinite number of planes and/or layers, many of those infinite in size, he is actually underselling things quite dramatically—but since he’s being metaphorical and just trying to give you maybe something your mortal mind can comprehend about the scope of the multiverse, that’s really quite forgivable.
• And, on top of that, it must be said: Planescape: Torment isn’t, strictly speaking, canon. It mostly jives with canon, and is a fantastic representation of Sigil and the Planes, but it does get some things wrong here and there and it was not accorded canon status that would make those “wrong” things instead “new data points” or what have you.

[Bronk]

It's not really about the length of time, I suppose. By all estimates, mortals have only been on the planes for a few ten thousand years, as have most relevant events. The war is huge in scope, not necessarily unfathomably old. There are quotes about the Blood War that state that entire Prime Worlds (planets) are overrun or destroyed in it on a regular basis. It is probably fought simultaneously on more fronts than there are people on Earth. But of course, the War of Law and Chaos was before mortals were a thing and it isn't really possible to estimate how long it was.

Those linked Planescape timelines don't really match up well with Spelljammer timelines though... those go back millions of years, at least according to the novels.

[afroakuma]

1) What happens to the souls of creatures who are sacrificed to a deity they don't worship?

Depends on methodology - a thinaun blade would trap the soul, for example, and some rites specifically involve ganking the soul for devouring. Your average orc shaman murdering someone in the name of Gruumsh isn't going to accomplish anything in terms of redirecting traffic, though.

2) Where I can read more about war of Law and Chaos, that predated Blood War?

These threads! Probably still the best place for that. Fiendish Codices are alright for it too but we've had years at this point to go over it.

3) Can the length of Blood War, or Law-Chaos War, be measured in a sensible number of years, epochs, eras, modron marches or something else?

Not meaningfully by us.

4) Are there any articles or books about Factions in Sigil, while there still were many of them, before Lady's interruption?

To be clear, do you mean before the Faction War when she ejected all of them, or before the first upheaval where she limited their number? If the former, plenty; if the latter, no, but you can find some sects here and there and get a rough sense of the kinds of interests they may have represented.

Those linked Planescape timelines don't really match up well with Spelljammer timelines though... those go back millions of years, at least according to the novels.

Spelljammer novels can be really hard to work with... I do try to treat them as reasonably canonical, though.

[Edreyn]

Afroakuma, thank you for answering. And even a bigger thank you for those Planescape threads, I really enjoy reading them.
As for the discussion about Blood War, and comparing it to a drop in the ocean, I agree that the person who says so is being metaphorical, but in any case, I think that Blood War is longer then million years. People can imagine a million of something, and Blood War is supposed to be unimaginable.

UPD: New questions.

1) The Lady's control over portals in Sigil is absolute. But what about the portals other sides? Can a powerful entity force close portals from non-Lady's side? And, prevent from new portals appearing on that world. For example block portals to planes of water and air, since Sigil doesn't have their own sources of those. It's just an example, I understand that Lady can get such things from anywhere else. But sure there is something that Sigil needs, and can only get from one place? Why not to blockade Sigil and make some demands?

Also, there are enough chaotic creatures in the Multiverse, who could try it just to see what happens. The Lady's power is, again, absolute, but only in her own boundaries. What she can do if her portal is blocked or closed from another side?

2) Is there way to track who was petitioner before death? He can't do it on his own, but maybe there are ways for someone else to do it? Is it possible to track your loved deceased great grandfather in Bytopia? And if it's possible, can one prepare for this in advance, like store his memories in a sensory stone, and ask someone to bring it to their new self?

3) This isn't really a question, it's rather my idea that could fit into Planescape adventure, and I am interested how you find it.
Except everything else, Sigil has pure law factions and pure chaos factions, that fight each other tirelessly. And, so far, lawful factions couldn't achieve anything. As I understand, it's mostly Harmonium who tries to literally fight them, by killing their members. But here's my idea: if Xaositects or Anarchists are so much chaotic, can't they be defeated by "overloading" them with law? Like sending in the infiltrators that won't kill or sabotage, but instead will organize those factions. Those factions, once they get too much of order in their ranks, they will simply stop being chaotic, lose their ideals and just cease to exist. Is this idea workable, at least theoretically?

[ShurikVch]

Those linked Planescape timelines don't really match up well with Spelljammer timelines though... those go back millions of years, at least according to the novels.

Spelljammer and Planescape are mutually exclusive
TSR, apparently, doubted in Spelljammer almost from the very start - why else they released the Voidjammer (which is "Spelljammer, but in Astral") mere months after the start of Spelljammer production?
When Planescape was released, they just stopped releasing new products for Spelljammer
During the 3E, the only major thing we have was Shadow of the Spider Moon, which discarded all the previous materials, and, essentially, almost completely unrelated to 2E Spelljammer

[Caelestion]

Why are Spelljammer and Planescape mutually exclusive? From my understanding, Spelljammer exists purely in the Prime Material, in the space between Prime worlds (the aether).

[gkathellar]

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape,

As fro says, this thread assumes they are not mutually exclusive.

[Lapak]

Why are Spelljammer and Planescape mutually exclusive? From my understanding, Spelljammer exists purely in the Prime Material, in the space between Prime worlds (the aether).

As noted, they are not for the purposes of this thread. Other than that, I would assume that the comment above has something to do with how Spelljammer handles access to the gods and the Outer Planes (every crystal sphere has its own deities and clerics outside their native sphere need to burn a 2nd level spell to punch through to their own gods and recover spells above 2nd level.)

[afroakuma]

1) The Lady's control over portals in Sigil is absolute. But what about the portals other sides? Can a powerful entity force close portals from non-Lady's side?

It's known that Sigil's portals can be tampered with, yes.

And, prevent from new portals appearing on that world.

That one, no. If the Lady wants a portal to exist, it does. Sigil itself may also produce them somehow - it's a weird place and some of the portals are clearly running on more of a "sure, why not" from Her Serenity.

Why not to blockade Sigil and make some demands?

I'm really curious what kind of demands you think could be made, and to whom.

2) Is there way to track who was petitioner before death?

Oh sure. Not particularly difficult, what with the oodles of magical methodologies out there. More lawful realms will be able to ID petitioners through records.

Is it possible to track your loved deceased great grandfather in Bytopia? And if it's possible, can one prepare for this in advance, like store his memories in a sensory stone, and ask someone to bring it to their new self?

All possible, yes, but bear in mind that the petitioner likely doesn't... really... care. The existence of a prior life is more of a whimsical curiosity than anything.

3) This isn't really a question, it's rather my idea that could fit into Planescape adventure, and I am interested how you find it.
Except everything else, Sigil has pure law factions and pure chaos factions, that fight each other tirelessly. And, so far, lawful factions couldn't achieve anything. As I understand, it's mostly Harmonium who tries to literally fight them, by killing their members. But here's my idea: if Xaositects or Anarchists are so much chaotic, can't they be defeated by "overloading" them with law? Like sending in the infiltrators that won't kill or sabotage, but instead will organize those factions. Those factions, once they get too much of order in their ranks, they will simply stop being chaotic, lose their ideals and just cease to exist. Is this idea workable, at least theoretically?

I'm sure someone has tried it - likely multiple someones - but I would imagine the actual outcome could have only been hilarious. In realms of belief where philosophy holds sway, walking the fine line between faking a belief plausibly enough to infiltrate and coming away contaminated by it is a tenuous proposition. Also the Xaositects are free to do whatever, including being organized - and it would probably fall apart when the Guvners or Harmonium or whoever started poking at them out of paranoia and distrust. You have to change their beliefs to truly "defeat" the faction.

As noted, they are not for the purposes of this thread. Other than that, I would assume that the comment above has something to do with how Spelljammer handles access to the gods and the Outer Planes (every crystal sphere has its own deities and clerics outside their native sphere need to burn a 2nd level spell to punch through to their own gods and recover spells above 2nd level.)

I mean there's no reason for them to be incompatible - Planescape certainly doesn't think they are, and nothing about Spelljammer's restriction fails to align with Planescape's methodologies. There were even novels referencing the cross.

[Edreyn]

I'm really curious what kind of demands you think could be made, and to whom.

Yes, I guess Lady would really not like blackmail.

[afroakuma]

Yes, I guess Lady would really not like blackmail.

She would not, no, though again it's awfully hard to threaten her with anything that would make her care enough to come smite you for doing so. There's also zero negotiating position because nothing anyone would want to demand from her would ever be granted.

[ShurikVch]

Why are Spelljammer and Planescape mutually exclusive? From my understanding, Spelljammer exists purely in the Prime Material, in the space between Prime worlds (the aether).

The main problem there is the simple logic: why subjecting yourself to countless dangers of spelljamming, if Greater Teleport can brought you in place in mere seconds, and without any risk?
(Also, that stupid "air envelopes"... )

As noted, they are not for the purposes of this thread. Other than that, I would assume that the comment above has something to do with how Spelljammer handles access to the gods and the Outer Planes (every crystal sphere has its own deities and clerics outside their native sphere need to burn a 2nd level spell to punch through to their own gods and recover spells above 2nd level.)

It's about the fact: Planescape says all planar trade are going through the Sigil, but no spelljammers mentioned

[Bronk]

The main problem there is the simple logic: why subjecting yourself to countless dangers of spelljamming, if Greater Teleport can brought you in place in mere seconds, and without any risk?

I think if as a economy of scale.

There are high powered mages who can teleport and plane shift, but they are few and far between, plus expensive and without a lot of cargo space unless you shell out a lot more cash for extradimensional storage. Sort of like... a helicopter taxi, if you were hiring Airwolf.

Portals are around, but don't always go where you want, and might be secret, locked, one way, on a schedule, controlled by someone else, and possibly with similar cargo issues, so, sort of like a lousy subway system mixed with spotty uber service.

The Infinite Staircase is available to pedestrians and has its own bandit and wandering monster issues, so, sort of like backpacking through a war zone.

Spelljamming is accomplished with ships that have plenty of cargo space, and don't need to be crewed by high level characters. Helms and ships are expensive, but might be owned by a guild to defray costs, and after the initial expenditure you'd just be paying wages and upkeep. The pirates are weirder, but equally as dangerous as planet-bound pirates, so all that's different from regular shipping (which also still exists) is that you have a bigger trading area.

(Also, that stupid "air envelopes"... )

I like air envelopes! I think they're flavorful, and they mean everything is more magical instead of sci-fi.

It's about the fact: Planescape says all planar trade are going through the Sigil, but no spelljammers mentioned

Spelljammers aren't using planar travel - they stick to the Prime Material Plane at all times.

[Caelestion]

The main problem there is the simple logic: why subjecting yourself to countless dangers of spelljamming, if Greater Teleport can brought you in place in mere seconds, and without any risk?
(Also, that stupid "air envelopes"... )

It's about the fact: Planescape says all planar trade are going through the Sigil, but no spelljammers mentioned

Well, ignoring the fact that if everyone was a 13th-level wizard, stories would be much harder to write, spelljammers are mentioned in the Planescape canon I think it's In the Cage: A Guide to Sigil that one of the characters in the narrative sections goes to one of Sigil's many markets to purchase a nautiloid. He thinks he's buying an expensive seashell (or something similar), but the merchant is actually selling a fully-operational illithid spelljammer (also called a nautiloid).

[Grey Guard]

So I love the planes, specifically the upper and lower ones, and more specifically the baatezu.

Having joined up in 3.5, I missed the plane (tee hee) on Planescape games, since the information for running those in 3.5 are sparse. I've since picked up the occasional AD&D module and done my best to convert the encounters and mechanics to 3.5, but fluff and stories leave me yearning to see more. I've considered purchasing old books for the setting.

That said, questions!

Fiends are usually irredeemably vile, do you think it possible to portray fiends, specifically baatezu, in a positive light? Probably emphasizing their role in the Blood War?

Are any of the Lawful Good exemplars or gods involved in fighting in the Blood War alongside the Baatezu? If not, do you think it would be out of character for gods and celestials to do that in some way? I'm imagining Planetar auxilaries fighting demons and the like, or a god like Heironeous saying that fighting the Blood War is the duty of all Lawful creatures, and lending a hand; but if there's something in canon, I'd love to know about it.

Say I wanted to run a game central around the baatezu, and have them being a major faction for a campaign. What sort of themes and ideas should be emphasized from the point of the narrative? Could a game where the players are baatezu themselves also work, or is that better left to outsiders viewing the world of the baatezu from the outside?

[Caelestion]

One of the plot-points in Hellbound: The Blood War is that a trumpet archon is secretly providing arms to the baatezu to help them against the tanar'ri, but it's heavily implied that other more powerful baatezu are manipulating the archon from behind the scenes. If the PCs make a public effort of this matter, things do not go well for the archon.

[enderlord99]

do you think it possible to portray fiends, specifically baatezu, in a positive light?

You mean "lying and propaganda?" Sure; they do it themselves all the time!

[Grey Guard]

One of the plot-points in Hellbound: The Blood War is that a trumpet archon is secretly providing arms to the baatezu to help them against the tanar'ri, but it's heavily implied that other more powerful baatezu are manipulating the archon from behind the scenes. If the PCs make a public effort of this matter, things do not go well for the archon.

I'll have to check that out. That sounds fun.

You mean "lying and propaganda?" Sure; they do it themselves all the time!

Yes, well, I guess I'm biased in that I see that Lawful alignments have some inherently positive traits. Honoring a deal, keeping your word, etc... Of course those are often twisted with baatezu. Maybe I see something inherently... 'good' (for lack of a better word) that the devils are actually what stands between us and cosmic annihilation by hordes of demons. Not that they do it for our sake, but as a grim duty.

But I suppose lying and propaganda feature pretty prominently with them. "Yes, mortal, by signing this pact, you're not only helping yourself, you're aiding all of creation against the vile horde of demons!" *stifles laughter*

[Brookshw]

Stay away from whatever ether gap Fro walked into and vanished for ages.

Glad to see you're still with us, had me worried there

[afroakuma]

Fiends are usually irredeemably vile, do you think it possible to portray fiends, specifically baatezu, in a positive light? Probably emphasizing their role in the Blood War?

All depends on one's context, I suppose.

Are any of the Lawful Good exemplars or gods involved in fighting in the Blood War alongside the Baatezu? If not, do you think it would be out of character for gods and celestials to do that in some way?

Gods, no. Gods don't get involved in the Blood War. Celestials, rarely, and most often indirectly. Usually their purpose is to keep the War going - a victory for Asmodeus is no victory at all for Mount Celestia.

I'm imagining Planetar auxilaries fighting demons and the like, or a god like Heironeous saying that fighting the Blood War is the duty of all Lawful creatures, and lending a hand; but if there's something in canon, I'd love to know about it.

Definitely not. The example provided above is a fun one, of course.

Say I wanted to run a game central around the baatezu, and have them being a major faction for a campaign. What sort of themes and ideas should be emphasized from the point of the narrative? Could a game where the players are baatezu themselves also work, or is that better left to outsiders viewing the world of the baatezu from the outside?

It's very difficult to roleplay an exemplar. Remember that unlike a lawful evil villain, a devil is absolutely certain its cause is not righteous and its motives are deeply impure. A devil is celebratory of being evil. Easier to represent mortals who have been press-ganged into service in some way - for instance, serving Furcas's Ministry of Mortal Relations, or having to be part of Zapan's diplomatic corps.

Yes, well, I guess I'm biased in that I see that Lawful alignments have some inherently positive traits. Honoring a deal, keeping your word, etc... Of course those are often twisted with baatezu. Maybe I see something inherently... 'good' (for lack of a better word) that the devils are actually what stands between us and cosmic annihilation by hordes of demons. Not that they do it for our sake, but as a grim duty.

You can flip all of that, though - chaos represents freedom, individuality, and creativity. The demons provide a crucial check against the otherwise inevitable tyranny of Asmodeus. Et cetera.

Glad to see you're still with us, had me worried there

Not gonna lie, been keeping very busy and I was not aware this thread was still alive. Feels good to be back, though.

[enderlord99]

If celestials do things "because they're the right thing to do" and fiends do things "because they're the wrong thing to do" then slaadi must do things "because they want to" and modrons must do things "because they don't want to."

Right? It makes about as much sense.

[gkathellar]

If celestials do things "because they're the right thing to do" and fiends do things "because they're the wrong thing to do" then slaadi must do things "because they want to" and modrons must do things "because they don't want to."

Right? It makes about as much sense.

They all do things because they want to. The question is what they want, which in its very simplest formulation is: good wants to help, evil wants to hurt, law wants hierarchy, and chaos wants sandwich go-kart ablution verklempt banana.

[Brookshw]

In the Baldur's Gate 3 trailer, at 1:13, there's a lightning strike/flash in the clouds and we can see an Illithid spelljammer fleet. I'm looking at the biggest ship up there and trying to figure out what it is. Seems sort of like a dreadnaught but appears too big. Did the Illithid's have anything bigger? Care to hazard a guess at what we're seeing in the video?

[Grey Guard]

Gods, no. Gods don't get involved in the Blood War. Celestials, rarely, and most often indirectly. Usually their purpose is to keep the War going - a victory for Asmodeus is no victory at all for Mount Celestia.

After reading a little bit in Hellbound The Dark of War, it does mention that some lawful and chaotic gods did try and aid one side or the other in the Blood War, but that one of the gods just, withered and shriveled up one day. And when the other gods noticed their powers withering too, got the heck out of dodge. Has that event ever been explained or elaborated on anywhere else? Seems like a fantastic reason Gods or Powers in general would want to stay away from the conflict.

Definitely not. The example provided above is a fun one, of course.

Ah well. I guess I had a romantic notion in my head that lawful's tendency towards organization might see them working together at times. In Hellbound it does mention that they sometimes form temporary coalitions to work together for some mutual goal, but they fall apart the moment said goal is reached. Makes sense.

It's very difficult to roleplay an exemplar. Remember that unlike a lawful evil villain, a devil is absolutely certain its cause is not righteous and its motives are deeply impure. A devil is celebratory of being evil. Easier to represent mortals who have been press-ganged into service in some way - for instance, serving Furcas's Ministry of Mortal Relations, or having to be part of Zapan's diplomatic corps.

I've dabbled in RPing exemplars before. Again, though, I'm a 3.5 baby, so the lore was never very prevalent. It honestly sounds like I could've been doing it a little wrong in some cases. When I RPed a devil in the past, I played up his 'positive' traits as much as possible. Loyalty, keeping to my word, twisting the meaning but staying true to the language, etc... But had a romantic notion that he was keeping the planes safe from demonic destruction, and prided himself on his 'fair' deals. While he was thoroughly evil, he didn't call himself that, anyone who called him that was labeled naive by him. I have a lot of research to do before doing that again.

You can flip all of that, though - chaos represents freedom, individuality, and creativity. The demons provide a crucial check against the otherwise inevitable tyranny of Asmodeus. Et cetera.

Very true. Chaos has a lot of redeeming qualities, too. I just wish I saw more of them from my fellow players.

Thanks for the replies!