afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[afroakuma]

Is there a creator deity for gnolls? I know that Gorellik is the head of the pantheon, but what I found on him is that hes specifically not the creator of gnolls.

The gnolls do not acknowledge a creator god; even when worship of Gorellik was more prominent, they did not consider him their creator (he might actually be). Gnolls aren't tremendously faithful as a general rule, of course; even their "pantheon" consists only of Yeenoghu (a demon prince) and three obscure and minor deities - Gorellik, god of the hunt and of hyenas; Refnara, an obscure serpentine deity of fear and the moon; and Sheth, an even more obscure deity who seems to be linked to affliction, subjugation, and the sun.

Similarly, is there a creator deity for minotaurs? I've seen that they are cursed humans, but I haven't seen anything that has said who cursed them.

Humans, no. Giants, essentially. Minotaurs descend from an ill-favored mating between the frost giant god Thrym and a hill giant sorceress named Haagenti. For her deception, Thrym blighted her offspring and she eventually ended up as a vestige, unacknowledged by minotaurs in any way.

[Tzardok]

Refnara, an obscure serpentine deity of fear and the moon; and Sheth, an even more obscure deity who seems to be linked to affliction, subjugation, and the sun.

Oh boy... are those two dying, like Gorellik is, or do they have other sources of worship?

[enderlord99]

Spoiler: Old thread, don't post in

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What's your opinion on this project from 2008? More specifically, what's your opinion on the "Cultist" class, which is sort of like a shadowcaster but with their mysteries treated as divine rather than arcane?

[Tzardok]

Oh, that thread. It had a lot of nice material, but I didn't like any of the new races or basic clases. And the cultist with its "divine mysteries" I liked the least.

[afroakuma]

Oh boy... are those two dying, like Gorellik is, or do they have other sources of worship?

Neither of them is doing well. Both are absurdly obscure, and neither engenders much worship. Sheth at least accepts other races as worshipers, though he doesn't have many regardless.

Spoiler: Gnoll pantheon

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Studying the ancient mysteries of the gnoll race is a profound challenge, not least because the gnolls are violent, uncooperative, and deeply unconcerned with their own background. The value of what Yeenoghu took from them is incalculable, though perhaps it is more accurate to say that the gnolls let everything of value slip away from themselves when they abandoned any better natures they may have once possessed. What can be said with certainty is that the gnolls as a people have lost something of themselves when measured against their contemporaries; what few vestiges remain manifest at an individual level only.

Gnolls have an oral tradition, which tells of a number of great spirits that formed the basis of gnoll religion in the time before Yeenoghu. Curiously, they have no creation myth, which may have been part of how the demon prince was able to corrupt them so easily - they do not contextualize themselves as being "of" a particular deity or other divine figure. The following are some of the repeating motifs of gnoll oral tradition.

Spoiler: Oral Tradition

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Terms with subjective translation or that cannot be simply translated have been marked <in this manner> to indicate rough meaning.

The hunt was good, more than <howling brother> could bring down alone
<howling brother> howled and we answered, he called us and we came and fed

We howled at <high place> and called <great dark> to join the hunt
<great dark> came forth alone and hunted alone, and ignored <howling brother>
What <great dark> hunted she kept for herself and her get
She roared that we had no part of it, and her <many hours feast> was <bee sweetness> and <water bird>
Alone she feasts, as must you

We howled at <deep place> and she was under our feet like a shadow
She put fear into us and she seized <night sun> in her jaw
<Howling brother> took her and pulled her from herself so long
She wrapped herself around <night sun> and <egg shell made> our hearts
Fear <she who bites the moon>

We howled at the sun and <other one> howled back
Others came for his hunt and some of us joined them
They were to hunt us and <other one> <pouring> bright fire
All through the wood, <other one> taught us pain
Be strong or suffer

We howled for they chased us with <pouring fire>
Enemies thought to hunt us. <Dark giving place one> hid us well
She sent us out in the night and we killed our enemy
Out on the plain, <other one> waited still
Know where you are strongest

We howled when one died, we could not divide his body
To eat, and <air disease> came down among us
Marked his body, gave us all fear
<Air disease> ate well and we went without
Turn not against <brother> for <air disease> waits

We howled when <spear horse> danced in the wood
We would feast well on his bones and on his blood
<Spear horse> struck among us and laid us low
He will come again and we shall remember
What is needed may cause pain

We howled when <red thief> came among us with a gift
He told us he could teach us to win more <hunt gifts>
We gave him rabbit for his teaching but he <entered into a small cave>
They died who waited for <red thief> to return
Do not wait for the wisdom of others

We howled when <tree child> sang to us
She sang of foolishness and we sang of the hunt
In her tree no axe could strike her
We made <spear air branch> and took her for our own
To rest in comfort is not safe

We howled at <many small faces pack>
<Many small faces pack> ate of our blood and skin
<Many small faces pack> gave us madness and we struck it
All across the world its pieces spread
Kill the small for many are great

We howled with <small hunt chief> when he was born
He unmade <shield frog> and took its steel
Into the hands of his get what he made
And they joined in the howling and made a great hunt of humans
<Steel might gnoll> is great

We howled when <awful/foul one> came among us
Ugly in all ways, who <defecates/makes hatred> upon us
<Defecates/makes hatred> upon all that is wanted and needed
Cast it out, the <kicking/biting/stinging> beast, cast it away
Drive off what is awful, do not suffer it

The most recent oral tradition bears a different pattern, not unlike the earliest:

We have hunted far, so far that we cannot find ourselves
We listen for the howling, and we hear it
It is raw and red
It is the song of slaughter
Watch as it brings down giants, we do not <heart hunt> them now
Now we have seen them fall
What is strong must be of us if we are to have its strength
We take ourselves from where we have been
We give ourselves to <giant blood spiller>
We are his get
We take as he takes

An overview of the known and conjectured members of the ancient gnoll pantheon follows. The three that have been documented to any extent begin the list:

Spoiler: Known Gnoll Deities

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Gorellik, CN Demipower of Pandemonium
He Who Hunts
Portfolio Hunting, hyenas, hyenadons
Realm Pandemonium/wanders or Abyss/wanders
Symbol White hyenadon head
Domains Animal, Chaos, Gnoll*, Hunt*, Strength
Favored Weapon Unarmed strike

Most likely candidate for creator of the gnoll race, Gorellik is among the earliest attestations of their oral tradition. Based on the mythology they share, it would appear that Gorellik ceased direct involvement with the race under his patronage fairly quickly, leaving his people to search for other sources of strength. This was the source of his ultimate downfall, and it's entirely possible that Gorellik hasn't even acknowledged it yet given the limited records about his activity during the period where he was more commonly worshiped.

Refnara, NE Demipower of Gehenna
Moon-Biter, She Who Bites The Moon
Portfolio Fear, the moon, darkness, snakes, caverns, the earth
Realm Gehenna/Krangath/Dark of the Moon
Symbol Snake jaws around the moon
Domains Cavern, Darkness, Earth, Evil, Fear*, Moon, Scalykind
Favored Weapon Spear

Likely to have been a minor deity of nagas or another serpentine race, Refnara is associated with mythology around fear of the moon and the perils of the deep reaches of the world. Gnolls still base some of their behavior on the phases of the moon. It is possible that Refnara supplanted some even earlier moon goddess, but the taciturn deity has never had anything to say on the matter.

Sheth, CE Demipower of Carceri
The Outsider, Madhowl, He Who Burns And Binds
Portfolio Subjugation, helplessness, madness, sunlight
Realm Carceri/Minethys/Bone Ziggurat
Symbol Slavering gnoll head surrounded by rays of light
Domains Chaos, Domination, Evil, Sun, Weakness*
Favored Weapon Mace

Sheth is an anomaly, a god acknowledged by gnolls whose clerics are predominantly non-gnolls. His worship exists in areas where gnolls are indentured or enslaved in service to others, and he is associated with the light of the sun, which gnolls fear and despise. It is possible that he is playing some kind of long con with his non-gnoll worshipers and will ultimately turn on them to reward the gnoll race for enduring his treacheries, but more likely Sheth has betrayed the gnolls out of pure pragmatism as much as to indulge the subjugation element of his portfolio. Shamans of Sheth are quite despised among gnoll society - Yeenoghu worshipers don't like other faiths as a matter of course, but notwithstanding this clash of belief systems, Sheth's faith motivates gnolls to beat down and exploit other gnolls, which is generally a cultural taboo.

Spoiler: Conjectured Gnoll Deities

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Makka, CN Demipower of the Beastlands (Dead Power?)
The Lone One, She Who Feasts, Ruler-Of-Woods
Portfolio Survival, self-sufficiency, strength
Realm Beastlands/Brux/the Unshadowed Wood
Symbol Split beehive
Domains Chaos, Competition, Feast, Strength
Favored Weapon Greataxe

Depicted as a massive bearlike gnoll with honey-covered claws, attestations of Makka worship are vanishingly rare among old gnoll relics. Trace planar resonances suggest that a being like Makka may once have traveled with Gorellik. Theoretically, if Makka was vested with some of the lost essence of gnolls, her portion may have been that which drove gnolls to be self-sufficient rather than lazy and undermotivated.

Shuma, CG Demipower of Arborea (Dead Power?)
She Who Hides, She of Secret Paths
Portfolio Forests, camouflage, shelter
Realm Arborea/Arvandor/Whispering Canopy
Symbol Black branch
Domains Chaos, Gnoll*, Good, Plant, Protection
Favored Weapon Scimitar

A wood spirit according to ancient depictions, Shuma likely provided gnolls with the mandate to create semi-permanent settlements or shelters which could be used during inclement weather and times of danger. Oral traditions invoke her in relation to concealment and withdrawal from the world at large, but she is also associated with sleep during the day and with driving gnolls to reprisal against their foes in the dark of night.

Marrshok, NE Demipower of Hades (Dead Power?)
Deathbringer, Foul Bird, Thief of Youth, Rotjaws
Portfolio Disease, decay, aging, death, storms
Realm Hades/Oinos/Carrion Tree
Symbol Wing punctured with an arrow
Domains Air, Decay, Evil, Pestilence, Sky, Storm
Favored Weapon Longbow

Not to be confused with the similarly-named yuan-ti deity, depictions of this spirit vary - some representations are vultures, while others resemble a gnoll with wings and talons, not unlike the marrash, pox-ridden fiends of the Lower Planes. Marrshok is not depicted as the keeper of the dead or as a psychopomp figure; oral traditions paint him as capricious, cruel, and eager to prolong suffering. A figure of spite, he is also associated with food spoilage and often takes the form of a troublesome imp who punishes laziness. This theme has gone out of modern traditions, of course, as gnolls have lost diligence and self-sufficiency.

Elen, CG Demipower of Ysgard (Dead Power?)
Crowned Warrior, the Worthy, He Who Yields Not
Portfolio Worthy prey, combat, merit
Realm Ysgard/Muspelheim/Hartsember
Symbol Bloody antler
Domains Animal, Chaos, Competition, Good, Hunt*, War
Favored Weapon Halberd

Another deity likely not originally related to gnolls, oral traditions attest Elen's presence in stories that line up with human idioms such as "you are what you eat" or "twice small potatoes is still small potatoes." He is depicted as an antlered gnoll or, more rarely, a white tauric gnoll/stag with antlers. Stories around Elen seem to emphasize the reasons behind the kill. Planar resonances suggest that Elen may have once traveled with Gorellik.

Llishik, CN Demipower of Carceri (Dead Power?)
The Red Deceiver, Red Goblin, Falsetongue
Portfolio Deception, trickery, cunning, trade
Realm Carceri/Cathrys/Fox's Fasthold
Symbol Grinning fox's head
Domains Chaos, Gnoll*, Planning, Trade, Trickery
Favored Weapon Dagger

In the old oral recitations, a figure similar to Llishik shows up early and often, a trickster archetype with elements of being a necessary evil in the lives of gnolls. For every story about tricking a gnoll out of food or into some danger or embarrassment comes a story about deceiving outsiders to pilfer their secrets and riches and deliver them to the gnolls. Most likely this spirit was originally part of the gnoll pantheon and may have been responsible for a natural cleverness and cunning which the race now lacks. Llishik was depicted as a grinning red gnoll.

Verfrik, CN Demipower of Arborea (Dead Power?)
She Who Smells Winter, the Collector, Clevertail
Portfolio Winter, luck, foresight
Realm Beastlands/Brux/the Unshadowed Wood
Symbol Acorn
Domains Chaos, Gnoll*, Knowledge, Luck, Planning, Winter
Favored Weapon Sling

Another spirit from the earliest stories recorded, Verfrik is depicted as idle and fat with an enormous bushy tail - except when she's depicted as lean, small, and too quick to catch. Relics recovered from old gnoll settlement sites appear to indicate that Verfrik's shamans were charged with predicting the change of seasons and attendant consequences for the hunt. Early storytellers emphasized the frustration of chieftains in such situations, which may have given rise to emphasizing the irksome qualities of Verfrik rather than the elements of guidance and preparation.

Koshnik, CE Demipower of the Beastlands (Dead Power?)
He Who Torments, He Who Is Many, Bogborn
Portfolio Stagnant waters, insects, torment
Realm Beastlands/Krigala/Bloodfever
Symbol Stylized centipede
Domains Chaos, Evil, Pestilence, Suffering, Water
Favored Weapon Trident

At one time a rare deity of evil who made his realm on the Beastlands, Koshnik is associated with the dangers of stagnation in stories, punishing those who grow complacent with swarms of biting, stinging insects. Many of these stories involve water in some way, teaching lessons about how water may become fouled and unsuitable if not managed over time, an art which modern gnolls have for the most part lost. Other stories associate Koshnik with following in Gorellik's wake, tormenting and devouring those who could not keep up with the hunt. This faith may have segued into Yeenoghu worship in later years.

Zagar, LE Demipower of Acheron (Dead Power?)
Leader of Flinds, Steel Shaper, the Unbending
Portfolio Flinds, metallurgy, weapons, superiority
Realm Acheron/Avalas/Zagar's Crucible
Symbol Flind head biting flindbar
Domains Evil, Gnoll*, Law, Metal, Mind, War
Favored Weapon Flindbar (or warhammer)

If the mythology is accurate, flinds once had a separate deity, though whether Zagar was their true creator or whether they were an offshoot of gnolls is hard to ascertain. Gnolls generally omitted stories of Zagar from oral history, but flinds never did. The most popular story among their race is that Gorellik had hunted Zagar to the ends of the world and on trying to seize him in his mighty jaws, caught Zagar's flindbar instead. Zagar pleaded for its return, offering a pound of his own flesh instead, and Gorellik hungrily agreed to the trade. This was Zagar's plan, for with part of himself now infused into the hyena god, he could make sure that his people were the most elite that the two races had to offer, for only a flind would have the complete essence of everything Gorellik was - a gnoll would be missing that chunk of Zagar. When Gorellik realized this ploy, he attacked Zagar, who no longer needed to trick the hyena god and so beat him mercilessly with his flindbar. Zagar is associated with the gift of metalworking, an art gnolls almost never pursue these days.

Toknana, CE Lesser Power of the Abyss
The Hateful One, the Odious Beast, Poisonwind, Spitebringer
Portfolio Hatred, defilement, desecration, leucrottas
Realm The Abyss/wanders
Symbol Metal disk imprinted with leucrotta bite
Domains Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Hate, Slime, Trickery
Favored Weapon Heavy pick

While the other spirits from ancient gnoll oral tradition are speculative at best, Toknana is horribly, terribly real. A minor god in planar affairs, Toknana is an instantly detestable power who represents everything vile, not unlike the leucrotta species itself. Having once been bested in a hunt by Gorellik, the Hateful One has been on a campaign of vengeance ever since, and some have suggested that Toknana's foul breath could be smelled behind Yeenoghu's move to claim the gnolls as his own. Toknana has been represented in oral tradition as both a disgusting and deplorable hoofed beast and as a revolting twisted gnoll, with leucrotta-like teeth, hooves, and tail. As a general rule, gnolls despise Toknana and will kill leucrottas on sight in recognition of the waste and misery that they bring.

Spoiler: New Domains

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Fear Domain
Granted Power You get a +2 bonus to saving throws against fear effects. The save DC of your fear effects is increased by 1.
1st - cause fear
2nd - scare^SC
3rd - blade of pain and fear^SC
4th - fear
5th - phantasmal killer
6th - aura of terror^SC
7th - opalescent glare^SC
8th - final rebuke^SC
9th - weird

Gnoll Domain
Granted Power You gain a +2 bonus to Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
1st - aspect of the hyena^SC (as aspect of the wolf but hyena stats and form instead)
2nd - share husk^SC
3rd - spirit jaws^SC
4th - jaws of the hyenadon (as jaws of the wolf^SC, produces hyenadons with stats identical to worgs)
5th - echo skull^SC
6th - lurking hyena (as Mordenkainen's faithful hound but 2d6+6 bite damage, may make a trip attempt (+10 bonus), bite bypasses DR as a magic silver weapon, caster can reposition hound up to 50 feet as a move action)
7th - shifting paths^SC
8th - phantom hyena (as phantom wolf^SC)
9th - shadow landscape^SC

Hunt Domain
Granted Power You gain Track as a bonus feat.
1st - hawkeye^SC
2nd - scent^SC
3rd - snare
4th - essence of the raptor^SC
5th - nightstalker's transformation^SC
6th - phantasmal disorientation^SC
7th - true seeing
8th - discern location
9th - imprisonment

Weakness Domain
Granted Power Once per day you may afflict a creature within 30 feet with weakness as a standard action. The victim gets a -2 penalty to its next Fortitude or Wisdom saving throw and abilities which would negate a partial effect on a successful save (such as evasion) do not apply. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1 plus half your cleric level, rounded down.
1st - inhibit
2nd - hold person
3rd - bestow curse
4th - crushing despair
5th - hold monster
6th - fleshshiver
7th - symbol of weakness
8th - bestow greater curse
9th - mass hold monster

What's your opinion on this project from 2008?

Not really my cup of tea.

[Bartmanhomer]

Are there any giant deities? (Frost Giants, those kind of giants for example.) If so, what are their names?

[afroakuma]

Are there any giant deities? (Frost Giants, those kind of giants for example.) If so, what are their names?

Oh, plenty. Their pantheon, the Ordning, is large (no pun intended) and well-established.

Annam All-Father leads the Ordning, or did at any rate; he is the supreme god of giantkind but has largely withdrawn to his Hidden Realm.
Diancastra is a trickster goddess.
Grolantor is the brutish god of hill giants and ettins.
Grond Peaksmasher is a minor god of the firbolgs.
Hiatea is the nature goddess.
Iallanis is the goddess of love and beauty.
Karontor is the deformed and monstrous god of fomorians.
Memnor is the god of evil cloud giants, though he professes to be noble and honorable.
Othea was a mountain goddess who was mother to many of the giant gods.
Skoraeus Stonebones is the god of stone giants.
Stronmaus is the god of storm giants and good-aligned cloud giants. In Annam's absence he is the functional leader of the Ordning.
Surtr is the god of fire giants.
Thrym is the god of frost giants.

There are also the peripheral ones: Baphomet and Kostchtchie, both demon princes; and Vaprak, god of ogres and trolls.

[Tzardok]

Oh, plenty. Their pantheon, the Ordning, is large (no pun intended) and well-established.

Is Ordning supposed to mean anything? I mean, it's just one letter removed from the German word for "order". (Also, when I was seaching for the answer to this question, I found out that "ordning" is Swedish for "to order" (a drink, for example).) I was lied to!!!

Annam All-Father leads the Ordning, or did at any rate; he is the supreme god of giantkind but has largely withdrawn to his Hidden Realm.

Is his realm hidden like Io's is or is "The Hidden Realm" just the name of his divine realm?

Othea was a mountain goddess who was mother to many of the giant gods.

You say "was". Is she dead? I know that she cheated on Annam with Ulutiu; did he strip her of her divinity or something? Also, is Ulutiu technically a giant god?

There are also the peripheral ones: Baphomet and Kostchtchie, both demon princes; and Vaprak, god of ogres and trolls.

I didn't know that Baphomet has enough giant followers to be considered even partially a member of their pantheon; is his cult spread through all giant races or just through one of them?

[afroakuma]

Is Ordning supposed to mean anything? I mean, it's just one letter removed from the German word for "order". (Also, when I was seaching for the answer to this question, I found out that "ordning" is Swedish for "to order" (a drink, for example).)

In Norwegian and Swedish it means "order" in the conventional sense of an arrangement of things into place. It definitely doesn't mean to order a drink, which would be jeg beställer en dryck.

Is his realm hidden like Io's is or is "The Hidden Realm" just the name of his divine realm?

Both, actually. He used to have one on Ysgard but closed up shop and moved.

You say "was". Is she dead? I know that she cheated on Annam with Ulutiu; did he strip her of her divinity or something? Also, is Ulutiu technically a giant god?

Othea was murdered by her son Lanaxis in vengeance for prohibiting him from disturbing Ulutiu's amulet. Ulutiu is the father of the firbolg, fomorians, verbeeg, and voadkyn; that said, he's patron of none of them, and not a giant god.

I didn't know that Baphomet has enough giant followers to be considered even partially a member of their pantheon; is his cult spread through all giant races or just through one of them?

No no, minotaurs are peripheral to giantkind (being cursed offshoots) and Baphomet is their patron. I'm sure a few giants venerate Baphomet, but not enough to make it a "thing."

[Thurbane]

Humans, no. Giants, essentially. Minotaurs descend from an ill-favored mating between the frost giant god Thrym and a hill giant sorceress named Haagenti. For her deception, Thrym blighted her offspring and she eventually ended up as a vestige, unacknowledged by minotaurs in any way.

No no, minotaurs are peripheral to giantkind (being cursed offshoots) and Baphomet is their patron. I'm sure a few giants venerate Baphomet, but not enough to make it a "thing."

Is there any direct relationship between Baphomet and Haagenti? I mean, I'm sure she is quite resentful that her "children" venerate the demon, but anything else?

Is there any indication on the % split of how many frost giants venerate Kostchtchie compared to Thrym?

Also, in a more broad terms, why don't more monstrous deities take action when various demons subjugate the worship of their followers?

[Tzardok]

Othea was murdered by her son Lanaxis in vengeance for prohibiting him from disturbing Ulutiu's amulet. Ulutiu is the father of the firbolg, fomorians, verbeeg, and voadkyn; that said, he's patron of none of them, and not a giant god.

When I looked up Lanaxis, the only website I found that mentioned him was the Forgotten Realms wiki, so I'm going to ask and verify: Is it true that he was the progenitor of titans? It sounds... strange to me, what with the Greek titans and all. Also, his page mentioned a whole lot of (half-)siblings, for example a progenitor of woodgiants who stripped Lanaxis of his immortality for murdering their mother. Is anything of that accurate? If yes, are those siblings still around and would be deities themselves?

By the way, I just had a showerthought: There are a whole lot of unique devils around that aren't Lords of the Nine. Are there any unique archons that aren't members of the Hebdomad? What about unique slaadi that aren't slaad lords or unique eladrin that aren't Consorts to the Queen?

Bel is kind of a pitiable creature; let's do something good for him: What would happen if Bel managed to drain Zariel dry and become a unique devil, a proper Lord of the Nine? How would the rest of Hell react? (Also, am I the only one who keeps mixing up Zariel and Zaphkiel?)
Let's turn the question around: Asmodeus decides to promote Bel. What would need to happen for that? What would Bel need to do?

[Caelestion]

Let's turn the question around: Asmodeus decides to promote Bel. What would need to happen for that? What would Bel need to do?

He's the absolute master of the Nine Hells, who still managed to come straight back on top, even when the other Lords of the Nine thought he had been defeated. Depending on your viewpoint, he may even be a true deity (or something much older). Chances are, if Asmodeus wants to do something in Baator, it happens, however convoluted that might be.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Let's turn the question around: Asmodeus decides to promote Bel. What would need to happen for that? What would Bel need to do?

Promote "positively" (as in, with no plans to subsequently topple Bel, barring the usual contingencies), I imagine Bel must (a) demonstrate loyalty, (b) keep doing his job, (c) stabilize his domain, perhaps by forming an alliance with another Archduke (FCII suggests an alliance with Tiamat is in the making), (d) best another Archduke in a major scheme (because Asmodeus won't promote someone who can't hold their own in infernal politics), and (e) achieve some sort of obvious triumph that allows Asmodeus to promote him based on his merits (a polite facade, of course, but useful). I'm just spitballing here, but perhaps a Hellish equivalent to the closing of the gates of Janus might be the thing. That is, when there is peace on all the Nine Hells--a lack of demonic incursions on Avernus--Bel can claim to be doing a pretty good job, and he'll have more time on his hands to deal with other things.

[afroakuma]

Is there any direct relationship between Baphomet and Haagenti? I mean, I'm sure she is quite resentful that her "children" venerate the demon, but anything else?

Nyet.

Is there any indication on the % split of how many frost giants venerate Kostchtchie compared to Thrym?

No, but given that his worshipers are described as a small cult, it's not a significant number. FCI tells us that "legions" of frost giant tribes do not worship him, a fact which fills him with pique.

Also, in a more broad terms, why don't more monstrous deities take action when various demons subjugate the worship of their followers?

By "action," you mean what exactly? Blibdoolpoolp's whips act to expunge the Dagon heresy at every turn, Thrym's shamans don't even need to coach most frost giants to deny Kostchtchie, and of course Lolth's high priestesses all understand their mandate to murder Lolth's high priestesses. The gods that don't act against demonic insurgents - Semuanya, Merrshaulk, and Gorellik being prime examples - tend to be apathetic about their base of worship in some way.

When I looked up Lanaxis, the only website I found that mentioned him was the Forgotten Realms wiki, so I'm going to ask and verify: Is it true that he was the progenitor of titans? It sounds... strange to me, what with the Greek titans and all. Also, his page mentioned a whole lot of (half-)siblings, for example a progenitor of woodgiants who stripped Lanaxis of his immortality for murdering their mother. Is anything of that accurate? If yes, are those siblings still around and would be deities themselves?

I misspoke in the earlier listing, serves me right for writing late at night. Othea was a goddess, but her children were not gods; they were the progenitors of the giant races on Toril and Toril only. True Titans have nothing to do with Annam or giantkind, and it is speculative whether even lesser titans of the kind that reside (unrelated to the Olympians) on Arborea were ever resident on Toril or descended from Lanaxis as myths claim. If this is the case, then they would be, as noted, lesser entities unrelated to the divine Titans, and would have abandoned any ties to Toril altogether when Lanaxis poisoned his family.

Oh, incidentally, I found you a Czernobog - or rather, Chernovog. As identified in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, the name belongs to a demon lord, a tanar'ri, about whom all we know is that his mad green hag worshiper dubs him "the Green God" and that his summoned aspect wields the eldritch blast of a warlock. So don't ask for more.

By the way, I just had a showerthought: There are a whole lot of unique devils around that aren't Lords of the Nine. Are there any unique archons that aren't members of the Hebdomad?

I mean, there could be, but I feel like archons... don't really have a reason for that. Dukes of Hell desire status and uniqueness commensurate to their personal power; elite archons understand the nature of their roles as service to important principles of law and good. It's sort of a selfishness thing.

What about unique slaadi that aren't slaad lords

I mean, they're slaad. By their very nature they're asking to do whatever, whenever. The Spawning Stone can stop them except when it doesn't. Of course, one could argue that "slaad lord" is not a title so much as a term others use to identify a unique slaad...

or unique eladrin that aren't Consorts to the Queen?

It's funny that you think they're unique. The Book of Exalted Deeds is farcically lazy when it comes to statting out the Court of Stars; Gwynharwyf is essentially just a bralani barbarian with a tulani's bardic music ability; Faerinaal is just an advanced tulani; and Morwel herself just adds nymph abilities to a tulani chassis and swaps out dream ray for prismatic ray.

But sure, let's say they're intended to actually be unique and ignore the BoED. Not an unreasonable position to take, stupid slacker book. There's no reason other members of the Court couldn't be unique as well, though one imagines that even a unique eladrin is still broadly similar to the "tribe" they hailed from originally.

Bel is kind of a pitiable creature; let's do something good for him

No.

What would happen if Bel managed to drain Zariel dry and become a unique devil, a proper Lord of the Nine? How would the rest of Hell react?

At best, some few of the local Dukes of Avernus might start paying him some heed - Asmodeus would likely allocate Amon and Moloch, since they'd both want to supplant Bel and be sore about the Reckoning. While plotting to replace him. Levistus or Mammon might open minor diplomacy with him, but Glasya wouldn't give him the time of day, Fierna knows he's not to be trusted, Mephistopheles and Baalzebul both remember his role in the Reckoning and are still resentful, and Dispater is the most paranoid devil in Baator on a good day - the guy who helped his boss gaslight all of the other Lords of the Nine is at the top of Dispater's "do not listen to under any circumstances ever" list.

The whole point of Bel's appointment is to serve as a demonstration of what happens when your reach exceeds your grasp and then you overinvest to get there anyway. He's an object lesson in the Peter Principle.

Let's turn the question around: Asmodeus decides to promote Bel.

No he doesn't. See above.

Also, I don't think you mean "promote." I think you mean "grant a unique form and powers to." Bel is already a Lord of the Nine.

[Tzardok]

I misspoke in the earlier listing, serves me right for writing late at night. Othea was a goddess, but her children were not gods; they were the progenitors of the giant races on Toril and Toril only. True Titans have nothing to do with Annam or giantkind, and it is speculative whether even lesser titans of the kind that reside (unrelated to the Olympians) on Arborea were ever resident on Toril or descended from Lanaxis as myths claim. If this is the case, then they would be, as noted, lesser entities unrelated to the divine Titans, and would have abandoned any ties to Toril altogether when Lanaxis poisoned his family.

Ah. Thank you for clarifying.

Oh, incidentally, I found you a Czernobog - or rather, Chernovog. As identified in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, the name belongs to a demon lord, a tanar'ri, about whom all we know is that his mad green hag worshiper dubs him "the Green God" and that his summoned aspect wields the eldritch blast of a warlock. So don't ask for more.

Me? Asking follow-up questions? Why would I ever do that?

No.

Aw... Would you at least be open to doing something good to him?

Also, I don't think you mean "promote." I think you mean "grant a unique form and powers to." Bel is already a Lord of the Nine.

I know. It's just that baatezu promotion comes with tranformation into a (higher) form, so I used "promote" as a substitute for "unificate". Everybody understood what I meant, didn't they?

The whole point of Bel's appointment is to serve as a demonstration of what happens when your reach exceeds your grasp and then you overinvest to get there anyway. He's an object lesson in the Peter Principle.

Could you point me at a scource that gives a more complete overview over the Reckoning than FC 2 did? Bel's role wasn't quite clear to me (I thought he just took the opportunity to topple his Lord) and I think I read at least two different accounts on how the whole thing started; in one Geryon tattles to Asmodeus about the whole rebellion planing thing, in the other one Malagard does.

[afroakuma]

Could you point me at a scource that gives a more complete overview over the Reckoning than FC 2 did? Bel's role wasn't quite clear to me (I thought he just took the opportunity to topple his Lord) and I think I read at least two different accounts on how the whole thing started; in one Geryon tattles to Asmodeus about the whole rebellion planing thing, in the other one Malagard does.

Guide to Hell would be the most appropriate, off the top of my head. Bel was Zariel's right hand guy and led her forces attacking into Dis at the start of the war; when the Reckoning ended, he usurped her after Asmodeus gave her her job back. Malagard betrayed Moloch by convincing him to overcommit, then using Asmodeus's rage to get him booted and take his seat. Geryon was the Lord Below's catspaw throughout the Reckoning and the one to trigger the revolt against the Lords of the Nine by their own armies.

[Thurbane]

On the subject of the Nine Hells:

Fun fact I discovered the other day: the Appendix in FC2 (p.158) that provides a list of "all the devils described in official DUNGEON & DRAGONS products", advises us that Canomorphs are classified as Devils.

Not just Haraknin, mind you, but Canomorphs in general - presumably including the NE Shadurakul and the CE Vultivor. FC1 doesn't include Canomorphs (or Vultivors) in its index of Demons, so there you go. If you're ever looking for a CE Devil for whatever reason, Vultivor is your guy!

AFAIK this never got addressed in errata...

...it would seem obvious that this was a simple error, and only Haraknin should have been classified as Devils, but... Is there any obscure lore or clause that might let Shadurakul or Vultivors be native to the Hells?

[Tzardok]

Guide to Hell would be the most appropriate, off the top of my head. Bel was Zariel's right hand guy and led her forces attacking into Dis at the start of the war; when the Reckoning ended, he usurped her after Asmodeus gave her her job back. Malagard betrayed Moloch by convincing him to overcommit, then using Asmodeus's rage to get him booted and take his seat. Geryon was the Lord Below's catspaw throughout the Reckoning and the one to trigger the revolt against the Lords of the Nine by their own armies.

This lead to another question: Guide to Hell claims that the Dark Eight were founded as a result of the Reckoning. Is that true? The other descriptions of the Eight I read gave me the impression they were ages old, while the Reckoning is decribed as "relatively recent", which I interpreted as "at most a few centuries ago".

[afroakuma]

...it would seem obvious that this was a simple error, and only Haraknin should have been classified as Devils, but... Is there any obscure lore or clause that might let Shadurakul or Vultivors be native to the Hells?

Of course not. The book even points out that shadurakuls and vultivors are localized to Gehenna (...why?) and the Abyss, respectively. As for FCII, it lists the CR for the canomorph it meant to include, which neatly rules out the shadurakul and vultivor. Don't let's be silly here.

This lead to another question: Guide to Hell claims that the Dark Eight were founded as a result of the Reckoning. Is that true? The other descriptions of the Eight I read gave me the impression they were ages old, while the Reckoning is decribed as "relatively recent", which I interpreted as "at most a few centuries ago".

The Reckoning would be more on the order of thousands of years ago. As for the Dark Eight, they rose to public prominence in the wake of the Reckoning, but they were organized long prior to that.

[Thurbane]

Of course not. The book even points out that shadurakuls and vultivors are localized to Gehenna (...why?) and the Abyss, respectively. As for FCII, it lists the CR for the canomorph it meant to include, which neatly rules out the shadurakul and vultivor. Don't let's be silly here.

Good catch on the CR, I had missed that. Thank you.

[Tzardok]

The Reckoning would be more on the order of thousands of years ago. As for the Dark Eight, they rose to public prominence in the wake of the Reckoning, but they were organized long prior to that.

Oh boy... That's a really long time for Bel to be Hell's buttmonkey, for Zariel to be rendered into energy drinks for Bel, for Geryon to descend to vestigedom and for Glasya and her daddy arguing over wether she takes the new job or not.

[afroakuma]

Oh boy... That's a really long time for Bel to be Hell's buttmonkey, for Zariel to be rendered into energy drinks for Bel

I mean, it's not like that started the day after the Reckoning. We don't know when it did start, but even when it did, you'd have Bel's preparation for reprisal from the Lord Below, the diplomacy, the next wave of diplomacy, rigging up the Zariel juicer, early tests of what would and would not work, early reactions to what her wrath does to Avernus... plenty of things going on in there.

for Geryon to descend to vestigedom

That's a relatively recent thing. How recent specifically is hard to say, but definitely well after the Reckoning.

and for Glasya and her daddy arguing over wether she takes the new job or not.

Hardly the only way either of them was spending their time.

[Tzardok]

I tried not to ask the follow-up question, I really tried, but I can't resist any longer: Democracy? In Hell? What the Nine Hecks happened?

[Fable Wright]

I tried not to ask the follow-up question, I really tried, but I can't resist any longer: Democracy? In Hell? What the Nine Hecks happened?

You vote with who you backstab, and who backstabs on your behalf.

[afroakuma]

I tried not to ask the follow-up question, I really tried, but I can't resist any longer: Democracy? In Hell? What the Nine Hecks happened?

Democracy? What democracy? Nobody said democracy, least of all me. I said diplomacy.

[Lapak]

Democracy? What democracy? Nobody said democracy, least of all me. I said diplomacy.

Oh, you could have leaned into it and I would have believed you; I was ready to accept that it was like in DC/Vertigo Comics when there was a period where Hell was ruled by a triumvirate basically because Lucifer was bored and responded to one of the countless takeover attempts with 'Gosh, I guess you outwitted me this time, , guess I'll have to share my rulership with you two now' up until he got bored of THAT and shuffled things back to normal with essentially no effort whatsoever.

[unseenmage]

Is there any info regarding the first lich and or the first golem?
Am considering having one, the other, or both present at the end of time and it'd be nice to know any lore about them that might already exist.

[Thurbane]

Was Mellifleur the first Lich? Not sure he got any updates, but he appeared in the 2E Monster Mythology. [edit] He is also referred to as Melif, and is mentioned in MotP ; also apprently got stats in Dragon 359. [/edit]

Also, how old is Talos the Triple Iron Golem? He may have been the first? First mentioned in the 1E DMG IIRC, and also referred to in BoVD.

[unseenmage]

Was Mellifleur the first Lich? Not sure he got any updates, but he appeared in the 2E monster mythology.

Also, how old is Talos the Triple Iron Golem? He may have been the first? First mentioned in the 1E DMG IIRC, and also referred to in BoVD.

Mention of Talos tickles a memory somewhere that tells me I might have asked here about Golem origins before. Which.. isnt surprising.

I do wonder at a 'Where Are They Now!' thought now as well.

[Thurbane]

Just checked Dragon 359: if you accept that article as canon, the very first line about Mellifleur says "Mellifleur was not the first lich...".

The MotP section on Krangath refers to him as Melif the Lich-Lord, but doesn't give many other insights - although it is rumoured he was once a Yugoloth, which is somewhat at odds with the Dragon article.