BAB or HD to initiative

[heavyfuel]

I've been playing a Star Wars Saga game, and I loved how they made Initiative scale with level. It makes sense; a lv 20 Fighter shouldn't lose initiative to a lv 1 Commoner every now and again.

Since skills in 3.x, unlike in SW:S, are so easily boosted, I don't want Initiative as a skill. So I was thinking about one of two options

BAB to Init or HD to Init. Both have their pros (+) and cons (-), and both have 1 very big con, that is easily solvable so let's get to it.

Spoiler: PROS AND CONS

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BAB to Initiative:
+ Bigger boost to classes in lower tiers, as they tend to have higher BAB than full casters
- Lower boost to classes tropes say are supposed to win initiative (Rogues, Scouts, and similar)
- Punishes multiclassing
I also thought of "BAB to initiative, but Rogue-like classes count as full BAB"

HD to Initiative
+ Gives roughly the same power level to all classes. Rogues have it as good as Fighters
- Gives roughly the same power level to all classes. Wizards have it as good as Monks
+ Doesn't punish multiclassing

Spoiler: THE BIG CON

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- Monsters get super high Initiative modifiers.
I think this can be solved by saying that BAB derived from Monster HD, or Monster HD itself, are only worth half the normal amount. So a Great Wyrm Red Dragon goes from +40 Initiative to much more manageable +20, which is pretty low for a CR 26 creature.

Anyway, suggestions and pros and cons I might've missed are appreciated.
Thanks!

[Nifft]

Solution:
- Monsters add their CR to Initiative rolls, not HD
- PCs add ECL to their CR, not HD

[Zanos]

Add base reflex save (maybe from class levels only?) to intiative.

[Gildedragon]

I'd second using Reflex save or BAB whichever is higher.

[heavyfuel]

Add base reflex save (maybe from class levels only?) to intiative.

I'd second using Reflex save or BAB whichever is higher.

Interesting...

How about 1.5x Reflex save (rounded down, as usual) or BAB? Rogues get Ref = BAB at lv 7, and this way they start with a little boost, and basically get the equivalent of full BAB

I only wonder about multiclasses, though I heard it's not such a problem in PF

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Use fractional saves and BAB if using the BAB or Reflex to Initiative idea.

Alternately, I wonder if removing Dex to Initiative entirely might be a fair trade for Dex to Damage being easier to access.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, just turning initiative into an opposed reflex save would be a quick and dirty solution that wouldn't mess too much up. Improved Initiative would be a situational reflex save boost that applied only to initiative. Magic items and spells that boost reflex saves boost initiative as a side effect, but that isn't bad per say.

[noce]

Yeah, just turning initiative into an opposed reflex save would be a quick and dirty solution that wouldn't mess too much up. Improved Initiative would be a situational reflex save boost that applied only to initiative. Magic items and spells that boost reflex saves boost initiative as a side effect, but that isn't bad per say.

To better understand the change, let's consider an example.
My lvl 16 dwarf kensai would go from 2 init to 32 init. The same applies to initiators, if they're willing to spend the concentration-to-ref maneuver. Is that a good or a bad thing?

[Fouredged Sword]

To better understand the change, let's consider an example.
My lvl 16 dwarf kensai would go from 2 init to 32 init. The same applies to initiators, if they're willing to spend the concentration-to-ref maneuver. Is that a good or a bad thing?

A skilled master swordsman who focuses on his keen mind and agility and a warrior who has mastered bladework that happens in the blink of an eye though focus and concentration... and they are as likely to strike fist as an average commoner who took a feat to be good at going first.

Yeah, I have no problem with the fix.

[heavyfuel]

To better understand the change, let's consider an example.
My lvl 16 dwarf kensai would go from 2 init to 32 init. The same applies to initiators, if they're willing to spend the concentration-to-ref maneuver. Is that a good or a bad thing?

Good point. Guess just adding base reflex save to init is fairer

[molten_dragon]

BAB to Init or HD to Init

My suggestion would be neither. Just create a new Initiative progression for each class that's either full, 3/4, or 1/2 HD just like BAB. And then you can give each class whatever initiative bonus makes sense. So for the core classes you might go with:

Full Initiative Bonus
Monk
Ranger
Rogue

3/4 Initiative Bonus
Barbarian
Bard
Fighter
Paladin

1/2 Initiative Bonus
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard

[noce]

Good point. Guess just adding base reflex save to init is fairer

Another, more meaningful example, is a wizard taking insightful reflexes.
You obviously do not want a wizard to be even better at initiative than with official rules, so base reflexes could be a good choice.

Though, rogue has good dex and good base ref, while fighter has probably bad dex and bad ref. I feel that adding base ref to init would increase the distance between them and I think this is unwanted.

Maybe just adding BaB is the best thing.

[Quertus]

My suggestion would be neither. Just create a new Initiative progression for each class that's either full, 3/4, or 1/2 HD just like BAB. And then you can give each class whatever initiative bonus makes sense. So for the core classes you might go with:

Full Initiative Bonus
Monk
Ranger
Rogue

3/4 Initiative Bonus
Barbarian
Bard
Fighter
Paladin

1/2 Initiative Bonus
Cleric
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard

Pretty much this.

If I couldn't brew my own, and had to create math using existing variables, I think I'd go with... Hmmm... Class / HD contribution to Reflex Save (hereafter referred to as "Base Reflex Save"), limit (CR / 2)? No, that gives mindless 20 HD zombies a boost to initiative.

Hmmm... 2nd try: (Base Reflex Save - Base Reflex Save of a Wizard of your HD*) x 2, limit CR. This gives Wizards no bonus, and gives Dragons an initiative boost - bug or feature? Oh, but it gives Fighters no bonus, either.

Third try: the larger of (the difference between your BAB and an equal HD Wizard's BAB, or twice the difference between your Base Reflex Save and that of a Wizard of your HD), limited by your CR.

* note that epic progression makes this a penalty for the 40HD Zombie, which I consider a feature.

[Kayblis]

Pretty much this.

If I couldn't brew my own, and had to create math using existing variables, I think I'd go with... Hmmm... Class / HD contribution to Reflex Save (hereafter referred to as "Base Reflex Save"), limit (CR / 2)? No, that gives mindless 20 HD zombies a boost to initiative.

Hmmm... 2nd try: (Base Reflex Save - Base Reflex Save of a Wizard of your HD*) x 2, limit CR. This gives Wizards no bonus, and gives Dragons an initiative boost - bug or feature? Oh, but it gives Fighters no bonus, either.

Third try: the larger of (the difference between your BAB and an equal HD Wizard's BAB, or twice the difference between your Base Reflex Save and that of a Wizard of your HD), limited by your CR.

* note that epic progression makes this a penalty for the 40HD Zombie, which I consider a feature.

I see you hate wizards above all else, but I'd like to remind you Clerics and Druids have Rogue BAB. Contrary to what you seem to think, those classes are way easier to break than a Wizard, for even if you mess up the whole character creation, they're still decent characters. Hell, a Druid is better than most things even without his spellcasting, thanks to his pocket Fighter.

Any change you make based on HD will give monsters a huge advantage. Any change based on saves will favor Dragons. Any "I hate wizards" approach doesn't do much to divine casters. The best I've seen until now is the idea of creating Init bonuses based on class just like BAB, and then give monsters 1/2 or 3/4 CR. Monster-related BAB is usually 3/4 HD, so it makes sense.

Also, shouldn't this be in the Homebrewing board?